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Tool Use By Humans Pushed Back By 800,000 Years

gpronger writes "The journal Nature reports that newly discovered tool marks on bones indicates that we were using tools at minimum 800,000 years earlier than previously thought. This places the start of tool use at 3.4 million years ago or earlier. The most likely ancestor in this time frame would be Australopithecus afarensis. The researchers, led by palaeoanthropologist Zeresenay Alemseged of the California Academy of Science, San Francisco,and Shannon McPherron, (an archaeologist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany) state that cut marks on the bones of an impala-sized creature and another closer in size to a buffalo, indicate butchering of the animals by our distant ancestors. However, they do not believe that they were in fact hunters, more likely scavenging the remains left behind by large predators."

55 of 189 comments (clear)

  1. What, from their club days? by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh, wait... wrong Tool.

    (I hate babysitting databases... makes the brain go all squiggly at 2 in the morning. At least now I can stop wondering if they found a fossilized CD player next to the bones...)

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  2. Re:But ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Funny

    How many early humans were tools ...

    Less than the number of internet users who are tools. /s

  3. Tool use is widespread by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Turns out we're not the only animal that uses tools so there's no reason why it would have appeared recently in human evolution. What's more impressive is our ability to design tools to attain a certain objective by using only our imagination (abstract thought) rather than the ability to pick up a rock from the vicinity to carve up a carcass. That's likely much more recent.

    --
    If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    1. Re:Tool use is widespread by c6gunner · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, abstract thought might not be as recent or require as much evolutionary development as is often thought either.

      While I agree that this is a possibility, I think it's rather funny that you're using the behavior of a modern-day chimp as evidence. You do realize that the chimp in that video has had just as much time and "evolutionary development" as we have, don't you?

    2. Re:Tool use is widespread by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good link. I was sitting here thinking about all the tool using animals I've ever heard of. That page pretty much covers them. And, of course, primates pretty much lead the list. There was a story in the last couple years about a band of primates discovering a newer, better way to catch termites from a termite mound. I think they frayed the bit of straw or stick, giving the termites more area to grab hold of. The chimp got more termite chow for the same effort with the improved stick. The interesting bit was, they taught another band how to do the same thing.

      Man may be the most prolific tool user, but he certainly isn't unique.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re: Tool use is widespread by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Turns out we're not the only animal that uses tools so there's no reason why it would have appeared recently in human evolution.

      The only surprise would be if the most recent common ancestor of ourselves and chimps *didn't* use tools, some six million years ago.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Tool use is widespread by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most things that are claimed to be uniquely human are just more sophisticated versions of what other intelligent animals can do. As you point out birds (and chimps) have primative tool designing abilities. Birds and chimps also make elaborate nests by collecting and assembling parts, chimp nests are a kind of bed they build in a tree to sleep at night.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    5. Re:Tool use is widespread by tophermeyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      +1 Insightful

      Chimps might appear to be more primitive than humans, but they are just as evolutionarily distant from our common ancestor as we are. Looking to chimps for evidence of human-like behavior is interesting in that it shows behaviors like tool use are not unique to humans, but is not really indicative of the capabilities of our ancestors. There is nothing really "advanced" about humans, we have simply evolved different capabilities. Remember that pound for pound and average chimp is about 10x stronger than an average human.

      We use our language and thinking skills to develop elaborate cooperative societies. Chimps do this on a smaller scale, but are more than able to beat a human to death in an individual confrontation. You can't really label on as more advanced than the other without understanding the the completely different contexts of our separate evolutions.

    6. Re:Tool use is widespread by gorzek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And then you have species like dolphins, elephants, and pigs--all of which are very intelligent, they just lack the dextrous digits humans have so their ability to manipulate the environment is limited. Elephants are something of an exception due to their trunks, though--they can manipulate tools and perform complex tasks with them.

      We just hit the evolutionary lottery, as it were: opposable thumbs, high intelligence, complex vocal communication, abstract thought, and self-awareness. Those traits can all be found in other species. We're just unique for having the combination and for not losing those traits in favor of others.

    7. Re:Tool use is widespread by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Man may be the most prolific tool user, but he certainly isn't unique.

      But perhaps mankind is unique in our ability to consider ourselves unique, and to be off-put by the revelation that we aren't.

      Also, we may be unique in contemplating the idea of wiping out those other pesky tool-using animals to restore our uniqueness.

      Or maybe that's just my uniqueness. :)

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    8. Re:Tool use is widespread by L3370 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that the chimp in that video has had just as much time and "evolutionary development" as we have, don't you?

      Yeah something like six thousand years. :P

      *removes flamesuit*

  4. And by dimethylxanthine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How long until we learn to use them properly, i.e. mindfully and responsibly?

    ------
    How tool are you today?

    1. Re:And by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      With luck, another 800 000 years.

    2. Re:And by couchslug · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "How long until we learn to use them properly, i.e. mindfully and responsibly? "

      Until Evolution selects for those behaviors.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  5. Good god... by geogob · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...then we've been using tool even before earth, the sky and whatnot were created! What a mind blowing revelation.

    1. Re:Good god... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually it makes you wonder, if the progress to get there took 800000 years, then what happened in the past 10000 is really incredible.

    2. Re:Good god... by JustOK · · Score: 2, Funny

      what the hell is a mediphore?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:Good god... by Evtim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I disagree. What I see is that our civilization behaves like biology does not exists. All the numerous useful facts and predictions of evolution and ecology are constantly and often deliberately kept unintelligible to the general public. Biology is the queen of all sciences, hands down, and it is the most relevant to us as a species. Sure, physics, maths and inorganic chemistry are all very important and necessary foundation, but organic chemistry and biology are the real deal.

      Almost nobody understands evolution properly. I am just back from lunch with my fantastically intelligent colleagues-physicists and they definitely did not know evolution. I mentioned to them that during the domestication of wolves as much as we selected them, they selected us too. They were baffled.

      I said "Imagine that the wolves are coming closer to human settlement. The bravest wolves come the closest and try to pick some left overs. Eventually over time a mutually beneficial system emerges - we feed them, they help us hunting and guarding the settlement. We selected the wolves that are most-human friendly (least afraid of humans) and then encouraged their survival and procreation. All is well. Now, suppose that in the neighboring settlement a behavior "I hate/ I am afraid of wolves/dogs" occurs among the humans (genetically or socially determined or both). Well, this village will not have the benefit of guarding dogs against predators or other humans. They will suffer more casualties than the first village. Over time the difference becomes more and more significant until the "I hate/ I am afraid of dogs" behavior becomes negligibly small or vanishes. The net result - humans selected by wolves...even after this example which is quite clear IMO, I did not see the spark of enlightenment in the colleague's eyes. Even to this people - non religious, highly educated (from three different continents too), "selection" could only be a directed, conscious effort.

      Here is a small story to illustrate:

      The History of the Universe according to me (or why biology is the queen):

      In the beginning it was physics - a set of forces and rules and looooong time. Everything that could happen, happened, so we got stars and most of the elements and all the possible inorganic components between those elements and all the possible products and processes of nuclear physics. That was the first of the "phase spaces" the Universe explored.

      And among the elements there was carbon, which could chain with itself within certain limits of temperature and pressure. And it opened the second of the "phase spaces" - organic chemistry. And it was good, because the number of possible products and reactions was huge compared to inorganic chemistry and nuclear physics. Just the number of different chemical reactions between organic compounds in the "primal soup" of the Earth for a mere millions of years greatly exceeds the number of all atoms in the observable Universe. And since the time scales were still truly vast, anything that could happen, happened. And among the things that happened was the first immortal (but imperfect) replicator making copies of itself from components in its environment. And thus evolution began.

      And once the so-called "nervous systems" of the living beings became so complex as to allow conciseness to emerge, an Observer of the Universe, the third "phase space" was accessible - the "phase space" of the mind, which is not even a material thing (as atoms) but "merely" a process carried out by a living, evolved beings.

      And the complexity, intricacy and relevance (to us) of those phase spaces increases from the first to the second to the third. Thus biology, with its subsets like medicine, ecology, neurological sciences est. is the queen. And thus, it is no small matter at all when people are deliberately kept ignorant of it.

      So, until society smartens up enough, we must challenge ignorance given half a chance. Our very survival is at stake!

    4. Re:Good god... by hawkfish · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree. What I see is that our civilization behaves like biology does not exists.

      There is a quote that I thought was from Illuminatus! that goes:

      There are two rules of human behavior. Rule 1 is "Humans are primates" and rule 2 is "Most humans don't know rule 1."

      but I can't seem to track it down.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
  6. Evolution by onion2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nearly three and a half million years of humans using tools, and I can't even put up a shelf. If you want evidence that evolution isn't all it's cracked up to be, there it is.

    1. Re:Evolution by Finallyjoined!!! · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      --
      If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
    2. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting, listing to a discussion about our version control system and related tooling. Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner. Now I don't know how we do it at all. It all seems so unlikely.

    3. Re:Evolution by bazorg · · Score: 2, Funny

      I thought you were going to say: The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting and all I could think about was butchering carcasses.

    4. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      I thought you were going to say: The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting and all I could think about was butchering carcasses.

      ...of management. Yeah that too.

    5. Re:Evolution by delire · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner.

      The real abstraction you're talking about is post-industrial capitalism. Meat eaters often consider themselves somehow kin to the Great Hunter, that by eating a bloody steak they are somehow closer to the earth and it's mortal realities yet they couldn't be further from it. Rather, they cowardly pay another to kill a sick beast - stoned on antibiotics so that it can actually live and eat corn - on their behalf. I say that as someone that grew up on a farm and often ate what I killed with my own hands.

      Unlike our hunter forebears, people caneat meat every day because of the abstraction of late capitalism. I encourage every meat eater to take the life of the thing they want to eat, at least once in their lives. Look at the beast in the eyes, take its life and then eat parts of its body. A highly valuable dietary - and somehow even spiritual - reality check.

    6. Re:Evolution by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      The other day I was sitting in a release planning meeting, listing to a discussion about our version control system and related tooling. Suddenly I had this thought that we were all just a bunch of apes, manipulating abstractions of abstractions of tools ultimately designed to help us catch our dinner. Now I don't know how we do it at all. It all seems so unlikely.

      But much more importantly: how did the release go?

      So-so

    7. Re:Evolution by chill · · Score: 4, Funny

      You've been thru a Sharepoint deployment, too?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    8. Re:Evolution by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Funny

      As a vegetarian I do it every day, I look that salad right into the eye and put it out of its misery.

    9. Re:Evolution by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe I didn't get the memo, but as far as I know salad shouldn't have an eye.

    10. Re:Evolution by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well then, you should see the teeth on a cucumber...

    11. Re:Evolution by JustOK · · Score: 2, Informative

      potato salads might have eyes.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    12. Re:Evolution by sorak · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe shelves have evolved a defense against being put up. Have you ever considered that?

      I'm thinking of calling it "The IKEA Gene"

    13. Re:Evolution by Urkki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can put up a shelf. But I can't butcher a carcass. Evolution in reverse eh?.

      Sure you can. If you were put naked into the wilderness, surrounded with carcasses and no other food in sight, you'd probably be digging into them with a makeshift stone knife in a matter of hours, especially if you were aware that your life depended on it.

      Don't underestimate the power of knowledge, even if it's just knowledge that something can be done, but not knowing how.

  7. WELL by ciderbrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think we all agree here that this is "just a theory". Despite all that MumboJumbo you call "Science".
    It's only a theory. Like gravity and maths.

    +6 flamebate on other sites, this sort of talk is you know...

  8. "That's likely much more recent" - Really? by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You may be correct, but you have not the slightest evidence to back up that claim. There are many, many other issues to consider, such as environmental pressure or the lack thereof, and the difficulty of abstract thought before there were any abstractions - the bootstrap problem. Our present ability to think of new tools in an environment surrounded by them is not, perhaps, that impressive. The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by asc99c · · Score: 4, Funny

      > The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

      If only they'd patented it!

    2. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by discord5 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The first person to think of trimming a sharp rock for better performance was a genuine innovator.

      Sadly, the word innovation and all the derivative vocabulary that comes with it due to overuse in the latest marketing fodder triggered an image of a caveman named Zog making a sharper rock. When he had finally created this technological marvel the word quickly spread in the local tribal community. The tribe would go out hunting, and those whose rocks didn't meet required sharpness criteria would be considered to be fools clinging to obsolete technology. In a matter of days, Zog had ascended from lowly rockbasher to an expert in the field of innovative hunting.

      Zog had it all: finely cut food from the most tasty animals the local wildlife had to offer, the adoration of the masses, commanding power over the world because of his fearsomely sharp weaponry, and a veritable harem of alluring females. A few weeks after his rise to power though, things weren't looking so great anymore for Zog. Nerg, the foul smelling tribal lunatic, had taken his innovative rocksharpening technique and had improved the process by a factor of 2 by means of sustained repetitive bashing. No longer did Zog have the sharpest rocks in the tribe, and almost instantaneously he lost it all. The masses no longer adored him for they were too busy hunting with Nerg. His power over the world stagnated and eventually had to make way for the sharper weaponry of Nerg. But most important of all, his considerably sized harem of willing females left him for the newer more powerful rocksharpener.

      And that is how the Tribal Patent Orgnanization was formed. Scratched into a cavewall for all eternity we find the worlds first patent: "TPO Issued Patent #00000001 : A technique for sharpening rocks by bashing rocks against eachother.". It includes various drawings on rock sharpening techniques and a vague description of acquiring a harem by the use of these techniques. Unfortunately Zog never got to sue Nerg in a tribal court of law, because Nerg bashed in his skull with an incredibly sharp rock several minutes after filing the patent.

      To this day, Nerg is remembered as the worlds first innovator and harem owner.

      True story!

      (I apologize for the precious time I stole from you to read this, but the code I'm writing right now is slowly killing my brain unless I entertain it a little in small doses. Tune in next comment, when Dorg invents fire and accidentally burns down his cave, and is remembered throughout history as the worlds smartest and most stupid caveman of all time. Don't miss out on how Dorg later also invents insurance fraud.)

    3. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      alleged insurance fraud. It hasn't been proven yet.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    4. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by dan828 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's something people don't seem to get-- mostly I think because our education system is full of little stories about how "stupid" people of the past were for believing something we see as foolish now, or because they didn't have electricity or some such (like knowing how to flip a light switch somehow makes you a genius). People genetically indistinguishable from us lived in the stone age, and their technological know how involved use of natural materials to create what we consider to be crude tools, yet, all in all, those people probably had a great deal more know-how then most people around today. They could make tools, hunt or gather their food, build a fire to cook it, and fashion a shelter to protect themselves from the elements. Most modern people only know how to use tools that others have created and haven't a clue how any of them work.

    5. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by the+phantom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but neither the article nor the post that you responded to have anything to do with Stone Age people who are nearly identical to modern humans on a genetic level. Rather, the article refers to tool use by A. afarensis ("Lucy's" species). This is a rather extraordinary find, as not only was Lucy very different from modern humans (smaller, more gracile in general, smaller brain, &c.), but if Lucy was using tools, then the first evidence of any human ancestor using tools gets pushed back almost a million years.

      As to more primitive peoples having more know-how than modern societies, that depends upon what you mean by "know-how." A primitive hunter-gatherer would have to know how to do everything required by his or her society: hunt for game, gather wild resources, make tools from stone, wood, and other materials, preserve food, &c. They were generalists. Modern societies trade breadth of knowledge for depth of knowledge. Rather than working as jacks-of-all-trades, modern people specialize. They may not have the same breadth of knowledge or ability, but they are able to understand a narrower range of ideas or skills much more deeply. I see this as a qualitative difference in "know-how," rather than a quantitative difference.

    6. Re:"That's likely much more recent" - Really? by the_womble · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree. We know more, there are some things in our social organisation that are better (democracy, vs feudalism, bans on toruture, etc.).

      On the other hand, we can sometimes be worse: we can be cruel and uncarig - which is perhaps why 13th century England had only 188 suicides over a century, whereas the UK currently has about 3,000 a year (a MUCH higher per capita rate even with the roughly 30 fold population growth).

  9. not exactly... by m.shenhav · · Score: 4, Informative

    It should be noted that while human imagination is alright, its in fact failing us most of the time when it comes to technology (as statistics on patents and businesses show). It can be thought of as mutation in the process of cultural evolution.

    People try stuff out and see what works, often discovering a very different application then originally intended or finding the thing useless. This is selection.

    It is the accurate transmission (or in evolution terms reproduction) of complex multi-step tool production methods that allows for cumulative cultural evolution. This kind of thing is hard to prove for animals- but there are chimpanzee troops with multi-step tool production.

    The recombination of such behaviors/tools/ideas is accelerating the process even further, which is why technological evolution is accelerating while genetically we haven't changed that much (conjecture!). In fact we have not so distant relatives (so called Boskop man) that had larger average cranial volume.

  10. Did the author sleep through Anthro 101? by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even non-hominids use implements like rocks and sticks. Tools are specifically fabricated or altered: what's important about tools is not that they are used but that they are made. Unless we find the rocks they used and see whether they were flaked by the hominids or just found already sharp, we can't call these "tools".

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  11. Pushed back again? by OglinTatas · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tool use by humans pushed back again, and by 800,000 years? I can't wait that long. I have to fix my brakes this weekend.

  12. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by dingen · · Score: 3, Informative

    Homo Sapiens are around for about 500,000 years, but what they're talking about in this article are our ancestors of human-like primates, of which some species are tens of millions of years old.

    --
    Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
  13. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2, Insightful

    sharpens Occam's Razor

    Or, perhaps, they misinterpreted toothmarks left by serrated predator teeth as toolmarks, chose to stick with their hypothesis in the light of an overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary, thereby planting themselves firmly in the crackpot camp, and THEN lost their jobs?

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  14. Re:Maybe if they were more honest by m.ducharme · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe they're not being dishonest; maybe they're being mindful of the fact that setting up precise boundaries between these different species is not as simple as you think. What precisely makes for a different species? The human-like species would have been very closely related genetically, and in some cases may have been able to interbreed naturally. So are they different species, or sub-species of the same species? Don't be fooled by the simple nomenclature system into thinking that species taxonomy is a simple thing.

    --
    Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
  15. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by tarpitcod · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The age that humans essentially similar to ourselves walked this planet is constantly pushed back. We now discover tool use nearly a million years earlier than previously thought. Yet for some it takes real temerity to suggest that possibly significant civilizations may have existed earlier in history. The best places to look would actually be in high orbit, the Moon or the Lagrange points between the Sun and Earth. The Moon is particularly good, due to lack of weather (We saw how the dust storms affected the Mars rovers!) If we were all (99%) killed by a viral epidemic next year and civilization fell, it would be extremely hard to find significant traces of us just 30K years later. I still think that survivors, even if they fell back to 'bash things with stones' tool use might re-achieve our level of civilization. Likewise, since I'll give future humans that chance, I'd entertain that maybe we aren't the first who had a significant globe-spanning civilization and something went wrong. Either of these possibilities really makes the argument that Hawking has been espousing much stronger. If we aren't the only civilization then we are rare. If we aren't then civilizations must rise and fall fairly frequently. Either way we need to get humanity established elsewhere, and someone should be thinking hard about what to send back to earth /leave here to help the lower level of civilization re-climb the ladder.

  16. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Concluding that a mark on a dinosaur bone was from butchering would be suspect without evidence of the tools themselves in the same strata, would it not?

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  17. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it just my imagination or has there been a sharp increase over the last decade in the number of people willing to swallow anything that comes in the form of an anti-science conspiracy theory.

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  18. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by chichilalescu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "real scientist"? I know them. they're the guys with intelligent design and "LHC is gonna kill us all", right?

    --
    new sig
  19. Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoganda by shaitand · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The earliest known tool use was to carve up a tasty critter. Hopefully this puts an end to the myth that the natural diet for humans is vegetarian.

    By all means make your personal choice for whatever reasons. Just don't pretend its the rest of us who are acting in a manner contrary to our nature.

  20. Re:Depressing by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it just me or is this a bit depressing. Before it was look at all we've accomplished in the past 2.5 million years, now it has become: it's taken 3.4 million years to get to where we are?

    But look at how fast we're preogressing now. I'm 58, looking back at my childhood, things were really primitive back then. A computer was a multimillion dollar building sized machine that your cell phone is now more powerful than. All telephones had cords and dials, there were no microwave ovens, color TV was a rarity, no VCRs, No GPS, no ABS or air bags in cars, no remote controls (some TVs had them, but they were likewise rare and expensive). Medicine was incredibly primitive; they used automotive starting fluid as an anasthetic, and let me tell you, that stuff is nightmarish.

    No lasers, no integrated circuts (TVs still used tubes), no fuel injection except in race cars, no satellites except the moon; no space travel at all (I remember when the Russians scared the hell out of us by shooting Yuri Gagarin into space). No robots, no cordless tools... the list is seemingly endless.

    I'm living in a push-button science-fiction world. It's just that there wasn't that much progress in times past.

  21. Re:Humans existed 800,000 years ago? by chris+mazuc · · Score: 4, Informative

    Off Amazon, order a book called the Hidden History of the Human Race (The Condensed Edition of Forbidden Archeology)

    No, please don't.

    The Hidden History of the Human Race is a frustrating book. The motivation of the authors, "members of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, a branch of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness" (p. xix), is to find support in the data of paleoanthropology and archaeology for the Vedic scriptures of India. Their methods are borrowed from fundamentalist Christian creationists (whom they assiduously avoid citing). They catalog odd "facts" which appear to conflict with the modern scientific understanding of human evolution and they take statements from the work of conventional scholars and cite them out of context to support some bizarre assertion which the original author would almost certainly not have advocated. Cremo and Thompson regard their collection of dubious facts as "anomalies" that the current paradigm of paleoanthropology cannot explain. Sadly, they offer no alternative paradigm which might accommodate both the existing data and the so-called anomalies they present; although they do indicate that a second volume is planned which will relate their "extensive research results" to their "Vedic source material" (p. xix). Kuhn noted that "To reject one paradigm without simultaneously substituting another is to reject science itself" (1970, p. 79); and that is precisely what Cremo and Thompson do. They claim that "mechanistic science" is a "militant ideology, skillfully promoted by the combined effort of scientists, educators, and wealthy industrialists, with a view towards establishing worldwide intellectual dominance" (p. 196).

    [ ... ]

    Cremo and Thompson's claim that anatomically modern Homo sapiens sapiens have been around for hundreds of millions of years is an outrageous notion. Accepting that there is a place in science for seemingly outrageous hypotheses (cf. Davis, 1926) there is no justification for the sort of sloppy rehashing of canards, hoaxes, red herrings, half-truths and fantasies Cremo and Thompson offer in the service of a religious ideology. Readers who are interested in a more credible presentation of the overwhelming evidence for human evolution should consult Ian Tattersall's wonderful recent book The Fossil Trail: how we know what we think we know about human evolution.

    --
    E pluribus unum
  22. Re:Hopefully this puts an end to the vegan propoga by MozeeToby · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'd think the existence of canine and incisor teeth in humans would be enough to convince any reasonable person that were are evolved to be omnivorous.