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Tide of International Science Moving Against US, EU

explosivejared writes "The Economist has a story on the increasing scientific productivity of countries like China, India, and Brazil relative to the field's old guards in America, Europe, and Japan. Scientific productivity in this sense includes percent of GDP spent on R&D and the overall numbers of researchers, scholarly articles, and patents that a country produces. The article notes increasing levels of international collaboration on scholarly scientific articles in leading journals. From the article: '[M]ore than 35% of articles in leading journals are now the product of international collaboration. That is up from 25% 15 years ago — something the old regime and the new alike can celebrate.'" Note that the "old guard" are still firmly in the lead on these measures of scientific prowess, but the growth rate is higher in the newcomer states.

43 of 302 comments (clear)

  1. Just too bad by countertrolling · · Score: 5, Funny

    We here in the States have much more pressing issues at the moment... Science is for pagans and heathens

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    1. Re:Just too bad by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I read that article and I think maybe they're trying to solve the wrong problem. Rather than training more priests to perform exorcisms maybe they need to stop looking for demons in everything.

    2. Re:Just too bad by paiute · · Score: 5, Funny

      I read that article and I think maybe they're trying to solve the wrong problem. Rather than training more priests to perform exorcisms maybe they need to stop looking for demons in everything.

      When all you've got is holy water, every problem looks like a demon.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    3. Re:Just too bad by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you think that religious fanaticism doesn't have anything to do with the (relative) decline in US scientific productivity, you haven't been paying attention.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    4. Re:Just too bad by Urkki · · Score: 5, Funny

      I say make more people MBAs! We need more MBAs!!

      (What do MBAs actually do? Cause at my work all they seem to do is regurgitate things I say and make very boring power point presentations with the same clip art and generic percentage data about general stuff)

      MBAs talk to other MBAs. It takes an MBA to do that, really. Without MBAs in between, you don't know what engineers and other riff-raff would be up to. Just look at the OSS communities without MBAs, they're total disasters, no useful output what so ever, total waste of human resources.

    5. Re:Just too bad by PietjeJantje · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes and no. Your sig says "correlation is not causation". Yes, religious fanaticism and in general anti-intellectuals make intellect almost look suspicious at times, and this is something we should worry about. However, I'd argue that religion is stronger in India and Brazil, were science is on the up according to this report. This suggests that religion is not the defining factor. I think it has an impact on some parts of science, for example if a religion is against biotech, biotech would clearly suffer, but while these areas will be highlighted, it doesn't affect the whole of science in pure numbers in terms of productivity, because the whole dwarfs those areas. Personally, I think the problem is there is more money and respect for smart brains elsewhere, such as in finance. Perhaps not religious fanaticism is he defining factor, but greed and the lack of necessity.

    6. Re:Just too bad by mrvan · · Score: 4, Funny

      Our Coder who art in heaven,
      hallowed be thy namespace.
      Thy pointers come.
      Thy loops be done
      in source as it is in binary.
      Give us this day our daily bread,
      and forgive us our spaghetti code,
      as we forgive those who spaghetti codes us,
      and lead us not into the goto,
      but deliver us from evil.
      For thine is the editor,
      and the compiler, and the linker,
      for ever and ever.
      Amen.

  2. patents/capita by seanadams.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Judging scientific productivity in terms of patents filed is like measuring software value in lines of code. I realize that's not the only metric here but the fact that they're even looking at it this way is ridiculous.

    1. Re:patents/capita by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not only that, one of the other measures of "productivity" was the amount of money spent. That's not what "productivity" means.

      The number of published papers *that get cited by others* would be a much better metric.

    2. Re:patents/capita by toQDuj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Except that there is a bonus _per paper written_ in f.ex. Chinese institutes, so that it becomes very attractive to just swamp the community with papers. And when you write papers, you cite your colleagues.

      There simply is no good metric. You have to judge the quality of the papers and authors by reading them. Tht is not the answer accounting departments want to hear, though.

      --
      Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
    3. Re:patents/capita by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that there is a bonus _per paper written_ in f.ex. Chinese institutes, so that it becomes very attractive to just swamp the community with papers. And when you write papers, you cite your colleagues.

      There's something similar in India where, I think, you're required to publish at least one refereed paper as an undergrad to get your degree. The result is a tsunami of really, really low-quality papers.

      You have to judge the quality of the papers and authors by reading them.

      Exactly. A million appalling undergraduate-student papers published under duress don't come close to a single piece of quality research. The OP never really seemed to factor this in, it just looked at quantity. Heck, gimme a printing press and SCIgen and I can make Burkina Faso a world leader in science publication, at least until they run out of trees.

    4. Re:patents/capita by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How about the number of non-falsified and non-plagiarized works? Suddenly China disappears! *gasp*

    5. Re:patents/capita by toQDuj · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Take a look at lab time per dollar. You might find that the Chinese researchers put in ten hours, and we put in one for the same cost, and Europe is the same.

      Like many bosses say: "Ten hours in the lab can save you one hour in the library". In my eyes, working hard does not beat working a little and thinking a lot. Research simply takes time.

      --
      Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
    6. Re:patents/capita by drsquare · · Score: 4, Funny

      In the USA/Europe?UK faculty and employee unions impoverish their research institutions with demands.

      Yeah, that's the problem, science workers just get paid too much money...

    7. Re:patents/capita by ben2umbc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure, but also take a look at the top researchers in American schools. They are Chinese, Indian, and Russian. Whats troubling is the lack of American kids doing the research these days. Many of the universities in China and India are ultra-competitive, those students have a lot more competition being that their countries only contain over 2.5 billion people combined. You may laugh about how India churns out all those undergrads with research skills, but you probably didn't laugh when your job was sent overseas to somebody who can do the same work cheaper.

      America needs to invest in its education on ALL LEVELS, or the gap between the educated and the ignorant will continue growing and the USA is going to be on the losing end of that battle.

      As other countries invest in education, we war monger and fund political campaigns. Our GDP should be spent on research, and education - not on war, and not on foreign oil. That is the only way to ensure long-term financial solvency in the US. Take for example the great space race of the 1960s, when Kennedy challenged this nation to reach for the moon. We educated ourselves and built up US industry and improved our GDP. And then we got to the moon, and became complacent. We need a new challenge for the 21st century. If Obama challenged the US to become energy sufficient - to not rely on foreign sources of energy, and backed that up with providing money for research to make the next generation technology today's technology not only would we invest in our future with education, but provide us with the cost savings in energy to actually bring down the national debt.

      Meanwhile the ice caps are melting and congress is too full of itself to even come up with a climate bill. For shame on us, we should all look to India and China for inspiration, not incompetency.

  3. Chinese science by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Informative
    FTFA:

    But citation of English-language articles in Chinese journals by other publications remains low.

    Maybe it's because Chinese science isn't trustworthy enough?

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:Chinese science by godrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is well known in the academic field that if you keep sending your crappy paper to journals, it will eventually get published. And I can tell you that I review a LOT a crap those days. Measuring papers is stupid,, it won't discriminate good papers from bad papers. The editors are supposed not to publish bad papers, but eventually they will. There is no good (IMHO) to discriminate those. So let's not use the number of paper as a metric of how good countries are at science.

      In which country do people go for their study if they ARE going to another country looks like a much better metric to me. And let's face it, no one goes to india, china or brazil. It might come and I wish that eventually they will. I wish those country will produce good science. But let's face it. Right now, they have 20 years to catch up.

  4. Here's the solution by nbauman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've got a great idea.

    Instead of making college free like other countries, let's raise the cost of going to college so high that nobody can afford it.

    Instead, we'll let them take out loans that will put them in debt for the rest of their lives.

    We'll make the interest rates so high that they'll never be able to pay it off.

    And to stop them from going bankrupt like businessmen or anybody else who is overwhelmed by debt, we'll make it illegal for them to go bankrupt.

    (Note to self: Don't forget to underpay science teachers and destroy teachers' unions.)

    1. Re:Here's the solution by AnonymousClown · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I gotta add some thing to make your idea even better!

      Let's also have society not value science and let's put superstitious thought on equal ground - say "Intelligent Design" or some other such nonsense on par with Evolution. Or have folks poo-poo a rational explanation because the idea of reincarnation just fits the "facts" so much better. And when someone who tries to put the rational view forward and discount the superstition, let's call that person "intolerant" of others beliefs.

      There! Now, I am going to pray to the almighty Zeus - the creator and master of ALL gods - so that HE'll forgive all this science non-sense and the worship of the mythical God of Abraham.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:Here's the solution by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We should support Teachers; however, My 8 year old student should also have the benefit of a Union.

    3. Re:Here's the solution by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I strongly disagree with every point you've made, but I guess that's the point isn't it? We're making debt an addiction and never letting anyone get better.

      The US needs to change its financial industry's philosophy of squeezing every penny out of its own people rather than increasing the productivity out of its real investments. People are not their investment, they are their junkies.

    4. Re:Here's the solution by Godskitchen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Making college free" - you mean using tax dollars to pay the tuition for... everyone? As it stands, probably 50% of the people who show up for class at university should have settled for trade school. Instead, they will spend 5-6 years getting a philosophy or art degree and then working as an assistant manager at Borders. I don't want to subsidize this any more than I already have to (interest deferred school loans).

    5. Re:Here's the solution by Godskitchen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh God! A Borders assistant manager.

    6. Re:Here's the solution by Godskitchen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People should be responsible for their actions. This includes the debt they accumulate. We shouldn't have to legislate to the lowest common denominator.

    7. Re:Here's the solution by Pharmboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So we should go back to the high taxes on rich folks like we had before Reagan? Yea, the 70s were really productive years for the US.

      Perhaps we should find a balance, and understand that most people making $250k to $500k a year actually earn it, and if you overtax people in those brackets, they have no reason to continue to invest in their companies (most of them ARE self employed). So you literally tax away jobs as well when you raise taxes on the "rich" to 70%. Keep in mind that people who make just $159,619 or more are in the top 5% of wage earners, but pay 58% of all income taxes. People who make $380,354 or more (1% of the population) already pay 38% of ALL income taxes earned. The "poor" people, making $33,048 or less may be plentiful, but pay less than 3% of all income taxes collected. I would instead say that we spend entirely too much on military, farm subsidies, and in general, while not investing OUR money in the right places, such as education and the sciences. "Rich bashing" is not nearly as productive as it is popular.

      http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html if you are interested.

      Reagan said it best: "No nation ever taxed itself into prosperity." Paraphrasing Margaret Thacher, you could also say that "the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money". In other words, you can't just tax rich people more and solve all the world's problems, and over-taxation will certainly cause a whole new set of problems.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    8. Re:Here's the solution by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Insightful

      :D

      Best series of responses, EVAR!

      Thanks for the initial comment - couldn't have said it better myself. We've already gotten to the point where college degrees are so common that they're essentially worthless - making them "free" by fleecing taxpayers would only exacerbate the problem.

    9. Re:Here's the solution by glebovitz · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Seems like an incredibly dubious argument to me. Faith and Science are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with atheists. It has to do with separation of scientific process and leaps of faith that can't be proven. Your arguments are typical of what the grandparent is trying to say. Faith assumes that observation is causality and science recognizes that observation can be related but not the cause. Tying observation to causality my be a natural defense in animals. We assume that the last thing we ate is the cause of our stomach ailments. This might be life saving, but it also makes us avoid things that don't make us sick. Science doesn't have this luxury. We need to root out causality to efficiently make scientific discovery. The beauty of science sometimes leads scientists to have faith is a high power, but it doesn't lead them to apply faith to the discovery process.

      What is also hurting our institutions is the changes made during the Reagan era to reduce funding to higher education and place taxes on graduate student stipends. This was driven by your same argument, "Gosh we should stop funding universities because they are turning out to many liberal arts degrees." The government stopped funding universities and forced them into a quasi for profit position. Universities started drawing from the foreign pool of students whose governments had the foresight to fund the education of future leaders of arts and sciences. It is not surprising that our universities have a disproportionate number of foreign students, and they are returning to their homelands with the knowledge to succeed in science and engineering.

      I think it is great that China and India have the wherewithal to see what is required to be a dominant economic and political power. They aren't sitting on slashdot arguing over faith versus science. They are just working hard at discovery knowing it will pay off.

    10. Re:Here's the solution by sznupi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So why exactly both of you haven't realized the easiest possible solution to this "problem"?

      (namely: focus on promoting hard science & engineering degrees ... as happens at my place, which generally does have free education - but, on top of that, recently many students of engineering studies can count on additional scholarship virtually just because of what they chose to study, as long as their results are decent)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    11. Re:Here's the solution by dachshund · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We've already gotten to the point where college degrees are so common that they're essentially worthless - making them "free" by fleecing taxpayers would only exacerbate the problem.

      Sure, if you start from the perspective that college education is a zero-sum game related to some piece of paper that lets you into the "club" of people who get good jobs. If you start from that perspective, then of course you don't want any competition.

      I would be perfectly happy living in a world where everyone had a college degree, provided the degrees actually came with a real education. I also think the country would be a whole lot richer in that case, probably by more than enough to make up for the "fleecing" you mention.

      In the real world, a more practical goal isn't to get everyone a college degree, but to make sure that talented people who could benefit from one (and consequently make us all richer) don't wind up flipping burgers instead 'cause they can't afford the tuition. Alternatively, we could just make sure that rich, dumb kids get all the opportunities.

    12. Re:Here's the solution by sesshomaru · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The idea is nonsensical that the US can remain the font of research, innovation, design, and engineering while the country ceases to make things. Research and product development invariably follow manufacturing. Now even business schools that were cheerleaders for offshoring of US jobs are beginning to wise up. In a recent report, "Next Generation Offshoring: The Globalization of Innovation," Duke University's Fuqua School of Business finds that product development is moving to China to support the manufacturing operations that have located there. -- A Workforce Betrayed: Watching Greed Murder the Economy, Paul Craig Roberts

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    13. Re:Here's the solution by mlts · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How about we add onto that -- everyone knows sports heroes and rock stars contribute far more to a society than advances in the hard sciences and engineering. We all know that 300 years from now, Justin Bieber's song lyrics will be immortalized and will become a must study for every student in future times, while the advances in graphene, memristors, and biofuels are absolutely meaningless and will be forgotten in ten years.

      It is far more important for high schools to have the football stadiums, and as big, if not larger Jumbotrons than the rival. Far more important than funding science labs, or hiring and retaining competent staff. Woe to the school district that doesn't have available skyboxes for parties during the Friday night games.

    14. Re:Here's the solution by potat0man · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People who make $380,354 or more (1% of the population) already pay 38% of ALL income taxes earned

      The fact that this is even possible indicates to me that there exists an inequity problem that NEEDS to be corrected through taxation.

      So we should go back to the high taxes on rich folks like we had before Reagan? Yea, the 70s were really productive years for the US.

      Sure, the 70's weren't so great when taxes were at 70%. But the 50's were pretty good when the top income bracket rate was 91%. So maybe the key is to get it back up to 91%.

    15. Re:Here's the solution by AxeTheMax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Keep in mind that people who make just $159,619 or more are in the top 5% of wage earners, but pay 58% of all income taxes.

      Do by any chance the top 5% of wage earners also get an undue percentage of the total of all income?

  5. Since were linking the Economist by pavon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here is another article by them about rampant fraud in China's research. More power to Brazil and other countries that are legitimately improving their scientific establishment rather than faking it till they make it.

  6. But is anyone reading their output? by DebateG · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The prestigious science journal Nature recently had an article on the best cities for science. They have some really cool interactive graphs showing scientific productivity of different parts of the world and how many citations each place gets. What struck me was how quickly China grew in terms of volume of publications, but how poorly their articles were cited. Whether that is due to papers being published in primarily Chinese language journals, the papers of being of poor quality, or the scientific community ignoring important papers coming from China for whatever reason is unclear, but I think it shows that other countries have a while to go before achieving scientific dominance.

    1. Re:But is anyone reading their output? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I, for one, welcome our new Mandarin speaking Chinese research Overlords. Or not.

      Given the fact that China, India, Brazil and a host of other countries are trying to shed their 'third world' moniker, I would both expect and accept the fact that these countries are starting to do more research.

      I'm not sure how anyone expects them to improve their technology base otherwise unless it's to simply to buy everything from the US / UK / EU. Where's the fun in that? Furthermore, it's not like the entrenched powers are keen on sharing much of what we know with other countries. So what the hell do you expect them to do? You can't download everything from the Internet.

      And besides, the US really needs this to occur. We need some scary boogeyman (preferably foreign) to create some sort of gap that we have to fill lest the American Way of Life become endangered. I am really hoping that the Chinese get a viable manned space program going in a few years so we can 'catch up'.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  7. Re:We don't need no science by LetterRip · · Score: 4, Informative

    We have Sarah Palin and she can see Russia from her front porch

    What Palin actually said was

    "They're our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska."

    http://www.slate.com/id/2200155/

    Which is literally true since from Little Diomede part of US territory and Alaska you can see Big Diomede which is under Russian control.

    A legitimate critique of Palin would be that she considered Russia being visible from an island of Alaska, as saying something useful about her international experience and foreign relations.

  8. Re:some us schools think collaboration = cheating by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Collaborating on papers which aren't handed out as collaborative papers is definitely cheating. What concerns me more is the implication that some US schools don't think that's cheating.

    Likewise, school work is to be done on ones own, except where indicated as a group task or in cases where one needs it explained.

  9. Not enough info by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I realize the linked article is in the Economist - but there's very little information regarding the methodology behind UNESCO's conclusions. What little that is there leads me to believe they're just doing bulk counting without regard to quality.

    From what I've seen (FWLIW I work in a university engineering department), the top minds of countries such as India and China do their best to get out of there. They take faculty positions in the US; they go to Europe; or they go to Taiwan or Japan.

    And while the article seems to imply that the lack of citation of China's journals from the western world might be some degree of latent racism, it provides zero evidence to support that conclusion. I am also left to wonder why Indian and Chinese scientists working in the west don't seem to have that problem.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  10. Re:Has anybody in the US by countertrolling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is concrete required in a steel framed building? And please, I hope you didn't expect the video to show every detail... The inspections could have been continuous throughout the process. For one thing, it's an early experiment. Improvements will be made. You seem to believe that their past history is a sure indicator of future progress. Stagnation is not universal. It's highly localized when considering the global scale. Right now some people are entering a dark period, and others are just coming out of one. Personally I don't care who does these things. I just like to see it get done.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  11. Re:some us schools think collaboration = cheating by Tacvek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That said, many teachers agree that student can work together on homework to figure out the approach to a problem, as long as they are not copying actual solutions (i.e. once the approach becomes clear, they stop and finish the problem independently, before moving on to the next problem). The vast majority of my teachers actively encouraged doing that, but were clear that merely copying solutions was very much unacceptable.

    A few of them further specified that if while collaborating on the approach the the group as a whole finds the solution, a notation to that effect should be added to the paper, so the grader does not assume the basically identical answers are a result of copying.

    One area none of the teachers ever touched was the collaborative process of checking answers against each other once everybody has completed the assignment. That is because that is a thorny area, and comes very close to the issue of simply coping answers. Done correctly, this process helps students find and understand mistakes they made, resulting in better understanding of the overall material, especially since by the time students get graded material back, and realize they made a mistake, the class has advanced far beyond that point, making students feel less comfortable asking questions, and also often just no longer care.

    --
    Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
  12. Who in their right mind would choose science? by xtal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My father has a PhD from a fancy school in the US. (Genetics)

    When I was looking at a career path, he warned me off pure science. He was right.

    Fighting for tenure and the climate towards R&D in general is nuts.

    The days of Bell labs, PARC et. al were great - people forget many of the advances today came out of those investments made by public and private industry.

    Now, increasingly, advances in semiconductor manufacturing, wireless tech - all comes from overseas.

    Sigh.
     

    --
    ..don't panic
  13. Re:Has anybody in the US by Tacvek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They may have been doing floor by floor inspections while the rest of the construction continued. There is little need for whole-building inspection for each construction phase, let each phase for a floor be inspected when that floor has completed that phase. That floor can then continue on to the next phase.

    It is hard to know for sure, but it looked like they were using pre-fab concrete slabs inserted in the lattice.

    The not pausing for settling is definitely a valid concern.

    --
    Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524