Swedes Show Intel Sandy Bridge Running BIOS-Successor UEFI

An anonymous reader writes "SweClockers.com has gotten it hands on a Intel Sandy Bridge motherboard running Unified Extensible Firmware Interface, the long awaited successor of age-old BIOS. Among the differences is a significantly more user-friendly interface, the ability to boot from drives larger than 2 TB and faster boot times. Check it out, on video, in Swedish." Here's an Google's translation of the article.

Comments

UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Freak]

I have a three year old "Intel Desktop Board" that can boot via UEFI, boot to 2TB+ drives, etc.

It's not exactly new. (And I have a server from 2001

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[__aardcx5948]

Not new, but not very common. I suppose that it's mainly the large harddrives that push for this to get out to the mainboards..

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[gilesjuk]

EFI has been in Macs ever since they went Intel. Pretty common.

Of course, you don't get to play with it, but then why would you need to?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[marcansoft]

UEFI is extremely common. Modern laptop makers use it as a way to have a modern BIOS (e.g. InsydeH2O) instead of the horrible cesspool of 16-bit code that are traditional BIOSes. At least Acer and Sony seem to be using this kind of setup for all of their recent laptops for a few years now, and I'm pretty sure quite a few other manufacturers are doing the same.

Unfortunately, most of the time the EFI features are completely inaccessible to the user and OS. They just add in the usual BIOS emulation layer, the boot process is designed to resemble a ye olde BIOS, the Setup menu is modeled after a ye olde BIOS, EFI services are unavailable, there's no EFI console or boot from EFI media. Sadly, the goal seems to make it easier for them to make the BIOS, not to make it more useful to end users.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Nerdfest]

What's going on with OpenBIOS? It showed a lot of promise ...

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Jazz-Masta]

I have a three year old "Intel Desktop Board" that can boot via UEFI, boot to 2TB+ drives, etc.

It's not exactly new. (And I have a server from 2001

It was common on Intel's high-end server boards, then it came to their entry level boards a few years ago. Now it is making it into the mainstream desktop boards. However, what Intel had on their server boards was quite slow to boot.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[joib]

NIH?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, you don't get to play with it, but then why would you need to?

The only boards that are worth having are the ones that validate my opinion of myself as an ubergeek. My entire self worth springs from my ability to adjust pointless hardware parameters through a poorly designed interface cobbled together by Korean sweatshop developers.

I will never buy a motherboard that doesn't allow me to set the Clock Phase Skew to 0.25, or and the Memory Overdrive Voltage to 1.79. Those are the correct values. If your Apple motherboard doesn't have a byzantine boot menu that allows you to set them, then you're being kept in a walled garden. If you allow Steve Jobs to be an authoritarian control freak who prevents you from setting your memory timing to 4-3-3-2, then why don't you just an iPad and a Wii, and the rest of us will use the real computers.

Now if you excuse me, I need to change the fuel injectors in my car. It's getting near winter, and as the air density increases I need to change the fuel air mixture. It's important that you stay on top of this. Only sheep leave it the same year round.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, the goal seems to make it easier for them to make the BIOS, not to make it more useful to end users.

The goal should actually be to make interaction with the BIOS completely unnecessary for 99.9% of end users.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Cyberax]

We use EFI to boot a Linux image loaded into EFI flash. So it takes less than a second to start the kernel (around 500 milliseconds - we haven't timed it precisely).

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[TheRaven64]

OpenBIOS is an implementation of OpenFirmware, which is an independent IEEE standard implemented by multiple vendors. It was, therefore, completely inappropriate for an Intel platform.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[camperslo]

The site video requires Flash, so I skipped the video.

The pretty EFI screen makes it look like they're actually expecting the buyers of the board to be using EFI. With the exception of Intel Apple machines, few users actually used the EFI capability on boards that had it.

Although the EFI screen looks nice, those thermometer-like displays for voltage don't really make much sense. It's not like showing a small indication for CPU voltage tells the user anything useful.
If they'd wanted to do that, showing the current drain (or calculating power consumption) of various parts of the system would have been much more interesting.

For some reason they airbrushed out the CPU details from the screen shown. Perhaps that means they were running an unreleased chip under an NDA?

These motherboard articles would be more fun if they said something about compatibility with various OSes, certainly Linux. Some would no doubt be curious if any got OS X running too.

I guess this board doesn't have Linux available to boot from in ROM? These days many might find that a great "safe browsing" malware resistant mode. How about giving motherboards physical switches or jumpers so firmware can be hard wired to read-only for safety?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[geekoid]

um no. Last I checked, Macs weren't really that common in the market. So no,it's not common.

Macs run OSX, so I suppose thats common amongst all computers as well?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean 're-jet the carbuerators' because anyone with a small bit of understanding knows that you don't need to fiddle with fuel injectors, pump etc. You just remap the ECU (or better yet have it adjust itself based on intake air temperature, something pretty much every car since at least OBD-II has had the capability of doing.) Honestly the only think you might need to do is go install your electrical heating system if you live in an area/country that gets cold enough to really freeze the engine bay.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[hairyfeet]

You may be joking but you'd be surprised how many times I have had to tweak BIOS because the defaults are frankly lame. I've seen them with Speedstep/Cool&Quiet disabled, RAM timings on the absolute lowest the RAM is rated for, all the legacy ports nobody uses turned on, etc. Personally I don't think I'd want a machine where I had no ability to ensure the defaults were sane, because in nearly every BIOS I've seen (haven't dealt with EFI yet) the defaults are ultra conservative. I didn't pay all this money to have a quad and 8Gb of RAM just to have the performance hobbled by bad BIOS settings. I have yet to see a BIOS that gives you decent defaults for most hardware.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Lemming Mark]

I've seen a lot of articles about how new and cool UEFI is going to be recently, they must be pushing some publicity to the media who are presumably publishing it on the grounds it sounds clever.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Matey-O]

No. No. The GP is quite right. The same person that wants to tweak their BIOS because they think it's best is the same kinda person that would think changing the fuel injectors would be the Right Thing To Do.

Your Sarcasm meter is off. I suggest you swap it out for a wide-band one. Perhaps in metric.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[JonySuede]

Now if you excuse me, I need to change the fuel injectors in my car. It's getting near winter, and as the air density increases I need to change the fuel air mixture. It's important that you stay on top of this. Only sheep leave it the same year round.

Right-on brother !

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[sumdumass]

Not really.

While I wouldn't change the fuel injectors based on a seasonal change, I have changed them based around performance limitation of stock setups.

I have also changed out the breathing system to take advantage of less restrictive airflow. I have added performance spark plugs and ignition systems in some cases too.

The point is that it's not uncommon to modify the mechanics of a car to obtain some objective. Increased fuel injector size allows quicker/more responsive, and in some cases, more delivery of fuel. Of course you probably wouldn't see much of an improvement if you didn't alter other things too.

Perhaps the person who changes bios settings to tweak them out is the same type of person who would soup up a car to get the most performance possible from them.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[modmans2ndcoming]

mmmmmmm fourth!!!

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[DarkXale]

The demonstration is done on a Sandy Bridge system, explicitly stated in the article. It is indeed unreleased and NDA covered.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Hadlock]

Every Intel brand motherboard since 2007 has had EFI. From what I can tell, this motherboard is an Intel brand, too.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[znerk]

At least Acer and Sony seem to be using this kind of setup for all of their recent laptops for a few years now, and I'm pretty sure quite a few other manufacturers are doing the same.

That's all I needed to hear...
Sony:
The same people who have no qualms about adding a rootkit to your windows-based PC if you have the audacity to put an audio CD in your drive.
The same people that make the VAIO, which is one of the most ridiculous machines to have to work on if any of the hardware fails (and it does, repeatedly and often).
The same people who sold a product, then removed half the features in the name of anti-piracy... causing the pirates to start hacking the DRM on their games, instead of playing with OtherOS.

and

Acer:
The guys who make laptops with an average life expectancy of about 30 days past the warranty period.
The guys who make laptops that you can't work on without a complete tear-down in order to access anything more than the RAM.

Both of these shining beacons of industry say this is good tech? That's a fantastic recommendation (in my eyes, at least), for why we should avoid it like the plague. Who knows what kind of nasty bugs it will add to your system? What's to stop them from logging everything your system does, and/or phoning home constantly?

Seriously, you people should read more Shadowrun and Cyberpunk rulebooks, there's "history" in there that seems to be coming true in the real world.

--
Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[countertrolling]

Some of us just like to tinker on our machines more than actually use them. That little bit of uncertainty of whether it will turn on, or blow up is such a rush..

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[nabsltd]

Perhaps the person who changes bios settings to tweak them out is the same type of person who would soup up a car to get the most performance possible from them.

Or, get the performance that you should get in the first place if the person who picked the default settings for the BIOS was competent.

I would expect that Macs would be even worse about picking the safest defaults, based on the mantra of "it just works".

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[phil4]

It's not exactly new. (And I have a server from 2001

Cool, will it do that "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that. " line for you whenever you want?

Cause I'd be yelling about pod bay doors all day long if it will.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[TinyManCan]

Actually, it is uncommon for someone to modify their automobile. Only 3.5% of people will use non-OEM parts if they are given an equal-cost choice, so the number who would go for an out-of-spec non-OEM replacement/upgrade is even smaller. Basically, you are trying to say that something that occurs with less frequency than coming across someone running Linux on their Desktop is actually common. Bzzzzt.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[sumdumass]

Lol.. Where did you get your numbers from? I mean there are entire industries devoted to little more then performance tuning and souping up cars. Ever heard of Nascar or any of the other related racing sports? I mean hell, there are even blowers, turbos, and quite a few other line of products just for boats let along motorcycles, quads and so on.

Do you really think Jegs or Summit, elderbrock, Heddman, Holly, bully dog, Protune, or the multitude of TV shows like Horsepower, Trucks, offroad, and so on would exist without people tweaking shit on a regular basis? Just to capture less then 3.5% of the auto repair market? I mean seriously, there is a lot of money being pumped into making cars stronger, faster, more responsive, and so on. They've even got performance kits available for 2010 vehicles off the show room floor.

And where is this 3.5% number published at? I'm betting that the question was something like when replacing a broken part on your car, would you go after market if the OEM version was the same price. You see, a question like that already implies a stock equivalent replacement part- that is that the replacement is just to go back to stock. It wouldn't even start to consider a performance increase or anyone who is already souping a car up. If you are replacing the stock parts already with performance parts, you wouldn't even consider a stock part in your quest to replace a bad part.

So sure, there are a lot of cars that won't see anything above stock unless it's the fuel put in it. But there are a hell of a lot more cars getting performance upgrades they you are trying to let on.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[davester666]

But have you found any 2 TB drivers to work with any hardware that you have?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no point in changing the fuel injectors. Fuel injection adjusts the fuel air mixture according to the mass of air entering the intake, and a number of other variables, which takes care of your winter time air density increase. Furthermore, how the mixture is adjusted can be changed in the car's computer.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[snookums]

mmmmmmm fourth!!!

fourth != Forth

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Jane Q. Public]

You haven't checked lately, have you?

Hint: Apple is now a bigger company than Microsoft, and unlike Microsoft they didn't get there by selling their OS. Which, by the way, costs $29.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[644bd346996]

This, even more than the issue of debugging hardware problems, separates Macs from PCs. The hardware on a Mac is properly configured. You don't need to worry about low-level power management settings for a MacBook Pro, because it's already been tuned to be the most efficient laptop on the market. I don't know for sure how Macs handle memory timings, but they don't do anything stupid with memory clock speeds. As for legacy ports, there are none around to hog IRQs.

Now, if it's overclocking you're after, you're out of luck, but that doesn't matter because Apple doesn't make a high-end desktop computer, which is what you want if you're an overclocker.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a NASCAR driver or in another related racing sport is very, very uncommon. Way less common than 3.5% even. In the same way that "ever heard of Linus Torvalds?" does not mean Linux is common on the desktop.

And yes, I do believe that a bunch of companies and TV shows I've never heard of or seen would exist to service a niche market (seriously, I can't find half of them on wikipedia. That sort of thing happens all the time. Companies serving a niche market isn't uncommon. You know there are giant companies pouring money into products for blind people? That's 0.3% right there. Freedom Scientific, GW Micro, and Dolphin Computer Access come to mind quickly for the subset of that subset of companies to aid blind people in using computers.

Guess what? I develop software UI for a living so I happen to know a few obscure companies related to that. Kind of like you have a hardcore car-modding hobby so you can name things that relate to your hobby.

(note: I have no stake in the 3.5% number myself; I have no idea where the GP got it, but it honestly sounds high to me).

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Your.Master]

Just checked now; it's 5-7% depending on who you ask. Maybe as high as ~10% if you restrict yourself US, which the GP didn't and I wouldn't tend to do either (not being American).

Saying it costs $29 is kind of missing the point, because you can't legally install it for that $29 package without also paying Apple for a computer. It's effectively an update price for an OS you're supposed to already own the previous version of from a bundle purchase. If they drop that restriction and allow install on arbitrary hardware, or even just one other vendor, then the price of the OS is relevant.

The market cap of Apple (I wouldn't call Apple a "bigger" company than Microsoft; it has higher market cap and one quarter of higher revenue, but is smaller on just about every count -- and that's okay because being smaller doesn't mean being worse!) isn't really germane to the discussion, in part because both companies make most of their money selling things other than their respective OS.

I think there's a lot of disagreement on what "common" means. I don't think one in twenty is common, I would describe it as uncommon or not rare.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[hairyfeet]

You realize you are bragging you have NO choices right? Sure it is easy to have sane defaults if all you get is Hobson's choice whereas the rest of us actually LIKE being able to choose whether to go dual, triple, or quad, whether to go ULV or high performance, whether to have DDR2 or DDR3 motherboards, etc. I really wouldn't brag about trapped in a walled garden if I were you. Hell IMHO at least a Hackentosh lets you choose more hardware than you get with apple!

And have you looked at their refresh cycle? it sucks! Even when they come out with a new version it is rarely cutting edge, and unless you buy in the first 60 days you are paying premium for old junk. I'm sure Steve loves it, as he must be making a fricking killing selling older hardware like that, but it really ain't nothing to brag about chief. The sad part is you can buy usually twice the hardware for half the price by just buying a Windows PC or laptop and either sticking with Windows, wiping and going Linux, or going dual boot. That is the nice thing about choice you see, by not being locked into a single vendor the economies of scale quickly lower prices.

After Xmas I'll be getting me one of those nice HD5xxx cards (better prices to stay 1 gen behind) along with a nice liquid cooler so my transcodes will be lazing fast. which Apple can you do that with? Oh that's right, unless you spend absolutely insane money on a Mac Pro desktop you get NO choice beyond the Hobson "take it or leave it". No thanks, while the iDevice model might be okay for throw away items like cell phones and PMPs, I actually like keeping my hardware for longer than a refresh cycle. My desktop can go up to 6 core and 32Gb of RAM, how about yours?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[oxygene2k2]

OpenBIOS is used for some OpenFirmware platforms in QEmu mostly.
It's partially obsoleted by three separate OpenFirmware implementations released under BSD-like licensing later-on, which had real world exposure (unlike OpenBIOS, which we wrote from scratch according to the specification).

On real (x86) hardware coreboot (www.coreboot.org) is a better match.
It supports everything from special designs to "standard" systems: Linux, some custom loader, a pcbios implementation, or UEFI (or even OpenBIOS, if you so desire) running after hardware initialization, you're free to decide what to use.
The main problem is that we struggle to keep up with all the new chipsets and CPUs.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[gl4ss]

and about the user interface..

our 386dx had a bios interface that mimicked windows, mouse support and all. the 'windows' were hardcoded menus mostly, but still it did the visual trick.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't the Amiga do the same thing?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

I like soup cars... especially the cream of torino kind. MMMMM... car soup.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Dreadrik]

There will come a time when you get sick of having to worry about choosing between DDR2 or DDR3, different memory speeds and clock timings, CPU sockets, Graphic Cards, driver versions, registry tweaks and stuff like that. I know I was.

I built my own PC's for at least 12 years before I lost interest in harware configuration. I first switched to using different prebuilt PC brands like Dell and IBM (for work) to at least get a computer that was reasonably quiet. Yes I did try out watercooling, but while being more quiet, it was not exactly maintenance free.
The I switched to a MacPro and OS X as my primary workstation at work. Mostly because Visual Studio link times were horrible and also because I found out that OS X is a great developer platform with it's UNIX internals. I will never go back. I happily leave the hardware tuning to Apple so that I can spend my time developing instead.

BTW, my work desktop has 8 cores and can have at least 32 GB of RAM. It's very fast, and what Apple does well is that they don't cheap out when it comes to IO performance, which is what matters most when developing. It was probably really expensive, but it doesn't matter that much when it's company paid.
At home i use a 27" iMac with a quad core i7. Again, quite expensive, but worth every penny specifically because I don't have to worry about hardware configuration.

And just to point out - I don't consider myself a fanboy. I don't care at all about Steve Jobs, or Apple as a company. I just found out that they made great performing, quiet and nice looking computers with a very nice OS that lets me focus on what I do for a living.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

That idiotic statement should require you to hand in your geek card. I've been "playing" with computers and their innards before Apple and PC were household names (hell, before the first PC was even made). There may be no need to play with the BIOS, or such, but I WANT to! I avoid companies that try to control what I do with MY computer. Apple may have started as a hobbyist-friendly company, but now they are just friendly to the millions of drones with more cash than sense.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[tibman]

I believe you but i have a hard time believing you went from building your computers to using pre-built.. Dells. AHHHHHHHH!

Also, there are closed water cooling systems these days.. zero maint required. But it sounds like you found what you like and you have a job that can support it : )

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the point. Sarcasm is, by definition, not supposed to be taken seriously.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[tehcyder]

* whoosh *

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[tehcyder]

My desktop can go up to 6 core and 32Gb of RAM, how about yours?

It doesn't matter, it's white and shiny and looks good in my studio.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[tehcyder]

Apple's success is primarily due to the iPod and iPhone, there is no correlation whatsoever between Apple's size and the proportion of personal computers that use their OS. You don't really believe that more people are using OSX than Windows, do you?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Jane Q. Public]

The "legality" of that is far from settled. The only court case I know about so far, dealing with installing OS X on non-Apple-approved hardware, was not decided in Apple's favor.

And yes, by bigger I meant in revenue, not # of employees. But I believe it is relevant: Microsoft makes most of their money from selling their OS and other products, with a little revenue from hardware. Apple makes lots more money on their hardware, some on their software products, and very little on their OS. So I believe it is quite relevant.

I think "common" falls into perspective when you consider that Apple has been moving more units (laptops, anyway) than HP, or Dell, or Toshiba. To me, that means they're "common".

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh...considering I'm in my mid 40s, and actually go back to the days of PEEK and POKE and pencil tracing chips that "growing out" would be...what? When I'm 70? And who in the hell has to worry about all that stuff anymore? Never hear of plug and play? And here is how I boosted the RAM timings, feel free to play along at home! 1.-start PC 2.-Push Home 3.-put in timings 4.-F10 for save and boot. Tada!

I don't know when the last time you built a PC was, but my 15 year old built his own with NO help from me other than borrowing a single Philips screwdriver. And if you switched to Dell? What, were you nuts? There are plenty of mom & pop shops that would have gave you an awesome machine for barely more than a Dell with out the craptastic Dell experience!

But hey, if you like paying on average double to triple what something costs so you can have behind the curve parts and a shiny case, go right ahead. Free country and all that. Me personally I like not having to throw away my machines every two-three years just to stay not so far behind the curve it is pitiful. And the nice thing is it not only leaves lots more $$$ in my pocket, but I can actually have a machine custom designed for what I WANT it to do, not what Steve thinks is best for me. But hey, I'm sure Ferrari makes nice machines too, I just wouldn't use them for long trips, or going to the store, or off roading or...

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[644bd346996]

All I said is that the hardware you get is generally properly configured and the software works well with it. That, generally speaking, has nothing to do with how well suited the hardware is for your needs or how much choice you had in selecting the hardware.

If Apple makes a product that is targeted at your needs, it's usually a very compelling offering. If they don't, you usually end up being an Apple hater tinged with what looks suspiciously like jealousy.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[sumdumass]

Being a NASCAR driver or in another related racing sport is very, very uncommon. Way less common than 3.5% even. In the same way that "ever heard of Linus Torvalds?" does not mean Linux is common on the desktop.

Guess what? I develop software UI for a living so I happen to know a few obscure companies related to that. Kind of like you have a hardcore car-modding hobby so you can name things that relate to your hobby.

Lol.. You must live in the middle of New York City or Boston or something. More likely, your not even an American or are one that doesn't even live in the US. I didn't say everyone was a NASCAR driver, I pointed to their fan base which is way more then 3.5% of Americans. OF that base, a lot of people do performance upgrades. Almost all diesel trucks produced after 2002 have after market upgraded components on them now. This is because they put a lot more powerful engine in them and then do things like restrict the air flow and tune the computer down in order to pass EPA guidelines. They are the cheapest dollar per horse power gain out there as you can easily see a 100 plus HP gain in many of them just by replacing the stock air induction system, exhaust stacks, and adding a programmer module to it. Hell, I even have a programmer module for my motorcycle.

And yes, I do believe that a bunch of companies and TV shows I've never heard of or seen would exist to service a niche market (seriously, I can't find half of them on wikipedia. That sort of thing happens all the time. Companies serving a niche market isn't uncommon. You know there are giant companies pouring money into products for blind people? That's 0.3% right there. Freedom Scientific, GW Micro, and Dolphin Computer Access come to mind quickly for the subset of that subset of companies to aid blind people in using computers.

So instead of looking into it a little, your standing by the logical fallacy that unless you see it, it doesn't exist. You're simply amazing. No wonder you are posting as AC. Dude, just get out of your big city crap yard and look around. All over the country people are adding aftermarket parts to express themselves, to distinguish their cars from others, to gain performance or fuel economy, or for what every reason. Maybe your state has Smog checks and it isn't as popular, but in the rest of the free country, it is very popular- especially with teens and older males. This has been emboldend in music (particularly country music and rap videos), Movies (like XXX and the Fast and the Furious), not to mention that older big name modifiers had been hired by car companies to produce a line of vehicles because of the success and popularity they had. Look at Carol Shelby for instance. I doubt that you have never heard of a Shelby Cobra or a Shelby charger. There was even a Mustang Shelby version. He owned a dealership in California and souped up cars then sold them off his lot.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Jane Q. Public]

Why are you asking me about things I wasn't even talking about?

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Freak]

Yup. Using Intel's AHCI/RAID drivers, in Windows 7 booted in EFI-native installer rather than BIOS installer, I can install directly to a >2 TB drive.

Re:UEFI has been around for years.

[Anonymous Coward]

And we all know that Open > Closed, if you stick Open in front of something (like OpenBIOS, OpenFirmware, OpenOffice, OpenFridge) then its naturally better then the non-open versions (who wants to use a nasty closed proprietary fridge). At least that is what I have gathered from years of reading Slashdot as I have not actually seen proof of this theory yet.

Nice!

[DWMorse]

Now I can stick one of those new Seagate 3TB drives in my system, instead of relying on ho-hum USB 3.0.

Re:Nice!

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need UEFI for just that. Even 32-bit Server 2003 SP1 and later support GPT and >2TB on data drives.

Re:Nice!

[anUnhandledException]

Not as a boot drive.

Then again not likely anyone "needs" a >2TB boot drive. Still most computers sold only have a single drive and eventually dell, hp, and the like will want to sell 2.1TB drives. Booting from >2TB drive requires UEFI.

Re:Nice!

[sexconker]

Not as a boot drive.

Then again not likely anyone "needs" a >2TB boot drive. Still most computers sold only have a single drive and eventually dell, hp, and the like will want to sell 2.1TB drives. Booting from >2TB drive requires UEFI.

Don't worry.
A drive advertised as "2.1 TB" is actually only 1.91 TB once you correct for the lies.

Re:Nice!

[SimonTheSoundMan]

Youre OS reports the size incorrectly — you still have 2.1 TB, your OS is lying and should say 1.91 TiB, not 1.91 TB.

There are no lies from the drive manufacturers.

I think all but Windows now have the calculations correctly shown. Apple have moved to 1000b to 1kB etc, and many Linux distributions measure as kiB.

Re:Nice!

[znerk]

Not as a boot drive.

Then again not likely anyone "needs" a >2TB boot drive. Still most computers sold only have a single drive and eventually dell, hp, and the like will want to sell 2.1TB drives. Booting from >2TB drive requires UEFI.

Actually, your boot drive should be as small as you can get it, for performance reasons.

Best (home-brew) scenario is several small drives in multiple RAID1 configuration... boot from a pair, use programs from another pair, and use anything else for storage. Gigabit Ethernet makes anything on your network as quick as if it came from a drive in the local machine unless you're running an array of Raptors for storage.

Re:Nice!

[metrix007]

Huh? A terabyte is 1099511627776 bytes, while the harddrives use 1000 bytes instead of 1024 bytes, resulting 1000000000000 bytes, which is false advertising. At least as I understand it.

Re:Nice!

[zach_the_lizard]

Unless you count latency, which is probably going to be a fair bit higher than just a SATA cable. I think SSDs can also pump out more data than a gigabit port can handle.

Re:Nice!

[Zen Hash]

'tera' is the SI prefix for 1,000^4 (or 1,000,000,000,000). So, 'terabyte' does literally mean 1,000,000,000,000 bytes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix

1,099,511,627,776 = 1,024^4 That would be 1 tebibyte(TiB) using the prefixes for powers of 1024 that have been standardized and supported by many international standardization bodies.

The reason people still use SI prefixes when referring to powers of 1024 is because that is what they have been using for a long time prior to the standardization of binary prefixes. Many people don't like change, and many more simply aren't up to date on the new standardized binary prefixes.

Re:Nice!

[znerk]

Yes, your latency will be higher, but not noticeably so for most applications. I will also point out that I was talking about home-based storage solutions, not enterprise. For home-use applications, are you seriously going to tell me you'll notice the difference between 0.2ms (average ping to local network) and 0.01ms (average latency of an SSD) when you want to stream a movie? Many of us couldn't tell the difference between 100ms and 120ms (twitch gamers aside), let alone a couple orders of magnitude smaller difference.
Of course, if you're running a high-speed database on external storage (the only case I can think of off the top of my head where latency would be an issue), you're just being silly... but again, I was talking about home use, not enterprise.

Also, while SATA has a maximum theoretical throughput of 6Gbps (750MB/s), and a Gigabit Ethernet connection has a maximum theoretical throughput of 1Gbps (125MB/s), a typical hard drive's realistic throughput is closer to 80MB/s in actual use. Higher-speed (read:more expensive) drives run more like 105-110MB/s (Again, I'm talking home-use; consumer-grade hardware). Oh, and please note that the data rates I'm quoting are for sustained data transfer, not burst. Burst can go much higher, but I hardly think that dumping your drive's cache should count in a speed test.

To further explain my point, I was able to play Quake III from another machine's hard drive, while that machine was also playing Quake III, both with playable (and then some) frame rates and latency, on "only" a 100Mb LAN nearly a decade ago.

Your typical home user doesn't need to push gobs of data across the network, or isn't too concerned about latency even if they are pushing gobs of data around. Admittedly, streaming video and/or audio to other home machines is an exception, but 720p with 5.1 audio comes over even 100Mb ethernet faster than you can watch it (thank goodness for compression), and if you need uncompressed 1080p (3Gbps!) then you're out of the realm of "home user" anyway (ballpark "starting costs" for the setup required for that is in the neighborhood of $100,000 US Dollars - and that's a single system).

My whole point was simply that if you're a home user who just wants a machine that runs faster than your neighbor's, then there are options available that still only use three digits' worth of currency for the whole system, instead of jumping up to the land of 4+ digits per component.

If you're looking for an enterprise-grade solution, then use enterprise-grade components (and indulge yourself with that enterprise-level support while you're at it, you're certainly paying enough for it).

--
The difference between "in theory" and "in practice" is that "In theory, there isn't one".

Re:Nice!

[metrix007]

Ahh, so it was what I said. Yeah, I don't like the new prefixes, they are unneccessary. Whenever mega or kilo or terra or whichever is immediantly followed by the 'byte' suffix then its obvious its powers of 1024, and not 1000. Since it's the only context they are used in, there is really no need for change.

It certainly doesn't change the fact that HDD advertisers used false advertising almost since the start,

Re:Nice!

[Retron]

Indeed, it really ought to be. Unfortunately some people who know better than the rest of the world decided to launch a crusade towards some weird-sounding prefixes which they want to use to supplant the language currently in use. If they'd focused their energy into coming up with a new prefix for their SI measurements (ie 1 SIKB = 1000 bytes), we could all just have ignored them. But no, they decided to try to redefine already-accepted prefixes which has just left things in an utter mess. For further reading, see the various flame-wars over on Wikipedia (Binary Prefixes and Mebibyte, Megabyte are good places to start).

Re:Nice!

[ThatMegathronDude]

HDD sizes have always been measured in powers of ten. It only makes sense to measure in multipls of 2^10 when you are measuring storage that is accessed with a limited number of address bits, like RAM. Guess what, that's all that is measured like that. Hard disks, network transmissions, etc. are all measured with powers of ten since they are not limited to a certain number of pins. The operating system has "lied" to you by keeping units consistent for end-users that may not be aware of the difference in units.

Re:Nice!

[level_headed_midwest]

Only if you are using Windows, and then only 64-bit Windows can boot a HDD bigger than 2.2 TB from a UEFI-enabled motherboard. 32- and 64-bit versions of Linux and the BSDs will gladly boot 2.2+ TB HDDs from a machine with a BIOS.

Re:Nice!

[metrix007]

So why are harddrives based of powers of 1000, and RAM is not? And no, network speaks are still powers of 1024, such as 100 megabits being 104857600 bits. HDD's have always been the odd one out, and for what good reason? Because it's cheaper for them. Right?

Re:Nice!

[Zen Hash]

So why are harddrives based of powers of 1000, and RAM is not? And no, network speaks are still powers of 1024, such as 100 megabits being 104857600 bits. HDD's have always been the odd one out, and for what good reason? Because it's cheaper for them. Right?

Sorry, but the SI prefixes are usually used correctly when denoting transfer rates in networking documentation. 100 megabits/second means 100,000,000 bits/second. Memory is the big exception. Software is also a common exception, since it's written by people whose familiarity with those prefixes is often primarily through using them, or seeing them used, in reference to memory.

It seems like a lot of people are forgetting that the SI prefixes have been around much longer, and have a much broader use, than just the computer industry. All of this confusion is just a perfect example of why clear and distinct notation is important.

Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's pretty big for a driver. It would take me months to write something that big.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[cashman73]

That's ironic. I heard that's about the size of the new kernel for Windows 8!

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Nerdfest]

I find it takes me longer to write smaller software.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[TheRaven64]

Clearly you have never used an HP printer.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

So that's why I heard they are about to include a new Western Digital WDBAC0030HBK with their printers. I think HP designed the extra space in their packaging thinking this scenario from the very beginning.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[CarpetShark]

I heard that's about the size of the new kernel for Windows 8!

Yes,almost the entire 2GB of the windows kernel is a graphics driver. It's been included in windows kernels for quite a while now. Of course, most people replace that quickly, with something from nVidia or ATI.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

not if you coded it in a 'managed framework web 2.0 extreme programming' language.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't call them printers, they are Ink sale Enablement Devices, or IEDs.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[DigiShaman]

No, they're shit is what they are. And fuck HP for requiring a 200+MB base driver install package. Bastards!

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Jeremi]

Yes,almost the entire 2GB of the windows kernel is a graphics driver.

That's correct -- Microsoft optimizes their video driver by pre-rendering every possible graphic in advance, and including all of them as resources in the driver binary. That way they can display anything via a single lookup into the displays-table.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, That's not funny.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

Drivers larger than 2TB! That's pretty big for a driver.

You don't have an HP printer, I take it? That's pretty small for them.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because you don't use a pessimizing compiler.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[jbeaupre]

Leave it to Microsoft to use 2GB to store a blue screen.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[CarpetShark]

"That's correct -- Microsoft optimizes their video driver by pre-rendering every possible graphic in advance"

To be fair, it is only 16 million different colors of pixel. It's all the CPU-bound pixel-by-pixel copying that worries me.

Re:Drivers larger than 2TB!

[jc79]

That's funny, I'm pretty sure the HP drivers that came with my system are much smaller than that. Let me have a look....

....ah, yes: 8.7MB

$ yum info hplip
...
Name : hplip
Arch : x86_64
Version : 3.10.6
Release : 1.fc13
Size : 8.7 M
Repo : installed
From repo : updates
Summary : HP Linux Imaging and Printing Project
URL : http://hplip.sourceforge.net/
License : GPLv2+ and MIT
Description : The Hewlett-Packard Linux Imaging and Printing Project provides : drivers for HP printers and multi-function peripherals.

Oh, do you have to go to a manufacturer's website to download your printer driver along with whatever crapware they stuff into it? How antiquated...

Finns Flash AMD salty chips walking something

[Anonymous Coward]

My brain came to a complete halt trying to parse the headline "Swedes Show Intel Sandy Bridge Running BIOS-Successor UEFI"

I saw Swedes running across a sandy bridge that their spies ("Intel") had just discovered and "UEFI" being some sort of Ultimate Fighting thingamaroo

I was in a coma for a good two minutes there.

-------
TDz.

Re:Finns Flash AMD salty chips walking something

[Sulphur]

I saw Swedes running across a sandy bridge that their spies ("Intel") had just discovered and "UEFI" being some sort of Ultimate Fighting thingamaroo

Fear not. The agreement with Wikileaks halts any disclosure about Sweden.

Drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

> boot from drivers larger than 2 TB

Just what we need, more and bigger drivers!

drivers larger than 2 TB

[Anonymous Coward]

When will the code bloat stop? What are they doing, including a look-up table for every memory address?

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[hedwards]

Um, you do realize that as computers get more and more powerful and having more and more memory that video and music files are going to get big, right? Right now that 2TB disk handles only like 40 Blu Rays, right? I mean that's not really that unreasonable to expect hard disks of the future to be able to handle.

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[Lunix Nutcase]

I think you need to re-read the title of his post. I'll even highlight the relevant part for you:

drivers larger than 2 TB

Make sure to read that emphasized words a few times for the joke to finally sink in.

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[Anonymous Coward]

woosh

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[Anonymous Coward]

> Um, you do realize that as computers get more and more powerful and having more and more memory that video and music files are going to get big, right?

And how much disk space do you suppose it takes to store a high fidelity digitally sampled 7 channel sound that goes, "Whoooooooooosh!"?

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[TheRaven64]

Is 7 channels enough? It needs to be 3D spacial audio so that he can hear it going over his head...

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[Mitchell314]

Including the drivers for the sound system? A couple terabytes.

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[Hadlock]

Shoot, our art department resource server has 3TB and we're constantly bumping up against that limit. Our art department is one guy and I help sometimes. And we're a tiny catalog shop that puts out two catalogs a year. We just never delete anything. I can imagine a serious publishing company chews through that in a day and orders 2TB drives by the case.

Re:drivers larger than 2 TB

[DarthVain]

640kb should be enough for anyone eh?

2TB drivers

[Nethead]

..the ability to boot from drivers larger than 2 TB and faster boot times.

That's some work to be able to load a +2TB driver and still have faster boot times. No how much RAM did I need for this?

Kerma vhureeng

[MightyMartian]

Uneeffied Ixtenseeble-a Furmvere-a Interffece-a nemed heur tu tudey's beseec inpoot ooootpoot system thet elloos intrunce-a in iernest veet zee loonch ooff Intel Sundy Breedge-a et zee ind. Bork bork bork! UEFI kun leeknes feed itt nedbuntet oopereteefsystem sum öferkummer många ef de-a begränsneenger sum feenns i det uråldreega BIOS. UEFI is leeke-a a sceled-doon oopereteeng system vheech oofercumes muny ooff zee leemiteshuns ooff zee ege-a-oold BIOS.

Noo in UEFI

* Ebeelity tu mudern grepheecel interffece-a
* Uppstert från legreengsenheter större-a än 2 TB Buut frum sturege-a defeeces lerger thun 2 TB
* Snebbere-a uppstertsteeder Fester buut teemes
* Flexeebel uppstert från oobegränsed mängd källur Flexeeble-a buut frum un unleemited fereeety ooff suoorces
* CPOo-ooberuende-a erkeetektoor CPOo ercheetectoore-a independent
* Foollt utbyggd prugremmeeljö Foolly fledged sufftvere-a infurunment
* Stöd för dreefrootiner Sooppurt fur dreefers
* Stöd för 32/64-beeters meennesedressering Sooppurt fur 32/64 beet memury eddresseeng
* Efuncered säkerhet inklooseefe-a kryptereeng Edfunced secooreety incloodeeng incrypshun

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Anonymous Coward]

Bork! Bork! Bork!

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Nerdfest]

... but how easy is it to recover when it gets bork, bork, borked?

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[MBCook]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that once, I believe in season 2 of The Muppet Show, it was revealed that the Swedish Chef was only faking speaking Mock Swedish., and that his primary language was actually Mock Japanese.

And know you know, the rest of the story.

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Anonymous Coward]

from the swedish wp (for comparison): Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) är en ersättare till det nu något åldrade BIOS som finns i de flesta datorer. EFI gör det möjligt att lägga till och utveckla en rad funktioner som inte är möjligt med ett vanligt BIOS. Tekniken är framtagen av Intel och används bl.a. av Apple sedan januari 2006. EFI har varit möjlig att använda tillsammans med Linux sedan år 2000. EFI har kritiserats för att inte vara en öppen standard då koden är upphovskyddad och ej allmänt tillgänglig. MSI lanserar under hösten år 2008 tre moderkort med UEFI[1].

I can see the ad for this product from Intel: Max von Sydow reads this, against a gray sky, rocky coast, with a death figure trying to get his old ibm pc working again on a table that looks like a chessboard. Ok, you can have the swedish chef off to the side.

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Anonymous Coward]

Meep Meep Meep Meeeeeeeeppppp!!!

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[sempir]

I understand this post as much as everything posted by everyone else up to here,,,bugger nothing all. Although I must admit to a bit of quickening of the pulse when UFIA were mentioned...but that was just my shortsightedness playing up again...thought it was OFO's making an appearance!

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's one to grow on...

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1: Find news item on Slashdot. Bonus points if it's foreign [from a US perspective].
Step 2: Apply beaten to death popular cultural meme/joke to content and/or headline.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Instant +5 funny.

Re:Kerma vhureeng

[MightyMartian]

You missed Step 5: Profit!

Right now I'm in a hot tub atop a penthouse in Rio de Janeiro with six beautiful women all doing different things to me and each other, all because of the Swedish Chef bit. Beat that, jealous little AC man.

Bork bork bork!

Microsoft

[cashman73]

I heard Microsoft is already working on a competitor to UEFI. It's called UFIA. ;-)

Re:Microsoft

[hedwards]

Really? I would've thought it would be FUIA.

Re:Microsoft

[PaulMeigh]

And it really does load 2TB drivers.

Re:Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that run on an Intel Sandyvag processor?

Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[Sycraft-fu]

There are plenty of reasons to want BIOS/UEFI access. The problem with having a totally inaccessible one like Apple does is that if anything goes wrong or you need to change something, well then you are fucked. Apple "just works" until it doesn't and then it can often be more of a problem to fix. I am reminded of a Douglas Adams quote: "The difference between something that can go wrong and something that can't possibly go wrong is that when something that can't possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair."

So simple tasks that the BIOS/UEFI/other firmware provides are things like checking the RAM configuration and hardware monitors. In the event there's a problem with the system you can see things at a lower level, like which RAM slots are acknowledging what RAM or if there is a temperature or voltage problem. It can also be used for configuration tasks. Some mundane, like turning off integrated components (sound, net) if they aren't needed, some complex like overclocking.

There's good reasons for access to it. Most people probably never need it, but it is good to have it there for those that do. All the functions are there, might as well have an interface so people can control them if required.

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[techmuse]

OS X will tell you all of this stuff in the system profiler. In fact, if you install RAM in a non-optimal configuration in a Mac Pro, it will automatically detect it and tell you how to correct the problem for best performance. In the laptops, there is no "wrong" configuration, unless you put the wrong type of RAM in, in which case that RAM slot is disabled or, in the worst case, the system won't boot (in which case UEFI wouldn't help you anyway).

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

You can access system profiler from the OS install disc too along with some other utilities, AFAIK.
Also, EFI is not totally inaccessible on a Mac. It just doesn't have a menu driven interface by default. Several key combinations modify the startup sequence, boot order/options, whatever, just like most BIOS would do.

You didn't really make the case for needing to configuring hardware from firmware vs. configuring hardware from software the hardware was designed to run.

Something tells me you are equally miffed about the EFI in your car and this conversation will go nowhere...

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[SteeldrivingJon]

I believe Mac Pros also have LEDs near the RAM slots that will indicate problems.

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[Princeofcups]

There are plenty of reasons to want BIOS/UEFI access. The problem with having a totally inaccessible one like Apple does is that if anything goes wrong or you need to change something, well then you are fucked.

Actually, you take it to the nearest Apple store, and they usually fix for the cost of parts. I've never seen the need to tinker with a PC myself. And yet my jobs usually have me in the guts of a Sun Enterprise or an IBM P series server.

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[LordLimecat]

I believe just about any computer since the 90s has boot up POST beep codes to alert you to an error. Are you telling me that only a subset of Macs (the Pros) have equivalent functionality?

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[LordLimecat]

A friend's macbook trackpad died, and I took it to the mac store. Cost to replace? $150.

Thats a hell of a deal, right?

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[linhux]

The problem with having a totally inaccessible one like Apple does is that if anything goes wrong or you need to change something, well then you are fucked.

How is the Mac EFI "inaccessible"? Just put your EFI extensions (for example rEFIt or an EFI shell) on any disk with an EFI partition or a HFS+ volume with the appropriate blessings. The disk can be CD, USB or FireWire.

Of course, it is not often you need to do this, since it's very rare to see a Mac that doesn't boot OS X from any device. In out Mac cluster at work, we can almost always netboot the machine and diagnose from there, when the OS X install DVD won't boot.

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[wish bot]

Stop being a doosh.

Re:Diagnostics, system configuration, etc

[tehcyder]

Actually, you take it to the nearest Apple store, and they usually fix for the cost of parts. I've never seen the need to tinker with a PC myself.

Yeah, it's like those peasants who service their own cars, I mean, Jesus Christ, are they really that poor?

Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Snufu]

It's just a Swedish cooking term.

"Eufi deufi, peurfi dur." means "Add meatballs and simmer for 20 minutes."

Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_Yf4zz-yo

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[mikael_j]

Actually, "Add meatballs and simmer for 20 minutes" would translate to something like "Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter.".

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Desler]

*facepalm* Is the concept of a joke something new to you?

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[geekoid]

In Sweden that say 20 and not something like 'twenty'? odd

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Anonymous Coward]

*facepalm* Is the concept of a joke something new to you?

Well, he does speak Swedish.

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you write one,two etc up to seven, then you go 8,9,11 etc. I know you were trying to be funny though :-)

Also, Swedish meatballs don't simmer in any sauce. I always find that a bit sad when I go to a restaurant when I'm on vacation and I see "Swedish meatballs" on the menu and realise that it's the intonational dish of "Swedish meatballs" which has similarities to real Swedish meatballs but are not the same thing.

Swedish meatballs are fried in a pan and the sauce is is prepared separately (and shouldn't be a bland bechamel). Also you need to serve Lingon berries with the dish. ;-)
 

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Anonymous Coward]

Swedish meatballs are fried in a pan and the sauce is is prepared separately (and shouldn't be a bland bechamel).

You make the sauce like this: take the ready-fried meatballs out of the pan, then put butter and cream into the pan. Add salt and pepper as needed, then let it simmer for a few minutes.

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[owlstead]

No need to explain the dish, just point out that you can find any nearby IKEA using Google maps :)

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[knarf]

"Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter."

No wonder they called it UEFI - imagine the screen real estate needed to say

Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter BOOTING, PLEASE WAIT...

F3: ENTER Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter SETTINGS MENU
F10: RESET Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter TO DEFAULT SETTINGS

AMI Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter, (C) 2010

A wise decision by Intel IMnsHO

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, "Add meatballs and simmer for 20 minutes" would translate to something like "Lägg i köttbullar och låt sjuda i 20 minuter.".

"Summera idioter och sommar för tjugo mindre"

Beat that Google Translate!

Re:Eufi is not a BIOS,

[mikael_j]

"Sum up idiots and summer for twenty less". Also, that sentence doesn't really make sense...

(Google translate: "Add up the idiots and summer for the twenty less")

What happens if the OS does run?

[Sycraft-fu]

If you've never encountered a system with OS troubles all that means if you've not diagnosed many systems. We have a host of tools, including info in the BIOS, to diagnose systems that don't boot when checking things like hardware errors. Like in the case of a disk that won't boot. Is the data messed up, or is it a disk failure? If so how bad? Well one thing the BIOS can tell you is if it can see the disk. If it shows no data, or corrupted data, you know it is really bad. On the other hand if it shows up fine, then it is time to move on to bootable diagnostics.

As I said I'm sure for normal users, access is not necessary. That doesn't mean it is never useful. To me it is like saying "Weld the breaker box shut, why would you need to get at that?" Well true, most people don't, I think a great many people never open a breaker box. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have it accessible should it be needed.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[node 3]

You show significant ignorance in how Macs work. I suggest refraining from mistaking your presumably vast PC knowledge as though it's similarly applicable to the Mac.

On the Mac, you never, ever find yourself in a situation where access to equivalent of the BIOS would be helpful to troubleshoot Mac OS X boot problems. Ever. Situations where Mac OS X won't boot are very, very rare, and in those cases, all you have to do is boot from an OS X CD to begin troubleshooting.

On the PC, the BIOS settings program is fundamentally used to set motherboard options. Boot drive options, SATA/IDE modes, RAM settings, PnP, sleep, etc. On the Mac, these options are meaningless because Apple creates the hardware, so there's no reason to disable AHCI mode for SATA drives, you control sleep modes from OS X, and so on.

If you can come up with a scenario where BIOS-like access to EFI would be useful on Apple hardware running Mac OS X, I'm open to hearing them.

And, worse case, you can just use rEFIt, which is exactly what some people use to run Linux on their Macs.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

You can get some information by booting verbose, by holding down the V key, which causes the computer to boot with a text console. That may give you some information about what's going on.

If the boot process is failing partway, you might be able to boot into single-user mode by holding down the S key, which gives you a root console. From there you can use unix tools to look around and/or fix things.

There are other keys you can use, like the option key to choose between boot devices, or 'n' to boot from a netboot server. Insert the computer's installation DVD, and hold down the 'd' key during boot, and the computer will boot from a diagnostic partition on the disk, which I assume would be useful.

You can also set an EFI password, and lock down these things.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you strip out the pretentious apple worship, what's left is the same old 'it can't break...' until it does fallacy.

1. you don't use the bios config screen to troubleshoot. you use it to SET boot options. EFI includes the ability to add troubleshooting utilities. Sometimes the hardware DOES fail, apple logo or not. It would be nice to simply press a key at bootup and gain access to a menu of hw testing utilities.

2. apple does not 'create' the hardware. No more than HP or dell or any other oem creates hardware. They design a motherboard (maybe) and a shell to put it in. Everything else is off the shelf components. A user accessible EFI would be a boon to techies who end up having to deal with their nontechnical friends/familys' apple products.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hadlock]

This post took a nosedive with the first sentence, but then made up for it with content not usually seen in a /. post.
 
-1, Snarky
 
+5, oh snap

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hylandr]

Amen to this.

Just to get my two cents in, it's also useful when all you have is damaged hardware to start with, Having access to that bios means I can lower certain speeds or increase wait states until things work again. CPU got a little too hot and BSOD's windows? Slow it down until it's stable. Ram going bad? Increase CAS and or RAS Serial Ports bad (Yea who uses them anymore right? ) Disable them, add a card and get the equipment hooked back up.

Mac? I had to support a Mac only environment for the past two years, on to a better job now thank you. When a Mac dies, there's no options. Power supply? $200+. Power supply for a PC ? $50. Mac lovers can worship their shiny white ... equipment... The reality of the professional working world is the Mac is eye candy, and only useful for performing work the same way a cooper mini is useful for hauling lumber. It's compact and cute, but don't expect to move much in it.

- Dan.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

Actually, Mac replacement parts are available from lots of suppliers, just like a PC. Ebay is full of them... just like a PC. And they're often lots cheaper... just like for a name-brand PC. It's up to you whether you want to go with the 3rd parties or the original equipment.

It's only the people who work for Apple or Apple shops who think the market is locked-in, because that's all they see.

It just so happens I am shopping for a replacement battery for a several-years-old Macbook. I can get a third party battery online for $X. I can get a genuine Mac replacement battery from resellers online for approximately $2X. And direct from Apple? A full $4X.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

"The reality of the professional working world is the Mac is eye candy, and only useful for performing work the same way a cooper mini is useful for hauling lumber. It's compact and cute, but don't expect to move much in it. "

And by the way, I should point out that while that might have been true 10 years ago, it simply isn't today. Today, the majority of software developers -- the overall majority, that is, including those who develop Windows programs -- do it on a Mac. Look it up. It was professionals who led the switch to Macs. And that means that you are simply wrong. Apples have a lot to offer... if you know what you're doing.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[LordLimecat]

Pardon me, what happens if there is a controller error with the CD drive? How exactly would you diagnose this?

For that matter, what if the bootable CD runs into an error that it is unable to cope with-- perhaps the hard drive is acting funny, or refusing to read back block X, or whatever...

And if you try to claim that THATS impossible, then im sorry, I agree with GP-- you havent troubleshot many computers.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[LordLimecat]

Most of the stuff you mentioned (at least the first half of your post) are reliant on having a functional OS to begin with. If you have a working OS, you wouldnt be tinkering with the BIOS at all (as tools from the OS tend to be more useful anyways).

All the mac users here claiming that "youd never need that" probably either havent done much serious troubleshooting, or have a lot of disposable cash (and thus can replace the mac when something goes awry).

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hylandr]

I have been in this industry more than 15 years, Including supporting a full Mac pre-press outfit. I stand by my statement. Also, the prices I quoted *WERE* Ebay prices. Anything else we could afford to build our own PC's. And we did.

If a Mac is doing everything your asking a Mac to do, then I can only assume you aren't expecting much.

- Dan.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[node 3]

Once you strip out the pretentious apple worship, what's left is the same old 'it can't break...' until it does fallacy.

"Pretentious Apple worship"? WTF? The only thing that even remotely matches that is when I called out Yet Another PC user who thinks his PC knowledge applies to Macs. This is no different than a Windows user snobbing about Linux, or yes, Mac users talking about PCs, etc. It wasn't about Macs being superior, but someone talking about something they are ignorant of.

I wasn't being the pretentious one. I was just calling it out, although probably not terribly tactfully.

1. you don't use the bios config screen to troubleshoot. you use it to SET boot options.

I never said you do. In fact, I wrote:

"On the PC, the BIOS settings program is fundamentally used to set motherboard options."

apple does not 'create' the hardware.

Yes, they do.

No more than HP or dell or any other oem creates hardware.

Yet Another PC user syndrome strikes again. Apple engineers their hardware far more than Dell and HP do. They certainly don't create each part, and I never said they did. In fact, this is a completely irrelevant sidetrack from my point which is that Apple decides the exact specifications for each Mac, and they write their own operating system, which makes the usual need for BIOS settings entirely unnecessary. You don't have to tweak settings to correct strange boot problems or address stability issues. Granted, you don't have to do this on PCs that much anymore either, but Sycraft-fu's point was that when you *do* need it, it's there, and by your statement that "what's left is the same old 'it can't break...' until it does fallacy", you are continuing it.

Macs just simply don't break in the way that benefits from those BIOS options. They do break, but never in that way. If you have a counter-example, I'm open to hearing it.

A user accessible EFI would be a boon to techies who end up having to deal with their nontechnical friends/familys' apple products.

Not really. But like I said, an example would help settle this instead of simply making vague assertions.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[node 3]

Mac? I had to support a Mac only environment for the past two years, on to a better job now thank you. When a Mac dies, there's no options. Power supply? $200+. Power supply for a PC ? $50. Mac lovers can worship their shiny white ... equipment... The reality of the professional working world is the Mac is eye candy, and only useful for performing work the same way a cooper mini is useful for hauling lumber. It's compact and cute, but don't expect to move much in it.

You were a PC support employee who found himself out of his element when tasked with supporting Macs. Clearly your preconceived notions cannot be false, so therefore Macs can be nothing other than overpriced toys.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[node 3]

The first sentence was something I meant to reword, but forgot to until I hit "Submit". My sentiment stands, but my wording was too sharp. My point was that Sycraft-fu is making an issue on the Mac out of ignorance of how Macs work. It's kind of like complaining that you can't get at the spark plugs on a diesel engine. Not a perfect analogy, but car analogies never are.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize Apple hardware, but lack of BIOS or EFI access is not one of them. Reasons for them on the PC do not apply to Macs, and when people assert their ignorance so strongly, it's annoying.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[lmnfrs]

I've only owned one Mac in my lifetime, so my knowledge of them may be minimal; but OSX no longer boots. Doesn't seem that rare to me.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[node 3]

Pardon me, what happens if there is a controller error with the CD drive? How exactly would you diagnose this?

USB, FireWire, network DVD sharing, netboot. All of which are available without the need for a BIOS or BIOS-like menu system.

On the other hand, if all those options fail as well (an exceptionally unlikely scenario, but could certainly happen), I don't see how a BIOS/EFI menu system is going to be of much help.

The simple fact is that if you run Mac OS X on Apple hardware, you have no need for access to the EFI system (and I can think of no reasonable scenario where one would even want that, but if you have an example, please elaborate). If you want to run Linux on a Mac, or triple-boot on the same drive, then you can run rEFIt. If you want to run Mac OS X on PC hardware, then BIOS access is quite often essential.

And if you try to claim that THATS impossible, then im sorry, I agree with GP-- you havent troubleshot many computers.

Why would I claim that's impossible?

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

"All the mac users here claiming that "youd never need that" probably either havent done much serious troubleshooting"

My first computers were a ZX81 kit, a Rockwell AIM-65, and a Tektronix 4051 graphics terminal with a storage tube display. Then an Apple IIc which I upgraded with a RAM card and a CPU upgrade. Then a Mac SE/30, a NeXT Cube, a NeXTstation, a few generations of AMD K6 and Athlon PCs which I overclocked and upgraded piecewise, before I grew out of that. Then OS X came out and I started buying Macs again.

I've done plenty of troubleshooting.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[sirsnork]

Then, unlike a PC, you boot off a USB hard drive that you've installed OSX on, of even a USB stick. If you don't happen to have one, then you can borrow a friends and as long as it's up to date, it'll boot up on your hardware perfectly fine

I'm of the opinion that having EFI access on a Mac would be useful. But there are so many ways to get around a bad HDD on a Mac it's not funny

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

"Most of the stuff you mentioned (at least the first half of your post) are reliant on having a functional OS to begin with. If you have a working OS, you wouldnt be tinkering with the BIOS at all (as tools from the OS tend to be more useful anyways)."

Well, not really. The boot option keys are in EFI, so they work even if there's nothing to boot from. The verbose boot log starts really early in the boot process, RAM checks and whatnot. If the *OS* is broken, you'll see messages about it. If the system hangs during boot you'll see where it's hanging. If the system panics, you'll see that. This is useful information.

If the problem is in hardware, so it doesn't even get far enough to do a verbose boot, you'll get information in other ways. If there's a RAM problem, the startup chime won't sound (and the MacPro has a light for each RAM slot to indicate a problem with that slot). If a boot drive isn't found, then I believe EFI shows a disk with a question mark. Insert a bootable DVD or SD card or external USB drive of some sort and it'll boot from that. If the display isn't working, but it sounds like it's booting, ssh or VNC in.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Anonymous Coward]

Replying to undo mod.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Anonymous Coward]

God, Mac fanboys are worst than the Java lovers.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Illusion2269]

On the Mac, you never, ever find yourself in a situation where access to equivalent of the BIOS would be helpful to troubleshoot Mac OS X boot problems. Ever.

I respectfully disagree with this statement in so many ways.

As an Apple technician, I found many times when having BIOS or EFI access would have saved me hours of time running diagnostics from optical discs and tearing apart the system trying to get access to the hardware, which is another problem I have with their design, but that will have to wait for another post.

If you are just an end user and were lucky enough to be able to use your Mac for what it is intended for, kudos. If you ever had to figure out why it stops booting, having access to the BIOS/EFI is extremely important. As another poster pointed out, the OS does indeed show this information, and it is available to a non-booting system through disc-based diagnostics, but other than that if you do not have access to these, you are SOL.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[tibman]

Eeek, i think you are mistaken. You can't run Visual Studio natively so you're stuck with bootcamp or VMWare. I think we can agree that there is a lot of development on VS too. There is also the upcoming issue of java depreciation on the mac. That could prevent a lot of developers from coding in OS X unless they use a non-standard jdk. What you probably saw was professionals owning a mac.. people who are making decent money.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what OS/hardware the code is written on, as long as the code compiles and runs. This is easier working on the same platform as the target (unless the target is a phone or something). Multi-target programs require testing/compiling on various OSs/platforms so it's good to mix it up (as long as the colaboration tools are multi-platform as well).

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[tehcyder]

Today, the majority of software developers -- the overall majority, that is, including those who develop Windows programs -- do it on a Mac. Look it up.

This is the sort of comment which is meaningless without links to credible sources.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple Fanboi Defense Force, unite!

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[thoromyr]

All of these +5 Insightful comments from people who don't know how to support macs is a little frustrating. Wish I had mod points to improve the situation rather than post another comment that will be ignored. You have excellent points and refute the GPs assertion that boot-control keys were somehow reliant on having a functioning operating system.

As with using Windows vs OS X, the support of "PC" hardware vs Macs is mostly what you are used to. If a tech support guy with 20 years of experience has only supported macs he's going to have some issues with troubleshooting "PC" hardware due to the lack of built in diagnostics and tools. "But he's got a BIOS to play with!" Yeah, that's real useful to someone whose never seen one. The fact that the mirror image of a tech support guy with 20 years of experience supporting only "PC" hardware trying to support macs won't know how to troubleshoot issues without a BIOS -- big surprise.

Supporting a mac is different than supporting a "PC", but it is just as possible to do.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can confirm your post on the need to able to change BIOS settings, I've had to do that many times to stabilize a computer.

But I do object slightly (I'm not a Mac owner) with your assessment that Macs are eye candy and not useful for hauling the lumber. Here is a link showing that Macs can not only haul the lumber, they excel at it:

http://climateapps2.oucs.ox.ac.uk/cpdnboinc/top_hosts.php

As a long-time climateprediction.net participant, I know my jaw was on the floor when I first saw this.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

Java "deprecation" on the Mac means next to nothing. It means simply that it does not come pre-installed. You can still get the java code and compile it yourself, just as many people do on other flavors of Linux.

Macs run Java-based IDEs and Java code just fine, even when it's your own installation, and not from the factory. Remember, a OS X is little more than a UI on top of FreeBSD. Anything you can run on just about any posix-compliant Linux box will run on a Mac. And don't forget that browsers still use Java a lot... though less than before.

Seriously, I read the other day (this was not my own conclusion, it was ComputerWorld or some such publication) that the Mac had overtaken the PC as the development machine of choice. My own experience does support this, but I wouldn't have said that based on my own experience alone.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

Well, I was looking on ebay myself, and my experience does not match up with yours. Further, there was an article in a major magazine last year that compared the cost of Macs vs. PCs using the same hardware (or as close as they could get). The Macs were a little more expensive, true, but not very much at all. Not nearly as much as some people say.

Parts, yes, but as I mentioned earlier: I can get 3rd-party parts for X, genuine Mac parts from resellers for 2X, and buy direct from Apple for 4X. That is based on prices I gathered between yesterday and the day before.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[dave420]

There is so much bullshit in your post. Seriously. I didn't know Macs never went wrong.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[VisceralLogic]

A user accessible EFI would be a boon to techies who end up having to deal with their nontechnical friends/familys' apple products.

Not really. But like I said, an example would help settle this instead of simply making vague assertions.

Perhaps unlikely, but suppose your HD, optical drive, USB, and FireWire failed simultaneously. You wouldn't be able to boot into OS X. You might not be able to fix the problem from BIOS access, but you could probably at least figure out some more useful diagnostic information.

Now, that being said, I've always used Macs (typing this on my original MacBook), and never had a situation in which BIOS access would have been useful. The only time I've had to use it was on setting up my Hackintosh.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hylandr]

Magazines have recently become propaganda tools pushing a marketing agenda to pay it's bills these days. Most any trade magazine these days aren't informative, but rather written to promote xy or z.

I are not impress.

- Dan.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[JorDan Clock]

Why would someone in a professional support position be buying replacement parts from eBay? Doesn't sound very... professional.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[tibman]

ah, i must disagree with you. If it becomes depreciated, it isn't just no longer pre-installed, it isn't officially supported.

Currently Apple provides the java run-time. The community will have to provide an open-source solution pre-compiled and it will no longer "just work". I have the feeling that things that don't "just work" go against the Mac grain and won't last.

However i must agree with you (changed my opinion) that a lot of development is on the Mac. I did some research and a vast percentage of web dev happens on a Mac instead of PC. Native side, it looks like PC is still ahead but only because Visual Studio doesn't run natively in OS X. I could see that transitioning over too if .Net and VS ran native. Not sure why so many devs use Mac for webdev but facts don't lie and my personal choices obviously aren't a good measuring stick. Linux is low in every dev category : /

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[JorDan Clock]

About Apple creating their hardware... They don't. All of their parts are pretty much normal hardware. Intel CPUs with Intel chipsets using normal RAM and hard drives. The case is about the only thing they probably design themselves, and even that is probably produced somewhere else. iPhones? Foxconn. Though that may be changing soon... A4 CPUs? I don't think Apple has a CPU fab quite yet.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[JorDan Clock]

You can boot off USB with a PC. That's how I installed Vista and Win7. And several flavors of Linux. It's a very well supported feature on just about any motherboard that's under 6 years old, I would say.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[The Wild Norseman]

And X equals what, exactly, in your case so that we can have some actual numbers to help better understand his and your point of view?

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[The Wild Norseman]

"The reality of the professional working world is the Mac is eye candy, and only useful for performing work the same way a cooper mini is useful for hauling lumber. It's compact and cute, but don't expect to move much in it. "

And by the way, I should point out that while that might have been true 10 years ago, it simply isn't today. Today, the majority of software developers -- the overall majority, that is, including those who develop Windows programs -- do it on a Mac. Look it up. It was professionals who led the switch to Macs. And that means that you are simply wrong. Apples have a lot to offer... if you know what you're doing.

"Look it up"? Sorry, you put forth the claim, you need to put forth the evidence.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[LordLimecat]

When someone says "press X to enter single user mode; thats better than BIOS anyways", then yes, Im going to remark on how awful of a disaster recovery plan it is to rely on your hard drive for fixing hardware errors.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

And you're going to show yourself as persistently ignorant, because the boot keys are in EFI, not the hard disk. They're available even if there is no bootable volume attached at all.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[mjwalshe]

given the way apple seems to be treating the the pro end on macs, not for much longer.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

Yeah, but you may need to fiddle with BIOS to get the boot order set up right, so that the USB drive is tried, and tried before the failed hard disk.

On the Mac, you just hold down the option key at boot.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hylandr]

I agree, it's not the optimal situation, but when you're force to keep things running without a budget...

- Dan.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[jgrahn]

If a Mac is doing everything your asking a Mac to do, then I can only assume you aren't expecting much.

I run Linux on mine. What /is/ much, according to you? Simulating nuclear explosions? Running Windows-only software?

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[JorDan Clock]

On a PC, you hold down a function key during boot and you'll get a boot list. One step more than a Mac, but negligible in difference. No fiddling with anything in either case, unless you count selecting from a list as fiddling.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[beelsebob]

Quite frankly, I've never had a single problem that involved not being able to boot any OS at all, but that could be fixed by looking at the BIOS, I think you're blowing FUD sir.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[SteeldrivingJon]

Not on any PC I've ever used.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

"The community" already does provide, and has provided for years, open-source Java that runs natively on any posix-compliant Linux machine. Which is exactly what a Mac is. In fact, many people (myself included) have complained in the past that upgrading Java on the Mac entailed killing the factory Java install and installing the upgrade yourself manually anyway, which installs it differently from the way it comes pre-configured with OS X. But it still works FINE. And will continue to do so as long as OS X runs on top of Linux. Which is the foreseeable future.

So I say again: very little has changed, very little will change.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

When what is reported in the magazine can be easily checked by anyone, and turns out to be simple fact, then it doesn't much matter if you are not impressed.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Jane Q. Public]

If the parts are exactly the same (which can be checked), and you can get them from Apple-approved resellers on ebay cheaper than you can get them from Apple itself (as in the case I mentioned from just the other day), then why would you NOT buy them from ebay? THAT would be unprofessional.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[Hylandr]

Opinion is not fact.

If they stated fact, and fact only then fine. But when you use those facts to push your own, or your sponsors political, financial or medical agenda then that magazine has relegated itself to near tabloid usefulness.

They can't be blamed too much for it though. They have to stay in business somehow and most all legitimate readership has gone online so money cannot be generated by ads alone.

I am done with this thread.

- Dan.

Re:What happens if the OS does run?

[JorDan Clock]

Really? Because it's been on every PC I've used since my IBM Aptiva in 1998...

death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Snorbert Xangox]

More than a decade after hard drives stopped internally using a fixed cylinder/head/sector geometry, we finally get mass market deployment of a partitioning scheme that completely gets rid of this big, dumb lie.

All the hoo-haa over new drives with 4kB sectors and the way that DOS-compatible operating systems partitioning tools want you to lay out your disk has actually already been experienced by sysadmins for years, when they attempt to come up with partitioning schemes for those operating systems that align filesystem blocks with the underlying geometry of SSD write blocks or RAID 5 stripe segments.

Next time you buy an SD card or thumb drive, stick it into a box with a decent formatting tool and look at the actual start sector for the partitions. You will find that the manufacturers have quietly been using sane partition start sector values (i.e., power of two, not "first sector of second track of cylinder 0") because they know that the performance of the device would be horrible if almost every VFAT cluster write spanned multiple flash write blocks.

And all this stuffing around has been forced upon us because Microsoft never had the balls to say, "you want to rock out with Borland Sidekick or Netware 3.0? Sure, use a frickin' VM, or use a new version of DOS that speaks native LBA to the BIOS. Those are your choices."

All the brainpower and effort that has been wasted on workarounds for the effects of the brain damaged MBR partitioning table could have been much better used actually improving how computers worked, rather than treading water.

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Anonymous Coward]

All the brainpower and effort that has been wasted on workarounds for the effects of the brain damaged MBR partitioning table could have been much better used actually improving how computers worked, rather than treading water.

well what are you waiting for?

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Kakari]

What do you consider a decent formatting tool?

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Snorbert Xangox]

Ummm, nothing? I already got whacked by the cluebat, but I'd be happy if others could be spared the same pain.

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Snorbert Xangox]

Linux fdisk or GNU parted - change the units to sectors and you can then print the partition table out in raw sector LBA offsets.

There's another gotcha for FAT filesystems on SDHC, in that the filesystem metadata at the start of the partition has no natural power-of-two alignment. If you look into the FAT filesystem that a digital camera puts on an SD card when you format it, I suspect that you'll see a bunch of reserved sectors as padding before the FATs, to ensure that the first data sector lines up nicely with a flash write cell.

Wikipedia gives this lovely formula in their description of the FAT filesystem:

Clusters are numbered beginning after the root directory with cluster 2. The following formula will convert the file start cluster (X) in 0x1a to the number of sectors from the beginning of the partition using the Boot Sector fields:

For FAT32

FileStartSector = ReservedSectors(0x0e) + (NumofFAT(0x10) * Sectors2FAT(0x24)) + ((X 2) * SectorsPerCluster(0x0d))

For FAT16/12

FileStartSector = ReservedSectors(0x0e) + (NumofFAT(0x10) * Sectors2FAT(0x16)) + (MaxRootEntry(0x11) * 32 / BytesPerSector(0x0b)) + ((X 2) * SectorsPerCluster(0x0d))

The reserved sectors field is 2 bytes, which allows padding of the alignment of the start of the data clusters to NAND flash write blocks, or even possible an erase block if that would somehow help. (erase blocks on a cheaper Intel SSD are 512kB, not sure about the sizes on SDHC cards or thumb drives).

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Anonymous Coward]

And all this stuffing around has been forced upon us

Forced on you, maybe. The very idea of partitions has been obsolete for a long time. pvcreate /dev/sdb. Or better yet:
mdadm --create /dev/md1 --level=1 --raid-devices=2 /dev/sdb /deb/sdc
pvcreate /dev/md1
vgextend vg0 /dev/md1
lvcreate (whatever you wanted a partition for)

Partitions, bah!

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Dwedit]

You look at an SD card, and chances are good that there is no partition table at all. You often see them formatted so that the first sector of the disk is the first sector of the filesystem itself.

Re:death to MBR, death to C/H/S

[Kakari]

Thanks for this reply!

BIOS successor? I think not.

[FridayBob]

I saw nothing new in the video clip; just the same old configuration options as before, except with a new, flashy interface. I don't see why that's necessary, but I suppose we should be grateful that they aren't foisting any animated paperclips on us.

Re:BIOS successor? I think not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Give it a chance to actually get going. I was hoping to have UEFI with my last computer upgrade but alas it was not to be.

What are some of the benefits that we could see with it? Well:
-Bare metal hypervisors. Imagine being able to boot up linux and windows side-by-side and not have to worry about setting up any sort of virtual machine. You could switch between the two using a keyboard combo. Or even being able to setup a COW copy of windows so cleaning up your mom's copy of windows is as easy as hitting a few keys and setting it back to a known clean state...

-Improved device support. Devices could use a standardised interface on the "bios" level so that windows/linux/osx would just need a simple driver layer to talk to the device. Device manufacturers could provide what basically amounts to a shim to load into the UEFI which provides the mapping between the actual device and the standardised hardware interface. Of course this may run into issues such as non-standard or extended features but this could be taken care of with extensible interfaces.

There are many more benefits that could be accomplished but I shall leave it up to you to ponder...

Re:BIOS successor? I think not.

[DarkXale]

Its less about appearance and more about adaptability. UEFI software is not as strict about which motherboard it runs on - and you can implement significantly more functionality into it, helped by the fact that its much easier to code for (C++ rather than Assembly). The fact that its capable of handling more than 64kilobytes of RAM helps for this as well. Its not based on code thats older than quite a number of posters here. Dozens and dozens of difficult (thus costly) modifications have had to be made to BIOS in order for it not to break modern systems. I remember when more than 128gb was unusable on a lot of machines because of BIOS; and frequently forced a complete motherboard replacement because BIOS just could not be reliably updated on a broad scale. The fact that its adaptability also permits greater ease of use is merely a bonus; its not its purpose. And it boots faster too. BIOS has been horribly mutilated and twisted into something it was never meant to do. It should've been replaced years ago.

Re:BIOS successor? I think not.

[znerk]

What are some of the benefits that we could see with it? Well:
-Bare metal hypervisors. Imagine being able to boot up linux and windows side-by-side and not have to worry about setting up any sort of virtual machine. You could switch between the two using a keyboard combo. Or even being able to setup a COW copy of windows so cleaning up your mom's copy of windows is as easy as hitting a few keys and setting it back to a known clean state...

Oh, like ESXi? No, wait, you said no virtual machine... wait, what? Hypervisor = Virtual machine control system.

Your "insta-clean" windows can be accomplished with drive imaging, or "freezing".

-Improved device support. Devices could use a standardised interface on the "bios" level so that windows/linux/osx would just need a simple driver layer to talk to the device. Device manufacturers could provide what basically amounts to a shim to load into the UEFI which provides the mapping between the actual device and the standardised hardware interface. Of course this may run into issues such as non-standard or extended features but this could be taken care of with extensible interfaces.

Are you advocating an OS-independent version of DirectX for bare metal? Or are you describing how BIOS already operates?

In short, either you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're simply unaware that what you're describing is already in existence (and, indeed, is the way it already works).

Drivers? What about the 9-irons?

[zooblethorpe]

And just how far can someone hit a ball with a 2TB driver? Are they PGA-approved, or will the club kick me out if they find me using one? Hmm...

Cheers,

Translated transcript

[Hazelfield]

Hello and welcome to Sweclockers! Today we're looking at UEFI, the boot software that is the successor of the old but still very popular BIOS. UEFI has become a hot topic recently as it's going to be used extensively in the next generation of Intel processors, codenamed Sandy Bridge. So let us have a look at what it has to offer.

The biggest difference between UEFI and BIOS is that UEFI gives motherboard manufacturers much better possibilities of implementing their own software. Our test motherboard comes from Asus, and the Taiwanese manufacturer has put in several exciting new features. To begin with you can use your mouse, which wasn't possible in BIOS, and there's also the possibility of running in several different modes. For example, there's this simplified mode that greets you when you enter UEFI. Here you can choose between power saving, normal setting or some kind of optimal setting. All settings are then adjusted automatically and you don't have to worry about it. Then there's this simple drag-and-drop system to choose boot order and some panels are available that show fan speeds and the like. Very simple and absolutely enough for anyone without any desire to dig into it.

There's also a more advanced mode available through the menu here, and now it looks more familiar compared to BIOS. It works more or less the same way except the graphics are updated and there are more options. There are several menus available where you can change language, security settings, and there's this "AI Tweaker" where you can overclock the processor, just as you're used to from BIOS. The usual advanced settings for integrated components such as the processor etc. are there, and they work just as usual. The monitor settings where you can see temperature, fan speeds, set fan profiles and so on, also work just as in BIOS except it looks better and you can use your mouse which makes it easier to navigate. The boot settings contain some new features, for example you can just click one of the alternatives and the computer boots from that device, you don't have to enter a special menu or anything. Finally in the last menu, there are some tools, Asus' flash tool to update the BIOS, which itself is also updated with new features. You can easily use your mouse to pick a BIOS version from hard disks or USB storage that you want to use on your motherboard.

Well, that's just a quick look on an implementation of UEFI for the next generation Intel platform. With the possibilities offered by this new system we will likely see new interesting solutions in the near future. We at Sweclockers will of course cover this development and report as much as we can until the final release.

Re:Translated transcript

[John Hasler]

UEFI gives motherboard manufacturers much better possibilities of implementing their own software.

That is not a plus.

"the long awaited successor"?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like intel throwing another NIH hissy fit with something deliberately incompatible with the rest of the world. In fact, it's a similarly craptastic itanic holdover. What's wrong with openboot, eh?

Historical Preenactment Society

[zooblethorpe]

"Because the best history has yet to happen"

Or maybe not. It's not all jetpacks and laser beams for breakfast right now, for that matter.

Cheers,

User-friendly

[AlfaMike]

I might look like a hardcore old-school wannabe but IMHO all this bloat makes it more confusing than it helps. I prefer the simpler to-the-point BIOS the way it is now. It's not like I go into the BIOS everyday anyway.

One thing that's on my wishlist

[SpazmodeusG]

One thing that disappoints me about current UEFI motherboards is that you still need to have certain files at certain locations on your primary hard disk. Specifically my new EFI based system required me to partition my hard drive so that there is an EFI System partition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_System_partition

This EFI System partition is a variant of the FAT file system that contains the EFI bootloader. When i heard of EFI i assumed there'd be a bit of flash on the motherboard to store the EFI bootloader and applications. I hoped the BIOS itself would be able to contain the driver for whatever filesystem i was currently using in its flash. I was hoping that EFI would make it so i could avoid having bootloaders on a specific drive thus making it possible to add or remove drives as wanted without having to worry about which drive contained the bootloader. Unfortunately this isn't the case. Your harddrive will still require certain sectors to contain certain files. There is still such a thing as a system partition. In fact it now requires you to pollute your hard drive with a special FAT based partition.

Essentially EFI has the same hack that traditional BIOS has in that a bootloader needs to be stored at sector 0 of the first drive (but in this case an EFI system partition in your partition table). When i heard about UEFI i hoped that there would be a way to load a filesystem driver directly into the flash of the BIOS so that i could layout whatever filesystem i had in whatever way i wanted. There isn't. Things on your hard drive must be set up in a specific way. Hopefully in the future motherboard manufacturers will include some flash on the motherboard setup as the EFI system partition but in the meantime you'll have to format one of your hard drive partitions as the system partition. Just like you do with traditional BIOS.

No one posted this yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

From: Linus Torvalds [email blocked]
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/1] Add efi e820 memory mapping on x86 [try #1]
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:32:17 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, Andrew Morton wrote:
>
> > This Patch add an efi e820 memory mapping.
> >
>
> Why?

EFI is this other Intel brain-damage (the first one being ACPI). It's
totally different from a normal BIOS, and was brought on by ia64, which
never had a BIOS, of course.

Sadly, Apple bought into the whole "BIOS bad, EFI good" hype, so we now
have x86 machines with EFI as the native boot protocol.

The original EFI code in the kernel basically duplicates all the BIOS
interfaces (ie everything that looks at a memory map comes in two
varieties: the normal and tested BIOS e820 variety, and the usually broken
and hacked-up EFI memory map variety).

Translating the EFI memory map to e820 is very much the sane thing to do,
and should have been done by ia64 in the first place. Sadly, EFI people
(a) think that their stinking mess is better than a BIOS and (b) are
historically ia64-only, so they didn't do that, but went the "we'll just
duplicate everything using our inferior EFI interfaces" way.

Edgars patch looks fine per se, I'd just wish we had more testers (or,
alternatively, people would just use bootcamp and make their Apple
machines look like PC's, but see (a) above).

                Linus

From: Linus Torvalds [email blocked]
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/1] Add efi e820 memory mapping on x86 [try #1]
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:00:05 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> Sadly, Apple bought into the whole "BIOS bad, EFI good" hype, so we now
> have x86 machines with EFI as the native boot protocol.

Btw, that's not totally new. I think some people played around with EFI on
x86 even before Apple came around. And don't get me wrong - the problem
with EFI is that it actually superficially looks much better than the
BIOS, but in practice it ends up being one of those things where it has
few real advantages, and often just a lot of extra complexity because of
the "new and improved" interfaces that were largely defined by a
committee.

I think a lot of the "new standards" tend to be that way. Trying to solve
a lot of problems and allow everybody to add their own features, instead
of just saying that it's better to just standardize the hardware.

For example, instead of ACPI, we could just have had standardized hardware
(and a few tables to define things like numbers of CPU's etc). It would
have been simpler for everybody. But no, people seem to think that it's
somehow "better" to have wild and crazy hardware, and then have a really
complicated way of describing it - and driving it - dynamically.

So EFI has this cool shell, a loadable driver framework, and other nice
features. Where "nice" obviously means "much more complex than the simple
things they designed in the late seventies back when people were stupid
and just wanted things to work".

Of course, it's somewhat questionable whether people have actually gotten
smarter or stupider in the last 30 years. It's not enough time for
evolution to have increased our brain capacity, but it certainly _is_
enough time for most people to no longer understand how hardware works any
more.

Not a good combination, in other words.

Not that I'd ever claim that the BIOS is wonderful either, but at least
everybody knows that the BIOS is just a bootloader, and doesn't try to
make it anything else.

The absolutely biggest advantage of a BIOS is that it's _so_ inconvenient
and obviously oldfashioned, that you have to be crazy to want to do
anything serious in it. Real mode, 16-bit code is actually an _advantage_
in that sense. People know how to treat it, and don't get any ideas about
it being some grandiose framework for anything else than "just load the OS
and get the hell out of there".

                        Linus /

Wimps all of you!

[Anonymous Coward]

Real UEFI doesn't have a GUI interface and at best it has a TUI interface on a serial console! You use the EFI shell and commands like map, connect, cd, etc. El Torito media for all and sundry - death to bootable legacy optical media! The revolution has came and the MBR will be the first up against the wall!

What EFI is and isn't

[pchan-]

Every time Slashdot has a story of EFI, we get a thousand uninformed posts about what it is, isn't, what it should do and why it sucks. As someone who has worked on EFI for years, let me clear them up for you:

1) EFI was designed by Intel as a replacement for BIOS. UEFI (edk2) is the second generation EFI, and is open source (see: http://tianocore.sourceforge.net). Intel delivers all of their boot support code as EFI drivers these days.

2) EFI is NOT a graphical interface. Some Chinese motherboard makers created terrible graphical configuration applications for it. Apple created a pretty nice boot selector. It can just as easily "post" and give you a console-mode menu like you're used to.

3) EFI is very common. All Apple computers use it. Most PC (Windows / Linux) laptops use it (your laptop probably does if it was made in the last 4 years). EFI drops into BIOS emulation mode after boot because Windows doesn't support it.

4) EFI machines generally allocate a small EFI partition on the hard drive, particularly if they use GPT. All Intel-based machines boot from flash memory and would successfully boot without this partition. This partition is for additional EFI firmware volumes or drivers that can be dynamically loaded.

5) EFI is much better than BIOS. It runs in full 32/64 bit mode. It can dynamically load drivers built into the ROM of your hardware (like a video card) and therefore doesn't have to rely on ancient backward-compatibility modes. It can run "apps", like a safe firmware updater so you don't have to boot your PC with a DOS boot disk to update the firmware. It can communicate a lot of configuration information to the OS and even provide hooks for some low level hardware-specific drivers. It can do things like boot from a network-shared CD-ROM drive or from a disk image stored on a USB stick (without resorting to making bootable partitions and jumping through a bunch of hoops like your average Linux USB stick). EFI can read FAT, NTFS, EXT2, HFS+ filesystems and boot the kernel directly from there (and the initrd image) without involving grub or other second stage boot loader. It can boot your GPT-tagged disks in your chosen order no matter what order you changed them around (take your boot drive, move it to a USB enclosure, boot from it).

Booting Intel machines is really fucking complicated, and EFI makes it much simpler.

Re:What EFI is and isn't

[oxygene2k2]

Intel delivers all of their boot support code as EFI drivers these days.

But not as open source. Tiano is a huge bunch of code, but the really interesting bits aren't in there.

EFI is much better than BIOS. It runs in full 32/64 bit mode.

coreboot welcomes you to 1999. Besides that: why is it that EFI exists in "either 32 or 64bit", instead of cleanly supporting both? The additional complexity of thunking libraries can't be it, as tiano already provides a runtime loader to resolve in-flash libraries...

Booting Intel machines is really fucking complicated, and EFI makes it much simpler.

Sorry, but EFI is fucking complicated, too. runtime linker - I rest my case.
It's just that you don't have to care about this complexity when intel provides the closed source components to you to plug in.

The most reasonable action about EFI over the last few years was the EFI shell effort. Finally Intel admits that they designed an operating system instead of a hardware bringup.

Again FUD about BIOS/MBR limitations

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's get it straight:
- BIOS + MBR can boot from drives larger than 2TB

- BIOS + GPT works for boot drives as long as you use some other OS than Windows

EFI is needed only if your boot partition (note, a partition isn't the same thing as a drive) is larger than 2TB AND you are using Windows.

That's the current limitation, when hard drives start to use 4K sectors externally, you will able to boot from 16TB partitions and fully use the space of 32TB hard drives using the BIOS + MBR + Windows combination. For the average consumer, there isn't a need to adopt EFI anytime soon.

Tomorrow's news

[harris s newman]

"Hackers announce first vulnerability for UEFI BIOS, demonstrated".

UEFI ?

[bytesex]

Is it going to need the sacrifice of a megabyte of my harddisk - just like EFI ? Or will it be content to live in its own solid state somewhere. Didn't RTFA by the way, it probably shows.

Re:UEFI ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sacrifice a megabyte? You are worried about a frickin' megabyte when today's hard drives are in terabytes? Idiot.

EFI extension rootkits! YAY!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well isn't this just great? A huge bloated piece of proprietary software that can be extended with more proprietary software. Yay!

I see great possibilities for rootkits here...

"A particularly interesting aspect is UEFI can run programs ("extension") and is not tied to the mother board memory chip. There is thus no obstacle to download the diagnostic software, overclocking tools or other applications, but for the sake of having to boot the real OS."

I just love the "or other applications"... there's quite some potential there :-)

Why not just flash CoreBoot, GRUB2, SeaBIOS and GPXE into the flash chip? If it works for LANL...

Re:EFI extension rootkits! YAY!

[turgid]

Typical intel. Instead of using, e.g. a Free implementation" of an Open Standard that is robust and mature, they invent their own proprietary, incompatible one.