Slashdot Mirror


Scientists Decipher 3-Billion-Year-Old Genomic Fossils

hnkstrprnkstr writes "MIT scientists have created a sort of genomic fossil (abstract) that shows the collective genome of all life underwent an enormous expansion about 3 billion years ago, which they're calling the Archean Expansion. Many of the new genes appearing in the Archean Expansion are oxygen related, and could be the first biological evidence of the Great Oxidation Event, the period in Earth's history when oxygen became so plentiful that many anaerobic life forms may have become extinct."

43 of 217 comments (clear)

  1. At last! by lpaul55 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I can breathe!

    --
    ... now back to the bit mines.
  2. For the "but it's just a computer model!" trolls by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go here. Follow, read, and understand the links on the first, say, three or four pages of search results. Then, maybe, you'll know enough to have a meaningful opinion on the subject.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  3. Wait, what? by WD · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

    1. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      really, creationism is the 'elephant in the room' whenever you start talking about the fossil record

      what I find interesting about the article is the layering effect of life. how the anerobic life got pushed out by the oxygen breathers and relegated to living in the cracks. good for us, but an extinction event for them. there have been many big extinctions, and each allowed some hardier form of live to make it to the next expansion. we are in a current extinction event (holocene), and have started to worry about an asteroid or some such wiping us out.

      even that worry over our own 'extinction' bumps up against any number of religious beliefs, even if they seem to have an unrealistic timescale of tens of years, when any historical events have been separated by millions of years

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    2. Re:Wait, what? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm confused. So they were on the Ark or what?

      Why do you think they call them 'Archean'?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:Wait, what? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      Very, very slowly.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 3, Interesting

      what I find interesting about the article is the layering effect of life. how the anerobic life got pushed out by the oxygen breathers and relegated to living in the cracks. good for us, but an extinction event for them. there have been many big extinctions, and each allowed some hardier form of live to make it to the next expansion. we are in a current extinction event (holocene), and have started to worry about an asteroid or some such wiping us out.

      even that worry over our own 'extinction' bumps up against any number of religious beliefs, even if they seem to have an unrealistic timescale of tens of years, when any historical events have been separated by millions of years.

      I'm a programmer but just happen to be reading Nick Lane's books on this. If I get something wrong please biologists jump in and correct me. :)

      I only read a page or two a day (first "Oxygen", and now "Power, Sex, Suicide" - and yes, that's all based on oxygen). But the revelation I had yesterday was that anaerobic bacteria essentially drown in oxygen, just as we would suffocate with too little oxygen, which by the way is not that much below the historic percentage of atmosphere for last several hundred million years of 21%. Dropping below about 15% of atmosphere would kill all oxygen breathing life.

      So anaerobic life which ruled the world didn't get pushed out by oxygen breathing life, it got pushed "out", or down into stagnant places rather, by oxygen, which was created by photosynthesis. Almost all the oxygen over .1% of the atmosphere was created by photosynthesis in plant life.

      And what became of that anaerobic life in the sea with .1% oxygen? It exists to this day in our cells, which are in the same salt water of the sea in our body and exposed to .1% oxygen delivered by hameoglobin in the blood. It also exists in our intestines among other places with little oxygen, such as bottoms of swamps.

      The kicker? People talk of evolution and they have no idea. All current life was set in place nearly three billion years ago. Every complex thing you ever read about in the human body cells is in every cell of every life form for almost three billion years.

      DNA, RNA, mitochondria, conversion of glucose to storage of energy in ATP molecules using an extremely complex 12 step process, manufacture of the same proteins with ribosomes, fermentation to create energy without even that .1% of atmosphere oxygen when necessary (such as our muscles which fermentation kicks in when needed and creates a byproduct lactic acid which eventually causes cramps), respiration using haemin which is haemoglobin in blood and clorophyll in plants, everything was set almost three billion years ago.

      Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized.

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      I am not religious and do not consider religious arguments against evolution as anything but pedantic handwaving, but what we call evolution is really rather trivial specialization implemented by the ancient common embryo genes.

      I could go on and I'm probably leaving out even more stuff that took my breath away when I read it but people have no idea the ancient universality of all life forms from the same unbelievably complex cell from three billion years ago.

        rd

    5. Re:Wait, what? by globaljustin · · Score: 2

      so, gimmee something here, how do you discuss geologic events when people seem so driven to think in terms of their own lifespans?

      I can help. I am the product of 18 years of Christian fundamentalist education, from Kinder through undergrad.

      Focus on the processes and what happened and not on how you got there...say "over time" and just be as general as possible. Really it's sad that it's come to this, but just say "millions/billions of years ago" as little as possible.

      The best you can realistically expect from a TRUE creationist is "how do they know that?" and "how does X geological or celestial event affect Y?" and that's OK. It's a *conversation* instead of an argument. I've learned this is 'victory' when dealing with close-minded, under educated people.

      --
      Thank you Dave Raggett
    6. Re:Wait, what? by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Nothing needs to drive it - they just ignore or explain away the evidence. Humans are inherently irrational, and we're very slow to change our minds about even mundane matters, let alone something which has been drilled into us since childhood and which heavily influences how we interact with those around us. The big surprise isn't that so many people continue to believe in nonsensical superstitious claims - it's that so many have managed to find their way out of it.

    7. Re:Wait, what? by Lloyd_Bryant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing has evolved, it has only specialized.

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      Why would you expect the "gaining of new and more complex capabilities"? Evolution is not oriented towards perfection. It's oriented towards "good enough". So it's quite possible that all those 3 billion year old mechanisms have been "good enough" to meet all conditions encountered since then, in which case unless the "new and more complex capability" provided a substantial survival advantage, it won't have become commonplace. And since "more complex" generally means "more expensive in terms of energy consumption", any mutations in that direction could quite likely have been a survival *disadvantage*.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I had one once. It sucked.
    8. Re:Wait, what? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The bigger question is how this complex machinery of life developed in the first billion years of Earth amidst massive meteor impacts. People can call it what they want, but knowing that all life that has ever existed has existed essentially unchanged from three billion years ago defies explanation of "evolving" in first one to two billion years to the amazing complexity of how cells work and then staying pat for almost three billion years and only losing capabilities, not gaining new and more complex capabilities as one assumes from casual science study and reading.

      a) How long should we have expected that first billion years of evolution to take?

      b) You should rephrase "not gaining new and more complex capabilities" to say "at the cellular level". At higher levels, progress has been phenomenal. (How much smarter are you than a single-cell organism?)

      The origin of cellular machinery is indeed impressive, but unfortunately "I can't believe it could happen by natural causes in a billion years" tells us a little about the speaker's beliefs, and nothing at all about what actually happened.

      As to why not much new has been added to that machinery since, maybe we have more basis for speculation. Competition from all-new "designs" is probably impossible, because the necessary building blocks would probably be oxidized, or digested by current organisms, before it could bootstrap itself into a new cell type. For variants on what we have, evolution is not a reversible process, so we can't expect cells to undo part of their history and try something else, any more than birds would evolve back into dinosaurs and go then forward again down a different path.

      So we're probably stuck with consideration of add-ons to the current machinery. But there's no guarantee that something nifty would happen in that regard within any bounded period of time. Evolution doesn't provide organisms with things just because they are needed or would be useful. Possibly cellular evolution has reached a "local maximum" on the fitness landscape, from which there is no easy jump to something better.

      And who knows... some of the past jumps may not have been particularly easy either, but merely fortuitous one-time events.

      And evolution of macroscopic organisms has certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of the existing cellular machinery. Maybe it's good enough?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    9. Re:Wait, what? by whereiswaldo · · Score: 2

      so, what drives the desire to hold a belief in front of so much evidence to the contrary?

      Well, I go to church regularly and I'll readily admit I'm not completely convinced of all of this stuff being true. However, the people at my baptist church really do care about others and I do, too. They've really touched my heart. I know every church is different and some (probably many, especially catholic) really turn me off with the condescending, "you're a sinner since birth" brain washing) so YMMV.

      If you find a good church like I did and put your heart into it, suspending your scepticism (it's not easy), you just may feel the power of faith. It's an amazing feeling, a power I can't deny washing over me. Maybe you guys can think of a scientific name for it. But for now I am content in attending church, "rebooting" my soul every week and casting off doubts, hatred, etc... The people at my church really believe what they are preaching. They don't beg people for money... they pray about it. They pray about everything they need as a ministry. They pray for others in need. It's really refreshing.

      If I am wrong about these beliefs, then I will one day die and go into the soil and nothing more will happen. If I am right, I will have eternal life in heaven. And while I am living, my life is enriched by being with people who care about one another - about me - and put their 100% out there every time I see them. That's more than I can say for a hell of a lot of people. So as you can see, I have nothing to lose by believing.

      As far as evolution goes, I think a God that doesn't take into account changing environmental conditions isn't a very smart God. So evolution and creationism can coexist, at least in my view. I mean, think about it, everything had to originate from something, right? God, or whatever you want to visualize, has to ultimately create all this, in some dimension/multiverse/etc... Who created time? Imagining there's some power higher than us just seems obvious.

    10. Re:Wait, what? by Artifakt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except the original Hebrew word didn't mean a day, and was often used in other writings to mean an indeterminate period. If you're asking how you can trust a poor translation job, you may be on to something, but the original text didn't use the English word 'day' at all, let alone redefine it.
      Alternately, some people claim the account in Genesis is metaphorical. Now I'm not arguing that it definitely is or isn't, but your argument seems to be that if it is metaphorical, it's untrustworthy in some absolute sense. I.e. "Carl Sagan used a metaphor of the Milky Way as the Backbone of Night in Cosmos, so how can we trust anything else in Cosmos?" Or maybe you're going as far as "The discoverer of the Benzine ring used a metaphor of a snake devouring its tail to describe it, so how can we trust anything in organic chemistry?".

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    11. Re:Wait, what? by Gogogoch · · Score: 5, Informative

      "All current life was set in place nearly three billion years ago". Absolutely not - your view of the history of biology is very warped. Study more biology itself to realize what 'current life' actually looks like. Some important points:

      1.7~2 Billion years ago: probable endosymbiosis of prokaryote into eurkaryotic cells, forming mitochonria. Much later than the 3 billion years you suggest, and an absolutely vital stage in the evolution of multicellular life. In fact, it is suggested that the emergence of mitrochondria is why we are here to day - without these powerhouses single-celled life did not have enough available energy to form multi-cellular organisms.

      1~1.3 Billions years ago: complex multi-cellular life: While the diversity, resilience, and ubiquity of single-celled life is amazing, I find complex multi-celled life much more astonishing. That colonies of cells can cooperate, specialise and form complex life is a wonderful achievement of evolution. Of course, it took a mind-boggling amount of time. Still, a significant step the results of which are quite distinct from life of 3 billions years ago. So your assertion is again inadequate.

      ~600 million years: emergence of the first neuron.

      ~580 million years: nerves and muscles, working together; first eyes

      ~550 million years: brains

      And so the list goes on. Perhaps a significant development every 10-20 million years.

      ~540 million years: hearts and circulatory systems

      There is a giant change from single-celled life to cats, dogs, and humans. What you should be saying is that, as a programmer, you are amazed that all life on Earth has the same genetic code - that the 3 base-pair codon is almost universal in every cell and organism on the plant. I suppose I do like you perspective though, when you look at a yeast cell, an oak tree, and a human and realise they are all related, all cousins, all derived from an evolutionary chain billions of years in the making.

    12. Re:Wait, what? by Graff · · Score: 5, Informative

      I only read a page or two a day (first "Oxygen", and now "Power, Sex, Suicide" - and yes, that's all based on oxygen). But the revelation I had yesterday was that anaerobic bacteria essentially drown in oxygen, just as we would suffocate with too little oxygen

      They don't "drown" in oxygen. Oxygen is a highly reactive substance, cut an apple and it browns fairly rapidly, expose iron to air and it will rust, those chemical hand warmers take oxygen from the air in order to produce heat. Some organisms, called obligate anaerobes, can't tolerate an environment with high oxygen content because it poisons them by destroying enzymes and interfering with key biological pathways in those organisms.

      When organisms came about that produced large amounts of oxygen (a byproduct of photosynthesis, as well as other reducing processes) they basically polluted the environment by producing so much oxygen. This oxygen "pollution" poisoned most of the organisms of the time until some evolved ways to break down and even use the oxygen. Once this happened there was an explosion of oxygen-using organisms. It turns out that since oxygen is so reactive it makes a great agent to "burn" (oxidize) other materials and produce energy.

      However, there are many anaerobes that can survive in an oxygen environment - some can even use a little of the oxygen when it's available. There's no hard and fast cutoff of how much oxygen is too much or too little. As levels rise there will be more wildfires and the less oxygen-tolerant organisms will struggle, as levels fall the more oxygen-reliant organisms will have problems. A partial pressure for oxygen of 0.15 kPa (15% at STP - standard temperature & pressure) will certainly cause a lot of problems for many oxygen-reliant organisms.

    13. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 2

      1.7~2 Billion years ago: probable endosymbiosis of prokaryote into eurkaryotic cells, forming mitochonria.

      actually mitochondria enabled the formation of eukarytes.

    14. Re:Wait, what? by Marcx77 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The point is that this is extremely complex biochemical machinery that is mind boggling to even imagine how this somehow came together.

      I am more inclined to think it came from space than anything.

      How would that make it less mind-boggling? It just relocates the problem. Does it somehow make more sense to think that life had a few billion more years to evolve on some other planet than just 1.5 billion years here on earth? I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm genuinely curious as to how you'd think "space" is a better explanation...

    15. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      Engineered???

      whoa buddy, it is a long way from recognizing that there are some significant developments in the chemistry of life (over the course of hundreds of millions of years) and jumping to the conclusion that there must have been some 'engineered' step that created an extremely complex reaction all at once.

      do you like science fiction? I do most of the time, however the stories that really piss me off and make me want to rip up a few books, are they ones with 'shaggy dog' endings.

      you know, where everything is tossed in the air and the author pulls together some simple solution that solves everybody's problems, answers all questions and gives the author an easy way out of whatever mess the story line had become.

      to me it seemed like the author was being lazy and just bailed out on finishing the story that I had been stupid enough to read. all this talk of life from space and engineering just stinks to me of another shaggy dog ending put together by people that are just too damn lazy to really figure something out and who just want to stick their mark on it before they go to fuck up some other complex field of study

      you say you're a programmer... how do you feel when you are using some software that is unstable, and the vendor just tells you to allocate more memory and reboot the machine on a regular basis? do you feel like they are really doing their job, or just glossing over the hard stuff with a simple solution? well, that's how I feel about intelligent design, life from space etc... pure mental laziness

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    16. Re:Wait, what? by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      honestly, when I read 'anaerobic' I am thinking less about modern anaerobic life forms that are involved in fermentation (some of which can even survive in an oxygen environment) and more about chemosynthetic organisms that live around volcanic vents and base their entire metabolism on hydrogen sulfide.

      these are the anaerobes of the Archean era, the ones that were killed off by the onrush of oxygen that the photosynthetic life forms brought with them and forced down into the oxygen-less cracks of the Earth

      If you can draw a direct line between chemosynthesis of hydrogen sulfide and the oxygen-based metabolism that keeps me upright, then I am all ears

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    17. Re:Wait, what? by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 2

      Can you give an example of such an unchanged gene? Some genes related to DNA handling proteins should be a good example. How unchanged they really are between archae, bacteria and a few lines of eukaroytes? Any references?

      Because I'm under the impression, that even though the genes work pretty much the same (as they have to, since chemical stucture of DNA and the information coding are the same), the DNA sequences have actually changed quite a bit, actually about as much as it could have changed without breaking the functionality.

      If you have an online link to something which discusses the difference of genes doing identical functions in archae, bacteria and eukaryotes, and includes actual quantative data about the difference, I'd be thrilled.

      I'll have to look tonight for one of the specific things in commonality I've been reading about but my initial response is that unchanged and changed as much as possible without breaking functionality is the same thing. By unchanged I mean unchanged functionality.

      I don't have any online links. What I've been reading are the Nick Lane books I mentioned in an earlier link. I have purchased a large library of technical books on the subject but was reading Nick Lane's first.

      Of course there has been drift in the DNA sequences of letter errors which as you know is used to approximate length of time between two samples. But far more than the proteins coded for is the very process itself of DNA, RNA, manufacture of proteins, etc. which are casually accepted that this complex cellular machinery, which is mind boggling in how sophisticated it is, was in place as far back as we can obtain fossils, nearly three billion years ago, and has remained unchanged to this day yet with evolution we talk about and see the changes that took place with everything constructed of the cells.

      That the cells are so sophisticated we still don't know much about how they work and so perfect they have made up all life in ever changing forms for over two billion years without changing themselves I find hard to believe can be accepted so casually. My original point was that very few people understand that this is what has happened. The universality of life based on the same cell workings from the beginning of time is just not something that we are exposed to.

        rd

  4. Re:Creationism by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Funny

    40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

    As little as possible.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  5. Plant and Animal... by RyanFenton · · Score: 2

    Two fires that found a way to indirectly fuel eachother over the millennia by way of oxygen. Somewhat romantic, actually. Actually makes more sense to give a flower in that context.

    Ryan Fenton

  6. The Great Memory Leak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is what happens when you don't free() your genes after you're done with them.

  7. Re:Creationism by gman003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Simple. "God works in subtle, mysterious ways. Who is to say that He did not create the universe in such a way that the precise results He wished to occur would occur, like an intricate, universe-wide set of dominoes? Could not evolution be the means by which He created man?"

    If they continue to argue, hit them with a crowbar.

  8. Re:Creationism by ushering05401 · · Score: 2

    Wow. You just decoded the entire reason I don't run around killing people.

    What do you think would happen if people started thinking about this more? Maybe we would soon see a "Hey, we have been wrong before so we will think a little more next time" popular uprising.

    It will be chaos I tell you. People thinking thoughts.. talking to each other.. My god, I need my inhaler and HOMELAND SECURITY!!!

  9. Damned Stromatolites... by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

    with their cyanobacteria cronies!

    --
    Wherever You Go, There You Are
  10. Re:Creationism by kanto · · Score: 2

    Overwhelming majority of the early non-religious scientists were burned at the stake or at least didn't get the credit they deserved in their lifetime; I guess that's a theistic selection of sorts.

  11. Re:Creationism by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

    Or just skip step one. :P

  12. Re:Creationism by c0lo · · Score: 2

    40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

    "Awhh... forget about LHC... what do you think of Snooki?".
    Is this good enough?

    --
    Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
  13. Re:Creationism by Newtonian_p · · Score: 2

    This sort of ad-hoc rationalisation can be used to account for absolutely anything imaginable. For instance, arguing that God created the whole Universe 5 minutes ago with everything in it and all our memories in a way to make it undistinguishable from a 13.7 billion year old Universe would be another example of ad-hoc rationalisation that can account for anything which is intellectually equivalent to your suggestion.

    I know you don't necessarily believe in "domino theology", it is just something to use on creationists but in my experience there almost no chance that they'll change anything in their mind about the subject of evolution. For anything related to someone's religiously based beliefs it's hard to have any productive discussion.

    --

    There are 2 kinds of people in this world: Those who write in decimal and those who don't

  14. Re:Creationism by PPH · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

    Or claimed to be in order to escape the current Inquisition.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  15. Re:Creationism by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous argument. So what? Newton was religious. Richard Feynman isn't. Richard Dawkins isn't. Thomas Edison wasn't. Sigmund Freud wasn't. Stephen Hawking isn't. Peter Higgs isn't. James Watson isn't. These people aren't/weren't. So what? People make discoveries and come up with inventions. Some of those people believe in religion, some of them don't. Measuring relgion's impact on progress by naming famous religious scientists/inventors...down that path lies madness.

    On the other hand, many murderers, mass murderers even, are/were "highly religious" and of course, in the middle of those two extremes, there are many many many many many many many other people who have made no impact on society whatsoever, doomed to be excluded from the annals of history by their mediocrity who are (or were) "highly religious". You can't just hold up an example of a great scientist who was also religious and say:

    "Look! That proves it!!! Human progress is impossible without Religion!!"

    I think if you replaced Newton's headstone with a magnet and wrapped his coffin in wire, you'd produce a measurable current every time you did say that.

    The "overwhelming majority of human progress" is in the past, due to the fact that the present is still happening and we can't see into the future. Society is becoming more secular. Many countries still have blasphemy laws. Some countries will stone you to death if you criticise a man who's supposedly an emissary of a prophet of a god. How many people were hanged/stoned/shot to death because of their godlessness who might have come up with calculus, or the "law of gravity" or the bagless vacuum cleaner or any one of a number of Really Great Things? How many were excluded from schools/universities because of accidents of birth, or because of their religious beliefs (which is pretty much the same thing).

    How many scientists paid lip service to God and religion because it was an established social convention. How many scientists paid lip service to God because the church was giving them money? If you were studying at one of the earliest 12th-14th century(I think) church-run universities would you come out with a heretical theory that suggested that God might not exist? No. No you wouldn't.

  16. Re:Creationism by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    To grab a fucking clue. Only the severely delusional believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  17. Re:Creationism by Monchanger · · Score: 2, Informative

    The overwhelming majority of human progress has come from people who were or are highly religious.

    That's because it took us 5,000 years of civilization to grow past our need to attribute everything we didn't understand to a mysterious power. Today we actually have the cognitive fortitude to admit our ignorance and lack of imagination. Those evolved among us do anyway.

    Your "deeply-held belief", which is undoubtedly simply a circumstance of conceptive chance, rather than a profound understanding of theology and introspection, is not shared by a statistically significant number of modern scientists. So this silly claim you parroted (made up by far more intelligent religious hacks, good job crediting them by the way) proving religious belief has anything to do with scientific endeavor is plainly bullshit.

    But go right ahead. Continue to take the coward's way out and claim that some deity is responsible for your mental failures if that helps you look in the mirror. Just do us a favor and quit trying to rewritite history as well.

  18. Re:Creationism by dmuir · · Score: 2

    No, because Theistic-Evolution is self-refuting. If God said he created in 6 days, but actually took billions of years, then that would make him a liar. If he's lying about how he created, then there's a good chance he's not telling the truth about being God either (basically the inverse of John 3:12). It also ignores the premise for Evolution; a way to explain origins without God. Something is very wrong with Evolution if you have to invoke God to get it to work.

  19. Re:Creationism by c6gunner · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nice logic! Got another one for ya: The overwhelming majority of murders and rapes were committed by people who were or are highly religious. Guess that proves that theists are inherently immoral, eh?

  20. Re:For the "but it's just a computer model!" troll by pinkushun · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wow, the first result is very interesting, and mostly understandable, because the ideas read much like similar programming concepts. And it even contains a car analogy!

    The character ’existence of engine’ is compatible with the tree of Figure 2.1 (a) as the
    motor is invented once in the edge connecting the root and the common ancestor of car and
    motorcycle. The same character is not compatible with the tree in Figure 2.1 (b) where the
    engine is invented twice. The character ’number of wheels’ is compatible with both trees.

  21. Re:Creationism by h00manist · · Score: 2

    40% of US residents believe in creationism. What are you going to say to them, huh?

    1) Go ahead and believe what you want.
    2) Stay away from me.
    3) Stay away from my school.
    4) Stay away from my newspaper, website, street, neighborhood, job, and city.
    5) You are free to go set up your own of those. Don't invite me.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  22. But Newton wasn't, sorry by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2

    Newton was, for the time, a religious freethinker who as evasive about his views because otherwise he would have been thrown out of Cambridge. Theologians conclude that he was probably a unitarian, and my own thinking when I was studying Newton's beliefs is that Newton defined his idea of God to support his idea of how the Universe worked - Newton's God is basically a "framework God" which supports the idea of a rigid, unbending universal architecture that guarantees his laws of motion. It is at the opposite extreme from the Christian God, who is, in effect, an emotional interferer.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  23. Re:Let's get rid of that oxygen by h00manist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shut down the coal mines. Yes, coal, gas and oil have to go - basically carbon from underground that people burn. Limited resources, causing dispute, war, monopolies, smoke, soot, noise. Nuclear and hydroelectric works just fine, most of NYC trasportation runs on electric power. Millions of people get to work and back every day, fast with no traffic - on electric power. Get PRT and it'll be faster than any car-based system can ever be.

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  24. The Creationist's Galileo Moment by arthurpaliden · · Score: 2

    The Creationist's Galileo Moment : Genetics Proves Evolution

    When chicken embryos start to develop they have teeth buds and the beginnings of multi segmented tails. As they develop their DNA tells the developing embryo to absorb them. Much like human embryo's absorb embryonic gill slits. Now if you turn off the genes that control this absorption instruction you get chicken embryos that develop long multi segmented dinosaur tails and meat eating dinosaur teeth complete with the serrated inside edge. Other studies have also been successful in regressing feathers into scales.

    This is not hypothesis. This is not supposition. This is not interpretation. This cold hard, hold in your hands see with your own eyes type reproducible proof. It has already been done, in Canadian universities no less, and is documented and reproducible. One more thing. No DNA was ever added to the bird DNA. This was done using 100% pure chicken DNA.

    They have proved that bird DNA contains genes that create dinosaur characteristics. The only way this can happen is through the evolutionary process.

    So like when Galileo first pointed his telescope at the heavens and learned that Aristotle was wrong modern scientists have pointed their microscopes at developing bird embryos and learned that they are correct. Evolution is real.

    • http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1026340/Jurassic-Park-comes-true-How-scientists-bringing-dinosaurs-life-help-humble-chicken.html
    • http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/05/dinosaur-chicken.html
    • http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/12/60minutes/main5629962.shtml
    • http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-08/scientist-vows-backwards-engineer-dinosaur-chicken

    Now just to make things easier for Creationists, yes I realize that you prefer to get your education from YouTube U. as I know reading non religious articles is such a chore for you, here are the names and institutions that you can use as starting points for your research. However you must remember to get the best results from your Internet searches do not to include the terms 'Bible, Creationist, Intelligent DesignID,religion,God' in your queries.

    • Raul Cano, professor of microbiology at California Polytechnic State University
    • Jack Horner, professor of palaeontology at Montana State University
    • Hans Larsson, a paleontologist at McGill University in Canada
    • Matt Harris and John Fallon, developmental biologists at the University of Wisconsin
    • Dewey Kramer, at Texas A&M University
  25. Deciphered! by autophile · · Score: 2

    The introns have also been deciphered:

    AGTTACCATGGGA /* Support new standard RFC -3374, Oxygen as Fuel */ GGCTTCAAA....

    --
    Towards the Singularity.
  26. Re:Creationism by mcgrew · · Score: 2

    If God said he created in 6 days, but actually took billions of years

    What is a day? You do know that time isn't absolute; someone falling into a black hole will experience a day while everyone else experiences thousands, millions, or billions of years depending on how close he is to the singulariy, and how fast he's moving.

    It also ignores the premise for Evolution; a way to explain origins without God.

    Evolution doesn't explain life's origins at all. It explains how and why life has changed since it arose. We're still pretty clueless about how it actually started (although I did see an interesting theory in one of the science magazines). Also, the "way to explain origins without god" is false; if science finds proof of God (which I doubt will ever happen), science will fit God into its framework.

    As it is, there is no reason for science to either include or exclude God.