Fire and Explosion At Hydrogen Station Near Rochester Airport

RossR writes "There was a hydrogen fire and explosion at a renewable fuel station used by government vehicles near Rochester's airport. The nearby freeway and airport were closed resulting in diverted flights. This may the first major incident at a hydrogen vehicle refueling station. GM has their major fuel cell development center nearby, in the town of Honeoye Falls. The fire occurred when the 18-wheeler tractor truck was transferring hydrogen to the station. The airport press conference reported that airport firefighters responded first and initially waited on the scene deciding how to respond. No news yet if the hard to see flames of hydrogen combustion contributed to this delay. The fueling station is also adjacent to a NY State Trooper station, and a firefighting training facility is a few blocks away." RossR also provides a Police/FD Radio transcript. Luckily, no one was killed, and only two injured, including the driver.

Comments

God damn it...

[boneclinkz]

Now I need to go the whole way to Buffalo to top off my Zeppelin.

Obligatory

[bigredradio]

Oh the humanity...

Like there's never been a GAS STATION fire

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone will probably try to use this to say hydrogen is dangerous. I'd like to remind you gasoline is dangerous

Re:Like there's never been a GAS STATION fire

[amicusNYCL]

And that's why gasoline stations blow up every day, right?

How many consecutive days have hydrogen stations exploded? What are we up to now, one?

Re:Like there's never been a GAS STATION fire

[arth1]

You really think that if it had been a gasoline tanker that blew up, the damages would have been even lighter?

This accident goes a long way towards showing how safe hydrogen is compared to the alternatives. Despite the much higher energy per volume, the damage caused is less, because of the WAY it explodes: When the oxygen in the air around the hydrogen is used up (which is almost immediately), there's no way for it to burn, and the much lighter than air gas rises up until it finds more oxygen to react with.

Which is why the truck driver is still alive. I am quite certain he wouldn't have been if this had been gasoline, propane or ethanol.

Re:Like there's never been a GAS STATION fire

[SETIGuy]

Have you had your bottled water tested for MTBE? You might not like the results. Your tap water is continuously monitored for that and some other substances. Bottled water plants are not tested very often, because they are run by people who would rather not spend money, and testing takes time and money. And the rule for bottled water is if (the last time the plant was tested) it would be acceptable as tap water, then you can sell it. Most of them are just selling tap water anyway. The filter is the better choice, especially for children if there is significant lead in the water. But for adults, city tap water is just fine. The only thing the filter will do is it might make it taste better by getting rid of minerals. In cities with good water, a filter might make the water taste worse by getting rid of minerals.

What is the idea

[Moryath]

with calling Hydrogen "renewable fuel"? It still has to be generated - and most of the energy we use to extract Hydrogen comes from burning fossil fuels.

Now, if we could get electric generation down to solar/wind/geothermal/nuclear (and we NEED nuclear, because there's no way solar/wind/geothermal can equate to even 25% of our current use, let alone what increased population will need), maybe. But it's still lossy as fuck making hydrogen.

Re:What is the idea

[BradleyUffner]

Yes, it's hard to make someone with less than an 8th grade understanding of science realize that hydrogen is a storage medium, not an energy source. That, sadly, leaves out a good bit of the US - and I suspect a large fraction of the rest of the world's population as well.

By that logic there was only ever one energy source in existence, the Big Bang. Even the sun is just a huge ball of hydrogen and few other things that was all created long ago and will one day run out.

Re:What is the idea

[natehoy]

This term, "renewable", you keep using it, I do no think it means what I think you think it means.

A "renewable" fuel is a fuel that we can make more of when we need it. It doesn't mean it's something we have to find in a ready state in nature. Hydrogen IS renewable. 100% renewable. We can make shitloads more of it, and you can't differentiate manufactured hydrogen from the stuff you'd find if we ever found it.

Unfortunately, renewable does not mean readily-available. It just means we can make more. All we need is an energy source. And that is the problem with hydrogen.

Hydrogen is, in essence, a battery with infinite recharges. You can separate it from water all day long, then burn it and re-integrate it with oxygen and have water again. It just takes shitloads of energy to separate it.

Hydrogen is not a freely-available fuel in any quantities that make a difference, but it is a completely renewable one. It is not, has never been, and will never be an energy source, but no renewable fuels are energy sources. They are ways to store energy in such a way that it can be practically used for fuel. You still need the energy.

Re:What is the idea

[rujholla]

A "renewable" fuel is a fuel that we can make more of when we need it. It doesn't mean it's something we have to find in a ready state in nature. Hydrogen IS renewable. 100% renewable. We can make shitloads more of it, and you can't differentiate manufactured hydrogen from the stuff you'd find if we ever found it.

By your definition gasoline is also a renewable fuel source. CO2 can be combined with hydrogen and oxygen to build hydrocarbons. The simpler the hydrocarbon the easier it is, but once you have methane it is just more steps to more complex hydrocarbons. It just a matter of how much energy you are willing to spend to create it.

Piss poor planning

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out the hydrogen refueling facility was adjacent to an oxygen storage facility.

The zoning board is currently in hot water over this mistake.

Re:Burger King worker?

[Disgruntled Goats]

Considering the usual size of a BK worker, I'd be more worried about the ground being hurt if she fell out of the window.

Re:Geeze

[Shakrai]

Let me help them with that:

CNN: Look at this fancy floating pie chart that looks like something out of Star Wars! We are sleek and modern! You want to watch us! Oh, and there was an explosion today in Rochester....
MSNBC: Hydrogen fueling facility explodes. Tune in tonight for Countdown as Keith Olbermann explains why this is really George W. Bush's fault.
Fox: Hydrogen fueling facility explodes. Are the socialist policies of Barack Hussein Obama and Nancy Pelosi to blame?
Local news: Hydrogen fueling facility explodes on [street]. No word yet on damage or casualties. In other news, please tune in to the end of our broadcast to find out how [common household product] could be KILLING YOUR FAMILY.
Slashdot today: Fire and explosion At Hydrogen Station Near Rochester Airport
Slashdot one week from now: Fire and explosion At Hydrogen Station Near Rochester Airport
Slashdot one month from now: Fire and explosion At Hydrogen Station Near Rochester Airport

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[Rei]

Oh, but hydrogen doesn't explode or even burn! Half a million slashdotters insisted as much, and profusely insisted that the Hindenburg really burned because of a "thermite" or "rocket fuel" skin. ;)

The reality is that hydrogen is an exceedingly flammable gas, much moreso than hydrocarbons, with 1/10th the ignition energy required many times the fuel-air combustible mixture range, and -- unlike hydrocarbons -- readily undergoes deflagration-to-detonation transitions in unconfined spaces. It's also extremely prone to leaks, burns largely clear, and tends to pool in fuel-air mixtures underneath overhangs. To top it all off, it's stored under immense pressure.

Re:Ouch

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Too soon?

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and if you inhale dihydrogen monoxide at room temperature, the effects can be lethal!

Look, if you want to store energy, there's going to be some energy in whatever you store it in. Gasoline burns pretty readily as well, explodes in confined spaces and it has this annoying tendency to pool around ground level when it's leaked rather than going up into the atmosphere. (It's also carcinogenic, unlike hydrogen). Diesel fuel doesn't explode, but it still burns, and worse, it doesn't evaporate at room temperature so when spilled, it stays there drastically reducing friction on the road surface until something washes it off. Lithium batteries can cause some nasty, difficult-to-extinguish fires. Nuclear fuel rods... well..

There's no perfectly safe way to store a bunch of energy. I don't think it's possible even in theory.

Where are the stats???

[gurps_npc]

I would love to know if this is newsworthy, unfortunately, they did not give us the important details. For example, what percentage of gasoline stations have fires in any year, and how many other hydrogen refueling stations of this type exist. Without that information we have no idea if this is a far greater risk or a far lesser risk.

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[meerling]

Yep, I even know someone that has a nasty scar on his arm from when a mainspring blew and slashed him.

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[lgw]

Look, if you want to store energy, there's going to be some energy in whatever you store it in.

Hydrogen gas, however, is a particular pain in the ass. It eats through rubber seals, and the energy density (at STP) is so low that you have to store it at immense pressure to be useful for transportation.

Storing hydrogen as a metal hydride with catalyzed release is a very different story, and might be one of the safest means of high density energy storage. I hope work on that technology is progressing (despise the fact that Bush once endorsed it), as it could well become the "magic battery" we've been looking for.

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[FooAtWFU]

I hope work on that technology is progressing (despise the fact that Bush once endorsed it),

See? SEE?! This is what happens when we politicize Science to Hell and back: some unpopular politician endorses it and we assume by default that this is grounds to discredit it. This is Slashdot, people. Evaluating the merits of the technology irrespective of politics should be the rule and not the exception.

Where are our values?

Re:Geeze

[dkleinsc]

You left out the more reputable news outlets:

Comedy Central: A hydrogen fueling station exploded, forming a huge *bleep* fireball! The most likely cause: Bears.

Onion News Network: Dick Cheney claimed responsibility for the destruction of a hydrogen fueling station. "After spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives getting the oil in Iraq, I didn't want those stupid hippies coming up with a cheap and safe alternative," said Cheney in a press conference this morning.

Re:Burger King worker?

[RossR]

The press conference said she had ear pain.

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[lennier]

Where are our values?

I don't know, but we'll find them when we find our keys.

Re:A close call but we made it this time

[Rei]

1) CNG is much safer than hydrogen -- lower pressures, much greater ignition energy req, much narrower fuel-air burn ratios, no DTD transition in unconfined spaces, no metal fatigue, no seeping through almost anything, etc.

2) CNG vehicles *are* a lot less save than gasoline vehicles. Even with how limited use it's gotten so far, there are tons of reports of huge CNG-vehicle accidents (mainly on CNG busses). Here's what happens when a CNG car burns versus a gasoline car. Several cars were burned by arson here. Tell me if you can spot which one was CNG. ;)