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Colleges May Start Forcing Switch To eTextbooks

An anonymous reader writes "Here's the new approach under consideration by college leaders and textbook manufacturers: 'Colleges require students to pay a course-materials fee, which would be used to buy e-books for all of them (whatever text the professor recommends, just as in the old model).' That may be 'the best way to control skyrocketing costs and may actually save the textbook industry from digital piracy,' proponents claim."

29 of 419 comments (clear)

  1. Students will complain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Currently, students at most universities aren't required to buy textbooks. They can borrow them at the library (frequently on reserve) and save money (at the cost of time and convenience). I can't see this working without some opt-out mechanism at the very least.

    1. Re:Students will complain by AnonymousClown · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What university did you go to?!?

      I don't know of any university where you could do that because professors always want you to have the latest edition; which the library never has or if they do, just one copy - yeah, share that with 40 classmates. They then assign reading and problems out of that particular edition.

      Which is completely asinine - especially for undergraduate courses. I mean really, when was the time there was a break through in accounting, basic physics, chemistry, computer science, psychology, and on and on. A $15 Dover classic is more than adequate for all undergraduate classes and if there is some new ground breaking discovery then have the student look it up in a journal because a textbook is 10 years behind anyway. A new textbook with the same material and some colorful graphics runs what? $150?!?! For absolutely no new material!

      Just one big fucking racket! Professors should be ashamed of themselves.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Students will complain by zeugma-amp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This will also kill the used book market.

      That's the idea.

      --
      This is an ex-parrot!
    3. Re:Students will complain by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Something ye forgot:

      YOU CAN'T RESELL E-TEXTS. When I was in college I used to buy books for about $50 used, get my work out of it, and then sell it for $40 at the end of semester. NET COST: $10.

      Now this e-text idea will prevent us from doing that. It will end-up costing MORE not less.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Students will complain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It sort of depends on what the purpose of the university staff is. In the USA, the purpose for many professors has changed over the last 3 - 4 decades from teaching undergraduates to making a profit through teaching undergraduates. Sweetheart deals with textbook publishers improve the bottom line. It would be particularly nice to have a situation where all students were forced to buy new textbooks for every course, while the textbook publishers were simultaneously relieved of the costs of actually physically printing anything. Without those overheads, there would be a lot more profit to split up between the textbook publishing companies and the professors who choose which textbooks shall be required. You could even afford to reduce the costs of the textbooks by enough to reduce the growing stench of the education industry's rotting values, and still enrich everyone who is important.

      Who needs the used textbook market? That doesn't profit anybody; its only value has been to decrease student costs. When you realize that most USA students are now graduating with a decade of debt to pay off and rather poor career prospects, you will probably also realize that today's students are the new neo-colonial aboriginals. Corporations like to hire new graduates because on the whole they are so deeply in debt that they will blithely ignore unethical corporate actions since they cannot afford to have ethics.

    5. Re:Students will complain by KGBear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is exactly the point. It's the after-market they're going after. Since I decided to go back to school I have been spending about a TENTH of what my school's book store (University of Denver) would charge me for the new items. Some books I may sell, some I may want to keep for future reference, and I can choose to do that because I got them for cheap. What's more, buy turning this into a fee, they are taking away from me the freedom to pick where I want to buy my books now! What's worse than a new tax? A new tax payed to a private corporation! (which my university happens to be)

    6. Re:Students will complain by Raenex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Solution: Don't sell your book back for 20% to the bookstore. Sell it either directly to another student for 50% or sell it elsewhere. Back when I was in college there was a street vendor who would buy back used books, but his prices were even worse than the bookstore. If I recall correctly, the university bookstore was pretty good, at least much better than 20%.

      There are so many ways to hook up buyers and sellers in today's connected world that you're really failing if you can't find an alternative with a 20% vs 90% spread.

  2. Just a way to kill the used book market... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The irony of this proposal is that many professors, realizing that book prices are just obscene in the academic market, are preparing their own materials and giving them to the students for the cost of printing them.

    This is clearly just an attempt by the textbook marketers to kill the secondhand book sellers.

    As my wife says, "calculus has not changed much in the last 6 years, but my textbook has gone through 3 revisions in that time!"

    1. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As my wife says, "calculus has not changed much in the last 6 years, but my textbook has gone through 3 revisions in that time!"

      I don't think basic calculus has changed in a few centuries.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is exactly right. Somehow the fine article proposes "saving the textbook industry" as something we'd actually want to do. The textbook industry adds no value to your education. All value comes from the university. The best thing for everyone, student, professor, parent, or administrator is for the textbook industry to die and be replaced by online, collaborative, peer reviewed textbooks. The textbook publishing industry adds no value, and is nothing but a parasite on the education industry.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure it has. Undergrad calculus has gotten a lot simpler in the past 50 years.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think basic calculus has changed in a few centuries.

      Are you sure the way we teach calculus hasn't changed at all in that time?

      Maybe - it's gotten worse. I didn't truly understand it until I had physics. Math texts are garbage. Except for maybe the IEEE's Calculus Tutorial. That had applications and you actually learned what the hell Calculus was invented for in the first place.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    5. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by WitnessForTheOffense · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not that they should, but the textbook industry does add quite a bit of value to the academic experience if your instructors just teach from the text, use quizzes provided by the publisher, and only provide their own feedback when there are questions.

      That being said, I'm all for instructors having to actually develop the material for their courses. The problem is that they can claim they don't have time to develop their courses alone because they're teaching so many students because enrollment is up and they don't want to turn anyone away if they don't have to. Though this will depend on the type of college.

      The funny thing is to hear these instructors complain that distance learning is killing their jobs because it's really just exposing the fact that they're choosing to only be conduits of information rather than actual teachers who develop coursework.

    6. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You are exactly right, but the universities will probably get a cut to promote this. Professors get "educational" gifts to require certain textbooks. In the end, the student is just a source of revenue.

    7. Re:Just a way to kill the used book market... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In what way? Not being flippant, I'm genuinely unsure as to what about calculus has changed in the last 50 years.

      I believe the GP was arguing that it's not calculus itself that has gotten easier, but rather the presentation, rigor, etc. in the way it is taught.

      Aside from the use of calculators, mathematical software and such, which is not insignificant, calculus itself is not easier.

      I learned calculus (not too long ago actually) from Tom Apostol's text, which pulls no punches in terms of mathematical rigor and formalism. Not proofs for the sake of proofs, mind you, but formalism that demonstrates the power of calculus and helps you to understand how it works.

      The reason I was taught that way was because I chose to take a calculus sequence intended for math majors, though. At my institution, fifty years ago, everyone learned from a book like Apostol (perhaps another text, dumbed down slightly).

      Today, textbooks are often about case study problems, using your graphing calculator, etc. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it has shifted the focus away from rigorous formalism (which most students have more trouble with) and to types of problems and methods of solution that are, on the whole, easier and simpler. The overall content is still there, but the presentation and methodology is, I think, more user-friendly to many students.

  3. I'm guessing it's not about cost control, really. by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They just want a more effective way to shut used-textbook merchants out of the market so they can more fully exploit their students.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  4. I expect the following: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Book prices will still remain close to $100.
    You'll lose your right to resell your old books.
    Accessibility for us disabled folks will be an artificial extra cost, to satisfy the imaginary property brigade who think text-to-speech isn't a right.

  5. Textbooks are a total scam by EmagGeek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By the time I was in grad school at GaTech, undergraduate courses were spinning revs every quarter, and the only thing that would change would be the problems. This eliminated the book buy-back market almost entirely, because profs of course would require problems from the book.

    Undergrad level calc has not changed in the last 20 years. There's no reason someone shouldn't be able to use a calc book handed down from a parent or older sibling. Yet, term after term, every student is nearly compelled to spend $140 on a new book.

    It's no wonder our educational system from cradle to PhD is a complete failure. Institutions are too focused on productizing and profiteering rather than growing the world's best talent.

    1. Re:Textbooks are a total scam by IICV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How about we stop caring if students just copy the right answer from somewhere on their homework? It's a participation grade anyway - the goal of homework isn't for the student to take some questions home and return one day with the answer (that's what grad school is for), the goal is for the student to spend some time thinking about the problems and trying to work them out; ideally successfully but the important part is the thinking and working, not having a correct answer. If the student really wants to know what the solutions are and how to work them out, they'll come in to discussion section or office hours (or lecture!).

      And if the student is the sort of person who just copies the right answers from somewhere, then he's fucked for the quizzes, midterms and finals anyway.

      Basically, we care waaaay too much about whether or not people have correct answers on homework. It's like grading a weight training class on how far up people can lift their weights, and then complaining that some people use a crane - that's your own damn fault for losing sight of the fact that the metric is not the goal in and of itself. Those people will fail during the final anyway (when you have to wrestle a grizzly bear).

  6. Why are costs skyrocketing? by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Has the cost of paper and shipping gone up substantially in the past few years? If not, I don't see how ebooks will amount to some sort of major cost savings for a textbook manufacturer. All other costs are the same in an ebook. As almost everybody else in this thread has already deduced, this is more about shutting out the used book market.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  7. Bullshit... by nebaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We are not paying all that money just for the textbook material, we are paying for the knowledge of the professors, and the shared experience with other people. Putting additional restrictions on the materials themselves for profit goes against the entire ethos of open information sharing, which is the cornerstone of university research.

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
  8. eBooks vs. Used Books by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful

    e-Books are generally DRM-controlled to the extent that students can't sell them as used textbooks. This actually increases the price over paper books in most situations.

  9. Renting, not buying by hachete · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No way is anyone going to be *buying* any books. You'll be renting it.

    --
    Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
  10. Re:Victom of eTextbook by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh no not typos!

    Once is a typo. Twice is not knowing how to spell the word.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  11. A "Rental" system might be a good model. by OITLinebacker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not work with the local "bookstore" to have available for a semester's rent an e-reader (kindle, iPad, Nook, etc) pre-loaded with all of your books? With some additional coverage for insurance for lost/stolen/broken devices. Nice for the students to just submit their course listing to the bookstore before the semester break and come back and get all of your "books" for roughly the same price (or cheaper if the e-versions would actually be reasonably priced...lol) as buying the hardcopy. The extra bonus is getting the reader (and possibly all of it's apps) to use of the semester. Seems like everybody could profit from the deal. Well, not the paper mills and printing press folks.

  12. Re:I expect the following: by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Book prices will still remain close to $100.
    You'll lose your right to resell your old books.

    A bigger issue is that you lose the right to retain your textbooks. Given rapid edition changes, the right to resell was often of limited value and theoretical anyway; OTOH, most of the people I know kept many of their textbooks and occasionally reference them even a decade or more after leaving school; during high school, one of the ways I learned things outside of school was from my fathers old college texts.

  13. Re:"A few centuries"... by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In acentury... sure. A few centuries? Nope. q.v. Cauchy's wrong theorem. Basically two centuries ago, analysis was a mess and it took a lot of hard work from Cauchy, Fourier, Weierstrass, Dedekind and many others to clean things up and get to a solid foundation with the characterisation of the reals as the unique ordered field and the epsilon-delta definition of continuity.

    Is that something that is taught in an undergraduate Calculus sequence? You know Calc 1-3? Nope.

    An undergraduate Calculus sequence can be taught quite well with a Dover classic for $20 and it'd probably be superior at that to today's overpriced crap that does nothing but put extra money in the pocket of some academic.

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

  14. Other downsides of this model and the rental model by jirka · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A downside to expensive books, renting textbooks, long textbooks, and now DRM ebooks is that students will just return them or not even have access to them after finishing a class. This is VERY BAD for education. For one, students should keep their calculus book throughout their college time. Otherwise you can't look up things you'll need later. Courses are not independent islands. You need what you've learned previously, and unless you are a genius and memorized everything ...

    We need to push for either free open source non DRM textbooks (in my view the NC clause is permissible) or at least very cheap paper textbooks. Now if students didn't complain about their textbooks lacking color and being an old edition then it would be easier to just use a cheap Dover printed textbook. So the students are to blame for some of this as well.

    Jiri

  15. Re:Save the textbook industry? by yankpop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet the professors are told that they need to use the new material and they force it down on the students ...

    I'm not interested in forcing a new textbook on my students, and I'm quite happy to allow them to use an older edition. The problem is that those older editions become harder and harder to find as time passes. After a semester or two it doesn't matter if I force the students to use the newest edition, because only the newest edition is available.

    As many others have suggested, profs could be providing their own reading as pdfs. Which I plan to do, eventually, when I have the time. But since this kind of activity isn't recognized as scholarly work unless it actually gets published by an actual publishing company, I can't afford the time, at least until I get tenure.