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Aussie Government Gives PDF the Thumbs Down

littlekorea writes "The central IT office of the Australian Government has advised its agencies to offer alternatives to Adobe's Portable Document Format to ensure folks with impaired vision are able to consume information on the Web. A Government-funded study found that PDFs can present themselves as image-only files to screen readers, rendering the information contained within them unreadable for the vision impaired."

29 of 179 comments (clear)

  1. southern hemisphere note! by Tumbleweed · · Score: 3, Funny

    A thumbs down in the southern hemisphere is the same as a thumbs up in the northern hemisphere, as long as you name the file bruce.pdf. It saves confusion.

  2. Re:A subset of PDF files? by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Given the number of times government officials around the world have failed to understand the difference between removing text in a PDF and replacing it with black and just covering the text over with black, they'd probably get it wrong about half the time even with best intentions.

  3. Plain text? by inflex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Other than plain text, are there really many other alternatives which don't endure levels of difficulty. Only other options I can see out there at the moment are ePub, simplified HTML or RTF - but of course then they all fall short of the possibly desired 'fancy formatting'.

    As someone will likely also mention, why not just mandate that the PDF contents are actually text, as opposed to images (which is annoying to anyone!).

  4. Throwing out the baby with the bath water by arivanov · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That is the case with badly done PDFs where pages are rendered as images. PDFs done via the office plugin or Openoffice or any other proper authoring package at the default settings have the text present and the fonts embedded instead so should work fin as far as accessibility.

    How about enforcing some computer literacy on document publishers instead?

    --
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    1. Re:Throwing out the baby with the bath water by robbak · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not necessarily. PDF does not preserve text flow. It breaks up paragraphs into lines (or less if kerning has been altered), and places them accurately on the page. If you have a multi-column layout, then a pdf-to-text algorithm (first step in screen reading) is likely to put column-2-line-1 between column-1-lines-{1 and 2}. Best of luck sorting that out.

      --
      Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    2. Re:Throwing out the baby with the bath water by peppepz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not necessarily. PDF does not preserve text flow. It breaks up paragraphs into lines (or less if kerning has been altered), and places them accurately on the page.

      This is not true. PDF is capable of preserving text flow if the document contains such information. See this as an example: if you open it in acrobat reader and move the text cursor using the down arrow, you'll see it travel correctly among columns and paragraphs.
      No page description format will help if the page has been generated in a broken way: for instance, try extracting text from the tables of an html page generated by javascript.

      If you have a multi-column layout, then a pdf-to-text algorithm (first step in screen reading) is likely to put column-2-line-1 between column-1-lines-{1 and 2}. Best of luck sorting that out.

      In this case it is the pdf-to-text algorithm to be broken, and should be fixed.

    3. Re:Throwing out the baby with the bath water by Taxman415a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is not true. PDF is capable of preserving text flow if the document contains such information.

      Yes, this can be done, but it is almost universally not done. Of all the pdfs out there, almost all of them that have anything but single column text flow incorrectly. The answer is of course to include this information every time, but I don't see how you can mandate that if the standard doesn't include it and most or all current software creates pdfs that don't have it.

      If you have a multi-column layout, then a pdf-to-text algorithm (first step in screen reading) is likely to put column-2-line-1 between column-1-lines-{1 and 2}. Best of luck sorting that out.

      In this case it is the pdf-to-text algorithm to be broken, and should be fixed.

      I'm not sure that you can always figure out the text flow correctly a posteriori. Once the correct text flow information hasn't been encoded in the document, it's a bit of a crap shoot in some cases to figure out what was intended. Where should that floating box go? Many pdfs have text flow broken up so badly that they appear to read randomly. A few bits from one sentence, then a few words or parts from the middle of another paragraph. Literally the best option for some pdfs is to export them as images and import those to an ocr program.

  5. Re:A subset of PDF files? by c0lo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Yes, but what easier way for a bureaucrat than: printing the document, inserting into a scanner (err.. document center) and ... voila, job done.

    Learn how to operate another program? Spend from the budget for another set of licenses? (the horror)... start to use Open Office or the like?

    --
    Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  6. Re:A subset of PDF files? by wiredlogic · · Score: 4, Informative

    ISO already has created the standardized PDF/X subsets used widely in the publishing industry. They lack support for extra features like scripting and other extensions.

    The main problem with PDF for document archives is that it is a presentation format and doesn't adequately preserve text structure since everything is broken down into lines of text or individually placed glyphs. Analysis of a page layout can only bring back so much. There are better ways to store data that offer more versatility.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  7. What about Flash? Check out this site: by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Look at this page. It's for a local police department in a city that has lots of blind people because of the presence of the California School for the Blind. This is the first page that Google lists for the site. I can't imagine that a screen reader can make anything of the front page and there are no navigation buttons.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:What about Flash? Check out this site: by noidentity · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nonsense! When I visit that site, I see a HUGE button and some normal, selectable text ("Click here to get the plug-in"). A screenreader would do fine with that. Oh, wait...

  8. What format by bigtreeman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Missing from the statement is what the preferred format is.

    I would expect a Microsoft format from our illustrious leaders.

    Reads like a fairly dumb statement which is what I always
    expect from our government.

    Sounds like a lead up to them locking themselves (us) into
    using a proprietary, expensive, unusable system.

    Who , me , negative ,
    yep

    --
    Go well
    1. Re:What format by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would expect a Microsoft format from our illustrious leaders.

      Bingo. Anyone who doesn't see Microsoft's hand in this is hopelessly naive.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  9. Re:So can any format by nedlohs · · Score: 3, Informative

    No it doesn't sound like a bozo official since that style of pdf was specifically excluded from the user study they ran.

    You could of course skim the report and know that, but I guess that would mean you couldn't launch into meaningless rants.

    Of ocurse if you did that you'd know the report is available in PDF format which I guess would just launch you on a different meaningless rant.

  10. Re:A subset of PDF files? by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

    XML to the rescue!

    --
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  11. So the problem is fancy formatting. by robbak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And the rest of us say "Get rid of it". We do not access government documents to be blown away by their totally rad page style. We access them for information, and extracting the information from the glumph that encases it is sometimes hard for the best of us.

    html all the way. Any formatting you cannot fit in a simple stylsheet can get left out.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    1. Re:So the problem is fancy formatting. by StuartHankins · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most contracts and many forms require rendering with specific type sizes, specific layouts etc. That isn't currently possible with CSS / HTML, which is why PDF is such an important format to many industries where legal compliance with a national agency, standards body, regulated industry body, or governmental standard is necessary.

  12. Re:Really? by robbak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Also consider pdfs with complex page layouts. Deciphering the text flow from them is often hard for eyeballs, let alone computers.
    2 columns is enough to throw out many screen readers.

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
  13. Re:So can any format by Barny · · Score: 3, Informative

    You do know that in Australia it is law that a company make their website accessible for vision impaired if at all possible.

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    ...
    /me sighs
  14. WTF? by zmollusc · · Score: 3, Funny

    What does it matter that they can't read the text? PDFs aren't about content, they are about preserving the layout. At least that is what it seems like to me when I am foolish enough to try and read PDFs on a device with a different number of pixels than the person who made the PDF file.
    If the content matters at all, someone should invent a technology that allows text to be tagged somehow with indicators of the MEANING of that portion of text, like 'this is a title', and let the display device render the text according to how the reader can best view it. It sounds crazy, and it may take a few decades to do, but think of the benefits.

    --
    They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
  15. Re:Really? by Barny · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes it is, these shouldn't be features, it should be simple for a text-speech program to follow without having some tacked on standard that you now have to expect everyone to follow.

    The layout should compliment the data, not vice versa. If you have to think for one second "will my document be able to be accessed by vision impaired" then that is one second more than it should be, if you type three columns of text in a continuous flow, it should be able to read it back as such without having to go over it later and mark it up.

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    ...
    /me sighs
  16. Re:A subset of PDF files? by Kizor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I expect they could require that all they wanted, and it still wouldn't happen.

    If my usability manuals are to be believed, people have neglected the safeties of nuclear reactors because those things are a chore and do nothing anyway. If you don't want your users to do something, then you design your system so that they never get the option.

  17. Re:A subset of PDF files? by TCDown · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't understand the comparrison between websites and PDF's? Graphical text banners, or images that contain text, are perfectly acceptable under WCAG, as long as alt text or long descriptions are used correctly. And if a PDF is correctly created then text can easily be read by a screen reader.

  18. Poorly created PDF files by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So basically they are saying that *because* it is possible to produce a shoddy PDF file which is basically an image dump, that this is reason enough not to use the format?
    By this same reckoning, you could produce a really shoddy HTML page which also consists of images and no text... Virtually any format could be misused in this way.

    So what's the alternative? That we all revert back to ASCII text since its incapable of holding graphics?

    Personally i hate seeing poorly designed websites or pdf files as i described here, where the text is actually an embedded image (or worse - a flash file) and there is no clickable index etc.
    We should probably start naming and shaming pdf creation software, and those who use (or misuse) such tools.

    --
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  19. Re:A subset of PDF files? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, that would be analogous to allowing PDF, but requiring the text portions actually be text.

    And that would actually be reasonable.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  20. Re:Aussies IT Directors Retarded by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you talking about modifying existing pdf files, or simply creating new ones?

    OpenOffice/LibreOffice has a PDF Import extension which does a pretty good job of editing, i also found via a very quick google search a pdfedit program on sourceforge - http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfedit/

    As for creating pdf files, there are countless programs for doing that, openoffice, pdflatex, virtually anything that can print to postscript combined with ps2pdf etc etc etc.

    Sure, HTML is preferable to PDF for web content, but PDF is a pretty good format when used appropriately.

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  21. Re:A subset of PDF files? by tixxit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Working as a web developer for the Canadian gov't, we had some similar rules for content. Mainly, you always had to provide it in the most accessible form possible. This usually meant HTML > PDF > Office Document. However, it was always on a best effort/convenience basis. So, if you posted PowerPoint slides, you also had to post the PDF versions, since making a PDF version was dead simple. However, we certainly weren't required to go all out and make a usable HTML version as well.

    We also offered many things (eg. transcription or translation) on an "as requested" basis, since technically we were suppose to offer them, but realistically we didn't have the budget to do it for everything. This worked well.

    I think just flat out banning PDFs is stupid. Require accessibility (best-effort), but allow for wiggle room. Yeah, it would be great if all PDFs had real text in them, but if the choice for some gov't agency is to either post an inaccessible version of the document or post nothing at all (because the time/cost required to make it accessible is too high), then they should be able to post the inaccessible version.

  22. Re:Aussies IT Directors Retarded by VolciMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most times I follow a link and discover the content is PDF, I give it a pass. If you want to publish on the web, use HTML.

    And if you *truly* want to ensure it *always* looks the same *everywhere*, you use PDF

  23. Re:A subset of PDF files? by bjourne · · Score: 3, Informative

    To make the documents accessible, they will need to create them in such a way that the screen reader can read the text for the blind person. Believe it or not, extracting the text contents from a pdf file is actually a very non-trivial problem. Mostly the problems are caused by pdf authoring tools that render each glyph separately. The text extractor then has no idea about which characters belong to each line and has to guess based on the baseline of the character. Another problem is non-ascii characters and how the authoring tool decides to render them. The venerable free software tool pdflatex uses composite characters (basically it renders multiple glyps on top of each other) which makes it impossible to accurately extract the text.

    So no, it is not about stupidity or bad Microsoft softare. PDF just is unsuitable for accessable documents.