Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Should Dolphins Be Treated As Non-Human Persons?

Posted by Soulskill on from the as-long-as-cows-are-still-treated-as-delicious dept.

Hugh Pickens writes "Dolphins have long been recognized as among the most intelligent of animals, but now the Times reports that a series of behavioral studies suggest that dolphins, especially species such as the bottlenose, have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self, can think about the future and are so bright that they should be treated as 'non-human persons.' 'Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size,' says Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University. 'The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions.' For example, one study found that dolphins can recognize their image in a mirror as a reflection of themselves — a finding that indicates self-awareness similar to that seen in higher primates and elephants. Other studies have found that dolphins are capable of advanced cognitive abilities such as problem-solving, artificial language comprehension, and complex social behavior, indicating that dolphins are far more intellectually and emotionally sophisticated than previously thought. Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, claiming that the current relationship between humans and dolphins is, in effect, equivalent to the relationship between whites and black slaves two centuries ago."

38 of 785 comments (clear)

  1. Non-human intelligences by Omnifarious · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think we should have standards for how we treat them, but I think that comparing the situation to slavery is somewhat over-the-top. Though it's really hard to think of some objective way of deciding just what rights they should have.

    I think, maybe, we should just ask, if we can figure out how. Of course, then there's the morass of objectively identifying and interpreting communication. :-)

    --
    Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
    1. Re:Non-human intelligences by mcvos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you grant dolphins "personhood" (whatever that means), then you've got to do the same thing with chimps. And probably orang-utans. And then maybe whales and elephants too.

      My suggestion is that we grant them this personhood when they ask for it. When they're able to ask for it, then it's obvious they deserve it. Until then, there's a huge gap between what humans are capable of and what various smart animals are capable of.

    2. Re:Non-human intelligences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have an easy solution! When dolphins (and dolphins alone) can create tools and devices such that they are able to wage war for their freedom, it should be granted. Until then, they're screwed.

    3. Re:Non-human intelligences by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

      What can they do? All the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. Mankind, on the other hand, has achieved so much – the wheel, New York, wars and so on. Clearly, we are much more intelligent.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Non-human intelligences by Cruciform · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some human "persons" don't understand that they have that right until you explain it to them.
      Look at the caste systems.

    5. Re:Non-human intelligences by INeededALogin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When they're able to ask for it, then it's obvious they deserve it.

      This is awfully absurd. Maybe they are already asking to be let out of Seaworld and all the other cages we keep them in. Perhaps we aren't capable of understanding them? Does one simply ignore all signs of intelligence because we simply enjoy their tricks? Your suggestion in many ways is how slavery was justified by stating that the slaves were somehow an inferior animal.

    6. Re:Non-human intelligences by RsG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I should probably preface this by stating that I am thoroughly omnivorous, fine with testing on lab rats, can't stand PETA and generally hold that most people's preconceptions about animal rights have far more to do with "cute vs ugly" than they do with "right vs wrong".

      So it may sound strange that I'm all for dolphins being recognized as near-human level intelligent life, and accorded legal protection befitting said status. Actually I'd go as far as extending such status to most other cetaceans and all apes.

      What is the measure of a human being? I don't believe in souls, nor should religion be invoked in temporal debates. Human genetics are no more complex than any other mammal. Human anatomy, while distinct from other apes in a few areas, is mostly unremarkable from the neck down. We're animals ourselves, vertebrate, tetrapod, primate, ape, hominid. We like to imagine ourselves as special, as evidenced by the way we write our mythologies and philosophy, but that's ego talking, not evidence.

      All that distinguishes us from the other apes is brain size to body mass ratio. And even then, the gulf isn't vast. We can safely assume that any mammal with a similarly large brain in relation to body mass has the same range of emotions, capacity for complex thought, self-awareness, creativity, what-have-you. Language and communication isn't uniquely human. Nor is art. Hell, even tool use isn't unique to us.

      If the only measure of value is sapience, and it can be demonstrated that a non-human of any stripe shares that characteristic with us, than damn straight we ought to treat them the way we treat humans.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    7. Re:Non-human intelligences by mcvos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your suggestion in many ways is how slavery was justified by stating that the slaves were somehow an inferior animal.

      No. Slaves were fully human, and humans already had "personhood". Not just that, but slaves have asked for freedom. And even when they didn't speak the same language, they were still able to express their displeasure over their captivity. (Although I seem to recall a story about a circus with African elephants that were also clearly unhappy about their captivity, no matter their treatment. And yes, that means they tore the place down, and probably got shot.)

      In any case, I'm all for treating animals with respect, and letting them live in their own habitats rather than captivity. But giving them human rights simply because they might be slightly smarter than some other animals is just silly.

    8. Re:Non-human intelligences by mcvos · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How do you know what the gap is? I suppose it's easier to tell with our closest relatives, because there's some sort of baseline. But when you start talking about species who live in considerably different environments from us, like aquatic mammals, I think it becomes a good deal harder. For all you know, a whole lot of dolphins are saying "Fuck you murdering bastards" to the Japanese hunters that kill them en masse.

      And rightly so. I'm not saying that dolphin-killers aren't scum. But so are gorilla-killers and elephant-killers. And people who torment cats and dogs. I'm all for decent treatment of animals. I'm convinced that the "higher" animals have feelings too, and deserve to not be tortured or slaughtered or bred in brutal ways. But don't pretend that they're people, because they're just not.

      I am suggesting that it's a little to pat and really an application of circular reasoning to say "They're not persons because they're not like us, and we know this because they don't act like us."

      That's not circular reasoning, it's simply an observation. What better definition of person than "like us" do we have? If merely having a sense of self and a personality is enough to get the right to vote, then quite a lot of animals will fit that bill. Sure, dolphins are smart, but so are chimps and elephant. And whales, orang-utans and crows. But none of them come anywhere near any semblance of the kind of cultural ability that we have.

    9. Re:Non-human intelligences by mcvos · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We like to imagine ourselves as special, as evidenced by the way we write our mythologies and philosophy, but that's ego talking, not evidence.

      What? You don't think the fact that we write mythologies and philosophy at all makes us special among animals?

      All that distinguishes us from the other apes is brain size to body mass ratio. And even then, the gulf isn't vast.

      No, it's the fact that we write mythologies and philosophy that distinguishes us from other apes. And that gulf is vast.

      We can safely assume that any mammal with a similarly large brain in relation to body mass has the same range of emotions, capacity for complex thought, self-awareness, creativity, what-have-you.

      No we can't. That's pure speculation. In fact, it's not so much the size of the brain that matters, but the structure.

    10. Re:Non-human intelligences by BungaDunga · · Score: 4, Informative

      Do dolphins try to escape captivity? It's something humans do if they're where they don't want to be, so if it happens we might be able to conclude something about what the dolphins want.

      Secondly: You're wrong about race. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Race is entirely arbitrary and socially constructed. Brazilians, for example, tend to delineate race differently from Americans. So someone might be thought of as "black" in the US but as "white" in Brazil. Has anything changed about them? No. (getting this second hand from a very good anthropology professor, here).

      If you try to delineate race based on skin color, you quickly run into problems. Some people of Asiatic descent have very dark skin; some Africans have light skin. The San people- African- often have epicanthic eye folds (think "asian eyes"), but they're not Asian. And on and on, with any combination of characteristics. Even the most modern genetic tests can't tell you someone's race (otherwise, Americans and Brazilians would agree on what race someone is, every time). Yes, you can make very good guesses about someone's ancestry with DNA markers, but that's not race.

      "all blacks have similar features" is simply, again, wrong. It's not a matter of interpretation. People of African descent are actually more varied than everyone else, because only a relatively few humans made it out of Africa in the initial emigration. Africans are the most genetically diverse, because they didn't lose the genes that didn't come along for the ride out of Africa.

    11. Re:Non-human intelligences by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Informative

      Fun (but somewhat disturbing) fact--

      Some species of dolphin have prehensile penises, and have been shown to pick up and manipulate objects using their genital slits.

      (Star shoots over head while jingle plays)
      "The more you know!"

    12. Re:Non-human intelligences by ultranova · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm convinced that the "higher" animals have feelings too, and deserve to not be tortured or slaughtered or bred in brutal ways. But don't pretend that they're people, because they're just not.

      Well, obviously not, since since "people" is a plural for "human beings". This is a red herring.

      What better definition of person than "like us" do we have?

      You aren't like me. Given any group of humans that doesn't include you, you are almost guaranteed to have some trait the people in the group don't have, or lack some which they have.

      Your definition would let me declare bald people non-persons, which is clearly absurd.

      If merely having a sense of self and a personality is enough to get the right to vote, then quite a lot of animals will fit that bill.

      We aren't talking about right to vote, which is denied from quite a few humans too - all non-citizens, for example, making this another red herring. We're talking about things like not being kept in captivity against the individual being's will.

      And yes, quite a lot of animals - at least all mammals - have a personality, most bigger ones to the point where it's easy to tell individuals apart from behaviour even if they belong to the same species or even the same herd.

      Sure, dolphins are smart, but so are chimps and elephant. And whales, orang-utans and crows. But none of them come anywhere near any semblance of the kind of cultural ability that we have.

      This is a thid red herring. The issue isn't whether dolphins might build a fishbowl-tank to explore the dry land, the issue is whether they're self-aware enough that they should be treated as retarded humans rather than mere sources of amusement/study.

      Besides, getting a culture started requires more than intelligence, it requires hands. Elephants, whales and crows don't have those. Apes do, and, well, we are apes.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    13. Re:Non-human intelligences by RsG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that argument conflates "personhood" with "capacity" (that is, the legal term capacity). The poster you were replying to specifically referred to the former, you responded as if they'd argued about the latter. They aren't the same thing.

      A child can't sign a contract, make a will, drink, etc as they lack the legal capacity. They're still "people". The legal restrictions on capacity make that abundantly clear. What they don't have is the ability to fully understand the consequences of their actions. They have rights, but aren't mature enough to have the responsibilities that come with.

      I realize this is a nit-picking distinction, but it's relevant. A person is protected under the law, irrespective of capacity. You can't go out and kill a retarded man and argue before a judge that, as the victim lacked capacity, he was not a person, and therefor fair game. Acknowledging dolphins as "persons" in a limited way extends legal protection to them, even if they aren't afforded the same legal status as a mentally sound adult human being.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
  2. It depends by jbeaupre · · Score: 5, Funny

    How do they taste?

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    1. Re:It depends by dlgeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      Using their tongues.

  3. I agree by mswhippingboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    they should be treated as 'non-human persons.'

    Corporations are, so why not dolphins...

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
    1. Re:I agree by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, they go around beating the shit out of something and killing other animals for fun, *because they can*.

      Sounds awfully like humans to me...

    2. Re:I agree by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also clearly dogs are human. So are chimps.

      What the hell, what's NOT a human? A rabbit? A cockroach?

      You can come up with whatever justifications to 'give rights' to whatever you want, but in reality 'rights' are an abstract idea defined by humans.

      Do dolphins have the same 'rights' as humans? Well, it's up to humans to define. I, on my part, will always discriminate against dolphins, I promise that much.

      --
      You can't handle the truth.
  4. I have a better idea by operagost · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why don't we just leave them to their business, and keep to our own? Otherwise, we'll have community organizers signing up dolphins to vote in elections and lobbying for tax dollars to fund flipper-accessible housing.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  5. Why just dolphins? by Haedrian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Lots of creatures exhibit some form of intelligence. Should they have rights too? And why is intelligence the only factor? Should a stupid person have less rights than a dolphin? What about faster? or stronger? Should animals which have those traits be given rights too?

    Why do we have the right to give other creatures rights?

    And do you think tuna fishermen are going to stop using nets because they might catch something which has rights?

    1. Re:Why just dolphins? by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Funny

      Should a stupid person have less rights than a dolphin?

      FUCK YES.

      And in response to the obvious question, I'll happily eat Long Pig.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    2. Re:Why just dolphins? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Lots of creatures exhibit some form of intelligence. Should they have rights too? And why is intelligence the only factor? Should a stupid person have less rights than a dolphin? What about faster? or stronger? Should animals which have those traits be given rights too?

      Why do we have the right to give other creatures rights?

      You can grant "rights" to any species you like... Dolphins have the same intrinsic rights as humans. i.e. none.

  6. False equivalence by Locke2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...the current relationship between humans and dolphins is, in effect, equivalent to the relationship between whites and black slaves two centuries ago.

    Right, because everybody knows that humans and dolphins can interbreed.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  7. So they are smart ... by CannonballHead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... but they don't appear to develop* at all? I haven't seen any dolphin civilizations or "dolphin science" or "dolphin inventions" lately...

    * Develop not referring evolutionary development or something like that, but developing things to help them survive better, live better, enjoy life better.

    1. Re:So they are smart ... by mswhippingboy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I might remind you that humans didn't develop these capabilities until the last 10,000 years or so after around 2 billion years of evolution. Dolphins are/were quite content with their lives in the ocean being at the top of the food chain. What need did they have to develop civilization (although they are social animals), science or inventions? Humans were forced to come up with these to survive. That doesn't make humans better, just different.

      --
      Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
  8. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Get back to me when humans develop echolocation senses or become smart enough to stay out of traffic accidents.

  9. Re:Yes, but that will go against most of humanity. by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My experiences is that most people studying dolphins are quick to rely on confirmation bias.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  10. Re:What about pigs? by Spy+Handler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Believe me, the people who dream up stuff like this would LOVE to outlaw the eating of pork (and all other animal meats).

  11. That is as such. by unity100 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    dolphins have the capability to differentiate in between a human struggling due to drowning in the sea, and someone flapping, blabbing, attempting to swim in the sea for fun, and from a long distance. not even humans have that capability. and this is only one of the capabilities they can field.

    the difference in between humans and dolphins is that, humans are loaded on the iq side, and dolphins, are on the eq side. practically, human and dolphin populations are basically opposite twins of each others, when it comes to social interaction. of course humans are able to field some eq, as well as dolphins are able to field considerable iq. (the mind blobbing 'creating rings and blobs underwater play' pastime of dolphins, what they can do in research centers etc).

    i think it is time we have dropped the late 19th century standards and concepts for sentience (most of which depend on iq, not even basic cognition), and adapt something that is more appropriate with the level of science our civilization has.

    --
    Read radical news here
  12. No, they're not really that close by SlideRuleGuy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Because they live in a colder environment, their brains contain a higher percentage of glial cells, to generate warmth. We have fewer, as a percentage, but more of the neurons that actually process information. So bald comparisons of their brain size with ours are meaningless.

  13. Rapists by MrQuacker · · Score: 5, Informative
    Male dolphins will separate a female from her pod and deny her food or sleep until she lets them mate with her.

    They kidnap females so they can rape them.

    Yup, they sure act human-like.

    1. Re:Rapists by Haedrian · · Score: 4, Funny

      NB: Electric Chair Underwater may not be a good idea.

  14. Re:Rape by Haedrian · · Score: 4, Funny

    That depends. Are they leaking sensitive documents?

  15. Dolphin-intelligence study in 1958 by BlackSupra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/75068

    4. For the Love of Dolphins

    Perhaps the most troubling experiment in recent history is the dolphin-intelligence study conducted by neuroscientist John C. Lilly in 1958. While working at the Communication Research Institute, a state-of-the-art laboratory in the Virgin Islands, Lilly wanted to find out if dolphins could talk to people. At the time, the dominant theory of human language development posited that children learn to talk through constant, close contact with their mothers. So, Lilly tried to apply the same idea to dolphins.

    For 10 weeks in 1965, Lilly's young, female research associate, Margaret Howe, live with a dolphin named Peter. The two shared a partially flooded, two-room house. The water was just shallow enough for Margaret to wade through the rooms and just deep enough for Peter to swim. Margaret and Peter were constantly interacting with each other, eating, sleeping, working, and playing together. Margaret slept on a bed soaked in saltwater and worked on a floating desk, so that her dolphin roommate could interrupt her whenever he wanted. She also spent hours playing ball with Peter, encouraging his more "humanoid" noises and trying to teach him simple words.

    As time passed, it became clear that Peter didn't want a mom; he wanted a girlfriend. The dolphin became uninterested in his lessons, and he started wooing Margaret by nibbling at her feet and legs. When his advances weren't reciprocated, Peter got violent. He started using his nose and flippers to hit Margaret's shins, which quickly became bruised. For a while, she wore rubber boots and carried a broom to fight off Peter's advances. When that didn't work, she started sending him out for conjugal visits with other dolphins. But the research team grew worried that if Peter spent too much time with his kind, he'd forget what he'd learned about being human.

    Before long, Peter was back in the house with Margaret, still attempting to woo her. But this time, he changed his tactics. Instead of biting his lady friend, he started courting her by gently rubbing his teeth up and down her leg and showing off his genitals. Shockingly, this final strategy worked, and Margaret began rubbing the dolphin's erection. Unsurprisingly, he became a lot more cooperative with his language lessons.

    Discovering that a human could satisfy a dolphin's sexual needs was the experiment's biggest interspecies breakthrough. Dr. Lilly still believed that dolphins could learn to talk if given enough time, and he hoped to conduct a year-long study with Margaret and another dolphin. When the plans turned out to be too expensive, Lilly tried to get the dolphins to talk another way--by giving them LSD. And although Lilly reported that they all had "very good trips," the scientist's reputation in the academic community deteriorated. Before long, he'd lost federal funding for his research.

    This article originally appeared in mental_floss magazine
    http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/75068

  16. Re:No. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This post does absolutely not deserve an "insightful".
    Smart enough to stay out of a tuna net ...
    The main "sight" ability of dolphins is their echo location sense. And a net is invisible to that.
    In Europe fishers are required to but reflectors on the nets that can be sensed by dolphins since .. I don't know, 10 years, 20 years? Since then the kill rate of dolphins got reduced dramatically.
    Dolphins are perfectly capable of avoiding nets if they are able to sense them.

    Man even human divers die in fisher nets because they "are to dumb".

    angel'o'sphere

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  17. Re:Yes, but that will go against most of humanity. by nauseum_dot · · Score: 4, Informative

    by blind biker on Thursday January 06, @11:27AM (#34778808):
    I am a researcher in micro and nanotech, and I can confirm this trend in my field, as well. In fact, one journal in particular has been especially bad in rejecting my articles with some awful refereeing, which I will save for posterity. I am tempted to rub my published articles under the nose of the (probably equally incompetent or corrupt) editor of that journal.

    I'm going to lose the ability to mod...

    I doubt that you have studied dolphin behavior nor could you be a marine biologist or even properly studied, researching biologist.

    The above quote is from you, today at 11:27 AM and now at 4:22 PM, you post being the know all of behavior and animal psychology. Maybe you are a nanotechnology research specialist who develops and then implants chips into the brains of dolphins based on your personality studies measuring and recognizing "personhood" with the added bonus of statistically noting the externalities of increasing your karma/or slashdotness based on this research, but I doubt that too!

    --
    Crap! I just kissed my karma good-bye.
  18. Re:Yes, but that will go against most of humanity. by winomonkey · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe he just studies very small dolphins?