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NASA Finds New Life (This Afternoon)
While the official 2pm conference should have more answers, most of the internet has decided that NASA has discovered a completely new life form based on arsenic instead of the more traditional organic materials. We'll know more in a few hours.
If you were asked to speculate about the form extra-terrestrial life on Mars might take, which geomicrobial phenomenon might you select as a model system, assuming that life on Mars would be 'primitive'? Give your reasons.
At the end of my senior year at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in 1968, I took Professor Ehrlich’s final for his Geomicrobiology course. The above question beckoned to me like the Sirens to Odysseus, for if I answered, it would take so much time and thought that I would never get around to the exam’s other essay questions and consequently, would be "shipwrecked" by flunking the course. So, I passed it up.With this 41-year perspective in mind, this manuscript is now submitted to Professor Ehrlich for (belated) "extra-credit." R.S. Oremland
This has been an interesting topic in sci-fi, I recall an X-Files that revolved around silicon based life.
I certainly hope that we get more details than this teaser (all other news articles seem to point back to Gizmodo). From the sound of this leak I can't tell if the DNA itself is foreign or if it's made of the same Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine with similar hydrogen bonds or if the DNA is similar but different in functionality or if it doesn't create proteins and RNA the same way or if phosphorus component is just switched with arsenic (two very similar elements prebiotic chemically) or if the whole bacteria is made of arsenic. At what point in the chain of DNA to organism does this thing seriously differ? The Gizmodo article is painfully weak on detail.
My work here is dung.
Stop arguing that life on earth is a special, special snowflake, created by a God who looks just like us? If a deity exists, clearly they are just as likely to be made of arsenic.
No... Don't you understand?
This is bigger than NASA's ammouncement...
THE INTERNET AGREED ON SOMETHING!
Why not wait until 2pm before posting the article then ?
Anyone can comment on facts, but conjecture is more fun.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
::facepalm::
If what's being reported is accurate, they've discovered a life form whose DNA was previously thought to be completely, unequivocally, no-exceptions impossible. Not just "we haven't found it", but impossible.
HOW IS THAT NOT AWESOME???
Living With a Nerd
NASA has discovered a completely new life form that doesn't share the biological building blocks of anything currently living in planet Earth.
This makes it seem as if extraterrestrial life was found. But this was found in Mono Lake, California? So is it Life, as in living? ore life as in "was" living? I'll be tuning in at the conference.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_(movie)
Is carbon a deadly posion for an arsenic-based life form?
Such an arsenic-"based" life form would still be made up mostly of carbon, the arsenic would replace phosphor instead. So, carbon would be most likely harmless to them while phosphor might indeed be toxic, in a reversal of the toxicity mechanism of arsenic, which works, among other mechanisms, by replacing the phosphate groups in adenosine triphosphate.
The really interesting question is how an arsenic-based bacterium would avoid the effect of arsenic binding to sulfhydryl groups in proteins.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Combined from two other posts I made:
If what's being reported is accurate, they've discovered a life form whose DNA was previously thought to be completely, unequivocally, no-exceptions impossible. Not just "we haven't found it", but impossible.
The point is that it means that life could exist in ways we haven't even conceived of yet. It's not the finding itself that's important, but rather the implications of having hard confirmed evidence that what we have long thought was wrong.
Living With a Nerd
Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still fit. ;-)
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
I, for one, welcome are new arsenic-based overlords.
It's life, Jim, but not as we know it.
has a common ancestor with us, or if it emerged entirely separately. If it did emerge separately from the 'spark' which started our family off, then it makes it incredibly more likely that the universe is absolutely teeming with life.
If we find any signs of common ancestory, however far back they are, it would suggest that life only 'began' on this life once, and leaves open the possibility that we are on our own.
The really interesting question is how an arsenic-based bacterium would avoid the effect of arsenic binding to sulfhydryl groups in proteins.
Which brings up the question of just how different this life is. Did evolution just find a neat little way to avoid the problems with Arsenic or is the biochemistry substantially different at every level? Basically, is this just a new branch off the tree of life, or is it a completely new sapling the next field over?
There's nothing to see here if it can be shown that there is a sequence of changes that can go directly from point A to point B (A being "life" -- without a firm definition, but "life" using phosphorus, and B being identical "life" using arsenic instead) where every step of the path between forms a viable chemistry that continues to be "life".
If you can't do that, then there's pretty significant reason to think that along with the handful of times life likely arose on Earth with a chemistry that *can* be linked that way to now, it arose a time using a completely different chemistry.
That latter would mean two VERY important things -- the conditions that life could arise in is a lot broader than we believe AND, if its got similar genetics and use of amino acids, that the opportunistic use of amino acids (which are known to be extremely common in space) isn't a rare thing.
This are staggering, dicipline-changing insights unless someone can show a path from A-B.
This still doesn't explain the information embargo...
It does if this is being published in a respectable, peer-reviewed, scientific journal concurrent with the announcement. Scientific journals will generally provide advance copies of 'interesting' upcoming publications to members of the media, on condition that the news be embargoed until a particular time -- generally around the time that the full publication becomes accessible to the journal's readers. Journalists get advance copies so that they can start writing their articles early, so they can get quotes from relevant experts, and so that there is at least a faint hope that their coverage will be well-researched, thorough, and accurate, and bear at least a passing resemblance to the actual science being presented.
That's the right way to do a scientific announcement, by the way. (The wrong way is exemplified the Pons and Fleischmann's 'science by press conference' cold-fusion debacle, where you make the public announcement before your scientific peers have a chance to review your work.
~Idarubicin
One of the core goals of NASA is to discover more about the universe in which we live and how it impacts us. Obviously the search for extraterrestrial life is part of that mission, but if we assume all life (and the planets harbouring them) are identical to our systems then we're going to ignore avenues that might be evident or even more prevalent.
What was a patent clerk doing contemplating the nature of space/time?
Taking the speculation in the article at face value, and thus assuming that NASA has found an arsenic-based lifeform in a shadow biosphere on Earth, here's why it's important:
All life on Earth that we know of is related. It all uses the same basic DNA/RNA mechanisms (including the same four base pairs), uses the same specific molecules that prominently feature carbon as the basic assembly blocks of the cell, etc. To use the ever-popular car analogy, cars can look quite different from each other, but they're all still essentially made out of the same things: bolts, gears, copper wiring, etc.
Well this other kind of life is completely different. It's so different that we know it cannot possibly be related to all of the other Earth life that we've known about thus far, as there is nothing in common. That means abiogenesis (the spontaneous generation of life from precursor non-living materials) happened at least TWICE on just this one planet.
So while this isn't extra-terrestrial life, it does have all sorts of potential ramifications on the potential existence of extra-terrestrial life. Before today, it was possible to speculate that one solution to Drake's Equation was simply that spontaneous generation of life was so rare that it only happened once, ever. But if we now found that it's happened multiple times just on this one planet ... then hell, it could be happening everywhere, all the time.
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
Perhaps its proteins use selenocysteines? Or it produces lots of de-arsenating enzymes, like bacteria that live in very hot temperatures (100 deg, say) produce more HSPs.
they do if they wanna create hype to get the public interested in supporting a bigger budget
That's hard to believe. If a life form based on arsenic did evolve it would have big bulging eyes and its skin would be gray.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
No, it would not. What an incredibly stupid comment to make.
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
Not really.
My religious view doesn't even need to be adjusted to cope with this.
Granted, I'm not saying that Jesus is the son of God, or that Muhammed was a prophet, or that the jews were chosen by God.
I just consider the idea of the universe popping into existance utterly absurd. Just like you consider it absurd that something beyond our understanding may exist, despite the fact that actual scientists are quite well aware that several aspects of the universe are beyond our current understanding.
Religious people might claim a lot of funky shit, but the idea that life should be carbon-based... doesn't that come from science?
Asenic-based lifeforms doesn't shake my faith the slightest.
Man walks up to podium: *tap* *tap* *tap* "Is this thing on"
Man: "We all have 2 hours to live."
Man walks off stage.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Thats one possibility, but there is a second possibility which is what I think NASA would be so excited about if true. What if it's not a mutation in Bacteria which used Phosphorus, but a completely seperate lineage of life, with no common ancestor.
If that were true, it doesn't mean it has to be Extraterrestial, it could be direct evidence that life on Earth started at least twice, under different conditions in different places and times. It would have huge implications in terms of how likely life is to start else where in the Solar System/Galaxy/Universe if the environmental conditions are right.
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
A quick Google for "arsenic bacteria" shows that these bacteria from lake Mono were already known to be special since they have an arsenic-based metabolism, so presumably they're already being studied by plenty of scientists.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14537-arseniceating-bacteria-rewrite-evolutionary-history.html
Of course having "DNA" (I guess it needs a new name since it's a new compond) based on arsenic raises the interest level a lot, assuming its true!
Prevents us from having an article to not read.
So why don't you find the idea of a god popping into existence utterly absurd?
look at this gems:
Are Aliens Among Us? Sort of, NASA Says
NASA Finds Alien DNA in Californian Lake
NASA discovery to add new 'element' to life
Slashdot ya no es que lo era!
quoting:
If the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law;
From the New York Times Summary:
Scientists said Thursday that they had trained a bacterium to eat and grow on a diet of arsenic, in place of phosphorus
It seems that this organisms was adapted in the lab to substitute Arsenic for Phosphorous, and is not a naturally Arsenic-based lifeform -- and that it will still preferrentially use phosphorous when allowed any.
And more importantly, it would mean end of religions, unless we want to fool ourselves now on new, grandiose scale.
It would not end it in the least. Religion is about a person's soul, not their body. "The spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing."
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I am watching the conference right now, and she just mentioned that they did an elementary analysis of the cells and found not enough phosphorus per cell to have a working biochemistry. So this strongly points to it being more than just impurities, but to a real functional substitution of As for P. Their growth medium was apparently phosphorus-free and the cultures still grew on for quite a while, which again points to a functional substitution.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
NASA-Funded Research Discovers Life Built With Toxic Chemical
Reuters:
It is bigger than that. Firstly, arsenic is more reactive and as such the backbone of the DNA would be very unstable. That's a huge problem - how did this organism solve it? That could be a second Nobel prize right there.
Also, although adenosine will bind arsenate to make an arsenic based AMP analog (AMA?), it is the final phosphate from ATP that gets bound in the backbone. You have to have lots of machinery altered to get ATP built with arsenate on the terminus and transport that arsenate enzymaticly into the growing DNA chain. It's been about 25 years since I did biochemistry, but there's about a hundred "holy crap" things about this discovery. Each of those little pieces of the discovery will get you the cover of Science or Nature if you unlock it. Really, this is a super-cool finding. Short of putting ET on the dais I don't know what would be more shocking.