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FBI Instructs Wikipedia To Drop FBI Seal
eldavojohn writes "The FBI got in contact with Wikipedia's San Francisco office to inform them they were violating the law in regards to 'unauthorized production' of this seal. The FBI quoted the law as saying, 'Whoever possesses any insignia... or any colorable imitation thereof... shall be fined... or imprisoned... or both.' Wikipedia refused to take the image down and stated that the FBI was misquoting the law. The FBI claims that this production of this image is 'particularly problematic, because it facilitates both deliberate and unwitting violations of restrictions by Wikipedia users.' Wikipedia's lawyer, Mike Godwin (please omit certain jokes), contacted the FBI and asserted, 'We are compelled as a matter of law and principle to deny your demand for removal of the FBI Seal from Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons,' adding that the firm was 'prepared to argue our view in court.' Wikipedia appears to be holding their ground; we shall see if the FBI comes to their senses or proceeds with litigation."
Wikipedia's lawyer Mike Godwin (please omit certain jokes)
Yes, before anybody asks, it is indeed THAT Godwin, for whom the law is named.
"Whoever possesses any insignia... or any colorable imitation thereof... shall be fined... or imprisoned... or both"
Okay so I had to go and look this one up. Because there are so many ...'s that pretty much all of the information is missing. That sentence fracture they chose doesn't even mention any government insignia's, at first I thought ALL insignia's were outlawed.
Anyways, so here's the full deal.
Whoever manufactures, sells, or possesses any badge, identification card, or other insignia, of the design prescribed by the head of any department or agency of the United States for use by any officer or employee thereof, or any colorable imitation thereof, or photographs, prints, or in any other manner makes or executes any engraving, photograph, print, or impression in the likeness of any such badge, identification card, or other insignia, or any colorable imitation thereof, except as authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
Sounds like the law is basically there to stop people from posing as federal agents. Having the Seal on the website might make it easier for people to design replicas (and where better to find information than Wikipedia) but on the other hand, how would I know what an authentic FBI badge looks like if I've never seen it before, so how would I know if I'm dealing with an imposter or not?
Or, better yet, photoshop to these - and caption them as you wish. It expressly states
Or just hotlink to them, along with your choice framed captions :-)
As far as I know there has never been a show that had the actual FBI symbol.
The members of the MPAA have a license to use the FBI seal in the unskippable intros of their DVDs.
NY Times has more. Including links to PDF's of the response. Parts of which are also quite funny: “While we appreciate your desire to revise the statute to reflect your expansive vision of it, the fact is that we must work with the actual language of the statute, not the aspirational version” that the F.B.I. had provided.
Just in case anyone wants to actually read it:
Section 701 of Title 18 of the US Code
Section 709 of Title 18 of the US Code
Section 712 of Title 18 of the US Code
I'm just curious if you read the law. Because it sure reads to me like Wikipedia is in violation of the letter of the law.
The fact is that Wikipedia has a super high resolution print quality and SVG image of the seal which could be used to manufacture fake credentials. This fact might explain why they are going after Wikipedia and not other places. In fact the FBI letters suggests this much.
I guess its easy to just unsubstantiatedly bash our government. At least you didn't start invoking conspiracy theories about this being some first step in the invokation of some quasi martial law state, like some other people have commented.
Initial letter from FBI and response by Wikimedia Foundation
Wikipedia article in question, image in question.
New York Times story (login). Britannica uses the logo
What basis for Wikipedia to keep it up? Really?
As the lawyer for Wikipedia points out in his reply to the FBI:
If you're making a factual statement like "This is the FBI seal", you're not exactly saying "I'm the FBI, fear me". Basically the lawyer thinks the FBI are willfully misreading/misrepresenting a statute to try to get wikipedia to pull something down which they are using as purely a reporting of facts.
He also points out that they're selectively ignoring the words in the statute that circumscribe the applicability of the statute as cited by the FBI.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I'm just curious if you read the law. Because it sure reads to me like Wikipedia is in violation of the letter of the law.
Look at Wikipedia's response, which explains why they believe the FBI to be misinterpreting the letter of the law.
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In Texas all police officer ID's are required to have a telephone number that is available 24.7 to verify the officer's status. I let people see, touch, hold my IDs upon request. However, I would never allow a copy to be made for two big reasons: I don't want to make the ID easier to fake, and I don't want them having my picture, full name, etc to sell to drug cartels.
Also, local/state police IDs are generally look like a 5th grader made it. If the ID looks really nice it is probably a fake.
1. In my experience, yes. The FBI agent I interacted with let me take his badge and look at it to my satisfaction.
2. I didn't try to photo copy his badge, but i doubt he would have cared if i had written down his details.
3. Not believing he's an agent does not make him not an agent and does not absolve you of your responsibilities regarding interacting with law enforcement. Also, you cannot be charged with resisting arrest unless they are arresting you for something already. I knew a guy in college who was arrested for resisting arrest and nothing else. The cop's commanding officer tore the cop apart when he tried to book him just for resisting arrest (my friend was released and the c.o. apologised to him...didn't give him a ride home though).
4. generally you can call the fbi and they can verify the identity of the officer.
How does one deal with authentication issues like that if faced with an Law-Enforcement officer? Sure they can...if they do things right, show you their badge but then what?
1. Do you have a right to actually take that badge and/or ID into your hands to inspect it fully?
2. Can you write the details down or make a scan/photo copy?
3. If you do not believe the ID, the seal or badge (and officer) to be authentically what/who they claim to be, do you still have to do what they say (and can you be charged with, for example, resisting arrest if so)?
4. If 3 is the case, what are the options to verify such ID's, seals etc.?
Darth --
Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
It cites the law the FBI quoted. That does not mean the quoted law applies. They also cite this on the image URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-FBI-ShadedSeal.svg
In order for the FBI law to have bearing, I believe Wiki's defense is that they basically state right on the image page that it is a public domain image, they cite the laws prohibiting specific uses of the image, which pretty much prevents anyone from misunderstanding that their looking at an image of the seal, not the official seal.
U.S.C. 701 would seem to refer to 709 and 712, neither of which would apply here. Wiki is not misrepresenting itself as a government agency (709), or attempting to convey the false impression that such communication is from a department, agency, bureau, or instrumentality of the United States (712).
no, actually I don't think I'd be surprised.. Let me quick copy and paste the most important part, wikipedia's reply.