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Fine-Structure Constant Maybe Not So Constant

Kilrah_il writes "The fine-structure constant, a coupling constant characterizing the strength of the electromagnetic interaction, has been measured lately by scientists from the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia and has been found to change slightly in light sent from quasars in galaxies as far back as 12 billion years ago. Although the results look promising, caution is advised: 'This would be sensational if it were real, but I'm still not completely convinced that it's not simply systematic errors' in the data, comments cosmologist Max Tegmark of MIT. Craig Hogan of the University of Chicago and the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., acknowledges that 'it's a competent team and a thorough analysis.' But because the work has such profound implications for physics and requires such a high level of precision measurements, 'it needs more proof before we'll believe it.'"

19 of 105 comments (clear)

  1. first constant post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    we need more research to tell if this is first or not.

    1. Re:first constant post by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      this should get at least a +1 funny (:

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    2. Re:first constant post by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Funny

      we need more research to tell if this is first or not.

      I am unable to reproduce your results.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

  2. Don't Hold Your Breath by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't the first time that some team has claimed this. Around 2000, someone made the same claim. I recall it not standing up when other teams checked it.

    Measurements like this have been done before and usually show a constant, er, constant to within experimental uncertainty.

    Note, for example, this paragraph buried at the end of the article:

    Nonetheless, the study “is as speculative as the previous claims,” asserts Patrick Petitjean of the Institute of Astrophysics in Paris, whose team has looked for variations in the fine-structure constant with the Very Large Telescope as far back as about 11.5 billion years ago and found none (SN: 4/8/04, p. 301).

    In other words, I wouldn't get excited at all yet.

    1. Re:Don't Hold Your Breath by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 2, Informative

      If it varied at all, the result would be significant just on principle. It would mean that the laws of physics have varied in time, which is not something that most current models allow for. (At least, not that I've heard. I work on something a little closer to home, so I might have missed something.)

    2. Re:Don't Hold Your Breath by Zocalo · · Score: 5, Informative
      The fine structure constant is given as being equal to "e^2/hc", so if the FSC is not a constant then one (or more) of the other values must also be a variable. Take your pick between:

      If any of those constants turned out to in fact be variable, or even a "constant" which has varied over the lifetime of the universe, then the implications would be profound to say the least.

      --
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    3. Re: Don't Hold Your Breath by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Funny

      The fine structure constant is given as being equal to "e^2/hc", so if the FSC is not a constant then one (or more) of the other values must also be a variable.

      Or maybe the "2" is changing?

      Not mathematically, but 1.999--> 2.001 or such.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    4. Re:Don't Hold Your Breath by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      the farther you look up, the farther you can see things going over your head

    5. Re: Don't Hold Your Breath by symbolset · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait, there's also the operators "^" and "/" to consider. Maybe those are the variables.

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      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    6. Re:Don't Hold Your Breath by Idarubicin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, it is possible to work in fundamental units in which hbar = c = 1, so the latter two can be considered constant by definition.

      Oh, so close -- you just needed to look up one more Wikipedia article to get a hint about why your reasoning is faulty. There are indeed systems of so-called natural units which assign a constant value of 1 to certain physical units. Yes, there are systems which define c and h-bar as 1, but there are also systems which define e to be exactly 1.

      Inconveniently, merely asserting a definition doesn't actually compel obedience on the part of the Universe. If I work in Stoney units, then I define e and c to be constant, so h-bar must be changing if the fine structure constant changes. In Schrodinger units, e and h-bar are constants, and c must be changing. The natural-unit systems only work properly if the assumption of constancy of their chosen fundamental constants is correct.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  3. A link to the paper itself by nyri · · Score: 3, Informative

    Evidence for spatial variation of the fine structure constant

    An evaluation from a practicing physicist would be appreciated.

    1. Re:A link to the paper itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's just say that if called upon to review this paper I would have a lot of comments on techniques and assumptions. They are also sending it to a journal where it is likely they will find reviewers who don't understand the details of the instruments used.

      I'm not saying its definitely wrong, but it definitely needs a peer review cycle or two before publication. If published in this form, the editor will get some "feedback" on the editorial process. Longer term, I and a lot of other people would like to see confirmation from independent groups using independent instrumentation before we put too much effort into explaining an effect that might not exist.

      Posting anonymously so I won't be excluded from the review pool for having opinions.

    2. Re:A link to the paper itself by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Wow. Check out Figure 5. It's hard to believe there's any systematic signal in their data, they have blue and red points mixed up all over the sky. They claim there's an excess of one color in one hemisphere and the other color in the other hemisphere, but it's not very strong signal at all. This isn't my field (I work on Saturn's rings), but my first reaction is amazement that this is serious enough to be talking to the press about.

      (I'm also more than a little put off by the fact that this hasn't been accepted, evidently, merely submitted to a journal. And not even an astrophysical journal like AJ or ApJ which seem like a far better fit for this subject matter and the audience.)

    3. Re:A link to the paper itself by Inthewire · · Score: 3, Funny

      They seem to be in good shape. Thank you for your efforts.

      --


      Writers imply. Readers infer.
  4. "The Economist" article by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Informative

    This week's "The Economist" has a good article on this: http://www.the-economist.com/node/16930866

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  5. Repeating ourselves are we by Gruturo · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ok, I guess 9 years is acceptable for a dupe, and tbh I didn't even read the article, in /.'s finest tradition, so it might be an actual new development :-)

    Kinda sure there was some piece of news on the subject from around 2005-2006 too, but can't find it atm. Meh, google-fu weak at 3am, should sleep, work in under 5 hours.

    --

    Vacuum cleaners suck. Kings rule.
  6. Re:What exactly is varying? by mburns · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Writing as an outside critic of academic physics, I am still very appreciative of the old paper by Max Planck on the constants of physics. The paper is a prime part of relativity theory (the theory of invariants as it is better termed).

    The speed of light, the Planck constant, the gravitational constant, the magnetic constant, and the Boltzmann constant serve to define units of measurement. So any variation of those constants only reduces to some weird physical observation that is correctable by fixing the calibration, not to a provable variation of the constants.

    If the charge of the electron changes, then you have nonconservation or nonlocal transfer of charges to deal with. These alternatives are mathematically intractable; the Bianchi identities that apply to conservation are very hard to dispose of.

    --
    Michael J. Burns
  7. Re:QED by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Informative

    Quantum Electro-Dynamics, not Quod Est Demonstratum.

    --
    Who is John Cabal?
  8. In other news by sam_handelman · · Score: 2, Funny

    Duplicate joke for a duplicate claim:

    Planck's constant (h) increased in value this morning to roughly 50 joule-seconds, sending the DJIA to a 95% confidence interval between 0 and 15,000, and increasing the wavelength of a penny moving at a brisk walk to a value on the order of it's own diameter, so that macroscopic, every day objects behave as waves instead of billiard balls. Tennis players in central park (whose velocity could not be determined as of this printing) may have been alarmed to find tennis balls which hit their rackets were defracted and created interference patterns on the fence behind, instead of going into the opposing court.

    --
    The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.