Slashdot Mirror
Kinect's Grandaddy Running On an Apple IIe In 1978
An anonymous reader writes "30 years before words like performance capture, augmented reality, or avatars were around — let alone commonplace — experimental film and video artist Tom DeWitt created a system that features aspects of all of them. Pantomation let users interact in real-time with a digital environment and props. It was built using Apple IIe's, analog video gear, and lots of custom hacking and patching. He's currently working on a holographic 3D system that's similarly ahead of its time."
I seem to remember reading something about this in an old National Geographic picture book when I was like... 7. A slightly-overweight kid standing akimbo in front of an old Apple with a representation of him on the screen.
Man, we remember the weirdest, most random things sometimes...
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
I find it quite hard to believe that anything he does *now* on his trusty Apple IIe is ahead of it's time ;)
After seeing the video I can imagine the following scene:
Tom DeWitt: Star Wars Kid, I am your father.
Star Wars Kid: Noooooooo.
English is not this
...or Tom DeWitt?
Apple IIe in 1978?! It was probably an Apple II (released in 1977). The Apple IIe wasn't released until 1983. See Timeline and History of the Apple II series
I believe lots of things fall into that category.
Xerox may have invented the mouse and the concept of on-screen "windows", but these things were widely used on Apple machines before Microsoft had fully sorted out Windows V 1.0. Hell, I think even USB and Firewire are covered by being on an Apple machine before windows and before the iPhone existed.
Say what you will about about Apple, but they have really been bringing new technology to users for a long time.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Is there an alternative link I can use? I want to read about these Apple computers and their interface.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
People were already talking about augmenting the human intellect 40 years ago....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmentation_Research_Center
>>>something was running on an Apple product before it was on a Microsoft product
LOTS of things first saw the light of day on those old 8-bit machines:
- windows/mouse interfaces (Apple, Atari, Commodore)
- security cameras & alarms run by my Commodore=64
- 128-color porn on Ataris
- music & voice coming from the 1977 Atari console
- full-scale video on my C=64
- ripped music from the radio, or downloaded off the net, playing back on the Commodore SID and Amiga Paula
- and on and on and on.
There's very little that is truly new. Most of it was invented in the late 70s and 80s, but it was not widely adopted until later.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Reminds me of this other informative early computer related video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IgF6_jVaj8
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
"Xerox may have invented the mouse and the concept of on-screen "windows","
It certainly did not. Why is ignorance of technological history so prevalent????
"Say what you will about about Apple, but they have really been bringing new technology to users for a long time."
No, they haven't. They were lucky to be able to steal/copy/buy the best ideas for a long time.
The IIe wasn't released until 1983. It would have been the Apple II, which was still a cool little machine. (Ok, I've still got two of them in the shed...)
sudo mount --milk --sugar
Phantomation: Kinect, I am your Father.
Kinect: That's impossible!
Phantomation: Look into your source code, you know it to be true!
Kinect: Nooooooo!!!!!
I just can't resist boasting that I was selling a commercial product, "LIVE!", for the Amiga. A video input board, it was used at the Amiga launch.
Later a Canadian/Seattle company called VeryVivid wrote some very beautiful software for that board using the same principles as deWitt demonstrates. You could have birds fly to your hand, play virtual cymbals and drums, and may other effects.
If anybody can locate video of that, I'd love to see it again
Yet, Apple fans always want to point out how "revolutionary" their products were. Not really, many people and companies have done a tremendous job creating, innovating and trying to market those products to the masses.
Hi hope Microsoft is paying this guy for all his efforts...
PRIOR ART???
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Reading his paper reveals that the hologram in use is an interference pattern taken from a live subject, then immediately read into the computer. It is not a 3DTV holo that floats in your living room for you to watch.
Still awesomely cool though. Why did evolution never invent this method to let human vision capture depth more directly?
I remember seeing some of this as part of an elementary school field trip in the late 70's. Maybe to the LA Museum of Modern Art? It was neat, and all, but I wasn't a fan of modern art - even back then.
When I clicked on the link my computer spontaneously rebooted. Apparently it's still ahead of my time too.
Where are my mod points....
Please moderate this as awesome
Jehovah be praised, Oracle was not selected
So, how is this different from Microsoft?
Acorn (of bbc micro fame) productised a comparable thing somewhere in the 90s. Worked pretty well too. Might see if you can revive it through riscos on a beagle board.
Say what you will about about Apple, but they have really been bringing existing technology to pretty packaging for a long time.
Fixed that for you. Apple is much more of an evolutionary comapny than a revolutionary one.
I wonder how many patents Mr. Dewitt's activity undermines!
I wonder if we can kill some patents with this?
I find it far more likely that this would happen:
Tom DeWitt: Star Wars Kid, I am your father.
Star Wars Kid: Je ne compris pas.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
That was my first thought too. Perhaps it wasn't properly "published"?
"The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
Add this to the trivia since we are comparing old and new.... The developers of Amiga computers came up with their error code system -- Anyone remember Guru Meditation Errors? ------ from an internal game where people had to sit perfectly still on a pressure sensitive mat attached to development Amiga 1000's.
"Say what you will about about Apple, but they have really been bringing new technology to users for a long time."
No, they haven't. They were lucky to be able to steal/copy/buy the best ideas for a long time.
The two sentences are not contradictory. It is entirely possible to do both.
un-ALTERED reproduction and dissimination of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
MS has been bust stealing/copying/buying the bad ideas.
Infact this is positively patent invalidating.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
http://home.earthlink.net/~scan3d/
While you are correct, you are grossly undervaluing the work of pioneers at each milestone. No one worked in a vacuum back then.
You would have really earned some "geek points" if you mentioned that Douglas Engelbart was inspired by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad program from 1963 when he created NLS (what your video link was about). NLS had several modes of operations, but none of them resemble what we have today.
The modern desktop evolved from many years of work and research by pioneers in their field.
1952 - The trackball was invented by Tom Cranston, Fred Longstaff and Kenyon Taylor working on the Royal Canadian Navy's DATAR project.
1963 - The computer mouse was invented by Douglas Engelbart and Bill English.
1963 - Ivan Sitherland's Sketch program was created.
1969 - Douglas Engelbart demonstrated NLS (oNLine System)
1970 - David A. Evans created a primitive hypertext-based groupware program that ran on NLS
1972 - Xerox Alto was conceptionalized
1979 - Apple's McIntosh project began.
1982 - Xerox Star was introduced to the market. ($75,000 base + $16,000 for each additional workstation).
1982 - Commodore begins development on the Amiga which was originally intended to be a next-generation game computer. (Jay Miner was originally with Atari).
1983 - Apple markets the Lisa the first GUI based personal computer ($9,995).
1983 - Chase Bishop starts "Interface Manager" and is announced by Microsoft as Windows (after Lisa was released)
1984 - Apple introduced the Macintosh a much more affordable GUI based personal computer ($1,995).
1985 - The Commodore Amiga was released ($1,295)
1985 - The Atari ST was released ($999).
1985 - DRI releases GEM/1
1985 - Microsoft Windows 1.0 was released.
1987 - Microsoft Windows 2.0 was released.
1990 - Microsoft Windows 3.0 was released and Microsoft finally begins its transition from CLI to GUI products.
I know I left some milestones out, but I just wanted to illustrate that the modern desktop was an evolutionary process with many innovations taking place between 1952 and 1984. Of course, Microsoft catches up when all the hard work is finished :P. I'm joking of course. In fact I'll clarify 1990 for them.
1990 - Microsoft Windows 3.0 was released which becomes a significant milestone for GUI on the x86. It may have not been the first, or the best, but it did bring the GUI desktop to the masses. After all with Apple, Xerox, DRI, Commodore, and Atari using GUI, Microsoft had no choice and would have ceased to exist if they hadn't caught up with questionable tactics that led to a settlement with the DOJ in 2001.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Adding comments has been disabled for this video.
Hallelujah. If only all Youtube uploaders were so benevolent.
hey - I originally posted this comment. And Tom DeWitt, now Ditto, happens to be my boss. Yes, you're right about the II/IIe distinction - h'es going get a kick out of that! What we're currently working on can be read about here: www.3dewitt.com
Not quite... Stanford's SRI invented the mouse, led by Douglas Engelbart. His department's funding was severely cut after the Vietnam war, which opened the door for Xerox to poach many of Engelbart's staff, bringing their fancy tech along with them to PARC. Xerox made it popular, and Apple made it famous, but SRI came up with the idea in the first place.
The only thing Apple does "different" is they don't go after the bargain bottom. They recognized that resistive touchscreens were shit, so they used a capacitive screen on the iPhone. They saw that USB 1.0 was shit, so they promoted Firewire. Apple's gear costs a lot more than common PC gear, but they have cultivated a clientele that is willing and able to spend that kind of money.
There is a ton of cool hardware out there, but much of it is beyond the budget of most PC buyers. As a current example, (flash) SSDs are just starting to enter the mainstream, yet hardcore geeks like myself have had them since the 90's. They cost a mint back then, but that was the price of admission to be on the bleeding edge of tech.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
hey - you're right, it was a II, not at IIe. Like someone pointed out, it was originally developed on the PDP-8 and ported to the Apple II, but I think the significance of it is still pretty apparent. Re: the holographic stuff, that doesn't apply to Pantomation - it's much more current, and believe it or not, much more futuristic, too. I currently work with Tom, and you can check out what we're doing @ www.3dewitt.com
> No, they haven't. They were lucky to be able to steal/copy/buy the best ideas for a long time.
You mean *shock* just like MS ?
Q-Dos -> MS-DOS
Spyglass -> Internet Explorer
I could go on, but I'll let you read it for yourself ...
http://www.mcmillan.cx/innovation.html
The mini-computer they talk about in this video is the PDP-8/L, not an Apple II, although the system was later ported to Apple II in the early 80s.
It's worth noting that the original Apple II (and most other microcomputers from the early 70s) would have been much more powerful, cheaper, and easier to program than the PDP-8, and the Apple II would have been an excellent choice for a project like this, due to its expandable and well-documented hardware architecture. However, I'm sure they started development of this system well before the original Apple II would have been well known or even available.
ENDUT! HOCH HECH!
Another early innovator in this area is Myron Krueger. His installation "videoplace" (1972-1990) was a lot like what Sony's Eyetoy would recreate later.
It was based around a colourful silhouetted video of the user (visually very similar to the iPod commercials). One of the many spectacular things it could do was what it could superimpose a little creature that tried to climb to the top of your head.
To see the climbing creature skip to 3:40 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmmxVA5xhuo
How about this computer system? With light gun graphical input? IN THE 1950s?
Or how about this little system? Encrypted digital voice, in WWII?
I can keep going. How about Vannevar Bush? Ever hear of him? JCR Licklidder? MITRE Corporation? All the *real* people that invented the ideas and systems we take for granted today? And that FAR too many people mistakenly attribute to the Space Race?
They were using an early version of Apple's Time Machine application.
Where did he mention anything about MS not stealing/buying/copying ideas? Oh wait, he didn't and you're just making a strawman argument.
It's not. That's the point.
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Apple has better spin doctors in their marketing/PR section.
Heheh, I see PRIOR ART.
Bach says it all.
No one worked in a vacuum back then.
Well, except for physics professors...
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
LOTS of things first saw the light of day on those old 8-bit machines:
- windows/mouse interfaces (Apple, Atari, Commodore)
First? Doug Englebart would like a word with you. And it's generally acknowledged that Xerox PARC (yes, the copier company) pioneered the modern GUI. The Star was a commercial failure because of its price, but it was a real product, and it had all that stuff first. Steve Jobs notoriously took a tour of PARC and borrowed ideas for their own GUIs from them.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
I’ve never read Slapdash, so thanks Scott Elofson for the heads up on this. “Anonymous” has got to be a former RPI student. This work was done from 1977-87 at the Video Synthesis and the Image Processing Labs. It started on a PDP-8L and migrated in 1983 to an Apple II. That made it portable, and it was shown in live demos all around like at SIGGRAPH (’86 & ’87) and at the Museum of Modern Art of the City of Paris (’83-’84). There are videos, so I’ll find and post some. More to come from me too, because in ’84 I started doing the 3D acquisition another way. That led to patents, NSF and NASA grants, and now a startup. TD
Optomystic
Might be slightly off here, but that is the general idea.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
You corect the AC GP mentioned Apple.
Apple is no better (or worse) then MS in this regard. ... OR said another way ...
MS is no better (or worse) then Apple in this regard.
Why people shocked that tech companies buy other tech companies?
Get the point now idiot??