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Facebook Postings Lead To Arrest for Heresy In the West Bank
forand writes "Using screen shots of a customer's Facebook profile, owners of a West Bank internet cafe helped Palestinian intelligence forces capture a man accused of heresy." According to sources quoted in the story, residents of both Gaza and the West Bank face ongoing scrutiny of their online activities; in Gaza, "Internet cafe owners are forced to monitor customers' online activity and alert intelligence officials if they see anything critical of the militant group or that violates Hamas' stern interpretation of Islam."
A mysterious blogger who set off an uproar in the Arab world by claiming he was God and hurling insults at the Prophet Muhammad is now behind bars — caught in a sting that used Facebook to track him down.
I found myself surprised that Palestine is so easy to troll. Then I was even more surprised that I was surprised even for a second.
Many in this conservative Muslim town say that isn't enough, and suggested he should be killed for renouncing Islam. Even family members say he should remain behind bars for life.
I have never respected trolls before, but I guess there's a first time for everything. If he does get executed, someone should really saint him. Pastafarians maybe.
...is what they are! This shows how dangerously crazy these people are. They are the enemies of freedom like all religious fanatics! Anybody who thinks people should be locked up for life or even murdered because of antireligious religious statements are people that are enemies of western values. The problem is that we have no good way of dealing with these lunatics when large parts of entire societies are thinking like this. It's like the West in the Middle Ages.
When 1person suffers from a delusion,it is called insanity.When many people suffer from a delusion,it is called religion
I'm glad to know that this is the kind of freedom the brave Palestinian fighters are fighting Israel for. To have a Taliban lifestyle imposed on themselves.
Not now. But low cost handheld devices using encryption over public networks will go a step in the right direction.
Wait, so you're saying there's no religious freedom here because religious people are free protest other religions?
I agree.. if western cultures defended freedom with the same vigilance (not the same methods) as hamas, hamas wouldn't exist..
Not using Facebook will.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
This is not an issue specific to PA territories: in any islamic country you would be screwed if you logged in to Facebook as God and criticized islam. The same would have happened in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey etc. Sadly, the problem is with islamism (and maybe with islam).
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
how so? shouldn't you have the right not to be forced to believe whatever religion is the fad? the freedom to worship also means the freedom not to be forced to do so.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
I'm not sure what you mean.. I just meant that we need more testicular fortitude when dealing with wannabe tyrants like hamas...whether they live inside or outside our borders is immaterial. I'm a fan of individual liberty.
Supporting terrorists as our government might have been a bad idea after all... who could have known?
Bad idea? The locals seem to be quite rejoiced at the thought of this little witch hunt. From TFA:
Many in this conservative Muslim town say that isn't enough, and suggested he should be killed for renouncing Islam. Even family members say he should remain behind bars for life.
"He should be burned to death," said Abdul-Latif Dahoud, a 35-year-old Qalqiliya resident. The execution should take place in public "to be an example to others," he added.
When these folks elected Hamas, they knew full well what they were getting into. Keep that in mind next time Israeli steamrolls over the place after a bunch more missiles launched from there land in Israeli towns.
Meanwhile a family was evacuated from his house in Jerusalem where he lived for 30 years to make way for a settler family last week. A peaceful protest was broken up in Bil’in by tear gas and riot police.
Extremist settlers burned a Jerusalem church
Settlers spray graffiti on mosque in Nablus,
run over a man in Qalqiliya,
attack a teenager in Hebron
and the IDF assasinates two people in Gaza last week
but what do we read about that in the US? No, of course not. That would be too much reality for Americans. Instead we get a story about how those Hamas fiends are cracking down on the internet cafes. We get stories about bad the Iranians are to their women. Its as if they only perspective we get is one that shows us that these 'people' have a archaic, violent culture....ignore the 60 year occupation, ignore the two wars that US just launched over there, lets pick apart and find fault in THEIR culture. They're the violent people! Yeah right...
Theres a great film on You Tube called 'Planet of the Arab', check it out sometime.
http://mondoweiss.net/
It helps us in the long run. Sure, in the short run, supplanting a monster with a bigger, more atrocious one helps. But where does that get us?
If there is anything to the claim that we represent the "free world", we have to play relatively clean, lest it becomes nothing but shallow rhetoric.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
well if you're a stateless refugee than you have no individual liberty...if objectively looked at who Hamas are and what they are fighting for, you'd see they have everything in common with people who want freedom.
try doing it sometime. Imagine you come from another planet, look at the worlds conflicts from an outsiders perspective...you'll see things arent as clean cut as what the TV tells you.
Westerners did "defend" their values (such as they were) several hundred years ago, like this and it wasn't any prettier than Hamas' attempt.
So let's not claim that Islam has a monopoly on repression.
Dude, honestly? Given that kids there grow up watching a rabbit puppet wax enthusiastic about eating Jews[1] and a Mickey Mouse-alike raving about martyrdom on the phone with kids[2], then it's quite obvious Palestinians do not give a crap about their children.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0&feature=related
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related
From the article:
The media in the Palestinian Authority, as in the Arab world in general, are largely government-controlled, driving dissenting voices to the relative freedom of the Internet. The blogger's arrest showed a willingness on the part of the Palestinian government to clamp down on freedom of speech on the Web as well. He now faces a potential life prison sentence on heresy charges for "insulting the divine essence."
Many in this conservative Muslim town say that isn't enough, and suggested he should be killed for renouncing Islam. Even family members say he should remain behind bars for life.
"He should be burned to death," said Abdul-Latif Dahoud, a 35-year-old Qalqiliya resident. The execution should take place in public "to be an example to others," he added.
Few have come forward to defend him. One was Zainab Rashid, a liberal Palestinian commentator, who wrote in an online opinion piece that Husayin had made the important point that "criticizing religious texts for their (intellectual) weakness can only be combatted by ... oppression, prison and execution." ...
Gaza's Hamas rulers also stalk Facebook pages for suspected dissenters, said Palestinian rights activist Mustafa Ibrahim. He said Internet cafe owners are forced to monitor customers' online activity and alert intelligence officials if they see anything critical of the militant group or that violates Hamas' stern interpretation of Islam.
Freedom. I do not think this word means what you think it means.
In this case, it means the freedom to be oppressive and violate the freedom of others, in accordance with their religion.
War is won by the most violent -- Clausewitz
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Well, considering Christianity has about 600 years of a head start on Islam they seem to be pretty much at the same stage respectively.
Freedom. I do not think this word means what you think it means.
Or you. Try living in a country that is actively oppressed, where the supply of practically everything is subject to the whims of some outside force, which invades every now and then with military vehicles and just might shoot your friends, bulldoze your house, or yourself. Freedom gets a much more simple and immediate meaning there than "freedom of speech on the web". That's how the human mind works - you need to have your base desires satisfied before you start thinking about more abstract things.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if you think that Hamas is thing restricting freedom from the Palestenians.
Besides a 60 year occupation...2 million people in Gaza have been living in virtual open air prison for the past 4 years. Israel controls every product that enters gaza to the extent that they recieve just enough food not to starve, but too much so they reproduce.
The fact that we're reading an article about Hamas restricting freedom and not this, if you know the area, is absurd.
Here is article about kindly Israeli/Harvard professor calling for the restriction of pre-natel subsidizes (food) to prevent Palestenians from breeding too much.
If this was any other country doing this, we'd all be up in arms, but because its us and they're muslims...its eh...whatever
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/harvard-prof-urges-popula_b_472191.html
Palestinians can't even handle interactions among themselves peacefully when they're busy throwing rival politicians off roofs[1] in Gaza and viciously beating their own civilians[2].
If that surprises you, them you obviously haven't looked at (for example) just what the IRA got up to during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. We're only just starting to track down a decent number of the corpses of civilians who were taken from their homes by IRA hit squads never to be seen from again. Then there's the kneecappings and the extortion and the general organised crime. Fraternising with members of the wrong Christian sect was very bad and often fatal idea. The IRA, at their peak, made Hamas and co look positively pleasant - and their equivalents on the Unionist side weren't exactly better.
Oh, and did I mention that US politicians have been protecting IRA members from being extradited for their own political advantage? The IRA had a lot of political and financial support within the US, and an awful lot of their weapons came from there IIRC.
That "country" is oppressed because that "country" is at war with Israel and these sort of people given more freedoms would be wiping the Israelis out with even greater enthusiasm than wiping out their own heretics.
If you think they're just going change and be so nice to Jews, Christians and pagans you should take a really close look at the history of Islam.
If they don't change their popular core beliefs you will always have problems with them:
http://www.tawfikhamid.com/abcs-test-for-radical-islam/
It's the Palestinian authorities that are acting like lunatics here. The very fact that they have much much bigger troubles like helping their citizens survive under all the pressure means that they shouldn't waste their time prosecuting people for being critical of Islam. It seems like they have their priorities mixed up and that makes it a question of freedom.
Freedom gets a much more simple and immediate meaning there than "freedom of speech on the web".
There is nothing "abstract" about government goons showing up on your doorstep in order to haul you away for your execution because of your religious beliefs. Any government that does this is not legitimate and does not deserve anybody's support.
If Palestinians want to govern themselves, they have to prove to Israel that they can guarantee Israel's security, and they have to prove to the rest of the world that they can be considered a legitimate government. That's just the facts. They are failing on both accounts.
And you're right that this being an Islamic government is responsible for people in the West not supporting them, because nearly all Muslim governments are highly intolerant of other religions and intrinsically undemocratic. Why should I want to support governments that want to imprison or kill me for my religious beliefs? I will not put my support behind an Islamic government of any form because such governments have never worked. If they want my political support, these people need to start separating church and state. Frankly, I prefer an occupied Palestine to a Palestine governed by Islamic fundamentalists.
The Israeli penal code does make blasphemy illegal (output from Google Translate):
170. Destroying, damaging, or desecrating a place of worship, or any object held sacred crowd of people, deliberately degrade their religion, or knowingly that they may see this act an insult to their religion, Dino - three years imprisonment.
173. Makes one of the following countries - one year's imprisonment; (1) Publishes advertising that injure blatantly religious beliefs or their feelings of others; (2) Makes a public place and in the hearing of a certain word or sound that may harm the faith or gross violation of religious feelings. (3) Harm our sons public tombstones
Not as severe as Islamic blasphemy laws, but they still make blasphemy illegal.
Interpreting US actions in the ME as empire building and creation of religious regimes doesn't make much sense. The US doesn't build empires in the traditional sense, but it wants military superiority to ensure free trade (which is in US economic interests) and US safety. And US foreign policy does use religion when it seems expedient, but not as an end in itself. I don't think those policies are wise, but they are a far cry from what other world powers have done to nations around the world.
Meh. I'm sure this is Israel's fault, somehow. After all, everybody knows that all the human rights abuses in Gaza are the result of military action by Israel. They must have put hamas up to it, and forced them to monitor this Internet cafe, and then forced them to arrest the guy. :-/
They also forced his family to publicly say all those things about keeping him behind bars.
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
And if the queen had balls, she'd be king.
If "western cultures" "defended" "freedom" with the same "vigilance" as Hamas, then they wouldn't be cultures worth defending.
It bugs me when people write shit because it sound noble, but don't think about what it means.
How do you "defend freedom" anyway? Is "by making sure a mosque can be built on private property in Lower Manhattan" anywhere on the list of "defending freedom"?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Think about what you're saying.
You are welcome on my lawn.
If Palestinians want to govern themselves, they have to prove to Israel that they can guarantee Israel's security, and they have to prove to the rest of the world that they can be considered a legitimate government
That's exactly what we said about another country, a bit over 200 years ago.
-- The British Government
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The case of American Indians is quite complex and modern enough to be well documented. Much like many modern programs of attack on a particular group, there were people seeking financial advantage (land speculators and gold seekers, etc.) and people motivated by hatred (Andrew Jackson, a favorite of many Americans, especially Democrats, is a prime example). Of course, many people were dupes, didn't care, or actually opposed the attacks. The fact that the Amerinds were not particularly advanced ("savages") was more of an excuse for ignoring their rights than a reason for killing them.
There were many different tribes of Indians and they didn't all behave alike. A few were aggressive, and many had a much lower value for human life (particularly for those who weren't a member of their own tribe) than we take for granted today. One tribe's attack on a peaceful settlement was used to besmirch all; a behavior both understandable and despicable.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
If you think they're just going change and be so nice to Jews, Christians and pagans you should take a really close look at the history of Islam.
Well... if we are to follow THAT logic all catholic countries should be sterilized by nuclear weapons - just because of their religion's history of going to unprovoked "Crusades" i.e. raping/pillaging wars. No need to mention inquisition but I will. Inquisition.
Then... USA should be sunk under the ocean.
I know that it would be a hard thing to do, but its history of genocide over the local population, slavery, stealing land from Mexico, destroying the world economy on several occasions and being the only country in the world to ever perform a nuclear attack on anyone...
Well, you can't really argue with all that history.
Then, the former Soviet Union. Kill everyone. History demands it.
Same with China. India too...
Ah fuck it, let's just kill everyone everywhere and then just to be sure hurl the Earth into the Sun.
"fighting for liberty"
I don't know how old you are, but seriously at some point you have to understand the difference between the image and the reality.
"fighting for liberty"
thats the image you're taught...the reality is slavery, no sufferage for women, genoicde of native americans.
Its important to reconize that as its all over history and current events...Image = Operation Iraqi freedom! Reality = see wikileaks
Image= Our great democratic ally and bastion of freedom in the Middle East..Reality=Israel who has the most UN resolutions against it in the world...and who is ethnically cleansing the native people of the area.
Seriously, turn off the TV for a few weeks and thing about the world using your own mind instead of just repeating slogans like 'Americans were fighting for liberty ..."
It does not work that way. For each force there is counter force. The more Israel will push Palestinians the more radical they will become. Look at Germany and Russia after WW1, look at Korea. Keeping 2M people imprisoned like that is on thin line to become a genocide.
Try living in a country that is actively oppressed, where the supply of practically everything is subject to the whims of some outside force
Considering what the Hamas government does, I think those outside forces aren't so whimsical at all.
That's how the human mind works - you need to have your base desires satisfied before you start thinking about more abstract things.
The problem here is that what you call "base desires" and "abstract things" aren't as clearcut as that.
From the religious fanatic point of view, the "base desire" is their religion, things like food or medicine are "abstract things" for them.
s/in accordance with their religion//
I agree that this a violation of freedom, but this is a case of religion being subverted for political reasons, not a problem with the religion. Almost every religious group has had its fanatics at one time or another.
Admittedly I don't know a large fraction of the worlds Muslim population (something like 18.5%) but the Muslim folks that I know don't interpret their religion that way.
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if you think that Hamas is thing restricting freedom from the Palestenians.
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if you think that it's a binary issue. Because the Israelis are doing bad things, Hamas must be pure and good?
It must be nice having an ideology that is so clear cut. Blaming Israel for everything certainly seems like an easy way of rationalizing what happens in Gaza/the West Bank. But you are the one, after all, who suggested we pretend that we "come from another planet" earlier in this thread, and yet you blame Israel even for actions that are very obviously the choices of Hamas. Israel has nothing to do with Hamas's oppression of their own people.
You can criticize Israel for its blockade, for its demolition of houses, for its wall, and for a whole host of other abuses it has indeed committed, and should be ashamed of. But when it comes to Hamas oppressing people for trying to speak out freely and practice (or not practice) Islam in the way they wish, Israel has absolutely no say in this, and their occupation is entirely tangential to the issue at hand in this article.
Smiths, you are the one who needs to step back and realize that you have become entrenched by an ideology.
You've fallen into the same classic trap as a lot of conservative thinkers. Tyranny and freedom are opposites. Tyranny of the majority is tyranny. Therefore, they are not free in any meaningful sense of the word.
More importantly, such tyranny is unsustainable. In a few hundred years, when the Catholic, Jewish, or Buddhist minority population explodes (and this is a likely scenario---minorities tend to have lower income, and people with lower income often produce more offspring), at some magic point, the Muslims will be in the minority. You can safely assume that at this point, the oppressed will turn on their oppressors and pass laws that oppress them in turn. Eventually, equilibrium will be achieved, but can the human race really be expected to have the patience to wait that long while people commit heinous acts of murder in the name of God?
See, here's the thing. As far as I'm concerned, if you're killing someone for God, you're not reading your scripture correctly. Those rules were not written by God. They were written by man in a time that rightfully should be left in the past. Ask yourself this: if Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, how can they ignore his teachings so willingly? The good Samaritan, for example, preaches religious tolerance; the man Jesus chose to uphold as an example of how to live was of a people that his apostles would despise, in part due to religious differences, and who would have despised the man he helped because of similar differences.
There are many, many more examples of this---so much so that anyone who requires death over differing religious beliefs has blinders on, focusing on a tiny section of their religious text to the exclusion of the majority of it. In short, those who would kill in God's name, by doing so, blaspheme it, and should, by their same standards, be put to death. There's some irony for you.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Exactly the same right and authority that they have to tell me how to read mine, and more to the point, the exact same right and authority that they have to kill people who do not subscribe to their belief system. None, in other words.
I am merely expressing an opinion. They can have different opinions. It's when those opinions become manifest in real-world actions that they become good or evil, and killing those who merely express differences of opinion falls pretty clearly on the evil side of the line in any civilized society. Indeed, this is by definition what differentiates civilization from barbarianism.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
In this case, it means the freedom to be oppressive and violate the freedom of others, in accordance with their religion.
Blasphemy as a crime is common in most religious societies. John William Gott was the last person in Britain to be imprisoned for heresy, in 1921. The last person to be executed for heresy in Britain was Thomas Aikenhead in 1697. Both had been critical of Christianity. The fact that Hamas are only going to imprison this man, rather than execute him, suggests that their law is only 90 years behind that of Britain.
Freedom of religion is not exactly in the US constitution - all it says is that the US congress cannot pass a law establishing or restricting the "free exercise" of religion which is not the same as granting a right of freedom of religion. In the US case there is nothing in the constitution to prevent any private corporation refusing to hire anyone who is (or is not) of religion X - although I understand that you do have laws for that.
If it were that you were granted the right of "freedom of religion" then extra laws would not be required: all corporations and individuals would be also bound to respect it. The difference might be subtle but in the current climate of increasing corporate power it may turn out to be a very important one.
If they want my political support, these people need to start separating church and state.
The separation of Church and state in the United States was a wonderful idea of the Founding Fathers, but it is not something that is common throughout the Western world. England has the Church of England, Finland has the Church of Finland, etc, and when it comes to the separation of politics and religion, there are many Christian political parties that wield power in government.
Given that we have not yet achieved a complete separation of Church and state in the West, I think it is somewhat unrealistic to think that Muslim countries are going to be so forward thinking.
No Hamas is not pure and good..but this story IMO is not the most important thing Americans should be aware of RE I/P.
In the US you will read endless stories about how bad hamas is, how crazy those muslims, but Americans will get very little of the reality of what I/P is about, a reality that the rest of world is well aware of.
I was in the WTC for both attacks. Afterwards I investigated why we were attacked. The terrorists said we were attacked because of support for Israel. The govt and media said we were attacked because they hate our freedom. That is a lie.
Our policy towards I/P hasent changed a lick since 9/11. Now after we kill all the "terrorists"...were up to what now? 150K? Eventually we will have to face reality and Americans will have to learn about I/P...this story frankly is, even if true, even if terrible a waste of peoples time considering what is going on over there.
We get upset over someone being arrested for blasphamy but the 60 year occupation, aparthied, that gets ignored by most Americans. Something is wrong here.
mondoweiss.net
I agree that this a violation of freedom, but this is a case of religion being subverted for political reasons, not a problem with the religion. Almost every religious group has had its fanatics at one time or another.
Religion is a political subversion.
The Quran, in isolation, is not a religion. Same goes for the Sunnah, or the Bible, or other "primary sources." Human language is not a programming language, where one word corresponds to one action. No text of sufficient complexity can be understood in a uniform, objective, everyone-sees-the-same-thing way. Same goes double if the text is ancient, translated, or literary.
Instead, there are many interpreters--scholars, imams, clerics--who stand in the way and impose their own views, knowingly or unknowingly, on the original texts. Their own views create a new version of the text in their minds and the minds of those who listen to or read them. Simply by citing a certain passage and omitting a less compelling passage, they are creating a new narrative with its own strengths and foibles. Each narrative is built upon previous narratives (it is difficult to read one of these holy books in isolation without somehow being exposed to other believers, teachers, footnotes/annotations, or the media). Despite the differences (minute or extreme) between narratives, each narrative shares a lot in common with one another.
As opposed to an individual's narrative, the religion can be found in the complex web of relationships between books, theories, and people. Just like no one computer comprises the Internet, the entire network of relationships makes up the religion (and the Internet). And that complex web--the religion--is also a web of political relationships. Those politics are replete with broken promises, exaggerated fears, and insipid bullying--human problems from human politics. It's impossible to exonerate one's own narrative from the sticky web of human politics. You can't stand on the sidelines, because you're in it, no matter how badly you distance yourself from the ugly politics of it all.
Those fanatics you mention can't be so easily dismissed when they live in your web. Humanist Christians and liberal Muslims, take note: you need to own up to and speak out against your most destructive members. Especially when those members rule countries, lead political parties, and fund extreme acts of violence.
Liberties like being able to steal land (Americans were very pissed off at King George for wanting to treat the natives the same as everyone else), not have Roman Catholics in the government (Americans were very pissed off after Quebec joined the British Empire and the oath to the King was changed to allow Catholics in the government) and the liberty to undemocratically force the majority to go along with them.
You guys were just lucky that between independence and the writing of the constitution that a bunch of liberals were in power. There was a large push for your own King.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
How about this one:
Image= The downtrodden Palestinians being occupied by the genocidal Israelis. Reality: Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of an internationally recognized state while hiding behind the suffereing of their people who's leadership lives free in Syria.
Hamas is a the child of a war declared by The Arab States to eliminate the State of Israel (The State being created by the UN). They lost the war but still will not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their main goal is still to eliminate Israel. Check the Hamas Covenant articles 12 and 13. By article 13 they will not even negotiate a peace treaty.
I am not in complete agreement with everything Israel has done but what do you expect Israel to do when they are continually subjected to rocket attacks and suicide bombers? The Palestinians started it and the will not quit.
Btw, Fatah is at least trying to be reasonable.
Old Testament God was pretty interesting. He's a very human (albeit mentally deranged) character who likes to play games with the mortals and isn't afraid to personally come down and kick some arse. The basic message was "I'll do whatever the hell I want, and maybe that includes fucking you up". The sequel became a bit too preachy, and they clearly cast a new actor to play the part of God, but there are still parts in which the old "fuck you all and your donkeys" attitude of God shines through.
By the way. I'd give it 2000 years just to be on the safe side.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
Man, I have to re-read this shat before I post it and check for grammatical errors....
oh well....I hear what you're saying, and I'm sure you're partly right. I may be a few degrees too idealistic. That happens when you know whats going on over there and you realize how little of that truth is being spoken about in America. But even if I go to far what I'm saying closer to the truth than the crap was first posted about this story.
Those comments were similar to what I see about Iraq. After we bomb their cities, destroy their goverment and society...then when theres anarchy and bombings...Americans read about it and say 'oh my they are so violent! It must be because of their religion!'
Same as with the reaction to Hamas in this story.
To ignore the political things and lay it all at the feat of their culture and religion is a delusion.