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DOJ Seeks Mandatory Data Retention For ISPs
Hugh Pickens writes "Computerworld reports that in testimony before Congress the US Department of Justice renewed its call for legislation mandating Internet Service Providers (ISP) retain customer usage data for up to two years because law enforcement authorities are coming up empty-handed in their efforts to go after online predators and other criminals because of the unavailability of data relating to their online activities. 'There is no doubt among public safety officials that the gaps between providers' retention policies and law enforcement agencies' needs, can be extremely harmful to the agencies' investigations,' says Jason Weinstein, deputy assistant attorney general at the Justice Department, adding that data retention is crucial to fighting Internet crimes (PDF), especially online child pornography. Weinstein admits that a data retention policy raises valid privacy concerns however, saying such concerns need to be addressed and balanced against the need for law enforcement to have access to the data. 'Denying law enforcement that evidence prevents law enforcement from identifying those who victimize others online,' concludes Weinstein." Think about how much evidence is denied to law enforcement by envelopes, opaque concrete, and criminals' failure to shout.
So, now ISPs all have to buy terabytes of hard disk space to store all of those log files just in case some nosy prosecutor comes a callin'? ISPs might be better off threatening to just shut down operations and leave their customers disconnected to get the point across to the lawyers in congress that they need to consult with the people they're trying to regulate before throwing impractical solutions at them.
The government basically has the ability to snoop into about any portion of your life, and some people want to INCREASE that ability? No thank you. He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
What else can happen when an unstoppable force collides with an immovable object?
I think as long as they have strict rules for the burden of evidence for a warrant to see these records, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I don't think that police should have free range over all of this data though. I think this data should be used to help convict people, not discover them in the first place.
And the business of government swells even bigger, with yet even more power and revenue for the elite at the top of the pyramid to leverage for their own benefit. It's beyond the point where the claim "government for the people, by the people" should be answered with laughter -- it should be answered with anger. The cold hard truth is that a government without strict limits on power and revenue WILL grow bigger and bigger until the dam finally bursts. And when it does, who do you think will suffer the most? I'll give you one hint: it sure as hell won't be the executives who control the business of government.
If records of my activities are recorded and available for investigation, and I have equal rights, those of all people should be too. Given that home users are directly linked to an ISP and all their activities can be directly monitored with a very high likelyhood of locating and monitoring the proper suspect in an investigation, they are at a distinct disadvantage when compared to others who can mix their activities with many other users in a large office or government division by hiding behind a corporate firewall, who can then respond to investigators with strong legal and technical protections as well. So all government offices and corporations should have their records kept by third parties as well, installed on equipment directly linked to their switches within their environments, and revealed to the public under FOIA and/or judicial order. In fact, for certain positions requiring high public confidence, such as public representatives, publicly traded companies, or groups managing public resources, connection of their own computers and that of their staff should be monitored and records kept for possible future breach of public trust investigations.
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It has been used to push similar laws through the legislature in Europe and its member states. Next stop on the "CP enables surveillance states" world tour: USA.
The public has a right to have evidence of crime collected and available for investigation in Washington.
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,quote> Think about how much evidence is denied to law enforcement by envelopes, opaque concrete, and criminals' failure to shout.
I remember reading (several years ago) about a chemical that can supposedly make paper temporarily transparent .Also, seems to me that graphite and even pen ink might show up on an MRI scan. As for concrete, a portable neutron scanner should be useful to get some idea of what is inside. (No idea if such a scanner would be affordable to any but the very most important cases any time soon.)
Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
Instead of telling ISPs that they need to start keeping tons of information for ridiculous lengths of time so that they can produce it if they get subpoenaed, why don't they focus on making the legal system work quickly enough that it doesn't TAKE two years to ask for it? (Then again... nah, that's crazy talk. It could never happen.)
There should not be a record, anywhere, of exactly who had which IP address when, accurate to the last IP address, person, and second, TWO YEARS AGO. Period.
Only if you want DC-area bathrooms to be flooded with, er, wide-stanced Republican congressmen.
This is OBAMA's "Justice" Department.
What a bunch of AssHats.
Shall we require walmart to stamp every inch of duct tape with a serial number, and retain records for every single customer of all items purchased, so we can map the unique id to a customer?
Are we forgetting the real concern here? Privacy is a concern for end users. But for large ISPs, a problem is cost and technical capability of storing precise information.
And the fact that tracking by ISPs is easily circumvented by tunnelling, proxying, and wireless.
Due to widespread NAT, a single IP address doesn't even map to an individual user, and the collection of usage data by the ISP for any significant amount of time is basically useless.
Since a reliable trace/track can only be performed for a short time. Once a few hours have passed, the 'tracked' computer can easily be moved. It may not even belong to the subscriber; particularly in WiFi, public place, and various other scenarios.
"saying such concerns need to be addressed and balanced against the need for law enforcement to have access to the data"
What does "addressed and balanced" mean other than "paid lip service to and ignored"? If police get the data, where is the balance?
especially online child pornography
There are 3 targets for every government intrusion on civil liberties:
1. Terrorists
2. Child porn
3. Drugs
The law enforcement agencies have determined that those are the issues that can be used to push absolutely anything through. For instance, trying to catch terrorists allows them to grope everybody with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing. Drugs allow them to break down your door at 2 AM, guns drawn, without identifying themselves as the government, and in some cases killing people. And of course child porn and terrorism allows them to watch absolutely everything you do online. That these are plainly illegal doesn't matter, because anybody who disagrees with them must be a terrorist, child pornographer, or junkie.
That doesn't mean those threats don't exist, but if they were serious about addressing the real risks around us they'd be focused on more mundane issues like traffic violations.
I am officially gone from
man, i've seen people say "1984 is not a manual" in their sigs, you yanks* must have read that and thought "Fine, we'll use mein kampf instead"
*the govern-mental types anyway
But good god, that is fucking scary right there...
People, what a bunch of bastards
I wonder if the "unavailability of data" and "returning empty-handed" are related to an exaggeration of the current level of threat, rather than varying ISP policies. The article suggests that a lead may be useless after the logs have expired, so why are they taking so much time to find and pursue such leads, if they are so many to mandate full logging from everyone? The article doesn't say...
I rarely respond to comments. Also, don't ask for clarifications: a brain and Google are faster, believe me!
adding that data retention is crucial to fighting Internet crimes (PDF), especially online child pornography.
Sorry, but what is this obsession with child pornography? I don't care that someone is looking at it. Sure I care that someone took the pictures / did whatever, but so what if people are looking at it. You can call them sick or whatever you want, but there is a huge difference between some perverse fantasy and acting on it. Have you been arrested for the random dream of killing your boss? I don't think so.
On this subject, is there anything else that is illegal to simply have possession of that can absolutely do no harm just by itself?
All this data retention crap w.r.t. recording IP addresses is a moot issue, when the ISPs will move to IPv6. Everyone will have a (set of) fixed IP addresses anyway; just like our currently fixed phone numbers. For everything else, we'll have to develop or use an already existing end-to-end encrypted layer on top of IP, so that ISPs as men in the middle won't have anything to record and report to our big brother governments.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Requiring warrants doesn't make conditions equal. Once data exists, it leaks, via legal, semi-legal, and extra-legal routes. There's no denying it happens. So if data exists on the public, data should exist on the officials. More so perhaps, as their positions require us to trust them for our basic rights to exist, but they don't need to trust us for their rights to exist. Records on citizens are usually used to prosecute criminals and/or abuse citizens rights. Records on public officials can be manipulated and forged to fake legitimacy. It'll be rare to have it leaked or released for evidence of abusive behavior. So the balance of power the records will supply has to be equalized somehow.
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"For the children" excuse, data retention, "cracking down", child molesters . . . Although I think almost all of these stories have the same elements, we would need new livers soon enough.
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(but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
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Whatever draconian laws USoA implements, they europeans want to implement pointing fingers at USoA and the need of such laws. Whatever draconian laws Europe implements, they americans want to implement pointing fingers at Europe and the need of such laws. Ah, conspiracies!
Given that it seems like quite a few cases of people who have illegal porn on their computers are caught when they take their computer in for service, why don't we just pass a law requiring that everyone has to take their computers in for random checks? Really, absurdity doesn't play a role in these decisions, does it?
fixed IP addresses anyway; just like our currently fixed phone numbers
IP addresses are a characteristic of the network equipment is plugged into, not a characteristic of the equipment itself.
If you take your laptop to a coffee shop and plug in, your IP address will change, even with IPv6. (Unless you tunnel to a machine with a fixed IP)
You can always tunnel to a machine outside jurisdictions that require retention.
Though I suppose it won't be too long before governments require ISPs to wiretap your connection and make records about which subscribers are using encrypted tunnels and how often/when/where/etc
This would be like saying that all phone providers need to record all Americans phone call 'content', just in case the government wanted to investigate you for something at a later date.
"In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
There was no technical ability to monitor before, by government or by people or by random groups. Concrete walls, paper envelopes and quiet conversations were all reasonable guarantees of privacy by nature, there was no way to record them. Now everything can become data and be recorded and transmitted. The cost is going down and the abilities expanding. It will be done undercover, and sold on a black or gray market, legal or not, in dozens of ways. As we are all seeing. Universal monitoring capability is here, there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. I believe there is no solution. Either the people monitor all their officials and powers-that-be, or the people become monitored one-way - legally or not.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
You do realize that publicly traded companies aren't "public" like the government, right?
Despite the misnomer, publicly traded companies are still private entities owned by individuals (or groups of individuals). What the heck gives you the right to see ANYTHING they are doing, aside from normal regulatory compliance?
The gap between people's data retention and law enforcement needs is high. People who don't log where they were every minute of the day are really hampering police investigations when they can't figure out what a suspect has been up to. The FBI would like Congress to authorize each person in the United States to be followed by a police officer or other agent so that their location at all times can be monitored and logged.
You coarse commentary has been deemed harmful to children and it has been recorded and forwarded to law enforcement. Hope you like Cuban food . . . .
pretend that the NSA isn't slurping up every last bit of real time data that flows over the Internet backbones in them AT&T beam-splitter closets and storing it somewhere deep and secret.
Alls they need to do is access that planet-sized repository and they can drink themselves giddy in the avalanche of human "criminal" activity.
I think this could actually be a good thing. Lets figure out exactly what ISP should retain and what would be available for law enforcement with and which without a warrant. For example, I do not have a problem with ISP keeping track of what subscriber had what IP address for the last two years. However, I find requiring an ISP to keep a copy of my IMs or browsing history without a signed warrant simply unacceptable. If we could come to something reasonable this data would not be unreasonably large. Users with DSL/cable often have a simi-static IP anyway now.. We'd also set terms so after, (lets say two years,) an ISP would purge the data for fear of being sued for privacy invasion.
Provide the information they seek ONLY when they provide a valid warrant. ISPs should not "informally" cooperate with law enforcement. If there is reasonable suspicion of a crime, the law enforcement agency should be able to convince a judge of that and obtain a warrant. Checks and balances.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Even if it was Osama Bin Laden brutally raping and murdering little kids and posting footage of same on YouTube it doesn't justify giving the government ANY right whatsoever to do wholesale data collection of telephone calls, bank account data, retail purchases, library borrowings or (as in this case) internet data (emails, web access etc).
I have no problem whatsoever with the FBI/cops/etc going to an ISP and saying "we have x IP address at y time, please find out which customer that was and set up a tap/trace on that customer so we can bust the guy" but wholesale data gathering is something I will NEVER support.
What we need is for someone to come up with something that shows why continued erosion of civil liberties is bad and wont do a thing to stop criminals (including Child Pornographers) or terrorists (including Osama Bin Laden). Something that even the most clueless person can understand.
If you can show people that what their government wants to do wont actually stop whatever criminal activity people want the government to stop (and more to the point, suggest an alternative that will be more effective in stopping the criminal activity in question) people might just listen.
End-to-end encryption is awkward, though. It's doable, yes, but it takes some level of skill to impliment still - and most people, having nothing to hide, just don't care about privacy that much. Just look at how many people use Facebook.
Apparently there's enough political figures that are into child porn, so they want to obtain it without causing any alarm.
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
So, we should monitor everybody so that if in the future we need to monitor a specific person, we'll already have the data. Brilliant!
Welcome to the surveillance society. Wouldn't this run afoul of the whole "unreasonable search and seizure"? Hell, keep everybody's web history long enough and you'll likely find something you could use against them.
I completely disagree that ISPs should just track everything in case law-enforcement wants it at some point. It's a little Orwellian, and I fear that it is only going to get worse -- in their zeal, governments are really going overboard. This is just depressing.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I watched the recording of Mr. Weinstein's testimony, among others, last night at work. Under questioning by the members of the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, he admitted that although the primary purpose of the database was to requisition information on the exploitation of children, the Justice Department would be stupid not to let all that information "go to waste". The onus of creating and maintaining the databases will be on the service providers, and Rep. Sensenbrenner (head of the subcommittee), flat out told the witness from the U.S. Internet Service Provider Association (Ms. Dean) that no matter what, this WILL be legislation and that the ISPs should get behind the movement or be forced to.
Yeah, terrorists, sexual preditors etc.... are on the face of the bill. But 20 bucks says RIAA and MPAA are the funders (of the lawyers and politicians of course, we will still be paying for the storage space etc...)
SSH tunnel from my ddwrt router so that all home traffic is encrypted as it passed through my ISP.
Yeh, my throughput drops and ping times go to hell, but with some shaping, that can be fixed with certain traffic sent SSH and others (like hulu or netflix) not rerouted (not sent SSH to the ec2 instance).
From my throughput tests, I get about 4.5 Mbps (I have 8Mbps via comcast) and ping times in the 200 to 300 ms times.
Oh, and three cheers for Obama, the constitutional scholar who was going to stand up for civil liberties.
I was a stand in security and abuse coordinator for a little less than a year at Time Warner Cable. All it took was a subpoena faxed to the office for us to hand over any data request. A lot of times cops would get pissed because a police letterhead fax wasn't enough, but it takes no time to get a subpoena. Police would try to say they were afraid the data could get purged if they didn't get it now, versus a few hours from now which is BS. I would tell them I already pulled the requested data and had it right in front of me so no worries about it being purged, they were not amused.
If any expansion of power is needed it should be the ability to have a request to hold data while a subpoena is processed. That is a simple answer, but the government isn't interested in simple answers its intent is to chip away at privacy so it can do whatever it wants whenever it wants.
"In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
It's not going to be just the police. If the data is there it will be available to civil suits. Things like showing your ex-spouse visits porn sites and is clearly not a suitable parent.
I do understand the cops. There is a lot of crime, and there is data available to catch crime, without having to resort to infiltrating organized gangs and risking the life of an investigator. Access to that data that could save a lot of lives and abuse and trouble, but such data collection is prohibited under privacy laws. Now, they must understand the public position if they want data to be able to do their jobs better. Allowing data to be collected is a serious invasion of privacy, basically amounts to strongly reducing rights of privacy, secrecy and anonymity. And the data will certainly leak in lots of ways. So, if they want data on people, they have to give up data on themselves. There is also a lot of crime and abuse that happens within police, government, legal offices, government offices, and corporate offices. The public needs that investigated too. Data can be collected in those places too. Equal rights. Certified collection, storage and authenticity of behavior data on everyone, on all levels, accessible to everyone, on all levels, on equal condition, or no data for anybody. That included everyone. Lawyers, justices, policemen, security officials, corporate employees, executives, their families, dogs, everyone. If you have privacy, I have privacy, if you have data, I have data. If you can read my writing, my reading, and my mind, I can read your writing, your reading, and your mind. And we all want full system auditing rights, too.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
All they ask for in this statement is exactly what you said you have no problem with: a reverse mapping of (IP address, time) to customer and customer information (e.g., address).
The problem, they claim, is that ISPs only store this data for short periods of time, which is insufficient. They specifically mention that they are not requesting that ISPs start storing data that they do not already store.
Fox News would point out the guinea pigs obvious connections to Al Qaeda mentioning the word Islam and terrorists together at least a dozen times for good measure.
"Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
If they want individual behavior data records to audit misbehaving people, let them produce it on themselves first and give the example. When we see a serious increase in the levels of sentencing, not just arrests, of public and corporate officials and law enforcement for pedophilia, involvement in drug trafficking, blackmailing, illegal espionage, corruption, and so on, then we'll discuss allowing it for the rest of the population.
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Phone numbers aren't fixed ... to the technically savvy. Bouncing a phone between countries has never been easier due to SIP and Skype. There are also completely encrypted point-to-point free SIP solutions. You need to care enough to setup the software on both ends, since the encryption is not portable across all SIP solutions.
Your concern over IPv6 is real for most people. It also provides IPSec tunnels for everyone, which can be useful. I'm worried that some IPv6 implementations may prevent the random change to the MAC address so your specific hardware isn't tracked.
It may be time for a federation of secure service providers with IPSec tunnels around the world. Basically, paid TOR tunnels, but for all traffic until the endpoint to keep this away from prying government and other eyes.
What is it about the internet that makes it a target? Why not keep records of every phone call ever made to any number at any time? Why not keep a mandatory record of book purchases? Magazine subscriptions? Why not mandate that all travel plans must be sent ahead of time to a central data base that will keep the records just in case?
If you can show people that what their government wants to do wont actually stop whatever criminal activity people want the government to stop (and more to the point, suggest an alternative that will be more effective in stopping the criminal activity in question) people might just listen.
Your assumption is wrong: The Onion Router provides the proof you seek.
You see, no matter how blatant, commonplace or accessible the proof is people just won't listen; People are stupid -- It's the Wizard's First Rule: Some people will believe anything if they fear it to be true.
Telco's should record all phone calls as well since there must be volumes of incriminating evidence being sent via voice.
1984 wasn't wrong in principle. It just got the date wrong.
...that next, the police will demand new laws that you must equip your homes, cars, and businesses with full-coverage 24x7x365 video surveillance at your expense, and keep all recordings for a very long time just in case any crime ever occurs there. According to your opinion, the police won't have "free range" over all this recorded data, only whatever they're entitled to by a warrant. But still you'll have to bear the cost to make their jobs easier. Failure to comply will, of course, become a crime itself.
Now do you see the problem?
Actually there is no way in hell they'll do that because last time they tried tracing child porn it led them to the Pentagon! That's right boys and girls, your tax dollars at work, as they had the giant brass balls to actually buy and download CP while sitting there at work in the Pentagon.
And why wouldn't they? Because unlike those poor peasants where they are guilty until proven innocent the prosecutor declined to file charges in nearly all the cases!
So if they want to pass this I think we should start with a five year "zero tolerance" policy for government officials of ALL branches. How much you want to bet they'd be all for privacy then? Sadly this will never be, instead it'll be another case where the law doesn't apply to them, just to everyone else.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Everyone will have a (set of) fixed IP addresses anyway
This might have something to do with the resistance to IPV6.
My sense is that the "need" for ISPs to do their work for them indicates that law enforcement could better utilize their limited resources.
Maybe spend fewer resources on enforcing, say, drug laws, marijuana specifically, and more time and resources on other crimes that actually hurt people?
And I don't necessarily mean physical crimes (assault, murder) -- how about simple burglary or breaking and entering?
A neighbor's house got broken into; the daughter's laptop was stolen and the window to her room was damaged beyond repair. She needed a laptop for school and, obviously, the window needed replacement. So they're out $3k they don't necessarily have and/or she falls behind in school or they can't close the window to her room, none of which are very palatable choices, especially in a Minnesota winter.
Yet, when they called the cops they got two nice guys who gave them a case number and took the laptop S/N "on the very slim chance it turns up."
So, basically there's no resources to do extra patrols or extra investigators but plenty of guys to take down pot dealers. Yay.
they dont' care about child porn. they care about movie pirates, music pirates and so forth. its the same thing in airports. they've even said the scanners and pat downs have caught more drugs than anything else. the idea is to get a law passed under the pretense of something we all agree is horrible, then use is it to further their real intentions... being the cops for the large corporations and moral majority.
the US Department of Justice renewed its call for legislation mandating Internet Service Providers (ISP) retain customer usage data for up to two years because law enforcement authorities are coming up empty-handed in their efforts to go after online predators and other criminals
Just as long as politicians are exempt.
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
Re: Fixed IPv6 addresses That would depend on how your ISP deploys IPv6. In the cases that I know of, you're gonna get a dynamic IPv6 address pretty much the same way you do in IPv4 (see RFC 3315). Or for the enlightened ISPs, you'll get an entire /56 prefix from your ISP (or at least something between a /48 and /64).
Why not just require everyone to have a facebook account in order to access the internet? Zuckerberg seems more than willing to track, retain, and share your personal info with just about anybody. This would take the burden off from the ISPs.
especially online child pornography
There are 3 targets for every government intrusion on civil liberties:
1. Terrorists
2. Child porn
3. Drugs
Four actually: you missed organized crime/money launderers.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalypse
This is about as useful as a tank of gas with no car. Especially since courts have already determined that an IP address does not identify a person, rather a machine (pc, router, etc). As evidenced in articles such as these: http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=109242 ; http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/08/1522247/Judge-Rules-IP-Addresses-Not-Personally-Identifiable?from=rss & http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090708/1323075488.shtml I am sure there is more out there, but if we can't identify a person by IP, then why should I have to keep records of IP traffic for up to 2 years?
--- haasta IT consultant | Web Programmer
Fuck da po lice !!
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Maybe I missed it, but I see nothing that says you have to turn all ISP data over, and that the govt will keep it for 2 years. What I see, is them saying ISP's should keep data, like who is online and under what IP, so that it can be requested for up to 2 years in the future.
So if they are working a case, and say a year later, they find they need proof that suspect X was online from this IP, to corrolate the link between the person and the activity, they can obtain a subponea and request said records. If by default you only logged it for a week, then they would be SOL, so they want longer record keeping. Not saying this is a great thing, that you would be mandated to keep records for years, but I do see the jist of what they are after.
Still I see nothing in the initial post that said anything about them auto gathering the info from everyone, and holding it by default for years, and not needing a valid court order. Maybe I missed something in the post.. LOL
So the balance of power the records will supply has to be equalized somehow.
We just have to throw enough chaff into the system to drown it in crap
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Only if you want DC-area bathrooms to be flooded with, er, wide-stanced Republican congressmen.
I'm no fan of Bush's criminal party, but neither party has a monopoly on wrongdoing or is composed of 100% clean-record public officials. Investigate everyone and let the chips fall where they may.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
http://www.open-mesh.com/
closest thing I've found so far.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
The reason they want mandatory data retention for ISP's is because they have fallen short while actively hunting Americans who speak truth.
Truth is now a crime, there won't be any public protest, the doj will just pass this shit allowing the doj to
dig up dirt on anyone and fuck their life if they
1. protest the NWO and point out foreign and corporate connections
2. expose 911 as the inside job it was
3. Expose the BP disaster, and the people now dying from it
4. expose about the banksters
5. defend the constitution
6. negative talk about the TSA / DHS
In my opinion, what we need is a log file virus.
It's not going to be just the police. If the data is there it will be available to civil suits. Things like showing your ex-spouse visits porn sites and is clearly not a suitable parent.
Fair game, so long as legit, verified data of the same kind is available on anyone and everyone upon judicial order, from the nerdy teenager all the way to everyone in the White House, DOJ, Wall St, Pentagon, your boss and his wife, etc. We'll see who has the most stuff to hide.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
According to the article you linked to, most of them were charged. One fled the country & at least 1 died before he could be indited.
On the other hand, how exactly do you find child porn on a PC doing virus removal or hardware repairs? Unless the guy is stupid enough to leave the individual files on the desktop or label a folder child porn you shouldn't have any clue that it's there.
So the balance of power the records will supply has to be equalized somehow.
We just have to throw enough chaff into the system to drown it in crap
Honestly if something like this were proposed and I actually thought the records on all officials would be kept and presented correctly, when investigations are requested by the public, I would vote for it. I think the public in general would have much less to hide than people in power.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
And if the cops lose control and beat you, well you just won a multi-million dollar lottery. Celebrate.
Even if you can get a civil lawsuit past the cops' Qualified Immunity , then they still do not give a rat's ass if they lose the lawsuit because they are not the ones who pay any damages. All the cost of paying lawsuits and damages comes out of the taxpayers' (yours and mine) pockets because the cops' employer municipality, not the cops individually, who have to pay.
For now that is. If people start getting arrested left and right for stuff they did on their ISP, or their school suspends/expels them for activities done at home, people will start caring and start locking their business down.
I think it is only a matter of time before we start seeing some extremely large anonymous VPN services appearing, and an anonymous service provider will be as needed as an ISP.
One of my clients is a coffee shop that offers 3 hours of wifi with purchase. I built the software that allows people to log in using their rewards card or by typing their name and an employee granting access. It's been working well for over 5 years on a FBSD box.
The question then becomes, do they count as an ISP? Will they have to maintain records and if so, for a small business like theirs is it going to be worth the hassle?
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
We need mandatory data retention for bars and restaurants. Bars and restaurants should be required to retain audio and video surveillance data for six months, in case it's needed by law enforcement.
Implementation should begin with Washington, D.C., to retain evidence of political corruption.
Or whose records were "lost" in a "freak backup accident".
Later in TFA they say it might in the best case just be IP lease info but that it might also include all source (outbound) data including complete web and email history. Note that web history means deep packet inspection.
How do you know these out of country VPNs aren't honeypots and/or monitored by the CIA or some other government agency?
they dont care abought those things. they will just use it to go after movie pirates and music pirates.
Oh, here we go again.
Fair game, so long as legit, verified data of the same kind is available on anyone and everyone
Screw that. How about this instead: we don't log everything I do, and we don't log everything you do, and we don't log everything the police do, and we all go about our merry way until someone is explicitly accused of wrongdoing and a judge orders their data collected. If the TSA wanted to implement anal probes in routine screening, the correct response is not "OK, but we get to probe you back!"
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
"If criminals would always schedule their movements like railway trains, it would certainly be more convenient for all of us."
The Valley of Fear
I assume that any Internet measure that mentions child pornography in its preamble is based on false pretenses and should be opposed. It saves time.
If you can show people that what their government wants to do wont actually stop whatever criminal activity people want the government to stop (and more to the point, suggest an alternative that will be more effective in stopping the criminal activity in question) people might just listen.
I admire your optimism, but my experience suggests otherwise. When you bring someone face-to-face with an unpleasant truth, the tendency is to pull a Miracle Max (you know, fingers in their ears while loudly repeating, "nobody's hearing nothing, la la la la"). Why? Because people are generally lazy, and forcing the government to change requires effort. Typically, people are unwilling to expend that effort until things get so bad that they can no longer pretend not to see what's happening around them, and by then, it's usually too late.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Am I the only one appalled by our government's sense of entitlement? Why should ISPs have to retain this data just to make the government's ability to snoop on citizens easier? What's next?
Citation?
seg fault
Years later, I still make the same point:
If they can't see who's trading "child porn", then how do they "know" people are trading it???? COME ON. This is insane. They are lying. They are predating on people's kneejerk reactions to anything connecting kids and sex to install a Final Solution internet tracking system.
And who wants this bet: after they get the Panopticon, they won't find much kid porn - but will never disclose that. Or that they are using the Panopticon for political purposes, ie hitting whistleblowers and liberal causes such as antiwar protests and environmental activists.
I thought they already kept everything they needed to analyze on THEIR servers when it was associated to terrorism...i mean i could say
I will detonate a bomb tomorrow at this location, and because i said this on a forum, they are supposedly running all sorts of apps to log and analyze the packets on the internet, and I will probably be flagged as a bad guy tomorrow morning....could they not just add a filter for whatever they need to log...instead of trying to force ISP to spend more money of their own, which in turn will end up costing the end user (us) more, because you know they will never pay for this out of their own pocket...get ready to pay double what your internet costs are now in the near future, if this goes through...
By the same logic, law enforcement could say they need 2 years worth of full GPS tracking data on every person. Just in case they need to catch a child molester one day.
There is no doubt in that official's head that the gap between a person being somewhere and when the police comes looking is detrimental to police's efforts at catching criminals, and must be closed by ensuring that there are logs where everyone has been at any time.
Cuban food? They only feed you certain American sandwiches.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I need the DOJ to buy me a couple of xServes and a large raid 5 array or ten a rack of space rental and a couple of admins salary full time and another office in the data hotel where I have our really small b2b ISP. What they are asking ISPs to do would otherwise bankrupt me. We have a small ISP, with a few clients, but they are all high profile sites and have huge traffic numbers. Of and a nice high end router so all this data to be collected can be forked off without affecting my customers business too much. I'd need to capture roughly 200 GB a day and store it how long DOJ? You folks are nuts just on technical grounds, let alone financially. OH yeah, are my backbone connection providers (also ISPs) supposed to also collect this same information? You'd think so by the lax specification of what they ask for. And then there is that pesky assumption of privacy thing. As we get more and more of our day to day communications (drop off in landline phones and snail mail because of VOIP and email are just one example) Internet based we are being asked to open more and more of our once personal information to the government. It has to stop.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
We are in an era in which publicity causes all kinds of absurd laws and law enforcement actions to take place. An example is the OJ Simpson and Nicole nightmare. Ever since that happened women have gotten a huge legal edge that is very dangerous. How is it that the college lives of an entire soccer team at Duke can be ruined, the freedom of the team members placed in dire danger and the financial costs of the false allegations haunting the families of those men forever yet the woman who deliberately lied is not locked in jail for the rest of her life? Why is it that the penalty for false accusations does not equal the penalty for the supposed crime? A twenty year sentence would not begin to make up for the harm done by that junkie.
What a (non-)surprise. Justice Ministers all over Europe, and now the US too, are seeking data retention laws. Even ministers who were originally against any form of data retention like Germany's civil rights advocate Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger. It is really creepy to see 'em all fall for the global security agenda.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
It would not be difficult mein Furher!....
I'm sorry, Mr. President...
Yet those same people will complain loudly if the government threatens to do something like legalize gay marriage or legalize pot...
"Think about how much evidence is denied to law enforcement by envelopes, opaque concrete, and criminals' failure to shout."
Think about how much evidence is lost because we don't ubiquitously record all conversations, everywhere we go.
Two shall enter, one shall leave!
The future will never be the same, will war, tyranny, banksters and monetary system destruction, death and slavery rule or will all this be a bad dream and the unicorn ***** skittles out from his ass in the sky as we all have pig sex six times a day underneath the shade trees?
Cost: All Ages, Free Admission , ultimately it will cost your life regardless if you attend or not
I wrote "conservative" not "libertarian". Big difference--the former approves of strong government control over the people.
Absolutely not. The present Republican Party does to some extent (not as much as the Democrats). Conservative means "cautious or avoiding excess". By definition, a true conservative does not approve of "strong government control over the people".
Libertarian and Republican parties are two different branches of conservative thought. They are both conservative (theoretically).
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
True 'nuff
I never said people were consistent or made sense...
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?