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Are Consumer Hard Drives Headed Into History?

Lucas123 writes "With NAND flash fabricators ramping up production, per GB prices of solid state drives are expected to drop by more than half by this time next year to about 50 cents. Even so, consumers still look at three things when purchasing a computer: CPU power, memory size, and drive capacity, giving spinning disk the edge. SSD manufacturers like Samsung and SanDisk have tried but failed to change consumer attitudes toward choosing SSDs for their performance, durability and lower power use. But, with the release of the new MacBook Air (sans hard disk drive), Steve Jobs has joined the marketing push and may have the clout to shift the market away from hard drives, even if they're still an order of magnitude cheaper."

18 of 681 comments (clear)

  1. Steve Jobs has clout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    He has enough clout to push about 8% of consumers to buy overpriced hardware.

    1. Re:Steve Jobs has clout by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually I'd say those numbers are probably declining except for the diehard Mac users. Why do I say that? Because I live next to a college that traditionally has been HEAVY Mac territory. in fact just 5 years ago I bet I could have counted the non Macs I'd see when I walked upon campus with one hand. What is it now, and as far as the eye can see? Netbooks. Nothing but small thin light easy to carry and cheap netbooks as far as the eye can see. While Steve has usually been good at getting ahead of the curve with consumers I think he missed the boat with this one, as the most popular models I'm seeing, and this is on a campus with a LOT of old and new money, and can certainly afford MBA if they want, is the 7-10 inch mini netbooks. Talking to the kids, which since my oldest is now attending I get to quite often, is the size and weight makes them just too handy for classes, and more and more the average folks are jumping on as well. You'd be surprised how many times I've seen women pull out mini-netbooks while waiting in some office somewhere.

      So while I wish old Steve nothing but luck and give him credit for taking a company the Pepsi guy had all but killed and bringing them back from the dead, I really think the Macs are gonna be shrinking and going back to what they were pre-hype, which is a tool for graphics designers. i just don't see the wealthy carrying them anymore. Old Steve don't have to worry though, because the iPhone will more than make up for that, but the days of hipsters carrying around Macbooks seems to be ending. Now all I see is mini-netbooks with custom graphics covers everywhere.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    2. Re:Steve Jobs has clout by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The reason there's resistance to SSDs is that they're JUST TOO EXPENSIVE.

      I'm still waiting on the long-term failure data. The takes-years-to-collect-real-life data, not the "how many read-write cycles in a laboratory" data.

    3. Re:Steve Jobs has clout by MudflapSoftware · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My experience differs. My employer does on-campus interviews at around 50 schools nationwide, and over 70% of the potential recruits were equipped with macs.... according to the web logs from a site they were required to visit individually.... Our public web site has seen a marked increase in 'mac' traffic as well.... averaging around 10%, up from 3% a couple of years ago.

    4. Re:Steve Jobs has clout by mlts · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also am waiting on that data. I want to know in the real world how long a SSD sitting on a shelf with data will last in general. How long will it last before enough electrons escape and goes beneath the threshold for discerning a one or a zero (or in the case of MLC, a 0,1,2, or 3.) Two years? Three years? 10-20 years? Because of the way SSDs are, if they can reliably last "X" amount of time, one can keep adding redundancy in the form of ECC and even RAID to bump that factor up to tolerable levels.

      The archival life of SSDs (and flash in general) is important -- especially for people like Aunt Tillie with the photos on the SD card in her camera that are not backed up anywhere else.

  2. Spinning disks have left this customer by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've got an SSD in my laptop, and I couldn't be happier. Its easily lengthened the life of my laptop by about 2 years.

    1. Re:Spinning disks have left this customer by Nichotin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Going from the typical 5.400rpm laptop drive to SSD makes you feel like a 14 year old girl again. Jokes aside, it is really a noticeable difference, even for simple things like opening the start menu. And the best of it, your computer does not slow down so horribly much when multiple applications are accessing the drive. Even netbooks benefit greatly from SSD.

    2. Re:Spinning disks have left this customer by XCondE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree. My Dell Inspiron 1501 is 3 years old and I was ready to replace it because of a failing hard disk.

      Looking for a disk replacement I came across a Silicon Power 128GB 2.5" MLC SSD for A$330. Since it is the same size of the disk shipped with my laptop I can still fit all my stuff and my Ubuntu installation boots in 8 seconds.

      The speed difference is still brutal, even with an encrypted home directory. I am very happy with the upgrade and don't see myself shopping for a new laptop for the time being.

    3. Re:Spinning disks have left this customer by Klinky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ok and how many random 4K write/read IOPs could you get even if you did RAID-1? A few hundred. How many can you get with an SSD? 10,000+. Even if you took all 12 hard drives in your scenario and put them in a RAID configuration you'd still not match the performance of a single SSD. Also no one is saying go out and get a 512GB SSD which is on the bleeding edge of consumer SSD. You can easily find a 64GB SSD for around $125. Also no one needs to buy an Apple notebook.

  3. Re:Durability? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think the write cycle issues aren't as bad as before, but they probably mean physical durability. Drop one and drop a hard drive. The SSD is much more likely to survive, due to no moving parts.

    --
    SSC
  4. Re:ridiculous story by stoanhart · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was under the impression that with the wear leveling algorithms these drives use, and the higher quality chips used for SSDs, the lifetime under typical laptop usage is expected to far exceed a spinning platter drive.

    Makes sense, really. Most disk access is reading (booting the OS, opening applications, loading libraries, viewing images/videos, listening to music), and this doesn't wear out the memory cells. Unless you're doing heavy disk work like video editing or serious photography, or running some sort of highly accessed write intensive database, I'd bet on SSDs to outlast HDDs. After all, an HDD is usually spinning and thus being worn out, even when no files are accessed.

  5. Hybrid SSDs are the Near Term Future by Proudrooster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    SSDs are still not a good value for their MBTF (Mean Time Between Failures). I predict the hybrid harddrive/SSD combo drive will be the near term winner (assuming laptops don't all get as small as the Air). I have had several friends recently purchase and install hybrid drives in their laptops and they gave it a "thumbs up" for performance but are very paranoid about failure, so they backup much more frequently. Additionally, these drives spin down quite regularly which increase battery life, however there are concerns about the duty cycle of spinup/spindown before failure. Example Hybrid Drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591&cm_re=hybrid_hard_drive-_-22-148-591-_-Product

  6. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the long term? Yes I'm sure flash, or some other solid state, based storage will replace magnetic disks. It is just plain faster, not to mention other benefits. Our storage subsystem is by far the slowest thing we've got, improvements would be welcome.

    In the short term? Hell no. SSDs are useful in special cases, but not for general use and not showing any signs of reaching a crossover soon.

    I mean if I wanted to meet my storage needs with SSDs only, I'd have to spend on the order of $10,000. Granted, my needs for storage exceed most users, but still. It costs me all of about $500 to get them met with HDDs. Even if I left backups to magnetic media and just went with SSDs for primary storage I'd still be out about $4000. I could replace every component in my system, including my professional NEC monitor, for less than that.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have SSDs, but they have to come down in price a shitload before they are realistic for the regular desktop. Right now, SSDs have 3 uses:

    1) Systems that don't need a lot of storage and space/power are a premium. The Air is a good example. If you can live with 64GB of storage, then flash is ok price wise. Still expensive per GB, but since you have few GBs it isn't bad. If all you are doing is running basic apps then that works fine. You can't hold much media or large games or whatnot, but not all systems need that.

    2) Systems where performance beyond what reasonable HDD solutions can offer is needed. Audio production sees this. New virtual instruments are getting extremely complex. Tons and tons of samples played back in heavy layers. You can't load them all in RAM (without amazing amounts of RAM) and they just overload disks when you try to stream it all. SSDs can be useful here. While a $10,000-20,000 fiber channel array would probably do the trick, a $4000 SSD will also do the trick and not only cost less but be easier to deal with.

    3) Ultra high end storage solutions that need performance beyond anything HDDs can offer. With databases, you can run in to this. Heck they had SSDs back before they were popular. Expensive, expensive devils, but tons of performance. You need this to reach certain performance levels, no amount of disks can handle the IOPs you need. This is where cost just isn't an issue, performance is.

    That's pretty much it. For cheap systems, HDDs reign supreme. They cost less than flash and that is that. For higher end systems, you end up needing more storage than flash can provide at a reasonable cost.

    Before we see flash replace HDDs we will probably see augmentation. Intel, Adaptec, LSI, all are supporting SSDs as a cache for HDDs on various RAID controllers. If this comes down to consumer price levels, could be useful. 1TB of storage for $100 and then $100 more for some flash cache would be doable for many people.

    It'll be a long time before SSDs are the way most people go, however. It is too bad, I want solid state storage now, but there is a big, BIG price gap that has to be covered.

    1. Re:No kidding by antifoidulus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You obviously didn't read the comment, SSDs do in fact have very few guarantees for random write speeds(due to how the SSD writes, things like wear leveling makes it even worse). If you are running real time systems this is a HUGE problem. You need to be sure that your I/O writes will finish within a certain time frame or else your system can start to fall behind. While very few consumers need real time systems there are a lot of people in industry who do.

    2. Re:No kidding by Klinky · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not quite:

      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/short-stroking-hdd,2157-9.html

      Yes it does show that 4 short stroked SAS 15K RPM drives are beating out a single SSD by getting 2500 IOPs in the DB test. But those are older SSDs. Compare to newer SSDs in similar/same benchmark:

      http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/corsair-ssd-roundup_6.html#sect0

      You will see they are bottoming out @ 4K IOPS in worst case scenarios.

      Also contrary to what was suggested earlier, short stroking does not make HDD seek time negligible:

      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/short-stroking-hdd,2157-5.html

      3.8ms for HDD vs 0.1ms for SSD. That's still a big difference.

      You are correct about the low level nature of flash memory, but there are many ways to mitigate this. SSD controllers use multiple channels to read/write banks of flash memory. They have large internal buffers & they also have "waste space", meaning they have extra flash memory that the device can read/write to so as to not hold up the drive. SandForce controllers also use compression and other methods to enhance performance. With proper trim support you do not need to run garbage collection, thus it's really not much different in operation than how a HDD will act, just faster. No modern SSD will make you wait one second while it erases a block of data, they just don't work that way now.

      Even worst case random write speeds outpace standard HDDs. Yes if you short stroke your 15k RPM and buy 6 of them then yipee maybe you can exceed the performance of a single SSD, but then any arguments about saving money buying 6x $400 drives + controller so you can use 5% of their capacity go out the window.

  7. Re:Disk life and data permanence by Dravik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When SSDs fail, they are still readable. So the friend of a friend's uncle wont lose his entire porn collection (life's work). He just won't be able to save that new clip he downloaded.

    --
    The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
  8. Re:I tend to hold on to my tech for years... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I admit I have never owned an SSD and therefore I might be ignorant. Having said that, to the best of my knowledge SSDs use the same standard connectors (SATA) as spinning hard drives. If/when an SSD fails you should be able to buy either another SSD or a spinning hard drive as a drop-in replacement. This situation is no different and no more proprietary than mechanical drives.

    This may be true in general. But the new MacBook Air solders the Flash modules directly to the logic board.

  9. lying with statistics by t2t10 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "US consumer retail market" means people walking into a store and buying a piece of hardware, and it's expressed in terms of money, not units, and people spend a lot more for their Macs than for their PCs. It probably also includes iPhone, iPad, and iPod, and accessories sales, since it refers to Apple share, not Mac share. In terms of units, their share is still around 4-5% at most.