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Peer Review Highly Sensitive To Poor Refereeing

$RANDOMLUSER writes "A new study described at Physicsworld.com claims that a small percentage of shoddy or self-interested referees can have a drastic effect on published article quality. The research shows that article quality can drop as much as one standard deviation when just 10% of referees do not behave 'correctly.' At high levels of self-serving or random behavior, 'the peer-review system will not perform much better than by accepting papers by throwing (an unbiased) coin.' The model also includes calculations for 'friendship networks' (nepotism) between authors and reviewers. The original paper, by a pair of complex systems researchers, is available at arXiv.org. No word on when we can expect it to be peer reviewed."

233 comments

  1. This reminds me of something else by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't quite remember what it was, but I seem to remember seeing it everywhere. It was exactly like TFA article, though. Damn, what was that place called again?

    1. Re:This reminds me of something else by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wikipedia is completely different. There, you submit your work in whole and anonymous "referees" proceed to secularly mutate your effort into an intellectual monstrosity of its former self. Nothing is sacred. Some ignoramus actually removed all chemical equations from the Smelting article. At least in peer review, referees simply make suggestions which you yourself implement.

      --
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    2. Re:This reminds me of something else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't quite remember what it was, but I seem to remember seeing it everywhere. It was exactly like TFA article, though. Damn, what was that place called again?

      Because something on Wikipedia is just as reliable as a published journal.

    3. Re:This reminds me of something else by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 3, Funny

      Some ignoramus actually removed all chemical equations from the Smelting article.

      At least they didn't replace the whole thing with "Who smelt it dealt it".

      --
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    4. Re:This reminds me of something else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You laugh, but the Electrolytes article is repeatedly replaced with the words "What plants crave" about once a week. The bots can revert that in a few minutes nowadays, though.

  2. Well now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I saw that last sentence coming. I can imagine $RANDOMLUSER's supervisor won't accept his excuse for said supervisor's paper failing peer review.

  3. The climate skeptics will have a field day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is precisely what the global warming skeptics say is happening with the global warming alarmist community. ie. scientists review each others' papers, in a 'co-operative' manner as it were.

    I think I'll point some skeptics at this paper and then sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch what happens.

    1. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by Pojut · · Score: 1

      They probably won't believe it's real, and will accuse you of trying to make them look foolish.

    2. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by ByOhTek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The funny thing is, the skeptics suffer from the same problem.

      I hope the moderates don't, otherwise were borked.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    3. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think I'll point some skeptics at this paper

      Let me know when you find some. I mostly meet deniers, with a deep ignorance of climatology or any other science and a deep conviction of a conspiracy.

      If you locate some actual skeptics, people capable of analyzing the evidence, who have come to the opposite conclusion of the vast majority of actual climatologists, I'd love to hear from them.

    4. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the key difference that the skeptics haven't had their emails leaked in which they whine and howl whenever they don't get to peer review and discard every article that critizes their work.

    5. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      If you locate some actual skeptics, people capable of analyzing the evidence, who have come to the opposite conclusion of the vast majority of actual climatologists, I'd love to hear from them.

      What about people who aren't skeptics, but are damned tired of the whole thing being hijacked as a way to sell people on junk ideas.

      All the good intention in the world won't do you any good if the 'fix' isn't practical.

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    6. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by oiron · · Score: 1

      There were quite a few, like Friis-Christensen who actually raised real scientific questions, but most of those have since come to the conclusion that global warming is indeed caused (primarily) by human influence

      On the other hand, every Real Scientist is a skeptic; if someone claimed, whether in a scientific paper or otherwise, that global warming would cause the ice-caps to melt by Dec. 21 2012 or something like that, you can bet that the entire scientific community would pretty much laugh them out of the room. Somehow, I don't think that was what GP meant by "skeptic".

      So, good luck on that Great Skeptic Hunt!

    7. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by oiron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, peer-review the junk ideas out (aka, vote on the economic aspects). The science is pretty well settled, but the economics is not so clear (as if it ever really is).

      Come up with better solutions, implement them if you can, support good solutions if you can't. The problem isn't going away by denying it because you don't like the currently proposed solutions.

      That, we can discuss. "Global cooling in the 1970s" is just noise in the channel.

    8. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by sycodon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is that the "fix" is plain and simple, it's just rejected out of hand by the Envirowhackos because it doesn't involve government running our lives, a reduction in the standard of living, and allows for more growth and prosperity: Nuclear power.

      Now comes all the posts about peak uranium that ignore technology like breeders and thorium.

      Then comes everyone who thinks all reactors are built like Chernobyl.

      Next are high level waste folks who don't understand what reprocessing does.

      Last, but not least, are all the people who equate a nuclear reactor with a nuclear bomb.
       

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    9. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by The+Warlock · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh please. Let's face it, it's easy for the government to ignore environmental concerns; they've been doing that for years. The real barrier is the general public that's okay with nuclear power as long as the power plant isn't near their neighborhood, as long as trains carrying fuel or waste don't go anywhere near their house. They'd love them some cheap electricity, sure, but just build it near some other people.

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    10. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by sycodon · · Score: 1

      They can build one behind my house anytime.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    11. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by oiron · · Score: 3, Informative

      Speaking as someone who's at least read up on this stuff (not an expert, but definitely an informed layman), such large-scale adoption of nuclear power comes with its own problems. For one, building such plants is going to be extremely costly, and probably can't be done in time to make a useful difference.

      You talk about reprocessing, but even after that, you eventually end up with some radioactive waste products, to say nothing about radiation leakage into the environment.

      Finally, I think it's just yet another "all our eggs in one (radioactive) basket" solution. I'd rather have a wide range of options, from renewables like wind, solar or geothermal, to, yes, nuclear power where that's appropriate.

      It's difficult to comprehend why a place with ample local generation capability (say, solar power in the Thar desert in India) should go with an expensive nuclear power plant, when the alternative is cheaper, and a more efficient use of resources readily available (as opposed to resources mined from the ground a few thousand kilometers away in another continent), as you "nuclear only" types keep coming up with.

    12. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by The+Warlock · · Score: 1

      Mine, too, but you're not going to convince your average whiny soccer mom of this until the price of non-nuclear electricity jumps significantly.

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    13. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by sycodon · · Score: 1

      By all means, explore and develop ALL means of generating clean power.

      It's just that we can build many nuke plants in the time it will take to develop solar technology to be cost effective.

      We should be looking at the mini nuke plants too. Leave nothing un-investigated.

      But keep building wind plants and hydro for sure.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    14. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by oiron · · Score: 1

      I kind of disagree with the specifics of that statement, but agree in principle... I don't believe that it would be as cheap as you imagine to build a nuclear power plant without sacrificing safety (yes yes, they're all absolutely safe, but not if there are no safety systems built in...

      Note: I've worked (in a very small way) in one nuclear project (though I'd rather not discuss it too much), and this is my opinion formed after that piece of experience.

    15. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by MightyMait · · Score: 1
      France reprocesses nuclear fuel and (according to this article) continues to dump large quantities of nuclear waste into the sea: http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/thousands-of-radioactive-waste-barrels-rusting-away-on-the-seabed

      "Although dumping radioactive wastes at sea from ships is now banned, paradoxically the discharge of radioactive wastes into the sea via pipelines from land is not," said Mike Townsley of Greenpeace. "Such 'double standards' are not maintained for technical or scientific reasons, but only because the operators of the nuclear reprocessing facilities in La Hague (France) and Sellafield (UK) want to save money." "It is cheaper for them to continue to use the sea as a radioactive garbage bin than to store this radioactive waste on land; for the nuclear industry, money comes first and the environment second", said Mike Townsley (2). Each year, Europe's giant nuclear reprocessing facilities at Sellafield in the UK and La Hague in France, discharge hundreds of millions of litters of radioactive waste into the sea. The amount of radioactivity discharged from La Hague and Sellafield in only 9 months exceeds that dumped in the Hurd Deep. "Hurd Deep and the other former ocean dump sites stand testament to the irreversibility of dumping radioactive wastes in the ocean -- regardless of whether from a ship or a land-based pipe", said Mike Townsley.

      Put another way: TANSTAFL.

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    16. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by MightyMait · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I haven't been following this issue as closely has I once had, but is Richard Lindzen at M.I.T. still pointing out negative feedback mechanisms that other climate scientists had missed?

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    17. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by techno-vampire · · Score: 3, Informative

      You left one out: ignorant fools who conflate highly radioactive waste products with wastes with long half-lives. If you listen to them, you come away with the impression that the wastes from a reactor stay Highly Radioactive for thousands of years, ignoring the fact (if they're even aware of it) that unstable isotopes are either highly active or have long half lives, never both, because the two qualities are mutually incompatable.

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    18. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by P0ltergeist333 · · Score: 3, Informative

      As usual, the strong caveat at the end of the article goes unnoticed:

      But Tim Smith, senior publisher for New Journal of Physics at IOP Publishing, which also publishes physics world.com, feels that the study overlooks the role of journal editors. "Peer-review is certainly not flawless and alternatives to the current process will continue to be proposed. In relation to this study however, one shouldn't ignore the role played by journal editors and Boards in accounting for potential conflicts of interest, and preserving the integrity of the referee selection and decision-making processes,"

      IRL the reviewers are not chosen at random. Which burns the straw men built by the summary, most of the article, and the skeptics.

      --
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    19. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      This is precisely what the global warming skeptics say is happening with the global warming alarmist community. ie. scientists review each others' papers, in a 'co-operative' manner as it were.

      Oh, right. That must be why skeptics like Richard Lindzen are getting their "skeptical" research published (and accepted through peer review). Riiiight.

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    20. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by hkmwbz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lindzen is actively publishing. Unfortunately for him, his research falls apart on closer scrutiny. He might be skeptical, but his research has failed to support his skeptical position.

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    21. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      What about people who aren't skeptics, but are damned tired of the whole thing being hijacked as a way to sell people on junk ideas.

      What about them? Just because someone uses the facts for something you don't like, that doesn't justify rejecting those facts. That's a huge fallacy. Are you saying that this is what you are doing?

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    22. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the update. Regardless, I admire the man's chutzpah. It seems few people (who are entrenched in the establishment (it's easy enough to be contrarian when one is on the periphery)) are self-assured enough to go against the grain.

      --
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    23. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Going against the grain is not really a problem. Not doing proper science is. As long as Lindzen at least produces research that it's possible to verify (or falsify), he's good.

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    24. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      All the good intention in the world won't do you any good if the 'fix' isn't practical.

      Whether a fact is true or false has nothing to do with whether it can be changed. I can't change the rest mass of an electron. That doesn't mean that the electron doesn't have a rest mass.

    25. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      If he keeps coming up with more and more unlikely mechanisms in an attempt to disprove something that is almost certainly happening people will lose patience with him. Delay of game should have a penalty.

    26. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      I'm sure he also produces useful research that is actually correct. But his "skeptical" stuff doesn't seem to hold up very well beyond the peer review.

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    27. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So having radioactive waste with a half life of a billion years is the same as having waste with a half life of 30 years? Please.

      Nobody ever said "nuclear only". It's just that nuclear power has been so held back as to be practically unutilized. This is due 100% to excessive government regulations (ie you literally can not get a permit to buid a new reactor, leaving us stuck with 1970's era plants everywhere).

      I, for one, would LOVE to have a nuclear reactor in my back yard, provided I got free electricity out of the deal. I believe that either Hitachi or Toshiba (some Japanese company) came out with a design for a small nuclear reactor that is self contained and requires no maintenance. One fuel load lasts 50 years. It costs (outside of costs of regulatory compliance) about $2 million, and provides energe for some thousand or more households. Solar won't beat that until we genetically engineer plants that produce electricity rather than sugar.

      Not logged in because my browser keeps logging me out whenever I click on a story.

    28. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it's just rejected out of hand by the Envirowhackos because it doesn't involve government running our lives, a reduction in the standard of living, and allows for more growth and prosperity: Nuclear power.

      I don't know what an "Envirowhacko" is, but I don't know any environmentalists who want government running our lives or a reduction in the standard of living. In fact, in terms of big government, most want an end to the huge subsidies, in the form of loan guarantees, that make possible the construction of nuclear power plants. Nuclear power is inherently centralized and requires strong government oversight for both safety (from accident and terrorism) and non-proliferation concerns; decentralized power production from millions of solar panels, wind turbines, and biofuel-run generators, goes well with the idea of decentralized government.

      I'm all for prosperity, but "growth", in and of itself, is the ideology of the cancer cell. The planet is limited. The human species is just about wrapping up its adolescence, it's time for physical growth to stop -- and for those energies to go into mental, emotional, and dare I say, "spiritual" growth.

      I think the possibilities of fusion and of energy-amplifier reactors using thorium are interesting, but they are not here yet. Solar and wind are here now, as are meaningful improvements in energy efficiency. Plus, the U.S. and Israel won't threaten to bomb countries that build solar arrays or wind farms.

      Then comes everyone who thinks all reactors are built like Chernobyl.

      All reactors? No, but if you want a solution to the world's energy needs, you need to think about reactors being built by the same sort of companies that paint kids toys with lead pain and put melamine in pet food.

      So, in short: nuclear power is not a "plain and simple" solution -- and most likely there is no single "plain and simple" solution.

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    29. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by sycodon · · Score: 0, Troll

      And here we have one, although he has a new and novel objection to nuclear power. But nonetheless, with the specter of Global Warming looming over us all, heralding the end of life as we know it, he STILL doesn't want to go nuclear.

      Yes, people should stop having babies (Didn't that gunman at the Discover Channel studios want that too?) because 1) you all are nothing but horny teenagers, and 2) pretty much your mental status is questionable (undoubtedly because you don't think the way he does.)

      So throw out your kids toys and just feed your pets table scraps because we need these companies to build lots of reactors.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    30. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      The science is pretty well settled..

      If thats the case, then why do we need to spend money on climate change research grants?

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    31. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      ...and probably can't be done in time to make a useful difference.

      What? How much time do you think we are talking about? 10 years, 100 years a thousand? We are here for the long haul. Just because it won't be ready *tomorrow* does not make it useless. Not planing ahead 20+ years its what caused the problems in the first place.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    32. Re:The climate skeptics will have a field day by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Sorry, i known too many Journal Editors. Guess what they are--Scientists that also publish peer review papers. If anything thats only going to make it even more sensitive, not less.

      Just try and publish something that paints a Editors previous work in a bad light. Good luck, you are going to need it. The lack of randomness makes it worse. The editor can (and does) pick reviewers that will tend to agree with his/her world view.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
  4. Highly political subjects? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The system provides an opportunity for referees to try to avoid embarrassment for themselves, which is not the goal at all," he says.

    So, if a reviewer sees a paper that has actual data and a conclusion that goes against the consensus of the scientific community, the reviewer may reject it for fear of appearing foolish? Or rejecting someone just because of their publicized personal beliefs?

    Here's a hypothetical, a climate scientist who's an openly devout Christian finds data that sheds doubt on human caused global warming will be rejected because someone's afraid of looking foolish.

    That's the way I'm interpreting this study.

    --
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    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:Highly political subjects? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 1
      Shit, I forgot...

      Then there's the risk of letting shit go through to appear "unbiased".

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Highly political subjects? by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can anyone give me a good reason why the reviewers get information about the author in the first place? Granted, there are disciplines that are closed knit to the point that the reviewers would recognize the author based on their past work, but in most cases I would think not knowing who the author is would address at least some of the issues that they highlighted here. It's hard to obscure the rest of the review process but limiting nepotism should be relatively simple.

    3. Re:Highly political subjects? by ElektronSpinRezonans · · Score: 3, Informative

      A referees rejection can be overruled by the editor. It's his job to choose referees that will understand the research and make sure they are just.

    4. Re:Highly political subjects? by prefect42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is done as you've guessed, but it's still often obvious who the author is. Don't forget that sometimes a bad review has nothing to do with knowing who the author is. If you come across a paper that's done almost exactly the same work as you have done, or criticises your work, you could choose to give it a false bad review to try to prevent it from being published. I've seen papers that have received three reviews, two that say it's good, and one that says it's nowhere near worthy of being published. You often question the outliers.

      --

      jh

    5. Re:Highly political subjects? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >>>a climate scientist who's an openly devout Christian finds data that sheds doubt on human caused global warming will be rejected because someone's afraid of looking foolish.

      Nothing that extreme. More like they would reject papers that claim "global warming caused by natural causes" and accept papers that say "global warming caused by man", in order to protect their Own beliefs. A guy named Thomas Kuhn wrote about this very phenomenon (protecting the current paradigm aka worldview) several decades ago, about why the particle theory of light was initially rejected in favor of the existing "light passes through a medium" theory.

      Basically the scientists/reviewers rejected papers as "hogwash" simply because they don't fit the accepted scientific theory. It can be a real challenge for new ideas to overcome this censorship.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    6. Re:Highly political subjects? by lgw · · Score: 0

      Well, often you could guess the authors with reasonable accuracy by knowing the field well (a paper about X that says Y must be from Z or one of Zs grad students). Also, those climategate emails described lining up the proper reviewers for certain papers. I don't know how real or widespread that is (hey, they examined themselves for corruption and found none so it didn't really happen, right?) but it does illustrate a failure mode: if those choosing who reviews what paper are themselves corrupt, papers can be steered to carefully chosen reviewers to ensure the desired result.

      Fundamentally, the peer review system has no defense against deliberate misfeasance during the review of papers. That lies only in skeptics reproducing the original results (or failing to). That's a good reason to be greatly skeptical of any claim where the originato can't or won't share the data or methods needed to reproduce his results from scratch - you can't depend on the referee system alone, as tha was always just the first step of the process.

      --
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    7. Re:Highly political subjects? by Shrike82 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you're a reasonably active researcher in a specific discipline (even more so if you work in a small sub-field) then you'll likely get to know your peers when you meet them at conferences and when you collaborate with other groups in projects. These same people will be the first to be asked to review a paper in their (and your) field, and will either recognise your work or simply see your name at the top. Now if they have no specific involvement in the work then ethically they're not in the wrong for reviewing it. They of course must be unbiased, but that's a subjective term in the world of paper reviewing.

      Disclaimer: I both write and review journal articles in a few fairly narrow Computer Science sub-disciplines.

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    8. Re:Highly political subjects? by darien.train · · Score: 1

      Malcolm Gladwell would agree with you.

      The ironic part of this is that you need not look further than human behavioral scientists to help solve this problem. It is also possible that the whole idea of anything human-based being "non-biased" is a fantasy made up to represent an ideal that will never happen. Humans are just biased to their physiology and environment. End of story.

      --
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    9. Re:Highly political subjects? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's often difficult to hide it. Someone qualified as a referee has to be familiar with the state of the art in a subject, and when it comes to journals the field is usually a very specialised subset of a broader field. The people qualified as a referee will generally recognise the work of their colleagues, and also of their competitors. People can also communicate out-of-band. If you say to the top dozen people in your field 'I submitted a paper about X to this journal / conference this year' then the odds are that one or two of them will be reviewers.

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    10. Re:Highly political subjects? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember hearing about a nutrition paper that was rejected from a medical journal for a reason along the lines of "That can't possibly be true." So the guy updated the paper with an explanation of the basic bodily functions involved and how they work, which shows exactly why it could happen, and still rejected. He submitted it to a different paper where they basically said "This looks sound, we'll publish on the condition that you remove the explanation. Any doctor would know this already." The paper didn't fit in with the first reviewer's beliefs on nutrition, so he rejected it outright. A journal that was less biased on the subject approved it.

      Now imagine that your research goes against the beliefs of all the referees. How do you get published then?

      That same guy figured out how to get all his papers accepted without fail: simply load it down with so much math that the referee won't want to take the time to check your work. Since they can't find anything wrong with it because they didn't do the math, it's an automatic pass almost every time (except for cases like the above).

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    11. Re:Highly political subjects? by martyros · · Score: 1

      In Computer Science, top-tier conferences are higher quality than most journals. The admission is determined by a program committee, whom are carefully selected by the program chair because of what they'll bring to the table.

      I've only served on one PC, but can't imagine trying to serve on a program committee they describe in the the paper, with 1/3 "rational" (i.e., self-serving) people and 1/3 "random" (i.e., can't tell a good paper from a bad). Of course you'd get essentially random. But if that happened, the program chairs have been failures at finding a good PC.

      One of the comments later in the article addresses this -- talks about how the role of the journal editor in choosing reviewers is important. I bet if they added some kind of feedback mechanism, they'd get a system much more resilient to bad reviewers.

      --

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    12. Re:Highly political subjects? by pz · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is done as you've guessed, but it's still often obvious who the author is. Don't forget that sometimes a bad review has nothing to do with knowing who the author is. If you come across a paper that's done almost exactly the same work as you have done, or criticises your work, you could choose to give it a false bad review to try to prevent it from being published. I've seen papers that have received three reviews, two that say it's good, and one that says it's nowhere near worthy of being published. You often question the outliers.

      Whether the authors are revealed to the reviewers or not varies from journal to journal. All of the large handful of reviews that I've done had the author information presented to all of the reviewers; I've not reviewed for really big name journals though (at least not yet). The reviewers' identities are not made known to the authors, though. It is often, however, rather easy to identify the reviewers because my field is not that large, and personalities can shine right through unedited writing like reviewer's comments. Similarly, even if the author were to be anonymized, it's normally pretty easy to identify the laboratory the work came from based on the references cited, since most labs build on previous work in the lab, so cite their own papers more than others.

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    13. Re:Highly political subjects? by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a computer scientist, my impression is that the program committees really are pretty random, or at least based on some sort of preference other than a widely agreed "quality" standard. Try it sometime: resubmit a paper rejected from a top CS conference verbatim to another top CS conference. The correlation between the reviews is usually quite low, both in terms of the numerical scores, and especially in terms of what they liked / complained about.

    14. Re:Highly political subjects? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've seen papers that have received three reviews, two that say it's good, and one that says it's nowhere near worthy of being published. You often question the outliers.

      With such a small sample size - there's no such thing as an outlier. There is still selection bias and confirmation bias though, as you so aptly demonstrate.

    15. Re:Highly political subjects? by DriedClexler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Granted, there are disciplines that are closed knit to the point that the reviewers would recognize the author based on their past work

      Pardon my naivete, but I don't think such fields should exist. They present an extremely hazard for groupthink and inbred rubber-stamping.

      Any speciality should bend over backwards to maintain close ties with the surrounding fields of research so that others will understand how it relates and better be able to detect when bad practices are becoming standard. And it is vanishingly unlikely that this super sub-speciality will *never* stumble upon a problem isomorphic to a well-studied one in a distant field.

      It's because of this "oh this is a hard subfield, stay off my turf" mentality that causes things like ecologists *just now* starting to use the method of adjacency matrix eigenvectors (i.e. PageRank) to identify critical spiecies, despite the method having been known to mathematicians for 40 years.

      Hey scientists: science is a group process. You're special, but you're not that special. Please build off of the existing work. Don't compartmentalize. Good science connects, and connects deeply. Yours should too.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    16. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is implied, from an outsiders perspective, that pure Science, and the peer-reviewing of it, is done from an emotionless and data scrutinizing, analogous position. If this is not the case, and thus suffers the same level of human fallibility as every other facet of civilization suffers, how do we as an intelligent species, expect to progress by any civilly measurable metric?

      I guess its a pipe-dream to expect politics and gamesmanship to remove itself from the purported realm of logic and absolutes.

    17. Re:Highly political subjects? by drewhk · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And don't forget that top conferences have a very low acceptance rate therefore bad reviewers have a more damaging effect. If you accept 15-20% of papers then even the smallest bias is dangerous.

    18. Re:Highly political subjects? by oiron · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course it is. But that doesn't mean that peer review is worthless.

      Remember, a large enough (I'd say a majority, but I haven't actually done the numbers to claim that) number of people who get into science are doing it because they care passionately about their field. Eventually, the best of the breed floats to the top, and is distilled to give us things like PageRank and better safety in automobiles (see, I worked in a car analogy too!)...

    19. Re:Highly political subjects? by drewhk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wow, this gave me an idea! Researcher mimicry :)

      1. Find a successful researcher R in your field
      2. Find a journal/conference J in your field that anonymizies submitters
      3. Make a language profile L(R) of researcher R
      4. Make a paper P so that the profile L(P) is similar to L(R)
      5. Select a subset of citations from R and cite them in P
      6. Submit P to J
      7. ???
      8. Profit

    20. Re:Highly political subjects? by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The poor review assignment at large conferences contributes to that effect as well, I think. I almost always have at least one of three reviewers, and sometimes even two of three, give a noncommittal review along the lines of, "well this isn't really my area, but it seems pretty good". Those reviews basically are non-reviews, so the acceptance decision is then entirely up to the remaining one or two reviewers. So it often comes down to: did the one person who actually provided an opinion on your paper like it or not like it?

      In my experience that's often pretty subjective, especially for conferences with tight length limits (standard in AI is six pages). If the reviewer personally found the paper to be on an interesting subject with an interesting approach that he/she felt should be investigated, almost any shortcomings can be excused, and the reviewer will conclude that "Overall, this paper provides a valuable contribution to an important ongoing discussion in this area." But if the reviewer doesn't like it, finds it boring, dislikes the approach, etc., it's easy to find something that had insufficient detail, didn't sufficiently distinguish from related work, didn't sufficiently motivate the problem or investigate/validate the applications, etc., etc., since you really can't fit that much in six pages.

    21. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my field, you can usually just google the title of a paper to find the authors. For this reason, many journals no longer bother to anonymize the papers they send to reviewers.

    22. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Heinlein's The Cat Who Walks Through Walls", a somewhat similar scheme is explained for obtaining a PhD, with hints like "5. Select a subset of citations from your jury members and cite them in your dissertation."

    23. Re:Highly political subjects? by onionman · · Score: 1

      It is done as you've guessed, but it's still often obvious who the author is. Don't forget that sometimes a bad review has nothing to do with knowing who the author is. If you come across a paper that's done almost exactly the same work as you have done, or criticises your work, you could choose to give it a false bad review to try to prevent it from being published. I've seen papers that have received three reviews, two that say it's good, and one that says it's nowhere near worthy of being published. You often question the outliers.

      This is an unfortunate side-effect of human nature, and it occurs even in the "uncontroversial" subjects such as math.

      I once submitted a paper to {a well known math journal}. My paper took an {established result} by a {well known researcher} and made a {reasonable improvement}. I received two referee reports. The first referee said that it was an important result and gave me a list of minor corrections for typos and clarity. The second referee report only said something like, "All work on {these types of problems} is inconsequential because the problem was adequately resolved by {well known researcher}."

      I got the distinct impression that the second referee was either {well known researcher} or someone who was only one hop away from {well known researcher}. It was pretty discouraging.

    24. Re:Highly political subjects? by beanyk · · Score: 1

      All the physics articles I've been asked to referee so far have appeared on the arXiv (http://arxiv.org/) already. They tend to be submitted to arXiv and the target journal at the same time. There's a good chance I'd be familiar with the paper by the time the journal came knocking with a referee request.

    25. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some fields, trying to garner support for your paper before submitting it is normal, including lining up the referees. It is almost impossible to get a paper into some biology Nature journals without doing so. I'm not sure the folks at Nature are even aware of this, or realize how low the quality of many of the papers that appear there is. Some fields are complete politics and can keep up a semblance of excellence for a long time while playing this kind of game, while others are fairly sane.

    26. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great explanation, in theory.

      But the connected world is a paradox of group think in the Adam Smith 'sense' and true creative thinking--which is the reason why most researchers stay researchers.

    27. Re:Highly political subjects? by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      My field is like that. We're not actively trying to keep people off our turf (in fact, we need good computer-knowledgable people, please join us). I wish there were dozens of people from diverse educational backgrounds interested in this subject, but there just aren't.
      At this point in my career, anything I submit will, within two or three paragraphs, be met with "Oh, this is that guy who I met at the conference last year." There are literally three people submitting stuff on my topic and each of us has a unique spin on it.

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    28. Re:Highly political subjects? by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Here's a hypothetical, a climate scientist who's an openly devout Christian finds data that sheds doubt on human caused global warming will be rejected because someone's afraid of looking foolish.

      Well you already have a right-wing scientist with close ties to the oil industry, Richard Lindzen, who still gets his "skeptical" papers reviewed (except they fail on closer scrutiny)...

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    29. Re:Highly political subjects? by hkmwbz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the other hand, skeptics like Richard Lindzen are actively publishing... Their research might not hold up to closer scrutiny, but somehow it gets through peer review. Odd, then, if peer review is so biased and dismissive.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    30. Re:Highly political subjects? by smallfries · · Score: 2, Funny

      Exactly. Look how hard it has been for that TimeCube guy to get published just because this reviewers were educated stupid.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    31. Re:Highly political subjects? by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      What field is that, and why is it hard to find isomorphisms to known problems?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    32. Re:Highly political subjects? by zkiwi34 · · Score: 1

      Well, one option is that Lindzen is one of the "elite" so he's kind of invulnerable to papers of his being rejected even if other people don't like what he says. That or what he's saying has succeeded in passing scrutiny each and every time. And if it's the latter, then the "science is settled" clique have something to think about rather than bouncing up and down in a rage crying "denier!"

    33. Re:Highly political subjects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those articles that are written all have references at the bottom.. for shorter articles, it's usually easy to guess the author or which institution the author's from by looking at the cited references!

    34. Re:Highly political subjects? by tgv · · Score: 1

      Well spoken, without any hindrance of knowledge, as you gracefully admit. Field size is distributed as any other natural phenomenon: a few large, a few more mid-sized, many small. I've been working in psycho-linguistics, which is not a big field, modelling syntactic processing. I think I know all of the people that have worked in the same field the last 10 to 20 years, quite a few personally. If I get to review one of their papers, it's likely I know the author, and the topic. Of course, there are reviewers for "our" papers outside this very small group, since there are more researchers interested in these models, but I think your naivete should be cured by now.

    35. Re:Highly political subjects? by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      That or what he's saying has succeeded in passing scrutiny each and every time.

      That's not necessarily true. Do other scientists get everything they write through peer review? I doubt it.

      And if it's the latter, then the "science is settled" clique have something to think about rather than bouncing up and down in a rage crying "denier!"

      What do you mean? Denier?

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    36. Re:Highly political subjects? by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      As far as I've understood, whether the author is anonymous for the reviewers varies by field. I know (from talking to a reviewer) that the author isn't always anonymous, at least. What field are you representing where the author is anonymous?

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    37. Re:Highly political subjects? by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      Sure, and I wasn't even really meaning to say that this was always the practice, more that it was at least used; I should definitely have been clearer. I was specifically referring to experiences within Visualization. I've also seen this in eScience, although it's definitely not a universal practice. I'd question what it acheives, and it can be a pain for the author having to produce two versions of the paper, one for review, and one for print.

      --

      jh

    38. Re:Highly political subjects? by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the reply.

      As for what it achieves: I've been in favor of this on the basis that it makes it harder to go negatively on people from outside the field or, when a large field, from a less prestigious organization. I'm told that it's common for reviewers to use organizational affiliation as a negative discrimination filter, and that's unfortunate.

      Your notes about positive discrimination (where the reviewers know the author) is of course still valid.

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
  5. just like /.? by grub · · Score: 1, Troll


    Peer Review Highly Sensitive To Poor Refereeing

    Much like /.'s moderation system. No Citation Needed for this one.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:just like /.? by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As much crap as /.'s moderation system gets, it actually tends to be one of the better systems I've seen on the net. First of all, it's highly customizable so if I wanted to I can easily set it to add or remove value from certain types of moderations. I usually bump flamebait and troll up a few pegs just so I can see the posts that do occasionally get unfairly moderated. I can also add other posters I find interesting to a list and bump up their post value so if I'm interested in what they have to say I can always make sure I'll see it.

      I also think that the community goes a long way towards making the system work well. Sure there will always be people who abuse the system and moderate posts with which they disagree as flamebait, etc. but the community as a whole does a good job of promoting interesting lines of conversation and for any given topic there are probably a few people in the community who specialize in that area and can provide some excellent commentary.

      It's not perfect, but it's probably one of the best systems in actual practice that's currently being used.

    2. Re:just like /.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What I find sad about the /. system is that it works very well as you describe, it was one of the first, and now, 10+ years later, most sites have no moderation system, or terrible moderation system, or terrible and very complex moderation systems.

      Because who would want to use what works and not reinvent their own!?

    3. Re:just like /.? by grub · · Score: 1


      It's good but the system is useless when people's opinions overrule common sense.

      Take comments about evolution/creationism/god/no-god. In those cases people often moderate based on their agendas, not common sense.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    4. Re:just like /.? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Basically, yeah.

      It falls prey to human nature.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    5. Re:just like /.? by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it comes down to two things.

      First, the relative rarity of mod points encourages people to take it seriously. It also encourages the most active, most interesting posters to give up posting once in a while to moderate. Most other sites use a mod system that allows so many votes per article but still don't allow you to post and mod the same article. That means that the most frequent posters will seldom mod and that there can be people who only ever mod articles without ever commenting on them.

      Second, attaching a reason to the mods encourages people to actually think about why they are modding the way that they are. As many people say, there is no "-1 I Disagree" mod, in order to mod someone down you have to be saying that they are actively trying to derail the conversation. Of course, lots of modders will ignore that and mod however they want, but I think that it does make at least some people stop and think before they accuse someone else of being flamebait or a troll.

    6. Re:just like /.? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>it actually tends to be one of the better systems I've seen on the net

      As compared to what? I think it's junk. It has exactly the same flaws as described in the article, and is basically just "+1 I Agree" or "-1 I Disagree". The same purpose could be achieved via posting.

      Of course I grew-up in age of Fidonet and Usenet, where pretty much anything was allowed. I prefer that non-censorship, even if it means you sometimes encounter a conspiracy nut (who can easily be ignored).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    7. Re:just like /.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Slashdot's system is far worse: the reviewers (moderators) range from completely retarded to semi-intelligent, and comments that get moderated as +4 or +5, Insightful, are usually demonstrably incorrect.

      Your post exemplifies this.

    8. Re:just like /.? by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've long thought there should be a "-1, Disagree" option in the drop-down box that takes a mod point but has no effect.

    9. Re:just like /.? by tophermeyer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But the proper way to communicate disagreement should be to respond with a reasoned counterargument, the goal being to show the justification for your disagreement and allow future readers the benefit of seeing your reasoning.

      A "-1 Disagree" mod is anonymous censorship at it's worst. It adds nothing to the discourse. If all that you can add to the discussion is "I Disagree", then you can't add anything of merit to the discussion.

    10. Re:just like /.? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That's the point of "has no effect"--- the disagree mod wouldn't actually reduce a comment's score, it would just waste a mod point of the person who tried to use it, thereby removing mod points from people who shouldn't have them.

    11. Re:just like /.? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      It would be better if the mods had the user names attached and maybe even a short explanation.

      The Mod Trolls would be outed for everyone to see.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    12. Re:just like /.? by oiron · · Score: 1

      And the incentive for using it would be...

      ?

    13. Re:just like /.? by penguinchris · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sometimes after you've already used a couple mod points in a thread, you come across something that's +5 Insightful, yet you know is maliciously incorrect. People are replying to it as if the person was correct (they're +5 insightful must be right).

      What do you do? Some people get mod points more than others... if someone only gets five points once every other month or so, at best, are they going to throw them all away by commenting in the thread? What chance does their comment even have of getting read, since a few people have replied already? Better to mod down and hope that either other people with mod points or people who are commenting pick up on it and realize the guy's wrong.

      On the other hand, this is a great situation if other people who have replied to the +5 insightful yet wrong guy also realize the guy's wrong, because then you can mod those people up. But it doesn't always work that way.

      I'm not saying it's the right way to use the system, but that's a common situation. You sometimes see people say "I'm giving up my mod points because you're so wrong", but you have to imagine most of the time they just down-mod instead. I often choose to use mod points in threads on a subject I know about rather than something I don't, which makes sense, but those are the threads where I'm most likely to have something to say as well; it's a bit of a conflict. I have some mod points now and was thinking of modding up a couple posts in here, but decided to respond to you... and the article is "old" enough that I'll probably not get modded up (or even read by anyone) so it's a wasted opportunity ;)

    14. Re:just like /.? by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      Slashdot's system is perhaps the best (although I'm not a fan of users rating comments). The combination of encouraging people to spend their points on voting up and preventing people from voting if they comment on a story does improve the quality somewhat.

      I look at Reddit's godawful system where you entire threads between two people with 0 scores for every post (they've been modding down the other person's scores in the argument), the ease of which someone can go to a user's page who they are annoyed with and systematically mark down every post they've made in the last day or so without having to read them and cannot understand for the life of me why people rate it so highly.

      You rarely get good debate on Reddit, you get circlejerks over pro-cannabis, extreme anti-cop attitudes and Daily Show gush fests. I laughed at the whole Ron Paul thing and everyone on that site becoming financial experts who, unlike every economist in power around the world, thought that a gold backed economy was the best thing ever.

    15. Re:just like /.? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      But anything is allowed on slashdot. There is no censorship except for the rare Scientology incident. Set your comment threshold to -1, and your blaster to 'Kill' (trolls). If you don't want to read at -1, then no complaining.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    16. Re:just like /.? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      It should appear to decrease the score to the account that modded the post down. EG you mod this post down as -1: Disagree and YOU see me as having been modded down. No one else does.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    17. Re:just like /.? by oiron · · Score: 1

      It still wouldn't work

      The whole point of -1 is to punish somebody, and if it doesn't have any effect on the general public, it won't matter, and the bad mods will just use -1 Troll or -1 Flamebait as usual.

      It's not like the behaviour could be kept a secret...

    18. Re:just like /.? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also in case you mods haven't noticed, making me invisible doesn't work. I just repost the exact-same thing tomorrow. I refuse to be censored

      I think Slashdot's system has the exact same flaw as Web Of Trust (WOT) which blocks foxnews.com on my browser. The system is abused by people pushing an agenda, with the intent of censoring what they don't like. It really needs to be abolished since it serves to SUPPRESS ideas rather than encouraging the sharing of thoughts.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    19. Re:just like /.? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      The Defualt setting for Visitors (and most of the members who never changed the default) is 1 so anything below that is made invisible. It's censorship and MANY mods downscore posts for that exact reason (I hate this guy; I'll make him invisible).

      It's the same as if the government started bursting static over CNN's satellite frequency. Sure CNN's reporters are still speaking and broadcasting to people, but it's censorship nevertheless because the reports have been made invisible.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    20. Re:just like /.? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I'd like a -1 mis-informative, to undo +1 informative mods when people are flat-out wrong.

    21. Re:just like /.? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That's sort of what "overrated" is for I guess, though it only changes the comment's score, not the adjective.

    22. Re:just like /.? by EdgeyEdgey · · Score: 1

      Totally agree!
      It's argument in written form. The point of arguing is either to change someone else's opinion, or have yours changed*. There needs to be feedback for disagreement to be useful, so allow one persons opinion to change.

      *Ignoring reasons like wasting time, or pissing someone off.

      --
      [Intentionally left blank]
    23. Re:just like /.? by fbjon · · Score: 1
      More like the authorities turning the volume way down on selected snippets of CNN broadcasts, so you have to reach over and occasionally turn up the volume. The hint that you might want to do so is the fact that you suddenly can't hear the broadcast. On slashdot, those "x comments beneath your threshold" texts, or the numbers on the threshold bar are the equivalent hints. Hardly censorship, unless one doesn't know how the remote control/mod system works, of course.

      At most, I'd call it "pressure", as a really unpopular opinion can get "buried", but still no more than two upmods from resurfacing again. By the way, how could you know the thinking behind those many downmods?

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    24. Re:just like /.? by fbjon · · Score: 2, Informative
      If it is abolished, you get a flood of BS and trolling, hiding every interesting post. There already is enough of that on every other popular site in the entire internet. To put it differently: this system serves to promote ideas, because it suppresses them less than most any other system I've encountered. Though smaller sites can obviously get away with more freedom.

      Note also that ideas don't tend to be repeatedly suppressed unless they are truly out-there radical. I sometimes see posts promoting things that to me smell of the crank-shafting kookery that is regularly debunked as crap, and yet it doesn't get downmodded. Why? Probably because the opinion-modders simply couldn't be bothered then. I also tend to see posters loudly complaining that their opinions are being systematically downmodded, when it's really their arseholyness that is being systematically downmodded, with the dissenting opinion being the final straw.

      Sure, that is a kind of suppression of opinion, but polite, clear and coherent posts should also be promoted (that's how I mod).

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    25. Re:just like /.? by The+Famous+Brett+Wat · · Score: 1

      I've long thought there should be a "-1, Disagree" option in the drop-down box that takes a mod point but has no effect.

      It should have an effect, but not the effect of reducing the comment's score in the usual way. The most fragile aspect of the Slashdot moderation system is that you wind up with a scalar result generated by a small number of people with a small possible range. This means that controversial posts are subject to wide changes mostly depending on the last three people to moderate the comment. You can get +5 insightful on a comment and be modded back down to oblivion if you've made an unpopular point.

      But I'm getting tangential here. In practical terms, maybe we could have a separate ranking system for agreement which doesn't require mod points, it just requires an account. The only effect of the thing would be to show a statistical summary of the results. That, at least, would provide an outlet for disagreement without starting a flamewar. The scale could be from -2 to +2, showing the degree of agreement, with the only effect being its contribution to the histogram.

      --
      proof, n. A demonstration that a conclusion is implied by certain premises and axioms.
    26. Re:just like /.? by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      That's a pretty decent idea imo--- if you provided an explicit outlet for people to express agreement/disagreement they might be less tempted to misuse the rating for that purpose.

    27. Re:just like /.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That user page mass-downvoting problem should be fixed please vote for it in /r/ideasForTheAdmins please.

      The only think I think /. should import is the ranking of comment threads. (And the "best" algorithm, which ranks based on a quite sophisticated formula.) So even the late-commers might not comment in vain, because their comment could rise to the top.

    28. Re:just like /.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MOST OF THE TIME I AGREE WITH YOU!

      MOST OF THE TIME I AGREE WITH YOU!

      MOST OF THE TIME I AGREE WITH YOU!

      Maybe if I start my post off with that, you'll actually fucking listen for a change.

      Please stop confusing being called what you are (a goddamned troll) for censorship. I've said it before and I'll say it again (maybe this time you'll actually fucking listen to me). Most of the time I actually agree with your viewpoints. Yet I am also forced to agree that, yes, you are a fucking troll. You do not help promote your ideals, you help to show them as stupid or wrong.

      Personally, I'm beginning to wonder if you're nothing but a shill who is paid to pretend to be for one position, but to be for that position in such a way as to make people flock to the opposite position.

    29. Re:just like /.? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>If it is abolished, you get a flood of BS and trolling, hiding every interesting post.

      I still consider that a lesser problem than censorship. Example: Look what happens to people that don't toe the line and instead say, "I don't like Apples because it won't run ___ software that I need." The post quickly gets modded into invisibility by the Apple defenders. I don't consider that state of affairs acceptable, and would rather kill moderation, even if it meant dealing with a one-per-day kook post.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    30. Re:just like /.? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Do you remember the old moderation system? The one where you actually evaluated the moderation, rather than the comment it was applied to?

      It wasn't perfect but it was better than the crap they replaced it with.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    31. Re:just like /.? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      "-1, Disagree" option in the drop-down box that takes a mod point but has no effect.

      Instead on no effect it should be "-0, Disagree". Then the post would show up as "Score:X, Disagree" if there are equal or more disagree moderations than any other category. People could also set a personal positive or negative modifier for "disagree" posts in their preferences, just like they can for funny or troll posts.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  6. Review content matters by lymond01 · · Score: 3, Informative

    When you're talking about scientific papers, a "bad apple" reviewer may be able to skew the record in terms of 1-10 scales, but reviewers also do a qualitative write-up of the material. That's really the only important part and if one or two people fall outside the line of general consensus, they'll just be ignored.

    1. Re:Review content matters by Shrike82 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well that's not always the case. Different journals have different review processes. Some ask for numerical choices on a scale, others want choices in terms of "strongly agree", "somewhat agree" etc. for specific questions, others want only written comments and a final choice. Even this final choice is different in many cases, sometimes restricted to Accept, Accept with minor corrections, Accept with major corrections, Invite for resubmission and simply Reject, while others take the final choice as an aggregate of multiple choice responses or numerical averages. Some systems are obviously easier to be biased with than others.

      Regardless of all this though, sometimes you'll find out that only two of three reviewers responded, and at least one of those probably got one of their postdocs or even a PhD student to do the review. Some reviews will have empty parts where a reviewer was supposed to write a paragraph but couldn't be bothered, or because they didn't want to reveal the fact that they were totally unfamiliar with the subject matter. Getting a journal paper published is more hit and miss than you'd think. I used to think that a good paper with good ideas was enough, but it's not always the case.

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    2. Re:Review content matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, there are well-known (and used) tricks for that. "The paper needs to be re-submitted (i.e. is not accepted this time) with more experimental data". "There were similar ideas developed in the 1960's in an unrelated field, and the paper should include a comparison". "The level of English is not appropriate".

      If you have decided to shoot down an article in a way that referee members who are only lukewarm about the paper will not dare to oppose, you can easily. If your paper is very good you may get a white knight to defend you. Otherwise, you'll be booted out together with the bad ones. Too many submissions, too little time.

    3. Re:Review content matters by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about the reviewers, we're talking about the referees. The guys who let papers in the journal so that they can be reviewed.

      If the paper never gets published, how will reviewers ever see it?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    4. Re:Review content matters by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

      I think you're not entirely clear on how peer review works. Once a paper is published the peer review process is over, bar someone seriously questioning the results or conclusions and forcing the paper to be withdrawn post-publication. This is pretty rare. The usual peer review process goes something like this: Someone submits a paper to a journal. The editor will sometimes take a cursory look to determine if it's totally crap, but often will simply assume that people wouldn't waste their time by . If it's OK then they'll send it to reviewers which they have on record, often people who themselves have submitted papers to the journal and have agreed to be reviewers. These reviewers receive the paper, read it and then make comments and/or score it and make their reccomendation as to whether or not the paper should be published. There are often conditions set by reviewers that the authors have to comply with, such as "do this part again, tidy up this figure, expand this section" etc.

      A referee is something else entirely. They make sure sports are played according to the rules.

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    5. Re:Review content matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but sometimes (I should say always, in my experience) your paper gets peer-reviewed by 2-3 people tops. What happens if one of them does not event understand the point of the paper or has lots of rambling comments on something somewhat unrelated or simply downplays the impact the paper could have because it dislikes the topic (or the exact opposite, which in fact might be even more damaging to the system)? The editors will not disregard 33%-50% of the reviews they get...

    6. Re:Review content matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call them reviewers and AFAIK most other people do as well.

    7. Re:Review content matters by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There were similar ideas developed in the 1960's in an unrelated field, and the paper should include a comparison

      I've been suggesting for a little while that papers submitted to journals should not include a related work section, and that it should be the job of the reviewer to write it. This has several benefits:

      1. It ensure that the reviewer really is familiar with the field.
      2. It ensure that the reviewer understands how the ideas in the paper relate to the state of the art.
      3. It prevents the original author from getting a paper past lazy reviewers by only including bad related work.
      4. It removes anonymity problems where the author cites a lot of their own papers, making it obvious who they are (one professor I know actually had a paper rejected because he anonymised a paper by removing self-cites - the reviewer rejected it suggesting that he should look at the work that he had done in the field).

      The worst thing I've seen happen to one of my own papers was a reviewer who wrote positive things in all of the sections, and then recommended rejection. You can't counter any of his objections, because he didn't give any.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Review content matters by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was actually talking about the editors rejecting it without sending it off for review.

      My bad.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    9. Re:Review content matters by smallfries · · Score: 1

      The worst thing I've seen happen to one of my own papers was a reviewer who wrote positive things in all of the sections, and then recommended rejection. You can't counter any of his objections, because he didn't give any.

      Or the terrible things that you don't see (but hear about afterwards) like the reviewer who had no objections, was a weak accept (stiffling any decent discussion by insisting there was nothing *wrong* with this paper) but who then dropped the paper like a rock when asked to make a choice between papers sitting on the line...

      --
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    10. Re:Review content matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's not always the case. Different journals have different review processes. Some ask for numerical choices on a scale, others want choices in terms of "strongly agree", "somewhat agree" etc. for specific questions, others want only written comments and a final choice. Even this final choice is different in many cases, sometimes restricted to Accept, Accept with minor corrections, Accept with major corrections, Invite for resubmission and simply Reject, while others take the final choice as an aggregate of multiple choice responses or numerical averages. Some systems are obviously easier to be biased with than others.

      Regardless of all this though, sometimes you'll find out that only two of three reviewers responded, and at least one of those probably got one of their postdocs or even a PhD student to do the review. Some reviews will have empty parts where a reviewer was supposed to write a paragraph but couldn't be bothered, or because they didn't want to reveal the fact that they were totally unfamiliar with the subject matter. Getting a journal paper published is more hit and miss than you'd think. I used to think that a good paper with good ideas was enough, but it's not always the case.

      It sounds to me like all these reviewers just use /.'s moderation system!

    11. Re:Review content matters by Convector · · Score: 1

      A good editor is just as important as good referees and reviews.

      Ultimately, it's the editor's decision to accept or reject the paper. The reviews are to help him or her make the decision. If the reviews are inadequate or contradictory, the editor can solicit more. My first paper had FIVE reviews, which is the most I've ever heard of. One said it was lousy, the other four liked it.

      The editor is also likely to pay more attention to the more thorough review. If I write up a review that's half the length of the original article and provide 50 examples of unjustified assumptions, incorrect methodology, and results that don't support the conclusions, then the editor will weigh my recommendation more heavily than the guy who says, "Looks good. Don't see any problems here."

  7. Will this change anything? by iONiUM · · Score: 1, Troll

    Since the scientific community is so very obsessed with peer review, will this study actually modify the standard procedure?

    Of course, all I can think of is: gee, I wonder if this has had any impact on all the climate change studies that are constantly contradicting each other...

    1. Re:Will this change anything? by arivanov · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is an aforism: Democracy as a form of government is riddled with problems. However we are yet to invent anything better.

      Same with the peer review. It has its problems. However, we are yet to invent anything better

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:Will this change anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "aphorism", doofus.

    3. Re:Will this change anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      For any journals which use the model in the paper

      - 2 reviewers;
      - only accept or reject decisions; and
      - no editorial board member involved

      they might do something.

      However, the author's model does not fit ANY credible scientific journal.

      In general at least 3 reviewers are used. Further, the editorial member checks the reviews and is an expert in the field.

      In other words, the normal journals will only publish junk papers if ALL 3 reviewers AND the editorial board member are poor.

      Actually, I can't think of a single journal in science which uses the author's model.

    4. Re:Will this change anything? by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Troll

      I had to google to find out what an "aforism" was, and found that there is no such thing. Google asked "Did you mean: aphorism?"

      Ok, now I know what an aforism is. It's an aphorism that's misspelled so badly that I couldn't figure out WTF you were talking about. Have you ever even seen the word "aphorism" in print before?

      Some of us don't move our lips when we read, nor sound out words, so when you do that you lose us completely. Some of us, when we read, don't even see the words; we see only what the words convey, like the guy in The Matrix who said "I don't even see the code any more. I just see blondes, brunettes, redheads..."

    5. Re:Will this change anything? by Adambomb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, I thought i had developed a better system but the thesis was shot down in peer review.

      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    6. Re:Will this change anything? by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Damn, you're an asshole.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    7. Re:Will this change anything? by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, I'm an annoyed hyperlex.

    8. Re:Will this change anything? by stillnotelf · · Score: 1

      While I think I know what you mean by "hyperlex", I'd like to point out that Google has an order of magnitude more hits for aforism than hyperlex: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=hyperlex&word2=aforism

  8. Damn, now what do I do? by codewarren · · Score: 1

    I can't decide if I should care whether this was peer reviewed or not.

    1. Re:Damn, now what do I do? by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      Do your own peer review... toss a coin and decide if it passes muster.

  9. surprises... by l3v1 · · Score: 1

    Almost always - no, that's not a scientific deduction, it's just coming from skewed subjective personal experience - the ones who most complain about problems with article peer review systems are those who have the most problems publishing decent articles at decent places. Also, nepotism? Ever heard of [single/double] blind reviews? I guess this must be one of those slow news days.

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    1. Re:surprises... by lbbros · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. THe group I work in has had some papers in very respectable journals, and a few high-profile ones, yet this "peer review" problem is quite felt. It's not a generalized mafia, mind you. But I'd really prefer that the refereeing would be done in double blind.

      --
      A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
  10. Not to mention "autarkistic" research communities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean scientists who publish among themselves, i.e. inside their narrow specialty, in their own journals, without checking whether the problem at hand has been solved elsewhere. This is more and more common as people get more specialized, and can lead to very basic errors propagated inside the whole community, like rheologists believing in the existence of pure elongational flow (a trivial misunderstanding of tensor algebra). Since the peers reviewing the papers are members of the same community, those errors usually get unnoticed.

  11. It's part of automating the process. by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just this week, I was asked to peer review a paper in which I was mentioned in the Acknowledgments. The request was sent out automatically -- the journal has records of all their authors, and the keywords for this paper matched the keywords in my profile, so I was picked to review it.

    I recused myself, but really I should never have been asked. If they're going to handle the peer review process automatically, the artificial intelligence that makes the decisions needs to be improved.

    --
    Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
    1. Re:It's part of automating the process. by starless · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that I've heard of people deliberately adding people to acknowledgements to try to make sure they don't get those people as referees (and it hasn't worked)!

    2. Re:It's part of automating the process. by Shrike82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they're going to handle the peer review process automatically, the artificial intelligence that makes the decisions needs to be improved.

      I don't think it's a massive problem, it just relies on people being ethical about declining to review something if they have an interest (in the legal sense) in the work. People have a lot to lose if they try and cheat the system and get caught.

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    3. Re:It's part of automating the process. by noidentity · · Score: 1

      If they're going to handle the peer review process automatically, the artificial intelligence that makes the decisions needs to be improved.

      Someone submitted a paper showing that this was necessary, but for some reason the AI never sent out any review requests, so the paper never got approved.

    4. Re:It's part of automating the process. by ignavus · · Score: 1

      Except that I've heard of people deliberately adding people to acknowledgements to try to make sure they don't get those people as referees (and it hasn't worked)!

      Well it obviously did work once. Someone got Remus Shepherd off their referees list.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    5. Re:It's part of automating the process. by arisvega · · Score: 1

      They don't need to; you can hand in a list of the people that CANNOT referee your submitted paper, because of whatever reasons (meaning you don't have to explain yourself)

      --
      The three laws of thermodynamics:(1) You can't win. (2) You can't break even. (3) You can't even quit.
  12. The Social Text Affair by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The great anecdote demeaning peer-reviewed journals is The Social Text Affair, where a prominent peer-reviewed journal published with enthusiasm the article "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity", only to be informed it was, in fact, computer-generated gibberish submitted as a joke.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:The Social Text Affair by sribe · · Score: 1

      Peer review only works in fields where the "peers" are not gibbering idiots ;-)

    2. Re:The Social Text Affair by iris-n · · Score: 4, Informative

      Social Text is emphatically not prominent nor was peer-reviewed at the time of the affair.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair

      While the Sokal affair is interesting, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

      --
      entropy happens
    3. Re:The Social Text Affair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      computer-generated gibberish submitted as a joke

      Sokal's paper was not computer generated. It was not submitted as a joke; the submission was a deliberate deception.

    4. Re:The Social Text Affair by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Much more relevant would be the SciGen papers that have actually gotten through peer review.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    5. Re:The Social Text Affair by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      That particular paper was written by a physicist as a hoax, it was not computer generated.

      There have been several CG papers that have been published, though. They are almost always done to embarrass the institution they are published to.

      Occasionally, it's not necessarily a hoax, but instead the paper writers have no real understanding about what they are writing about, and are trying to get by on jargon and buzzwords. They often succeed.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  13. Important limitations in the Model... by nweaver · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are a couple of significant and important limitations in the model:

    a) It assumes only two reviews per paper, and that the reviews are pure boolean, and that reviewer types are also pure and reviewers are randomly selected (when two of the classes of reviewers, 'mythantropes' (always reject) and 'altruists' (always accept) are specifically selected against by editors and PC chairs based on reputation).

    b) It does not consider the cases (such as conferences) where there is a program committee meeting and the papers are not just considered on their own, but gone through a relative ranking process.

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:Important limitations in the Model... by ironjaw33 · · Score: 1

      a) It assumes only two reviews per paper

      I don't think I've ever seen a conference or journal that didn't assign fewer than three reviewers per paper. Furthermore, reviewed papers at some conferences may go through an additional review process by a committee, consisting of 10-20 people. It would be interesting to see the effect of the number of reviewers per paper on the quality of the refereeing.

    2. Re:Important limitations in the Model... by fotoguzzi · · Score: 1

      ...'mythantropes'...

      Google has three hits for this word, and one of the hits is the parent posting.

      --
      Their they're doing there hair.
    3. Re:Important limitations in the Model... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) this is not as rare as it ought to be, believe it or not. In my (limited) experience more than 75% of my papers have been reviewed by 2 people or by 3 but for one reason or another the third review was not filed in time or was so brief as to be non-existent and completely not influential for evaluating the paper (those typically made of a short summary of the paper, a couple of spelling corrections and not much more).

      b) you're right, but the ranking process is (AFAICT) rather similar to the "ordinary" review process, only the cutting line may be higher.

    4. Re:Important limitations in the Model... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      He means 'misanthropes'.

      Mythanthropes sounds like a title for a Terry Pratchet novel.

      Also, I got 145 hits for the word, which Google are you using?

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    5. Re:Important limitations in the Model... by lbbros · · Score: 1

      I've had some papers reviewed by two people last year (PLoS ONE).

      --
      A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
  14. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by spikenerd · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Slashdot let's you publish first, and be reviewed later. The peer-review system used by scientists forces them to work on their papers until someone finally "mods" it acceptable. Imagine how much faster science could advance if we had a system that actually let scientists focus on research, let people trained in technical writing do the reporting, and let Google design a post-publication moderation system to sort out the useful advances from the career posturing. Science could learn a lot from Slasdot. It is simply ignorant that we continue to put up huge barriers to publication.

  15. change the system by chichilalescu · · Score: 1

    just tweak arXiv so that reviews of posted articles are linked to in the abstract page. or something like that. why the need for anonymous reviewers? as long as the discussion is objective and to the point, there's no need for anonymity. and we are far past the point where it costs money to attach comments to an article...

    --
    new sig
    1. Re:change the system by oiron · · Score: 1

      Good point, though for anything serious, I'd think that you need a way of verifying a given reviewer's credentials. Just imagine if a young-Earth big-C Creationist kept trolling on a paper discussing (say) the selective advantage of different colouring in a desert lizard...

    2. Re:change the system by iris-n · · Score: 2, Informative

      And it would also help the readers understand the article, a good referee report is quite illuminating. However, this has already been tried out by Nature in 2006

      http://www.nature.com/nature/peerreview/

      and didn't work so well. Apparently, scientists are somewhat reluctant to openly criticise each other's work. But there's PLoS ONE that is alive and well, giving us some hope.

      Michael Nielsen has a fine essay about this in his blog:

      http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/the-future-of-science-2/

      --
      entropy happens
  16. Pharmaceutical "Studies" and Climate "Science". by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    After reading the article, you can add these terms to George Carlin's list of oxymoronic phrases.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  17. Bit of an arbitrary model by gnutrino · · Score: 4, Informative
    First off in case anyone is in doubt this study use a model of peer review - no experiment or observation of an actual peer review process was done. That's not to say interesting and enlightening things can't come from modeling but in this case the moldel they use seems very questionable and highly arbitrary. This part in particular is highly dubious:

    Each reviewer produces a binary recommendation within the same timestep: ’accept’ or ’reject’. If a paper gets 2 ’accept’ it is accepted, if it gets 2 ’reject’, it is rejected, if there is a tie (1 ’accept’ and 1 ’reject’) it gets accepted with a probability of 0.5.

    If a single 'bad' reviewer (i.e. one that gives the 'wrong' answer as determined by the 'correct' method of reviewing mentioned as a control in the paper) can cause a paper to have a 50:50 chance of acceptance or rejection it doesn't seem too suprising to me that a relatively small number of them could cause the process to become '[not] much better than by accepting papers by throwing (an unbiased) coin' - because in their model, in the case of a reviewer disagreement, that's exactly what is happening!

    1. Re:Bit of an arbitrary model by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It may be arbitrary, but do you think it is inaccurate? Last time I did peer review, I was given two papers to review. I assume the other submitters were also given two papers. I know that not everybody reviewed all the papers they were given, so presumably there were some papers that were only reviewed by one person.

      Maybe with a journal like Nature you'll get more and better reviewers, but for small journals, that assumption doesn't sound too farfetched to me.

      --
      Qxe4
  18. Re:Climategate for example by oiron · · Score: 4, Informative

    Broken record time, but yes. Such subversion of the peer review process did show up. The culprits weren't the ones you expect.

    In general however, I think that this study is rather pessimistic. And anyway, it hasn't been peer reviewed, so who knows... ;-)

    (yes, I did read TFA, but not the paper

  19. This is not news to scientists by Kurofuneparry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The peer review system is great for regulation, standardization and unification. However, all scientists that I've worked with/researched with/spoken with much about this topic admit that the system can be annoyingly flawed by group think and conformity. One bad apple ruins the bunch, right?

    The good news? While this part of the scientific community is not immune to problems, the slack is picked up elsewhere: As long as methods, data and results are transparent, reproducible and published we can actually have quality science.

    I often speak to people about scientific research and they're shocked that it's not full proof. This is kind of like buying software (perhaps even a Microsoft product) and finding that it's not perfect. Science is done by committee and progresses slowly. "If we know what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research" ~Albert Einstein

    Then again, I'm an idiot....

    --
    ...... and idiots rule the world....
    1. Re:This is not news to scientists by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I often speak to people about scientific research and they're shocked that it's not full proof.

      I don't quite understand what you mean by "full proof". You mean they don't recieve the full paper, or that the peper isn't complete, it isn't fully proofread, or what?

      Then again, I'm an idiot....

      If you're a researcher it's highly unlikely that you're an idiot. Even if your sig is correct.

    2. Re:This is not news to scientists by societyofrobots · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeap, old news.

      http://www.genomeweb.com/peer-review-broken
      http://www.slate.com/id/2116244/

      All it takes is one bad reviewer that doesn't know what he's talking about, or only skimmed over the paper, to get a paper rejected.

  20. Doing something unprecedented by oiron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I actually read the comments on TFA, and down at , there's a particularly interesting one:

    This study overlooks not only the role of the editor, but also the process in which the authors are able to answer the referees' objections. When the referees are competent, this leads to better papers through useful suggestions. On the other hand, when they aren't, overcoming the exasperation of the authors, their objections are easily brushed away, and the paper eventually gets through. Also, when the case is particularly contentious, there's still the option of calling for an adjudicator. In summary, the peer-review process is far more complex than this simulation might suggest. On the dark side, I’ve also noticed that referees are sometimes reluctant to object papers from certain renowned authors. The human factor is hard to remove. I guess many people will agree that there’s a need to look for better approval systems, specially today, when there’s an explosion of submissions. However we must also acknowledge that the present system has served its purpose of maintaining a certain quality.

    There's actually a reasonably intelligent discussion going on in there...

    1. Re:Doing something unprecedented by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

      There's actually a reasonably intelligent discussion going on in there...

      I'm not sure I'd be comfortable on that site then. I prefer the casual trolling, mis-modding and general idiocy right here on /.

      --
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  21. Using Professors' Egos to your advantage... by happy_place · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My dad (has PhD in a scientific field from Cornell) told me that when submitting a thesis to a review board of professors, it really doesn't matter how "Tough" a professor is as long as that professor in your committee has a rival. Take advantage of their ego with an equally assertive ego. You purposefully choose the rival professor to join your committee as well. Then they'll spend all the review board discussions and presentations contradicting and arguing one with another, and in the end they'll both be so incensed, that they cancel each other out, and it doesn't matter what you presented... I guess the TFA is only pointing out that this occurs at the publishing level as well.

    --
    http://www.beanleafpress.com
  22. Confirmation bias by grimJester · · Score: 1

    The outliers might not be due to conscious suppression of competing research. People just have some ways of thinking that make their subjective opinions sometimes contrast with what an objective observer would think.

  23. it happens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My first anonymous coward...

    My boss (a leading authority in his area, a serious person) has found around 10 errors in epidemiological modelling papers (papers that, by they way, influence WHO policies that influences public health). These are proven errors (in mathematical formulas). They vary from minor to massive.

    He informed all authors of the respective problems. How many corrected or retracted the manuscripts? ZERO.
    Will he write a paper documenting all the errors (as they are hard-science type of errors, in formulas)? Are you crazy? Remember that the other authors in the area peer review his papers. Therefore we will not risk their wrath.

    But note that this varies a lot from area to area. I work in another area (related to genetics) and 90%+ of the people that I know are honest.

    But yes, some areas need a cleaning up.

  24. Welcome to the real world... by Voltas · · Score: 1

    Welcome to the real world intellectuals....this is how things are done. I'm not saying its right, but knowing the right people is how things function. I know the University and intellectual world like to think that they are removed from such things but that is just not the case.

    I remember a news show highlighting a "famous" professor that did some amazing work in his early carrier and then proceeded to build a bigger carrier while reusing fake data and bogus information. He WOULD NOT have been able to do so if he had not known the right people and had the "right amount of fame". No one doubted him...however if his papers where published by a "nobody" they would have been caught QUICKLY.

    --
    -- Disclaimer: I can't really back up anything I post on /. --
  25. Is this news to scientists? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Peer review only works if the reviewers can be trusted and don't form a clique to get their work in and keep other people out. Surely anyone with even basic knowledge of human psychology would understand this?

    1. Re:Is this news to scientists? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Many scientists don't spend much time thinking about the peer review process itself. Maybe they question it when a good paper of theirs gets turned down, or when a bad paper they disagree with gets published, but they don't spend a lot of time thinking about what could replace it.

      Indeed, what COULD replace it? No review at all? A system where you get to strike one reviewers comments?

      Anyway, for most scientists, it's just something that exists and you just deal with it. I certainly have no intention of trying to change the peer review system: I'd rather do science.

    2. Re:Is this news to scientists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the science community, its not knowledge unless it's peer reviewed work.... oh wait.

  26. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by commodore64_love · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Yeah Slashdot is a peer-reviewed website, and has exactly the same flaws as described in the article. You've been assigned a (0). Slashdot's mod system is basically just "+1 I Agree" or "-1 I Disagree". I don't see why it even exists, because the same purpose kind be achieved via posting.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  27. Pity the internet is full of cranks by sam_handelman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because this is an important question for serious people, but has no bearing on why various cranks (Intelligent Design people, climate change "skeptics", Time Cube, etc.) may have trouble getting their work in print. Papers by such people generally don't end up in the peer review phase - they aren't sent out for evaluation by the journal, so peer review doesn't matter.

      That said, peer review provides substantially the same benefit as those "shoplifters will be prosecuted" signs you see in department stores.

      Shoplifters are very seldom if ever actually prosecuted - but the threat, even the vaguest menace - of public scrutiny has an impact on behavior. I'm not talking about scientific fraud (which peer review will seldom catch,) but about quality of reasoning, doing the needed controls, etc. We may have a system that rewards good research little-better than an unbiased coin, but the <b>perception</b> that it works, or that it might work for you, motivates people to do the work needed to survive peer-review.

    --
    The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
  28. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by thePsychologist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Letting technical writing people doing the writing won't work. A large part of the scientific writing is the discussion of the experiment, which not only helps the scientist clarify his or her own thoughts and gives insight into future experiments, but also really only is worth reading if the scientist or members of the experimental team do it themselves. Technical writers really only would have the ability to write the experimental procedure, and even then it would be hard. Since science is so specialized you'd have to have technical writers for thousands of subdisciplines, etc. This goes especially true for mathematics, where the writing procedure is very closely related to doing mathematics.

    Already because of this, no time for the scientist would be saved. A Google moderation system would have two problems. First, it wouldn't save any time because you still have to have some person doing the reviewing, and secondly you have to have someone qualified doing the reviewing whom you can trust to some extent to review in confidence, for otherwise if there are certain major problems with the paper but a few good ideas, they can be "stolen" by others, which may become a problem.

    --
    "What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
  29. You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean whine when a POS paper is printed.

    G&T's paper in E&E refuses to accept that the presence of another object nearby at temperature will cause the temperature of a hotter object to be higher than it would without. Making a mockery of the laws of thermodynamics which REQUIRE that this be true.

    E.g. If you have one end at 300C and the other end at 200C, at some time later, say, 1 minute, the hotter end will have cooled to, say, 280C. If the other end was at 100C rather than 200C, G&T would have the temperature of the hotter end at 280C still.

    But that makes a mockery of the thermal conduction laws which include the temperature DIFFERENCE between two ends.

    It also makes a mockery of the radiative loss equations for an object in a hot enclosure:

    t1 = temperature of hot body
    t2 = temperature of enclosure

    power loss = sigma * (t1^4 - t2^4)

    Yet G&T's paper in E&E would say that this is impossible! Since the temperature drop of the hot body cannot, to them, change if the enclosure is hotter.

    Think also that according to G&T, you end up with the hot end colder than the cool end, because it cannot be affected by the temperature of the cool end, therefore it must cool to the same temperature as the situation of absolute zero at the other end. That means it cools to absolute zero. Which is colder than the other end.

    How does G&T's paper work even at teenager school physics level of understanding?

    It doesn't.

    But it got through to be published?

    Yet so many are bleating here about how it must be the IPCC "warmists" suppressing papers opposing them. Here we have

    a) no opression, the paper is printed
    b) the paper is OBVIOUSLY crap

    yet somehow, (b) doesn't mean that denialists promote crap papers to bolster their position. According to some, anyway.

    How does THAT work?

    1. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by oiron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with all that you said, but for heaven's sake, use full-forms at least once

      For those as confused as I, the paper the parent refers to is "Gerhard Gerlich, Ralf D. Tscheuschner. Falsification of the atmospheric CO2 greenhouse effects within the frame of physics.".

      Contains such howlers as "There's no such thing as average temperature"... RC Wiki page

    2. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      Lacking mod points, or even the ability to mod this thread at this point, I'll just say: thank you.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    3. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by radtea · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Contains such howlers as "There's no such thing as average temperature"...

      Why is that a howler? It seems like uncontroversial physics if by "no such thing" you mean it has no physical meaning.

      If I take two bodies, one with temperature T1 and one with temperature T2, what is their average temperature? If you say (T1+T2)/2 you are mathematically correct, but thermodynamically incoherent.

      There is in general no thermodynamically meaningful way of averaging temperatures, which is why we should be talking about atmospheric heat content, not temperature, and why ocean temperatures--which are rising--are by far the most plausible evidence for increasing heat content in the troposphere.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by oiron · · Score: 2, Informative

      Average temperature between two different (widely separated) points might be meaningless, but the average of a continuous measurement is definitely significant. Even spatially, average temperature has a physical meaning. For example, the average surface temperature of the sun is 6500 K, though if you measure at various points, you may get more or less than that.

      In any case, that's only one of the many "interesting" ideas in that paper...

    5. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by oiron · · Score: 1

      OK, this is just moronic moderation! He was responding quite reasonably on-topic to me.

    6. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by bayduv1n · · Score: 1

      Except Ocean Heat Content, as measured by the Argo network, did not show any significant trend for the period 2004-2008.

      http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/comment-on-the-skeptical-scientist-weblog-regarding-their-post-pielke-sr-and-scientific-equivocation-dont-beat-around-the-bush-roger/

    7. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      G&T's paper in E&E refuses to accept that the presence of another object nearby at temperature will cause the temperature of a hotter object to be higher than it would without. Making a mockery of the laws of thermodynamics which REQUIRE that this be true.

      Euhm ... no they don't. They only require this to happen for total internal energy. They require that the sum of all energies remains constant, nothing else. Say the earth (or it's athmosphere) would grow 10^-6 % in volume, mass or well, a long list of things. That would cause an (enormous, at least compared to global warming, ie much, much more than 2 degrees) temperature drop.

      But since the earth is far from thermodynamic equilibrium, generally speaking a rise in energy, or a drop in energy, could result in ANY effect on surface temperatures. That's what physics, you know, really says.

      Sorry if it doesn't support your favorite political dogma.

    8. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by radtea · · Score: 1

      For example, the average surface temperature of the sun is 6500 K, though if you measure at various points, you may get more or less than that.

      You've managed to miss my point entirely. The Sun is homogeneous: the heat capacity of the solar atmosphere is pretty much a constant.

      The Earth's atmosphere, in constrast, is incredibly inhomogenous. The heat content of the water it contains is in some cases greater than than the heat content of the air, and it is trivial to have situations where a block of air that is five degrees cooler contains more heat than its warmer counter-part.

      Anyone who wants to take an average over terrestrial atmospheric termperatures has a lot of explaining to do, and personally I've never seen it done. The codes I've seen to handle the problem spend a lot of time on spacial homogenization and estimation, but nothing at all on heat content. They don't even mention the issue.

      The only correct way to generate an average temperature is to work out the heat content of the atmosphere and then create the "average" by assuming an average heat capacity. But doing this requires that we have a wet-bulb temperature record to match the dry-bulb one, and we don't.

      This is just ordinary first-year thermodynamics, and you'll forgive me if I suspect that most "climatologists" are actually not competent physicists, because they never talk about this question.

      The paper you mention may be bogus, the point regarding the meaninglessnes of "average temperature" in the context of a highly inhomogenous medium like the Earth's atmosphere over even moderate space and time scales, is entirely valid and speaks directly to the basic competency in physics of climatologists.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    9. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by radtea · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I've been quite provocative here at times and made some enemies, who periodically get mod points. It's kind of gratifying, really, to know that I'm annoying the small-minded.

      BTW if you do know of any climatological discussion of the heat-content vs temperature issue (which was heavily promoted by one of the Pielke's about ten years ago to deafening silence from the rest of the climate community) I'd love to hear about it.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    10. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by radtea · · Score: 1

      Except Ocean Heat Content, as measured by the Argo network, did not show any significant trend for the period 2004-2008.

      And from that what conclusion are you going to draw?

      Peilke quite properly draws the conclusion that ocean heat content did not increase in the period of 2004-2008. That's a scientific question, and he's obliged as a scientist and rational human being to believe the instrumental measurements.

      An irrational, anti-scientific human being might be tempted to make some further claim of a sweeping and political kind, but that would be stupid, and Peilke is many things, but stupid is definitely not one of them.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    11. Re:You mean whine when a POS paper is printed by bayduv1n · · Score: 1

      And from that what conclusion are you going to draw?

      I wouldn't draw any conclusion from it except that there wasn't any significant trend in OHC over that five year period as per the Argo network. One caveat would be that there could be instrumentation/analytical errors. Another is that OHC could be increasing with a superimposed cyclical pattern and that this period measured the peak to trough of that cycle.

      We'll have a clearer picture in another 20-30 years.

  30. The issue applies to more than papers by grandpa-geek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The government uses peer review to evaluate proposals for science and engineering grants. The same issues probably apply to those evaluations.

    I have experienced a situation in which one reviewer recommended turning down a grant for reasons that could be considered as biased, although the bias was groupthink rather than individual. The other reviewers were enthusiastic about funding the grant and regarded it as a potential game-changer. It didn't get funded. A few years later the game-changing nature of the technology was recognized, but it was too late for the original applicant.

  31. They are just as human by phrostie · · Score: 1

    the problems of nepotism and tribalism are everywhere.
    from internet message boards and professional office environments to national government and international politics.

    here's a paradox for you,
    someone could do a study on how to eleminate nepotism and tribalism.
    then they can put it up for peer review.

  32. Peer Review is not a blanket solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In my humanities field, where the vast majority of publications in the last 100+ years were not peer-reviewed, we're seeing pressure from administrators to publish in "peer-reviewed" journals. And, yes, we're seeing the predictable results:

    A. Any half-competent referee can figure out pretty quickly the author.
    B. While there are data and interpretation in the articles, the author and referee are supposedly skilled at argumentation, and, even when they're not, "nothing new here" will sink any article the ref. doesn't like.
    C. Nobody pays us to referee articles; it takes a lot of time, and does nothing for our personal careers.

    We had a fun case recently, where one professor (known for shooting down his enemies with the "nothing new" response) ironically turned out to have built his career on plagiarizing other's (non-peer-reviewed, usually) material and submitting them to peer-reviewed journals, with a first page of his own that was sufficient to identify him as the author. He made professor pretty quick. In one case, he plagiarized some guy's published Ph.D. thesis, and submitted it to a journal. The journal sent it to (rumour has it) the victim's Ph.D. advisor to be refereed, and this advisor recommended it for publication without noticing that it was a wholesale rip-off.
    In another case, as relatively unknown scholar complained to a peer-reviewed journal that this dude had plagiarized his thesis. From what I understand, the journal submitted the guy's complaint, the plagiarizer's response, and the evidence (which was conclusive) to blind peer review, and the referee sided with the plagiarist. After the extent of the professor's copying has been published, I suppose that journal will bypass peer review and retract the article.

    In the sciences, you can argue that a "few bad apples" will cause problems, but in the humanities it's outright broken, and basing hiring and promotions purely on the prestige of the journal or the presence of peer review demonstrably leads to failure.

    1. Re:Peer Review is not a blanket solution by oiron · · Score: 1

      Maybe this is because your particular field is new to peer-review, and hasn't developed a healthy culture around it yet? Not saying that this is the case, but it does usually take some time for a system to become established properly, and for the bad apples to be culled...

    2. Re:Peer Review is not a blanket solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Peer review has been around in the field, it just hasn't been the dominant form. It's not really a question of bad apples.

      Maybe in the hard sciences, you get some reward for peer review. Here, you generally don't get anything, so it's pure volunteer work. Moreover, since universities are increasingly basing hiring and promotion on peer-reviewed publications, you really don't get much credit towards getting, keeping or improving a job. So, you get volunteers; if you're lucky, some retired professor will step up.

      Second, when you evaluate an article in the humanities, you can either give a synthetic summary of its approach and methodology, then damn or praise it, or you can drill down to how it deals with (or unearths) its sources. It's something like the difference between theoretical and experimental scientific articles, one costs a lot more to evaluate than the other. The result is that peer-reviewed journals in the humanities favor the theory-heavy, detail-poor publications with a short shelf-life and no lasting contribution to the field, and when they do publish something dealing in detail with evidence, they can't evaluate how that evidence is used.

      So, if I submit an article on a subject that only a dozen experts know about, those experts probably won't be the peer reviewers, because they're too busy working on an unexplored subject; and if they do referee the article, they'll recognize who I am very quickly, and make the call based on that, rather than reading the article in detail.

      So, the whole system is rotten, not just this one apple.

  33. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by labcoatless · · Score: 1

    One problem I see with the approach you suggested is that work is already visible to many but may or may not be accepted in the end. Publications are often rejected not due to a lack of innovation but because of other aspects (evaluation, comparison to other work, ...). A new idea appearing in this paper will then be available to the world while the author is not (yet) credited for his work. Someone else might just pick up his idea, fix the problems, and publish it himself.

  34. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    This is more or less how it works in Physics, and an increasing number of other projects. The paper in TFA is an example of this. It's published on the preprint archive (arXiv.org - the X is meant to be a chi), where it can be read and commented on. A final version, incorporating feedback, may later by submitted to a more traditional journal.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  35. Curse by srussia · · Score: 1

    ...and then curse again. Let the recursion begin!

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  36. Re:Not to mention "autarkistic" research communiti by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Yup, I've seen exactly the same thing in several sub-fields of computer science. You read about solutions in textbooks published in the '80s, describing established knowledge, and then see brand new research papers in a different area where they ignore all of this prior research and come up with inferior solutions. About 90% of the papers I've read on Grid Computing fit in this description.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  37. Surprise, surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone having an open eye in academia could confirm this.

  38. Re:Climategate for example by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

    The short version of your linked article, for those who don't want to read:
    1. Not peer-reviewed => generally not credible science
    2. Peer-reviewed => not necessarily credible science

    Of course, any scientist already knows this. It's the mainstream press that loves to take crackpot claims at face value, because it's sensational.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  39. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by spikenerd · · Score: 1

    Someone else might just pick up his idea, fix the problems, and publish it himself.

    I don't see the problem. The first publication will always have the earliest time stamp. If people really try to fudge time-stamps, we could check the time-stamps in Google's cache and see who is lying, or in the worst case resort to some formal time-stamping system for publications. If scientist A presents an idea, but it contains a technical flaw, and scientist B fixes it, then everything is working perfectly. Let the scientific community decide which of them deserves acclaim. Scientist A is still free to ask trusted colleagues to review his paper before he publishes it. All I'm saying is that he shouldn't be forced to.

  40. Re:Not to mention "autarkistic" research communiti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And yet at some point I thought that the emergence of a huge, readily-accessible, and often high-quality literature on the internet would somehow make for the growing lack of general scientific culture among students and researchers. Indeed, it's amazing to see that (at least in my field) a large proportion of new and recent papers are now directly posted online in spite of desperate efforts by Wiley, Springer and such. I think this is quite recent and hugely beneficial to everyone. Provided people really use that information, of course...

  41. Peer review RIP by huckamania · · Score: 1

    "a good paper of theirs gets turned down, or when a bad paper they disagree with gets published"

    This basically says it all. No one ever submits a bad paper, in their own opinion, and bad papers are limited to the ones that they disagree with.

    In case you missed it, peer review is dead. Get over it. Don't be sad, you can still have your journals and pomp and circumstances. You can drag out the rotted corpse and parade around with your scientist friends. It just carries no weight with the public. We've seen how twisted it can get.

    That is why mob review has supplanted peer review. You can call it crowd sourcing or whatever, but it is not going to go away. Any paper that makes it thru peer review now has to make it past the non-peer reviewers, that is, everyone else. If you thought your peers were tough reviewers, then you are going to really hate mob review.

    Using a model? Guess what, there are people who love to dissect models. Using statistics, lots of statisticians running around that are going to poke at yours.

    My advice, don't fight it. The majority of people just want to get to the truth.

    1. Re:Peer review RIP by oiron · · Score: 1

      And the truth shall make ye fret!

      Honestly, this is just a load of rubbish! Random /. trolls commenting on articles is no replacement for formal review by competent peers of the author, and an electrical engineer or economist's politically motivated ramblings are in no way a rebuttal of science done and reviewed by people who actually work in the field.

      I'm not saying that the "mob" or crowd-sourcing doesn't have its place - it does. Precisely the same place that was once occupied by science journalism (the real rotting, stinking corpse); that of messaging and interpretation for those of us who can't figure out wtf a six-page paper packed full of equations and squiggly lines actually means. Independent review of statistics in published papers has a similar place too. But you must always keep in mind that the person producing these is (most probably) not an expert in that field.

      Skepticism is warranted in peer-reviewed publication too, of course. But in general, I'd take a decently reviewed and published study over a bunch of random blog comments any day.

    2. Re:Peer review RIP by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      "a good paper of theirs gets turned down, or when a bad paper they disagree with gets published"

      This basically says it all. No one ever submits a bad paper, in their own opinion, and bad papers are limited to the ones that they disagree with.

      Forgive me for being unclear, but that's not what I meant. If a -good- paper were published that disagrees with a scientist's prize hypothesis, then I think a good number of scientists would admit they were wrong and modify their hypothesis rather than attack the peer review system. Not all, but good scientists don't hold -faith- in their hypotheses and are open to the possibility that they were wrong in whole or part.

      On the other hand, when a scientist is presented with a paper that disagrees with their hypotheses, they do tend to scrutinize it more carefully. There will be some occasions when there's a paper published that disagrees with your hypothesis, and you read the paper and come to the conclusion that the paper is wrong and you were right.

      Those are some of the times you question the peer review process the most: when you realize that this paper that is disagreeing with you IS a bad paper.

      In other words, I was in no way implying that a paper that disagrees with my hypotheses is automatically a bad paper.

      It just carries no weight with the public. We've seen how twisted it can get.

      Really? Because I don't think the public generally knows what "peer review" is in the first place.

      That is why mob review has supplanted peer review.

      It has? Because I don't see the "mob" giving two shits about my research in the first place, let alone understanding the strengths and weaknesses of my papers, and I don't see other researchers giving two shits about what the mob thinks of my research either.

      Using a model? Guess what, there are people who love to dissect models. Using statistics, lots of statisticians running around that are going to poke at yours.

      I feel like you're talking at climatologists here rather than me. I do cell biology. To poke holes in my models, you'd need an expensive microscope, not statistics.

    3. Re:Peer review RIP by huckamania · · Score: 1

      You make some valid points, but I think we are talking about different things. Some of your peers in the scientific community have been using the label "peer reviewed" to imply that the contents of the peer reviewed item are true or proven. As you point out, there are bad papers with wrong results that have been peer reviewed, so obviously those scientists who misuse the "peer reviewed" label are wrong to do so.

      Peer review is a step towards getting published, nothing more, nothing less. It does not impart truthiness and scientists selling their pet theories in this manner are not going to succeed.

      Mob review only occurs when the public has a vested interest. It's not their job to check the work of scientists and they are only going to do so when the work intersects with their lives. Note that I am not saying that the mob is right or that the scientist is wrong.

      I'm just pointing out the fact that a scientist can not stop someone who is not a peer from reviewing and criticizing their work.

    4. Re:Peer review RIP by oiron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, when the prevailing scientific opinion goes against the prejudices of the "public" (read: bloggers with delusions of grandeur), they will loudly claim that "peer review doesn't work", without understanding what it entails, and what it's for.

      A reviewer hasn't necessarily checked the paper for accuracy, or tried to reproduce the results. What they are supposed to do is to ensure that the paper isn't unmitigated trash, and that the person who wrote it at least understands something about the subject. When a scientist says that they don't want to look at an unreviewed or unpublished work, what they're saying is essentially, "Don't waste my time with stuff that I don't even know is worth looking at".

      Accuracy is what rebuttals and counters are for, and they're peer reviewed to ensure that the person writing them really does understand the subject at hand, too. Review is more of a noise filter than an accuracy measure.

      Like I said before, crowdsourcing or "mob review" as you put it has its place in messaging and interpretation for the lay public. It doesn't in any way replace the scientific method or the peer review process. Please get that into your head.

  42. science progresses by funeral by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

    Peer review is often well established scientists shitting on competition to their method, or dissenting views. Each topic has it's fiefdoms battling to protect their own interests. Time after time I have seen good papers sunk because they are competition, and mediocre papers published after the authors simply add citations suggested by the referee – of course, those papers are the referees' and their friends'. I haven't directly been involved in the granting process, but I get the impression that the review boards operate in a similar manner. And through all of this science progresses. Bizarre.

    --
    46 & 2
  43. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by Bowling+Moses · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Imagine how much faster science could advance if we had a system that actually let scientists focus on research, let people trained in technical writing do the reporting, and let Google design a post-publication moderation system to sort out the useful advances from the career posturing."

    A few things:
    1. Where is this money to hire 10,000 technical writers going to come from when, excluding tenured faculty, all academic scientists are threatened with losing their jobs due to lack of funds at least one year in three?

    2. What exactly is a technical writer going to be doing? They will never have the necessary background to write a review article (seriously--a review article can have anywhere from 150 to well over 300 referenced papers, selected from an even larger pool). A research paper is the description of what 1-30 people have spent the last couple of years doing, plus a small literature review, plus discussion and future directions. Is the technical writer going to go through a few to a few dozen notebooks from all of these people and assemble it, despite not knowing what's going on and somehow predict where it's going to go? Or are they there to check over a rough draft and polish it? If they're the polisher, how much time do I have to spend getting them to understand the terminology, which can be and often is extremely precise? How much time do I have to spend going over the paper, which will have my name on it and not theirs, and which could (especially in the case of a very poorly written or wrong paper) have a huge impact on my career, checking to make sure that the wording is correct? Nuance can be critical in a scientific paper, especially if you're attacking somebody else's results. Communities are small and egos can be large.

    3. Your "technical writers write it and stick it on Google model" sounds like science reporting to me. I've had research described by the local paper. Thankfully the reporter was extremely diligent and emailed us what was about to be final copy. The boss was livid with the changes introduced by the reporter's editor to make the work "punchier." Had it gone out as it was it would have been a major embarrassment to the lab but we managed to do triage on it. You know all those stories that get written up on /. about some massive new breakthrough that is going to cure cancer and halitosis but instead is just another small-medium technical advance and everyone demands to know who the jackass scientists were that overinflated their results, how dare those overfunded eltist blowhard frauds? Yeah, that's what almost happened to me. How exactly will your system avoid massively amplifying this?

    4. Google-based moderation will increase the incidence of posturing. Ever seen a website pushed to the top of the search heap by artificial means?

    5. Lots of scientists read slashdot. We're well aware of the crapfest that is the slashdot moderation system. See any post having anything to do with global warming or evolution. Hell see any post having anything to do with biology and there's some asshole tagging it "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" and at least a dozen highly modded comments demanding that the scientist should be prevented from playing God...when it's poking about in a few systems in a highly benign fashion.

    6. There are barriers to publication. Some of them are a good thing. Any ignorant crank can spew crap online, as is their right. A paper in a peer-reviewed journal ideally, and in fact normally, means more. It means that it has been read by peers of the authors who should, and usually do, spot outright bullshit. It means that it has gone through a process of criticism--not necessarily 100% conductive but papers are usually made a little bit better; think add/remove/modify figure X or do this one extra experiment. Is peer review perfect? Hell no! Anyone who's published more than two papers has gotten back comments that are useless and we're all familiar with the occasional 100% bull

  44. The editor can make things worse. by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

    They are established scientists with their own self interest. If a small number of referees can have a large effect, imagine what a small number of poor editors could do.

    --
    46 & 2
    1. Re:The editor can make things worse. by oiron · · Score: 1

      The point is, the model the authors propose is a gross simplification of the real world, which doesn't consider (among other things) the editor.

      Yes, we all debate the relative merits and demerits of peer review here on /. and other fora, but these guys claim to have a working model and scientific data. Which they don't.

      Seriously, this is a Bad Study, which (ironically) would have been rejected in peer review. Maybe that's why it's on arXiv...

  45. Re:Climategate for example by oiron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Small correction if I may: Peer reviewed => not necessarily credible science, but you never ever base conclusions on only one paper.

    In most cases, a good rebuttal or three will counter the effects of any completely wacko paper that slipped through. In the case I cited, not only were there rebuttals, many of the other editors involved resigned from the journal because they felt that it was a wrong that that paper got published. I think the (larger) system more or less corrected itself there, at least until people started quote-mining stolen e-mails.

  46. Just wondering. by RavenChild · · Score: 2, Funny

    Is this study peer reviewed?

  47. In what way were they made one body? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In what way were they made one body? If they were merged, then that's simple.

    Or do you not manage to cool your bath down by pouring some cold water into the too-hot water?

    Your assertion that there is no average temperature is itself a howler.

  48. I call shenanigans on this one by pesho · · Score: 4, Informative
    Chances are that this paper is not going to pass peer review. A brief read paper shows that they don't even attempt to validate the model with real data (too lazy for real research I guess). Their model is also overly simplistic to the point of stacking the deck towards proving that peer review is bad. The reviewer role is simplified to an accept/reject decision, which has nothing to do with reality. They completely eliminate the revision step in the peer review process, where authors address either through new experiments or through argument the comments of the reviewers. If you look at the 'characters', what they call a 'rational' reviewer looks more like a 'bastard' reviewer. They completely ignore the possibility that a reviewer can make suggestions that improve the paper.

    I have several publications that were significantly improved through the peer review process. When I review papers my goal is not to shoot down the work, rather I try find ways to improve it. Of course there are 'bad' reviewers, who think that reviewing a paper is shredding it to pieces. These are actually easy to spot, because they rarely suggest anything useful and are often ignored by the journal editors. Speaking of which, journal editors are yet another part of the peer review process that is missing from their model

    1. Re:I call shenanigans on this one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is a work of "soft science" (sociology / psychology). it is not held to any of the standards you mention.

    2. Re:I call shenanigans on this one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chances are that this paper is not going to pass peer review. A brief read paper shows that they don't even attempt to validate the model with real data (too lazy for real research I guess).

      Sounds like as a reviewer, you would like to throw out almost all the mathematical and theoretical physics papers ever written. A mathematical model can be very useful for cases where real data is difficult or impossible to obtain, as it is in this case.

      Their model is also overly simplistic to the point of stacking the deck towards proving that peer review is bad. The reviewer role is simplified to an accept/reject decision, which has nothing to do with reality. They completely eliminate the revision step in the peer review process, where authors address either through new experiments or through argument the comments of the reviewers. If you look at the 'characters', what they call a 'rational' reviewer looks more like a 'bastard' reviewer. They completely ignore the possibility that a reviewer can make suggestions that improve the paper.

      You don't seem to recognise that science is a step by step process. Almost nothing is published that cannot be improved. The question should be, is it a significant improvement over what has already been published. If nobody has previously investigated peer review in a mathematical manner, then regardless of how simplistic the model is, unless the maths is actually wrong then it is a step forward. As a reviewer, you could suggest that they mention the above limitations of the model, but expecting them to actually model it seems to be an example of the "nothing is impossible for the person who doesn't have to do it themselves" school of thought. If other people think these aspects are important, they can extend the paper themselves, and get their own publication out of it, which will be further improved, etc.

      Of course, if previous papers on this area have already published more realistic models, then this paper should not be accepted. Also, if other papers have shown a particular assumption of the model is of particular importance, and the authors do not consider this assumption, then the paper might have to be revised prior to acceptance. In any case, it is important that the reviewer is familiar with previous papers in the area before judging whether to accept the paper (provided it is mathematically correct).

      I have several publications that were significantly improved through the peer review process. When I review papers my goal is not to shoot down the work, rather I try find ways to improve it.

      I think it is important that the suggestions that you make for improving the work are actually achievable. Just saying "get some real data" is not of any help, because it is actually quite difficult. Firstly, conference/journal editors are not likely to just give you raw reviews, for privacy reasons. Secondly, even if you did have the reviews, you would need some way of knowing how good the papers actually were for comparison. The editors don't know this, which is why they rely on reviews.

      Similarly, your other criticisms of the model may be valid, but how easy is it to model these mathematically? I suspect it's much more difficult than just saying "make it so". Giving broad hand-waving requirements like this is not helpful, and just makes the authors think that the reviewer is an idiot. They can be made as suggestions, but changes that are required for publication need to be spelled out with great precision, so that it is clear that the reviewer knows exactly how much work is needed to make the change. This should never be more than a weeks work, otherwise you are getting them to write the paper you would like written, instead of reviewing the work that they did.

      In summary, if this is an example of your review of a paper, I am glad you don't review any of my papers.

      --
      Anonymous Reviewer

    3. Re:I call shenanigans on this one by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      According to them, the quality of the articles fell by a standard deviation in some cases. That implies they were able to measure it. Can you get qualityometers from Maplins?

      Seems to me someone "discovered" stochastic methods, threw in a bit of chaos theory, hacked together a simulation and somewhere along the line forgot the pinch of salt.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  49. Re:Not to mention "autarkistic" research communiti by drewhk · · Score: 1

    There is a variant on this, when some researchers dig up physics, biology, etc journals, take models/approaches from them and apply them to CS problems. Because in the CS field these results are not really known, the paper is usually considered interesting. Another effect is that while all of the theories are properly referenced (so no plagiarism happens) the reviewers usually assume more work done by the researcher than what actually was done (reviewers rarely read the cited papers).

  50. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    Imagine how much faster science could advance if we had a system that actually let scientists focus on research, let people trained in technical writing do the reporting

    Hell YES! Papers I've read are gawdoffal, seizure inducing bores of things that are incredibly fascinating once digested. There was one paper I had to suffer through at work ten or fifteen years ago that used the word "enumerate" fifteen times in a single paragraph without once using the word "count."

    It's a shame we don't have more researchers like the lat Dr. Asimov, who was a published science fiction writer well before obtaining his PhD in biochemistry and becoming a cancer researcher. His nonfiction was clear, precise, unambiguous, educational, while at the same time being every bit as readable and interesting as his fiction.

    But lacking scientists like Asimov, we need intelligent, educated writers that can actually construct a coherent sentence that won't induce narcolepsy to write for the scientists. You don't want an astronomer doing biology, why do we have astronomers writing? Writing is not, after all, their field.

  51. Re:Outliers by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    The Precogs sent a ball rolling. They want their Minority Report back!

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  52. Re:Just like the Slashdot moderation system by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    "let people trained in technical writing do the reporting"

    People like sience journalists?

  53. scales of peer review by epine · · Score: 1

    Some ignoramus actually removed all chemical equations from the Smelting article.

    Some ignoramus put forward a regressive edit on an article lacking citations as evidence of process problems at Wikipedia. Yes, the edit was poorly judged, but an article lacking citations is a cork in a windstorm.

    I tend to defend Wikipedia since the interesting question is "Why does it work at all?" One lesson we've learned is that metrics of irreproachability constitute a poor utility function with respect to what most people need most of the time. It falls short when the aim is to slap your name on a document purporting to contain original work adding value to the community.

    So yes, Wikipedia falls vastly short of providing a credible foundation for promulgating reputation. The niche it properly occupies is halfway between the card catalog and the dusty tomes of eminence. It's a secondary transfer station in the subway system of knowledge.

    When I was eight years old my father showed me how to wind a wire around a large nail and make an electromagnet. It wasn't long before I looked up electromagnetism in an edition of the Encyclopedia Britanica from the 1960s. This was heavy going for a nine year old. I learned practically nothing, the eminence and authority of the text flying completely over my head.

    Sugata Mitra: The child-driven education

    And I set myself and impossible target: can Tamil speaking 12 year-old children in a south Indian village teach themselves biotechnology in English on their own?

    How did it go? SPOILER ALERT

    "Well, how long did you practice on it before you decided you understood nothing?" They said, "We look at it every day." So I said, "For two months, you were looking at stuff you didn't understand?" So a 12 year-old girl raises her hand and says, literally, "Apart from the fact that improper replication of the DNA molecule causes genetic disease, we've understood nothing else."

    Going back to my early experience with Britannica, "apart from understanding that the ratio of windings in a transformer established the ratio of voltage and the inverse ratio for current, I've understood hardly anything else." That's not high praise. I'd have made more progress with an internet full of unreliable napkin diagrams explicated in a foreign language.

    The problem is that all too often irreproachable equates to inaccessible. You can even find this relationship within the cloisters of the peer review process.

    From the font of no knowledge:

    When later challenges to the legitimacy of the papers submitted by the Bogdanov brothers arose, the debate spread to the question of whether the substitution of a "publication requirement" by university professors when they do not understand students' work is a valid means of determining the veracity of a paper.

    My recent insight into peer review is that it operates at two distinct time scales. The short time scale is career advancement with tau = 5 years. The longer time scale is reliable scientific consensus which a time scale of tau = 30 years. (It sometimes takes seven tau periods before the last ripple is smoothed out.) There is no question that peer review is a excellent mechanism to achieve scientific consensus over century time scales.

    The scientists themselves are caught up in the dual function of peer view to gate career advancement and to establish the accurate, long term consensus, and thereby sometimes fall into the trap of conflating power with authority.

    Within the context of scientific peer review, over the generational time frame, the cliques and rivalries fall by the wayside, the old arguments lose their sex appeal, and the bad actors move onto more topical debates.

    Peer review fails to transcend human politi

  54. That's because the period is too short by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's because the period is too short. Statistical significance means "unlikely to have been just "luck"" and that requires a significant number of values.

    30 years for climate, though sometimes 15 years is (barely) enough.

    So "no significant trend" != "no trend" and 4 years does not a trend make.