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EVs In the Spotlight At West Coast Green Conference
DeviceGuru writes "Electric vehicles were prominent among the 'hot products' showcased at West Coast Green in San Francisco this week. The event's product expo featured an assortment of preproduction units, prototypes, and concept models based on two-, three-, and four-wheel designs, along with several of the vehicles' creators. Specifically, the EVs and plug-in hybrids that participated in the show included Wheego's Whip, Saba's Carbon Zero Roadster, Green Lite's three-wheeled plug-in hybrid, Brammo's all-electric Enertia motorcycle, and Mitsubishi's i-MiEV EV, which PG&E is evaluating for some unstated purpose. Notably absent were Nissan's LEAF, Chevy's Volt, Toyota's Prius Plug-in, and Tesla's sexy Roadster, though in fairness the conference wasn't an actual auto show. So how many Slashdot readers plan to switch over to a plug-in EV in the next few years?"
Not now, not ever. FTW! Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
How about Better Place? The creator had a prominent TED speech. Fills up faster than a regular car, and cheaper to own. The only issue is that they plan on charging by the mile, but insist it's still cheaper than your gas guzzler.
Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas
I've heard that several times and it doesn't make any sense to me. If I am driving around town, I only need to fill up once every week, at most. If I can charge my car at home, I really don't need it to last an entire week. A little margin is required, in case I forget to plug it in one night, or decide to run extra errands, and accounting for diminished battery capacity over the life of the vehicle. Three days of driving is fine, which for most people is 90-150 miles. The Nissan Leaf can do that now. Some people have longer commutes, so that could be increased a bit, but I don't think the average commuter needs the 300-400 miles that a normal car can get on a tank if you can fill up at home.
On the other hand, if I am going out of town, there are very few places I can go on a single tank of gas. Even if there were charging stations available everywhere, the amount of time it takes to charge is unpractical for long drives. I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles, and confidence that there would be a somewhere to charge where I slept, before I considered using a pure electric for out of town trips.
I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles, unless you are surpassing ~1000.
And give me a million dollars, world peace, and a comfy pair of shoes or don't even bother.
Tell you what, junior. Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?
Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.
Sport, that's just not how progress happens.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Of course Edison didn't say that. He said "hey this dude Swanson has something that I can make a ton of money off, so I guess I'll just steal it".
Paid to stand in line and expect delivery by end-of-year. I nearly had an EV-1 back in the day, but backed out when they refused to sell them, would only lease. This time should be the charm. The charger location is approved by my HOA and the install estimate is done, so it's just a matter of when Nissan can get production ramped up enough. there's a set of legacy chargers across from my office, so I have the option of plugging in during the day. And the city gives free parking to EV owners in their garages, so it is even subsidized. They just need to update the AVCON plug to the newer version and things should be set.
With the exception of your 200+ range, the Nissan LEAF satisfies the rest of your requirements (it's only got a 100 mile range). It's a perfect "around-town" car for me, which is why I've got one on order. It should be delivered by December. I can't wait.
Since we can plug in an electric car for repowering in our homes and at our offices (and other destinations), they don't need as far a range. And since we generally use our cars for much shorter trips than the maximum range, that range was wasted capacity anyway, except for rare trips. Trips for which we can rent a car more suited for it.
The main problem with our transit economy has been buying cars with much more capacity than we need, and then looking for excuses to use it. If the lower capacity of early electric cars gets Americans to change our driving habits to use less energy, plus they're more efficient, we'll have won on both the important fronts needed to use energy responsibly.
Once the technology can offer the same full range at the same price for the machines as combustion cars did, we'll largely have outgrown them. But to get there, we need more people to realize that these early versions are completely satisfactory for reasonable use. Which will increase consumption, deliver returns on the initial models' investment, and bring down prices while increasing performance.
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make install -not war
Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.
He would have had to ask Tesla nicely?
and no one will until those rich people subsidize production for long enough for the makers to figure out how to get the mass production costs down and the endurance up. think strategic. think long term. go rich people go!
~.~
I'm a peripheral visionary.
"Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?"
Rrrrrring! It's more than that on the gas-station I can see from here. (Europe)
How about Better Place [betterplace.com]?
I heard Shai Agassi speak at the Commonwealth Club in SF, and met some of his people afterward when everyone went over to 111 Minna (a club). They talk big, but they have very little actually deployed. They talk about growing by a factor of 10 each year, and deployment all over the world. All they have are three (3) taxicabs in Tokyo, and one automated battery change station for them. Their next deployment will be seven (7) cars at the Sheraton Waikiki Resort, plus and a few charging spots. That is a Government-funded project. They have yet to deploy anything that pays its own way, even with subsidies. There are much bigger electric taxi projects; Shenzen already has 100 electric taxis running. New York tried one in 2007, but "it got to spend a lot of time on the back of a flatbed tow truck and not a lot of time as a taxicab", especially in cold weather, so they're deploying hybrids in large quantities instead.
Better Place's basic assumptions are that 1) fast charging technology won't work, so battery changing will be necessary 2) leasing battery packs is a viable business, 3) enough cars can be designed around the standard battery packs to make this work, and 4) they can standardize the infrastructure around their standards. All four are iffy.
A female environmentalist friend who heard Agassi speak commented that he's really good looking, and too much of his credibility comes from that.
You actually have the right idea with the big car. Old toyota pickups full of lead acids are the mainstay of DIY EV converters (I'm not one, just an observer). Why? because they have a high MPG*payload product, and thus can handle the weight. Lead-acid is ready to roll, right now. Li-ion is just too expensive right now. LiFePO4 might be there but really hasn't been proven yet. NiMH might be the dark horse candidate. So we're stuck with lead-acid, for all its suckyness.
In terms of convertible vehicles, I like toyota pickups, vans, and toyota highlanders. Why? I wrote a simulator that simulates drag, battery effects, and a bunch of other stuff and figures out the range of an electric car. Vans, hummers, and the like came out on top in terms of range. Highlander had the highest MPG*payload product.
Responsibility is an addiction
Virtue is a temptation
Community is a cartel
People are mis-identifying their concerns, in my opinion. The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel. In a gasoline powered fuel, you walk to the nearest gas station, fill up a container with gas, walk it back to your car, and you are good to go. If we could come up with a similar mechanism for an electric car, and help people feel comfortable that the need to employ it would be rare, then the concern would be mostly gone. I think the best suggestion I've seen so far is make sure the batteries used are modular, and easy to replace. If you run out of power, you can go grab a single replacement, which would get you to the station, where you could swap out the rest. That deals with the recharge rate - and might even be faster than refilling with gasoline, if it could be done correctly. The problem with that line of thought is that battery technology, and electric car technology - is not yet at a point where it is "good enough". And any educated market analyst will tell you that modularity in a market where the product isn't yet "good enough" will not compete well against integrated and proprietary product stacks that can be tweaked and changed more quickly in response to technological changes.
When electric vehicles match the performance, convenience, cost and actually achieve eco-friendly PARITY with modern internal combustion vehicles, then I will consider one.
And not before.
To those for whom driving is simply a way to get from one place to another, and have fairly short distances to cover- yes, they may be a viable option even if they DO actually cause more environmental damage than a real car at this point. (When the full impact of production including fuel production is considered, as well as battery production and disposal.)
For those who actually ENJOY driving as an activity in its own right- no current EV or hybrid under 100,000 USD fulfills the requirements. And even those don't really do a good job of it.
Yes, hybrids do cover the range issues of pure electric- for minimal mileage gains and far increased pollution (again the batteries!) and greater cost.
The inexpensive hybrids currently available have barely any mileage benefits over a car with an internal combustion engine. The expensive ones.... well, the added weight and complexity of the hybrid system pretty much outweight the benefits and the buyer ends up with a car that costs more, does more damage to the environment (current battery tech is still not where it needs to be) and doesn't handle as well. It MAY accelerate slightly quicker though, thanks to the high torque at 0 rpm of an electric motor. But handling and braking will be worse thanks to the extra weight.
Pure EVs will someday be the ideal urban transport, once the battery issues are truly worked out (progress has been made but they are NOT there yet, don't kid yourselves.)
For suburban travelers and those who must travel greater distances, hybrids will also be prevalent one day.
But that day has not yet come.
I do think that those days are getting closer all the time: in the near future we are likely to see hybrid vehicles appear that succeed purely on their benefits and not the hype and purchase/tax incentives,
Hell, even the Prius has almost become a practical car, and it's main selling point until now has been that driving one announces to the world that you want everyone who sees you to know that you are an eco-mentalist (to borrow Jeremy Clarkson's word.)
But for the immediate future modern internal combustion engines are the better choice for an automotive powerplant.
I do thank all of you who purchase them now however: without all of YOU the research that will one day allow some company to make a GOOD hybrid car would not get done.
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I hope you meant mph.
I know SI units are all the rage, but you have to remember to change the numbers when you change the units. 60 km/h is all of 36mph.
[...] when I do drive, it's generally over 500 miles (my trips have been 700-1500 miles and I do maybe four or so of them per year [...] Even if I do transition to a typical commuter profile, I still am going to be very reluctant to maintain two cars (one for commuting and one for traveling) when all I really need is one car which has typical endurance (300-400 miles between refuel/recharge).
Two words: Rental Car.
You have the electric for most of your driving. When you need a car for some kind of distance, rent one. Especially if you're doing it only four times per year.
I like to do bike rides in my area. I'll rent a minivan for a day once a month, since I have a little sports car that won't fit a bicycle. It costs me around $50. That's cheaper than a car payment on a second car.
The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel.
Another possible option: call a tow truck, have the tow-truck use its engine to recharge your battery to the point where you can make it to the nearest recharge station. Not really all that different from what a lot of people would do when their gas-powered car runs out of gas.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
&& >= 60 km/h.
Ignoring that 60km/h can be done on a moped, I'll assume you meant 60mph. Which, if you had done more than jump on the groupthink bandwagon, you would realize is easily doable (admittedly with "high-performance" electric vehicles, but still). Mass-production vehicles don't necessarily need to be all that speedy, although I don't think 60mph is outside the realm of "normal" unless you're some kind of anti-technology freak.
The biggest factor against electric vehicles is currently range, not speed. Tesla motors has had an electric drag racer for several years; you can easily find videos of their electric car absolutely smoking petroleum-based racers on the track. Power is actually *better* with an electric motor - the power (torque) curve is dramatically different in an electric motor as compared to a combustion engine, in that (in a basic sense) the power is all available regardless of the RPM of the motor, as opposed to a combustion engine requiring rotational energy before it can crank out decent numbers.
I've heard some absolutely ridiculous arguments against electric motor ranges, by the way - someone actually commented that traffic would obliterate the supposed fuel-efficiency numbers of any EV... without stopping to think that when the vehicle is not in motion, the motor isn't doing anything. If you are at a red light, the only things taking electrical power are your radio and the vehicle's climate-control system - unlike a combustion engine, which keeps a massive flywheel turning as long as the vehicle is "running". This can be unsettling in a hybrid; it takes some getting used to when your car appears to stall and die every time you come to a complete stop.
Energy storage technology is improving at a rapid pace, both on the size/mass end of things (how big/heavy is it), and on the capacity end of things (how long does a single charge last). A recent development in the field (were one to inquire) would be a battery that can be printed using an ink-jet printer, on normal paper (special ink, of course). This should make capacitor technology achieve things previously thought of as outside the realm of possibility, and quite soon.
On the "consumer-ready" side of the equation, a Swedish company recently received a prize for designing and building a vehicle they believe will cost approximately US$20,000 per unit for mass production. It's a 4-seater that achieves highway speeds, and it actually resembles a car (as opposed to the "concept vehicles" that have been being trumpeted as the latest and greatest but which no one in their right mind would be caught actually driving).
I don't mean to get all ad-hominem on you, but did you bother to do a simple web query before responding, or was this more of an off-the-cuff knee-jerk type of thing?
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I thought you could have a standard charging interface a bit like USB. You hook up your car and it uses a data interface to talk to the electricity provider. They exchange account details and if that works then you get charging current. Devices like this could be installed on a lot of electricity poles. Pretty much anywhere you can safely stop you could charge from the grid.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
...I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles...
Good grief. 1,000 miles is a lot more than a full day's drive... For the sake of argument, we'll say you're doing circles on a highway in Texas, so you can actually get away with an average speed of 75 miles an hour... Do you realize you're casually throwing around nearly 14 hours' driving time, not accounting for stops for food/bathroom breaks? Never mind that (assuming a very generous 350 miles per tank of gas) you would need to stop at least 3 times, simply for gasoline. That's nearly double the amount of time that truckers are legally allowed to drive in a single day, for fatigue reasons. All of this is at high speed, with no stopping. Drop the average speed to something more reasonable, like 60mph, and you end up with a driving time of nearly 17 hours. I have personally managed an 1800 mile cross-country trip in three actual days (not "driving time" but "actual time elapsed"), and let me tell you, that was a brutal pace. A thousand miles is closer to two full days' reasonable driving time than to the "full day's drive" you claim. Having driven to remote locations as part of my job, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that a full day of "on the clock" driving is more like 400 miles per 8-hour day, assuming perfect weather/visibility and no construction.
To stay on the topic of "a full tank of gas", I get about 300 miles to the tank in my PT Cruiser. A full tank is approximately 15 gallons, but that probably isn't relevant information for this conversation. So let's call 300 miles "a tankful". Driving to the nearest town to the north of the one I live in is about 30 miles. I did this 5 times a week to get to my place of employment - and then drove back in the evenings. "Aha!" you shout, "that's a whole tank of gas right there!" To which I respond "Yes, it is. In a week, not a day."
Unless you are a commercial shipping company, or someone whose job it is to drive for hours on end every day, I simply cannot understand your argument.
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Or you could just buy a better gas car for a hell of a lot less and fill up in 5 minutes at a gas station.
Define "better", please, because I'm not seeing any definition of "better" that fits that description. Electric vehicles have as much power as gasoline vehicles, they're much quieter, they're just as comfortable... Tell me how a loud, smelly thing is better than a quiet, clean one. Please.
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The answer, of course, would have been an Aptera 2h.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series
An electric that went 100 miles or so, and later a hybrid that has the same batteries but when it ran down, a tiny gasoline motor would kick in recharging them. It's the exact same principle as diesel-electric trains that has been around since the 30s. The plus side is you can still have power (electric DC motors are potent) but you don't need a huge gasoline engine whose size is only used to 100% effect at hard acceleration (and wasting gas otherwise) and instead gear towards the lowest possible gasoline motor (smaller is much more mpg friendly) whose maximum output will roughly match the average depletion of the batteries during normal driving. Maybe a tiny fraction more.
Hell, even the really advanced big motored cars are trying to save gas by turning of cylinders (some Mercedes and Cadillacs, maybe others), why not bypass all that mechanical complexity and go with a tried and true system that worked the last 70 years for big ass trains?
Jay Leno testing the all electric Aptera just to prove it's not 100% vaporware:
http://vimeo.com/5285448
It doesn't need to be aptera only, but I think the only thing holding up the system are the weenies that think it's better to reach Utopia first (no gas instead of, say 100+ mpg) forgetting their little envirobiles will be made of plenty of lightweight plastic (petroleum).
I mean, if you really have a hard on for an electric car but need range from time to time, the only other real solution is to buy some electric car and rent a gas car when you need it.
(what, power can only run one direction?)
Well...yes, at least on most modern cars unless it's a 1-2v trickle, otherwise you're likely to turn around and nuke the computer(s) from orbit, even though they're on a protected circuit. But I'm guessing you haven't seen the size of the average battery pack on a ev car. They weigh around 450lbs, and a 6v mini-cell doesn't have the amperage to get you going anywhere.
Om, nomnomnom...
In a gasoline powered fuel, you walk to the nearest gas station, fill up a container with gas, walk it back to your car, and you are good to go. If we could come up with a similar mechanism for an electric car, and help people feel comfortable that the need to employ it would be rare, then the concern would be mostly gone.
We don't need to come up with one. There is one - at least for lead acid battery vehicles. Lead acid batteries 'recover' a small amount of voltage when left to stand, so if you run out of charge in a lead acid EV, you let the car sit for 10-20 minutes and you'll have enough charge to creep a few kilometers home. And in any EV, 'running out of charge' is a gradual process, it's not like in a fuel powered vehicle where you go from 100% performance to 0% instantly.
I think the best suggestion I've seen so far is make sure the batteries used are modular, and easy to replace. If you run out of power, you can go grab a single replacement, which would get you to the station, where you could swap out the rest.
This actually ain't bad. A 10kg lithium booster battery would hold enough charge to get you to the nearest charge point.
The problem with that line of thought is that battery technology, and electric car technology - is not yet at a point where it is "good enough".
Actually, for the vast majority of purposes and drivers, EV technology IS good enough. Sadly, when people come up against new ideas we love to play "what if" and come up with scenarios where the new thing won't work. It's a cheap, easy way to feel smart. That's why you talk to the guy from Chicago who does 20km a week, and he says "yeah but what if I want to drive to my aunt's house in London?" Bingo, electric cars are obviously useless and he gets to feel smug for 10 minutes knowing that he's smarter than whoever suggested electric cars to him.
The end result is that until a new technology is markedly better in every way than the old technology it replaces, it will see undeserved resistance from the general market.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
You're absolutely right. Sadly, a lot of people apply your logic the other way around - instead of saying "well, my Honda Accord won't tow a horse float or let me shift a ton of sand, so why should I expect an electric car to do so?" they say "what if one day I want to tow a horse float for 600kms on the beach with my dog in the car while carrying four friends and my kids?" And they conclude that despite the fact that they'd be perfectly OK with a Honda Accord for 99.999999% of their driving life, that they in fact really need a Canyonero.
And then they only ever drive the goddamn thing across the street to the supermarket and back.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
&& >= 60 km/h.
Where have ye been sleeping the last decade? The Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, and 2002 released Honda Civic are all hybrids and all meet your demands for unlimited distance, same cost as a regular car, and highway speeds. But heaven forbid you let facts get in the way.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
will be electric, or plug-in hybrid.
Yes, I know it's more expensive, but I can afford it, and the electric car industry needs help to get established.
Gas cars have had 100 years of development by some of the brightest people around.
It's not surprising that they are refined to such a high degree.
Yes, I know that the first generation electrics will not be as good as the gas versions.
but... WE NEED TO STOP BURNING OIL!
Electricity is not subject to the taxes imposed on motor fuels. This artificially skews the cost comparisons being made. What happens if there is a substantial shift to electric power and states find that revenue from gas road taxes starts falling off? It makes sense to me that they will shift the tax burden to electricity use. This will cause some problem since electricity is used for many things other than transportation. A per mile tax on electric vehicles is the answer. Maybe. A legislative conundrum!
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
This is the approach being taken by the Chevy Volt, which isn't on sale yet but seems far more likely to see widespread adoption than the Aptera (based on marketing budgets and so on).
And batteries lose their charge in the cold weather.
No they don't, they simply cannot deliver their power when cold. The chemical reactions that occur in them when you draw power from them happen too slowly. Drawing power from them happens inefficiently at this time. However, when you begin to run the system it heats up, the batteries are heated in short order, and then you're going down the road just fine.
Ask any Canadian, he'll tell you dozens of stories about regular cars and trucks not starting in the middle of winter.
I'd rather ask a Canadian who knows how the car battery works. Oh wait, I got an "A" in a six-unit automotive electronics course... I think I'll just ask myself. While we're on the subject, I'm also ASE certified in automotive heating and cooling systems.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"