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Microsoft Charging Royalties For Linux

andydread writes "It seems Microsoft's campaign to scare manufacturers away from open source and Linux in particular is proceeding at full force. The latest news is from Digitimes out of Taiwan. Apparently Microsoft is threatening Acer and Asustek with having to pay Microsoft a license fee for the privilege of deploying Linux on their devices. This time, it's in the form of Android and Chorme OS. So basically, this campaign is spreading to PC vendors now. What are the implications of this? Does this mean that if I build PCs with Linux (Ubuntu/ChromeOS/Fedora) and sell them I am at risk of getting sued by Microsoft? "

34 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. Nicely twisted summary by weachiod · · Score: 5, Insightful
    How wonderfully twisted summary. Even the article doesn't say Microsoft is demanding license for installing linux. It says Acer and Asustek should patent license fees just like everyone else:

    As Android is an open platform, vendors of Android handsets have to pay royalty fees of at least US$10-15 per handset for licensed use of the patents concerned, the sources explained.

    There are only several Taiwan-based handset vendors and only HTC has signed for licensed use of Microsoft patents, leaving Acer and Asustek being the targets for the royalty charge, the sources indicated.

    What a surprise, HTC pays license fees so they aren't asked to do so!

    I don't like software patents either, but development does take its time and money and you currently still have to play by the rules like everyone else. Just because you're not selling as many devices as HTC doesn't mean you don't have to pay the same royalties. Even Google, like every other company, is asking for patent royalties, so why suddenly Microsoft shouldn't? Sure, hate the software patents, but twisting this as something like Microsoft demanding manufacturers to pay if they want to install Linux is just... wrong.

    1. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You and your damn facts. Can't we just get some nice Microsoft bashing going on?

    2. Re:Nicely twisted summary by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Informative

      In regards to *which* patents are being contested we can probably look at the Motorola Lawsuit to see just what Asus is being expected to pay for:

      Microsoft says Motorola is violating nine patents "that are essential to the smartphone user experience, including synchronizing email, calendars and contacts, scheduling meetings, and notifying applications of changes in signal strength and battery power."

      So they aren't being sued for "linux" they're being sued for the software prebundled along with the kernel and cell phone related patents.

    3. Re:Nicely twisted summary by robbak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They are being sued for 'computer', in other words.

      To the original poster: You live on planet earth. You therefore are liable to being sued by Microsoft.

      --
      Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    4. Re:Nicely twisted summary by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't like software patents either, but development does take its time and money and you currently still have to play by the rules like everyone else. Just because you're not selling as many devices as HTC doesn't mean you don't have to pay the same royalties. Even Google, like every other company, is asking for patent royalties, so why suddenly Microsoft shouldn't? Sure, hate the software patents, but twisting this as something like Microsoft demanding manufacturers to pay if they want to install Linux is just... wrong.

      From HERE:

      The patents in question relate to synchronizing e-mail, calendars and contacts, scheduling meetings and notifying applications of changes in signal strength and battery power, Microsoft said in a statement

      Really? synchronizing email, calendars and contacts? Doesn't the iphone do that? Why is MS not suing Apple? Wait, didn't my Palm Treo do that? Hell, my wife's old Palm Pilot did that. Before all that, Eudora did it. So, in other words, this is nothing new, as far as the software goes. The only difference is the hardware. So why is MS not suing Apple, Palm or any of the other software applications that do this stuff... you know, like any OS anywhere that runs on a battery powered device or does email? Oh, that's right, because the whole point is to scare Acer, Asus and other smaller manufacturers from supporting Android.

      This is not about development costs. How much software development cost went into patenting an idea that's been around since before Windows for Workgroups. This is legal blackmail, nothing more. HTC is paying MS off because it was probably cheaper than a lawsuit (and probably gets the money back in WinMo7 licensing deals). This is about companies installing software that isn't written by MS. This is about not paying licensing fees, BECAUSE OPEN SOURCE HAS NO LICENSING FEES!!!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:Nicely twisted summary by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry to pull you back to the real world... any patent that has been issued and has not expired or invalidated, is valid. It's a simple as that.

      Whether you think it's a legitimate patentable invention doesn't matter. As long as the patent office thinks it is, then the patent will be issued. If you think it's not valid for whatever reason, you will have to ask a judge to invalidate it. And until they agree with you and invalidate the patent, it is valid.

    6. Re:Nicely twisted summary by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They are using Linux. MS is demanding royalties each time they use Linux. Thus they are charging for Linux.

      As far as we know, they're not demanding such fees for Symbian or MacOS.

      Of course, nobody ever knowingly demands royalties for invalid patents depending on the high cost of court and the near random nature of court decisions to make their victims pay up...

    7. Re:Nicely twisted summary by weachiod · · Score: 5, Informative

      The whole story is bullshit too, as AsusTek has denied Microsoft asking for royalties.

    8. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yet another "I'm right and you're wrong because these are the rules and rules shouldn't be broken because they're the rules" post. Circular reasoning sucks balls in any context.

    9. Re:Nicely twisted summary by sjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The wheel was patented a few years ago. I think it's safe enough to say it would never survive even a cursory review of prior art.

      It would (unfortunately) still have to go to court eventually, but that doesn't make it valid, it just makes the legal system insane.

      Sorry to pull you back into sanity.

    10. Re:Nicely twisted summary by jrumney · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems their strategy is to target Windows customers that are starting to make the switch to a Linux based OS. Probably in an attempt to scare them back onto the Windows path, but I hope suing their customers backfires on them.

    11. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Auroch · · Score: 4, Funny

      The wheel was patented a few years ago. I think it's safe enough to say it would never survive even a cursory review of prior art.

      It would (unfortunately) still have to go to court eventually, but that doesn't make it valid, it just makes the american legal system insane.

      Sorry to pull you back into sanity.

      Fixed it for you! We have (for the moment...) sane laws up north. You may call us your hat, but we canadians refer to you as our balls (or ass, depending on how magnanimous we're feeling...)

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    12. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry to pull you back to the real world... any patent that has been issued and has not expired or invalidated, is valid. It's a simple as that.

      If a patent is issued in error or in contravention of the law, it's not valid. It's as simple as that.

      If you think it's not valid for whatever reason, you will have to ask a judge to invalidate it. And until they agree with you and invalidate the patent, it is valid.

      No, upon the judge finding it invalid the government will start treating it as invalid. It was invalid all along.

      It's like unconstitutional laws: segregation and the "separate but equal" doctrine didn't suddenly become unconstitutional when the courts woke up in the 1950s and 60s. They were unconstitutional since Amendment XIV was ratified. Court rulings don't change basic facts, they change what facts the government will admit to as being true.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    13. Re:Nicely twisted summary by weicco · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nope. I think don't you understand patents.

      If this IS a Microsoft scheme to enforce usage of their OS, surely it'd backfire, considering the manufacturers don't want to pay royalties as it is?

      If manufacturers don't want to pay royalties then they have to switch to a country that doesn't recognize patents. Otherwise they can be taken to court and ordered to pay hefty fines + pay hefty royalties or pay hefty fines + stop manufacturing.

      I think it would encourage makers to use Open Source even further.

      This is a question about patents, not copyrights. Open Source doesn't cover you from patent suits. And unless you didn't notice, TFA is about vendors using Open Source.

      Patents have upsides and downsides. I'm not sure how they balance. It seems that at least in the software world there's more downsides than upsides to put it nicely.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    14. Re:Nicely twisted summary by the_womble · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the patent for the wheel was granted in Australia

    15. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Shihar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      like software patents either, but development does take its time and money and you currently still have to play by the rules like everyone else. Just because you're not selling as many devices as HTC doesn't mean you don't have to pay the same royalties. Even Google, like every other company, is asking for patent royalties, so why suddenly Microsoft shouldn't? Sure, hate the software patents, but twisting this as something like Microsoft demanding manufacturers to pay if they want to install Linux is just... wrong.

      Shit like this is why the cell phone industry is in as sorry of a shape as it is. Mobile devices are hotter than hell right now. EVERYONE makes them in fucking China. The only thing you need as a producer is to design some hardware from some off the shelf components, add your spin on it, and flip on a switch in China. What is happening? Not this.

      What is happening is that only people armed to the teeth with both piles of money and patents dares step a foot into this market. Every single pissant start up Silicon Valley should be building a phone, but instead it is limited to only people armed to the teeth for a legal fight. This is fucked up, and for a consumer, it is hitting you in the pocketbook. Further, absolutely none of these patents are novel. It isn't like a company hits on a great idea no one will ever think of and patents it to protect themselves. What is happening is that everyone is patenting the obvious next step, and than suing when everyone goes to take that obvious next step.

      What people forget is that patents are not some sort of moral fucking right. They are a completely artificial creation made by governments. It is a government granted monopoly, and it isn't granted for some fucked up sense of morality. It is granted for the singular reason of "promoting the useful arts". It is written into the fucking US constitution. When it fails at this, we are doing it wrong. If patents are stepping in the way of competition and innovation, they are failing in their singular purpose. Clearly, they are failing.

      Patent law is so horribly fucked up these days there are no words for it. Consumers, small and medium sized businesses, and the economy are getting screwed. Microsoft is leading the charge. They can't compete in an open market, so they swing a government enforced sledgehammer at the competition.

      I almost considered looking into getting a WiMo7 phone, but after this sort of anti-consumer crap, fuck those guys.

    16. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Looking up the details, the patents are for "synchronizing email, calendars and contacts, scheduling meetings, and notifying applications of changes in signal strength and battery power". Last I checked, none of those are included in the Linux kernel - they are part of the Android middleware/OS, and/or apps the vendors added.

      In fact, a bit more research shows that yes, Symbian, Palm, Nokia, and some other Linux embedded vendors are in fact already licensing the patents (and have been for *years* - the first article I found was from 2005). And Apple has patent cross licensing agreements with Microsoft (and likely all of those other companies) as well. This is about Taiwanese companies trying to make cheap phones by avoiding the patent license fees everyone else has already agreed are valid. And those companies probably also violate Apple patents (in Apple's opinion, at least) - to that matter, Apple has already sued HTC (a Taiwanese company paying MS fees now as well) for this.

    17. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Noitatsidem · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who the fuck modded you as flamebait? It's a valid point. Microsoft has tons of extremely broad patents that describe really basic functionality of an operating system- Nothing innovative on their part. I'd love to see them start threatening Apple... Or they could do something even more insane, like sue their own customers: I really like MS's self-destructive tendencies, it really puts a smile on my face knowing that their own customers can't trust Microsoft not to sue them- I wonder what this will do for the Windows market share? Hey, if a major vendor ever did decide to stop shipping windows all together (or hell, even downplay Windows) I can definitely see Apple-like ad's going "LOLVIRUS" while at the same time going "By the way, it can surf the web, you can make .docx files with openoffice/libreoffice, the OS supports 3D acceleration, etc. while still being cheaper than a certain other proprietary operating system. Let's face it: IF these vendors do ever move away from Windows, they may not kill it, but they could certainly put a fairly big dent in its market- Imagine the world with two Linux based vendors with the same market share as OSX, or even one for that matter. That's a pretty big dent. Also, I'm getting ready to be modded down for thinking, as it seems to be a recent trend on /.

      --
      Feel free to mod me down, just know that unlike some Anonymous Cowards I'm not afraid to express my views as myself.
    18. Re:Nicely twisted summary by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Really? synchronizing email, calendars and contacts? Doesn't the iphone do that? Why is MS not suing Apple?

      Because Apple has a cross licensing deal with MS and recognizes the patents.

      Also you can patent specific implementations and methodologies. It's entirely possible and likely that other email synchronization systems can be employed that don't run afoul of Microsoft's patents.

      As to Palm I'm sure they had their own treasure trove of patents which they both defended and cross licensed with Microsoft.

      Just because Open Source has no licensing fees doesn't mean it doesn't have to respect the law that closed source software abides by.

    19. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also you can patent specific implementations and methodologies. It's entirely possible and likely that other email synchronization systems can be employed that don't run afoul of Microsoft's patents.

      In theory, yes. But in practice you can patent the "what" and not just the "how"

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft says Motorola is violating nine patents "that are essential to the smartphone user experience, including synchronizing email, calendars and contacts, scheduling meetings, and notifying applications of changes in signal strength and battery power."

      What a sad, sad state of affairs. Any moron given enough time fiddling with several devices will come up with the idea that maybe it would be cool to sync email, calendars, and contacts. Maybe even schedule a meeting or two. Software patents are not necessarily bad, but I would call it near criminal to allow corporations to patent the obvious just because their legal departments are a step ahead of everyone else. A bad patent is a bad patent, and all the major companies agreeing to play along because it costs less to litigate than it does to pay (and protects them from needing to litigate occasionally) does not make it any worse than it is. I raise my glass to any company in any market with the guts to ignore those patents even if it is just to undercut the competition.

      And here's to the poster. Even though he's "overstating" the situation, the ensuing discussion brought the patent thing up. I had no idea it was that bad.

    21. Re:Nicely twisted summary by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 4, Informative

      [...]patent license fees everyone else has already agreed are valid.

      Europe, India, China. I think most inhabitants of our planet still live in jurisdictions that would not recognize such a patent.

    22. Re:Nicely twisted summary by Even+on+Slashdot+FOE · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also you can patent specific implementations and methodologies. It's entirely possible and likely that other email synchronization systems can be employed that don't run afoul of Microsoft's patents.

      In theory, yes. But in practice you can patent the "what" and not just the "how"

      In theory, the "what" is patented, but in court, it is the "vaguely looks like/competes with my product" that prompts the suit.

    23. Re:Nicely twisted summary by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Microsoft apologist...you probably own a Zune.

    24. Re:Nicely twisted summary by MonsterTrimble · · Score: 3, Funny

      Everyone knows Canada has no balls.

      Ironic coming from someone with 'Eunuch' in their name.

      --
      I call it 'The Aristocrats'
  2. Blowback by symbolset · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apparently in completely unrelated news, Asus is deprecating Windows Phone 7. This even though Google totally cleaned Garmin's clock on the free navi thing.

    As always, Garmin-Asus seeks the best for our consumers either on Android platform or on Windows platform. However, we see the potential of Android platform devices, so we are focusing on Android platform currently. - Steven Tu

    Meanwhile Microsoft's VP, Corporate Communications Frank X. Shaw is over on Twitter right now trying to repair the damage done by today's CNN Money report. In case y'all want to wander over and lend him a hand.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  3. Microsoft has software patents, wants licenses. by PhilipTheHermit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I understand the article correctly, Microsoft has software patents on a number of technologies related to smartphones, and is seeking royalties from some portable electronics companies for their use of technology covered by the patents.

    Generally a "ho hum" situation, BUT, Microsoft seems to be using the situation to pressure the companies to stop using Android and Chrome on the devices. Seems to be.

    If anything, rather than proving that Microsoft is some sort of terrible evil, this proves that SOFTWARE PATENTS are a terrible evil.

    We should never allow ANYONE to patent something that is not a physical item or process. The idea that a company can write up a vague description of how some software product MIGHT work SOMEDAY, if SOMEONE decides to develop it, and get the patent office to grant them the right to act as a gatekeeper for that idea, should be abhorrent to all people with scientific and technical backgrounds.

    I think that about sums up the situation.

    Now, perhaps I'm wishing for the moon here, but if anyone from the patent office, Congress, or the Obama administration is a Slashdot reader, this would be an excellent situation to use to show the average representative in Congress why, exactly, software patents should be abolished. "Here are two companies that are not using Microsoft products, and not stealing secrets from Microsoft, and in fact not using any Microsoft property at ALL, whose businesses are being interfered with because Microsoft was granted some software patents and they're using them as bargaining chips. This situation is ridiculous and should be addressed. (Etc, etc)".

    --
    Thus spake the master programmer:
    "When the program is being tested, it is too late to make design changes." (Tao)
  4. Re:Translation Please by kimvette · · Score: 4, Funny

    Easy!

    "gee, that is an awful nice handset you have there. It would be a damn shame if something were to happen to it. Perhaps you would be interested in our protection services?"

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  5. Asus denies it by guyminuslife · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here.

    Terribly summary, by the way.

    --
    I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
  6. Slashdot spreads the FUD by guanxi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I doubt it's intentional, but if Microsoft wanted to use their patent portfolio to scare businesses away from Linux (and I don't know that it's true), they probably would fantasize about reading this on the front page of Slashdot:

    Does this mean that if I build PCs with Linux (Ubuntu/ChromeOS/Fedora) and sell them I am at risk of getting sued by Microsoft?

  7. It's misleading, if you don't understand the law by John+Sokol · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Rule 1. Anybody can sue anyone for anything.
    Rule 2. If they fail to respondent in general the one who filed the suit wins.
    Rule 3. If there is no ground for the suit it's easy to get it tossed out.
    Rule 4. The golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules, in other words the one with the most expensive lawyer wins.
    Rule 5. 90% of civil cases are settle out of court. This is mostly a poker game, with bluffs gambits deceptions , misdirection, Sleight of hand, deceit, corruption and hocus pocus.
              A company like Microsoft is counting on the other party not doing there homework, not being as well connected, or not having as much leverage with politicians and judges.
    Rule 6. Carrying a bluff all the way to court, and getting called on it would be devastating for a company like Microsoft. The best thing that could ever happen is Microsoft actually following through with it's threat.
    Rule 7. Judges are held responsible for there judgments. I have noticed that they will do anything to defer to a previous similar judgment by another court on a related case rather then actually commit to a decision that they make themselves.
          So in court what mostly happens is both parties are presenting similar cases in which the courts decided in there favor and the judge then decides who make the more relevant argument.

    I have seem a similar strategy used to shake down companies for patent infringement on bogus patents.
    The corporation being sued will look at this from a strictly profit and loss perspective, it's cheaper and more profitable to remain on good terms with Microsoft.
      So they start by shaking down a small plays because they know they will kowtow, and Microsoft will even kick them back a discount or some other bullshit so it really doesn't cost them.
    But this sets up a legal precedent establishing the legitimacy of Microsoft's claims.
    They then can go after larger or more resistant players.
    After a certain critical mass, it will be much more difficult to argue that the claims are fraudulent in court.
    The EFF & GNU could be in for one heck of a battle if they don't intervene sooner rather then later.

    --
    I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
  8. Re:Nothing to do with Linux. by DeBaas · · Score: 3, Informative

    If Asus does not supply Exchange compatibility they will loose business. It is to many users an important feature.

    They should sell the outlook compatibility as a separate app or license priced at roughly the cost of the license. That way they only have to pay for users that use the functionality as well as make clear that this is not them but MS which making you pay the 15 USD

    --
    ---
  9. Re:Installing Linux... by pedantic+bore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yup.

    Whoever wrote the summary should have read the article...

    Here's my summary:

    Microsoft: "Hey, smartphone makers, you're using some of our patented technology."

    Smartphone makers: "Can't disagree with you."

    Microsoft: "So, you should give me some money."

    Smartphone makers: "Yeah, I guess."

    Microsoft: "If you were already paying for them by buying a windows license, then we'd already square. But since you're not, then just give me a few bucks per unit. Cool?"

    Smartphone makers: "Cool. Just don't tell the folks at slashdot, because they'll twist this around to make it sound like you're trying to intimidate us into not using Android, rather than us trying to license technology from you that we want to use in our phone."

    Microsoft: "Yeah, and then somehow tie this in to their precious desktop linux."

    Smartphone makers: "(snort)"

    --
    Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
  10. Settling does not create legal precedent by snowwrestler · · Score: 3, Informative

    Settling a lawsuit does not create a legal precedent. When you settle a suit, what actually happens, legally, is that the plaintiff withdraws their complaint. As far as the court is concerned, the legitimacy of the claims was never examined and the case was never decided. So no precedent.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.