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It's Official — AMD Will Retire the ATI Brand

J. Dzhugashvili writes "A little over four years have passed since AMD purchased ATI. In May of last year, AMD took the remains of the Canadian graphics company and melded them into a monolithic products group, which combined processors, graphics, and platforms. Now, AMD is about to take the next step: kill the ATI brand altogether. The company has officially announced the move, saying it plans to label its next generation of graphics cards 'AMD Radeon' and 'AMD FirePro,' with new logos to match. The move has a lot to do with the incoming arrival of products like Ontario and Llano, which will combine AMD processing and graphics in single slabs of silicon."

33 of 324 comments (clear)

  1. Great news by mangu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "The move has a lot to do with the incoming arrival of products like Ontario and Llano, which will combine AMD processing and graphics in single slabs of silicon."

    Good. Getting rid of the PCI-e bus between CPU and GPU is one important step in getting massive parallelism to work well.

    Since we hit the 3 GHz barrier, where the speed of light itself becomes a limit, putting the processing elements physically closer is essential to get better performance. Now let's see them put 4 GB or so of fast RAM on the same chip.

    1. Re:Great news by mangu · · Score: 5, Informative

      With a 3 GHz clock, a signal at the speed of light travels 10 cm during one clock cycle. This means that if a chip needs data from another and there's a distance of five centimeters or more between both chips the data will not arrive in the same clock cycle.

    2. Re:Great news by data2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So with current die-sizes of about 146mm^2, assuming it's really square, we have a maximum length of about 1.7cm. Sounds like we can go up to 9Ghz, at least if we are just using the speed of light in vacuum.

    3. Re:Great news by bertok · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah, 3ghz doesn't come close to the light speed barrier. i think the issue is more from heat dissipation and electron bleed...

      moving the gpu on-die will fix the latency associated with the pci-e bus, but it's not because of the reasons you seem to believe

      Want to bet?

      At 3 GHz, light moves just 7.2 cm, given a typical upper range for the velocity factor of copper of 0.72. Silicon and fibre optics are usually worse, with a VF between 0.4 and 0.6, or between 4 and 6cm per clock. That's barely enough to traverse a CPU die, let alone the motherboard. Moving parts physically closer together has a lot to do with the speed of light!

    4. Re:Great news by mangu · · Score: 4, Informative

      we have a maximum length of about 1.7cm. Sounds like we can go up to 9Ghz, at least if we are just using the speed of light in vacuum.

      Assuming the signals travel in a straight line. If you look at current motherboards and video cards, you'll notice that many of the copper traces are "wiggly", not straight. That is done in order to get bits in parallel buses to arrive at the same time, and conductor traces on the chips must be designed similarly, it's the longest distance that any of the bits must travel that limits the others.

      Besides, there are capacitance and inductance effects to be considered. Transitions from one to zero and vice-versa aren't instantaneous and that must be taken into account.

      One could say that 9 GHz would be the absolute physical limit for a 1.7 cm chip and the technical limit is somewhat lower than that.

      For a set of chips on a board, the absolute physical limit is much lower, and that's the reason why on-chip cache memory has become so important lately.

    5. Re:Great news by Knuckles · · Score: 5, Informative

      Reading comprehension fail. Nobody said that you can't go above 3 GHz for the CPU, but that if you do, if a chip needs data from another and there's a distance of five centimeters or more between both chips the data will not arrive in the same clock cycle

      --
      "When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
    6. Re:Great news by dylan_- · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? So when did we all get to using optical interconnects? Electricity doesn't travel at the speed of light.

      We're not, but even if we were, that's the fundamental limit. Electricity traveling slower than this makes the problem worse.

      And even if it did, for your random, uninformed postulation to be true

      You've clearly misunderstood his post, so adding insults just makes you look foolish.

      we would need evidence that chips could not practically run faster than 3GHz. Unfortunately for you, that is not the case.

      No we wouldn't. If it can't be done in one clock cycle, it'll be done in two (or more). Who said anything about this limiting clock speed?

      Anyway, at a higher clock speed, the problem becomes even more pronounced. With a 3.8 GHz clock, a signal at the speed of light only travels 7.9 cm during one clock cycle (but let's estimate about 6.5 cm for electricity).

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    7. Re:Great news by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 4, Informative

      Want to bet?

      At 3 GHz, light moves just 7.2 cm, given a typical upper range for the velocity factor of copper of 0.72. Silicon and fibre optics are usually worse, with a VF between 0.4 and 0.6, or between 4 and 6cm per clock. That's barely enough to traverse a CPU die, let alone the motherboard. Moving parts physically closer together has a lot to do with the speed of light!

      I really would mod this informative, since I was about to make a similar point. I think a lot of the confusion is that people hear things like the Speed of Light in terms of Kilometers per second, and it gets filed away by the brain as inconsequential for scales which are measured in centimeters and MUCH smaller.

      But when you realize that that scale which is only a factor measured in millions meters per second is being divided into segments that are fractions of billionths of a second, the speed of light manifests in a much more physically understandable term.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    8. Re:Great news by mangu · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There's an anecdote that admiral Grace Hopper gave "nanoseconds" as gifts:

      "Although she was an interesting and competent speaker, the most memorable part of these talks was her illustration of a nanosecond. She salvaged an obsolete Bell System 25 pair telephone cable, cut it to 11.8 inch (30 cm) lengths (which is the distance that light travels in one nanosecond) and handed out the individual wires to her listeners"

      I've also read about someone else giving out "picoseconds" in the form of tiny mustard seeds to illustrate how much the speed of light limits data processing.

    9. Re:Great news by RossumsChild · · Score: 3, Informative

      As one of my electrical engineering professors was fond of saying: "What is the speed of light? As far as you're concerned, it's nine inches per nanosecond."

    10. Re:Great news by Antisyzygy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree. I think that Intel will have to either seriously step up their graphics production or make nice with Nvidia and try to offer some joint solution. AMD is going to beat Intel to the punch here in starting a trend. I have no doubt developers will use some clever tricks to get the most out of the combination.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  2. Wil this affect open source drivers by La+Gris · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are there any deeper changes to come behind the re-brand? ATi involved in producing open source drivers ans specs for their GPU. Will this name change carry some bad news about the current openness?

    --
    Léa Gris
    1. Re:Wil this affect open source drivers by Ironhandx · · Score: 5, Informative

      ATI really only started doing that after they were acquired by AMD so I wouldn't worry too much.

  3. Re:Let The Confustion Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    What confusion?

    As you said, there are two physical CPUs, one from each manufacturer, in that computer. Where's the confusion?

  4. Re:Let The Confustion Begin by CubicleView · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can't wait to sort out the confused people around me thinking there are two physical CPUs

    I'd imagine that the only people who care to hear about the internals of your computer (if any) will be able to figure it out for themselves.

  5. fglrx by leathered · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ..can they retire that too? please?

    --
    For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
    1. Re:fglrx by MostAwesomeDude · · Score: 5, Informative

      fglrx support for r500 and earlier (anything before the HD lines) is already delegated to the open-source drivers. We're working on getting r800 (redwood) support for acceleration together, and r600 support is getting better by the day.

      --
      ~ C.
  6. Re:Let The Confustion Begin by Lliam33 · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, there are two logos, as seen in the article. One with an "AMD Radeon" logo for discrete cards and one with just "Radeon Graphics" for PC makers building Intel-based systems.

  7. Re:That's retarded. by dingen · · Score: 3, Informative

    AMD is actually a much older brand than ATI.

    --
    Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
  8. Little bit of hate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    In May of last year, AMD took the remains of the Canadian graphics company and melded them into a monolithic products group, which combined processors, graphics, and platforms. Now, AMD is about to take the next step: kill the ATI brand altogether.

    Oh, please, J. Dzhugashvili, don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel. What'd the rejected original form of this summary look like?

    In May of last year, the poor, innocent Canadian angels of technology, ATI, had their very remains tortured and raped by the evil, evil AMD, cruelly melded into a hideous abomination of a monolithic products group, creating an unholy, soulless combination of processors, graphics, and platforms. Now, the faceless anti-christ forces of AMD plan to take the next step in their plans to destroy all that is good in the world: Slaughter the angelic ATI brand altogether, laughing with sadistic glee as it begs for mercy in a futile appeal to the quickly-evaporating last shreds of AMD's humanity and compassion, ATI having never having harmed a fly in its too-short, sad, sad life.

  9. Classic example of not reading the article... by maweki · · Score: 5, Informative

    because it states "The badges you see above will be used for systems with discrete Radeon and FirePro graphics cards. The lower row omits the AMD logo, so PC makers shipping Intel-based systems will be able to avoid the oil-and-water combo of Intel and AMD branding, if they wish."

  10. It's not light speed by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 3, Informative

    But propagation speed is a signficant fraction of C. (66 to 96 percent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity ) Admittedly you've got a point, they've already gotten past 3GHZ. (I'm just wondering how much faster they can get before signal speed is actually the limiting factor.)

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    1. Re:It's not light speed by bradley13 · · Score: 3, Informative

      If the propagation speed of an electrical signal is .96C in an uninsulated chunk of copper and only .66C in a coaxial cable, what is it reduced to in an on-chip environment? On a computer bus? I have seen the figure .33C, but I can't find any primary source for this.

      Let's assume the 0.33C for the moment, and consider what this means. A CPU contains some fairly large functional units that need to be run synchronously - meaning that all transistors within the unit switch are synchronized by a master clock signal. If this is to work, the propagation delay across the unit must be significantly less than 1/2 of a clock cycle. Taking .33C figure as correct, and limiting delay to 1/4 of a clock cycle, the maximum size of a functional unit is about 8mm. This is not far removed from the size of structure on modern CPU chips. You can make functional units accept larger delays (that's one application of pipelines), but this carries the price of complexity.

      The point: power consumption is an important problem, but signal propagation is also very relevant. If 3GHz isn't the limit, from a signal propagation point of view, it is not so far away from that limit...

      Here's a chart showing how the race to ever-faster processors came to a screeching halt a few years ago.

      --
      Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  11. Re:Let The Confustion Begin by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The confusion is that most regular people are only marginally aware of an AMD/Intel distinction, although don't know what it means, and don't know at all ATI or nVidia.

    Fixed that for you.

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  12. Opportunity knocking for AMD here... by Qubit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...AMD's prepping for their integrated CPU/GPU launch. ...
    I would image that better Linux drivers might come down the pipeline, though...they'd definitely loose out on a potential market if they completely ignored the issue.

    I'd go one step further and say that I think that AMD has an opportunity to highlight their hardware here.

    Intel's CPUs and integrated graphics have long had great support in the Linux kernel. Because Intel controls the tech, they can actually provide the correct and full source for the graphics drivers. The problem is that Intel integrated graphics aren't ever anything special.

    If AMD is seriously working on integrating their graphics cards and processors -- perhaps even onto the same die -- then they have an opportunity to provide a much more powerful, integrated hardware platform with fully-open drivers. Intel can't compete with that kind of setup, especially as NVidea appears to have an aversion to opening the source to their graphics card drivers.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
  13. Re:Justice Department on vacation since 1980 by Murdoch5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This was a great merg. This merg lead to the first decent Ati drivers being created on the Linux side. If this wouldn't of happened then how much longer would ATI of survived. They basicly said FU to Linux and ignored it. Great Merg.

  14. Radeon outlasts ATI by Hadlock · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's interesting that the Radeon brand, or series at least, has outlived it's creator. Who will be there to give away Radeon to it's new life partner?

    Something old (AMD), Something new (Radeon), Something borrowed (x86 architecture), Something blue (Intel?)

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
  15. Re:Justice Department on vacation since 1980 by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We went from there being two manufacturers of processors & two manufacturers of usable graphics hardware... to there being two manufacturers of processors & two manufacturers of usable graphics hardware. Not sure what you're thinking there was for the Justice Department to stop.

    --
    Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
  16. Re:Justice Department on vacation since 1980 by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    We went from there being two manufacturers of processors & two manufacturers of usable graphics hardware... to there being two manufacturers of processors & two manufacturers of usable graphics hardware.

    AMD bought ATI. Four companies became three.

    The lines between CPU and GPU will blur.

    Fewer companies does not mean more competition. Less competition means we get fucked.

    If you still need clarification, contact me offline and I'll explain it with charts.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  17. Re:WTF how is this offtopic? by Antisyzygy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know what you are talking about. I have had just as many Nvidia problems as ATI in the past. Currently, I have no ATI driver problems.

    --
    That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  18. Re:Retired ati a long time ago.. by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I bought an nVidia 7200 in my laptop and have it explode out of warranty. No way was I going to buy another nVidia.

  19. Red or green? by cerelib · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Without the red ATI logo, will they continue to use red as the brand color of their graphics products? Or, will people now be choosing between AMD green and Nvidia green? It may sound superficial (because, by definition, it is), but rival groups always seem to have different colors. It makes for a nice mental distinction when looking at their products. My only guess is that it will probably look like the "AMD Vision" logo or might even be an extension of that branding.

  20. Re:Let The Confustion Begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The confusion is that most regular people bla bla bla I want my banana bla bla.

    Fixed that for you.