Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Japan's Elderly Nix Robot Helpers

Posted by Soulskill on from the sowing-seeds-of-distrust-for-the-inevitable-uprising dept.

SteeldrivingJon writes with this quote from a story at the BBC: "In Japan, robots are friendly helpers, not Terminators. So when they join the workforce, as they do often in factories, they are sometimes welcomed on their first day with Shinto religious ceremonies. But whether the sick and elderly will be as welcoming to robot-like tech in their homes is a question that now vexes a Japanese care industry that is struggling with a massive manpower shortage. Automated help in the home and hospitals, believe some, could be the answer. A rapidly aging first world is also paying close attention to Japan's dalliance with automated care. ... The country's biggest robot maker, Tmsuk, created a life-like one-meter tall robot six years ago, but has struggled to find interested clients. Costing a cool $100,000 a piece, a rental program was scrapped recently because of 'failing to meet demands of consumers' and putting off patients at hospitals. 'We want humans caring for us, not machines,' was one response."

30 of 200 comments (clear)

  1. Xenophobia... by babymac · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, if you want humans to care for you, Japan, you just might have to accept people who don't speak or look Japanese. Get over your completely homogeneous society already!

    --
    "War makes me sad." - Me
    1. Re:Xenophobia... by TheLink · · Score: 4, Funny

      Nah that's not the problem.

      They just need to consume more fries and cola (and keep away from that grilled fish and green tea). Then they'd have fewer elderly :).

      Surprisingly they smoke quite a lot and they're still not dropping dead quite fast enough for their economy.

      --
    2. Re:Xenophobia... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      They might have to accept people that don't look Japanese, but speak? Seriously? I don't think it's too much to ask for the people caring for your elderly to be able to communicate with them without calling in the floor translator. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to have to pantomime out what you need from the people who are being paid to care for you.

    3. Re:Xenophobia... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their problem is quickly becoming one of choosing a poison. The elderly vs middle aged vs young adults vs children gap in Japan is approaching critical. Most of the industrialized world is experiencing problems with an aging populace: the problem is less pronounced but existent in the US, noticeable in a lot of Europe, getting serious in other parts of Europe, and nearing critical in Japan. If the Japanese elderly don't want to cared for by robots, and they don't want to be cared for by non-Japanese (or non-Japanese speakers, let's face it Japanese is neither a commonly learned nor easy to learn second language) their remaining choices are getting thin.

      It's simple math. If there aren't enough young people to care for the old people you either need to import more young people or find another solution. What that solution is I don't know, but robots were at least a legit attempt.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    4. Re:Xenophobia... by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's important for workers to speak the local language not just to make things easier for their employers, but also so that they are aware of their rights.

      When I moved to Finland a few years back, I initially despaired that even lowly jobs required a decent knowledge of Finnish, but when I reached relative proficiency in the language and started working in blue-collar part-time work to put myself through grad school, I was happy that I could understand the rights gained for me and my colleagues in collective bargaining between the union and my employer (every worker has these rights, even if they aren't a union member).

      But an immigrant who doesn't speak the local language can be exploited mercilessly by his employers.

    5. Re:Xenophobia... by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      <humor>Exactly, the solution to this problem is not robots, its Mexicans. </humor>

    6. Re:Xenophobia... by blind+monkey+3 · · Score: 2

      It's simple math. If there aren't enough young people to care for the old people you either need to import more young people or find another solution. What that solution is I don't know, but robots were at least a legit attempt.

      Soylent Green.

      --
      BM3
    7. Re:Xenophobia... by maugle · · Score: 2

      Their problem is quickly becoming one of choosing a poison.
      ...
      If there aren't enough young people to care for the old people you either need to import more young people or find another solution. What that solution is I don't know...

      Y'know, I think you may have stumbled upon the solution already...

  2. there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1. many countries complain about the downside of immigration. but japan is one of the few countries that actually polices it obsessively, such that there is very little, and what little of it that there is, is strictly temporary and vigorously policed. as such, japan has a greying population and has to build robots, because they fear koreans or chinese or filipinos will somehow destroy their country. nonsense. there's nothing wrong with controlled immigration, but the japanese have a very weird hang up about it. still, considering their racial hang ups, you have to wonder what bothers the elderly more: a nonjapanese nurse or a robot?

    2. finally, there's this story:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/asia/28generation.html

    japan is a "grey democracy," a gerokelptocracy (made up word): the elderly hoarde the power in corporations and in society's rules such that the young can't get a foothold. young workers are underpaid and overworked in companies purposefully to support the perks for older dead wood in the company. such that many young japanese now just want to leave the country. this of course exacerbates japan's serious problem of a top heavy age distribution: who is going to pay for the care of all of the older japanese?

    so robots caring for the elderly might be a funny tech article, and us techies might think of the japanese trying to get robots in all these domestic situations as laudable. but its actually the sign of a social sickness. the whole subject matter really speaks of some very serious social problems japan has, that are only going to get worse, unless japan makes some difficult choices, and soon

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by royallthefourth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the elderly hoarde the power in corporations and in society's rules such that the young can't get a foothold. young workers are underpaid and overworked in companies purposefully to support the perks for older dead wood in the company.

      Sounds similar enough to the United States. Here, the unemployment rate for age group 20-24 is more than twice that of the 50-54 year old crowd.(http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea13.htm) Even after they find jobs, they'll make far less money (adjusted for inflation) than their older counterparts made at the same age. Almost nobody in the younger group will ever have a job that offers a pension.

      Things are chugging along well enough for most people here, but as the trend continues this will be a become a big problem and the legitimacy of the people who are pulling the levers will continue to decline.

    2. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Interesting

      so robots caring for the elderly might be a funny tech article, and us techies might think of the japanese trying to get robots in all these domestic situations as laudable. but its actually the sign of a social sickness. the whole subject matter really speaks of some very serious social problems japan has, that are only going to get worse, unless japan makes some difficult choices, and soon

      Only subtly different issues between the Japanese and say, the US. We both have an aging demographic. Given the entitlements both countries (and a host of others, I'm not sure anyone really has the answer) give to the elderly - and given the costs involved in taking care of the aged, we're both looking for some hurt. You can see this at any nursing home in the US. Virtually all of the careworkers are immigrants working at unsustainably low wage levels. A care attendant is never going to make a terribly healthy wage. It's above minimum wage to be sure, but there is very little room for advancement and it's essentially a physical job. As you get older, say in your late 50's or 60's it gets harder to lift and move the sedentary whales in your care.

      Much has been made about how this 'service industry' is going to be the economic lifeline since we've trashed everything below Stock Market manipulator and politician, but it doesn't really work for most folks.

      To put it into a more historical (as opposed to an hysterical) context - in the past (pre Medicare / Medicaid in the US), the elderly often died in poverty and it's attendant misery. You got sick and bam, you dead. Now, we take care of hugely complex chronically ill patients for decades in Medicaid / Medicare funded nursing homes. Funding for Medicaid nursing home patients is typically 30 - 50% of a state's Medicaid budget (Medicaid for those of an un USasian persuasion is a jointly state and Federal funded healthcare system for indigent / poor people. It has turned into a middle class nursing home entitlement since nobody, but nobody can afford nursing home care otherwise). In the upcoming years as budgets get stretched further, expect to see this issue played out in the US. We have a couple of options - continue funding nursing homes like we have, to the short term detriment of everyone else or change the social contract some how so we don't aggressively treat the elderly or more likely, just muddle on and make up everything as we go.

      And robots aren't going to help a bunch.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by commodore64_love · · Score: 2

      >>>move the sedentary whales in your care.

      If I had to care for a heavy person, I'd put them on a mandatory diet until they dropped to a reasonable level (like 120-140 pounds) that I could lift. IN fact - at that point most people would probably be able to lift themselves and not need so much help (other than balance-assistance).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by vakuona · · Score: 2

      Um, no. The solution is to manage the population down gently. Japan is pretty much falling off a cliff population wise. That is not a good thing because the population becomes too imbalanced. You cannot have too many older, non productive needing care without creating serious problems. It would be all "good" if people were perfectly healthy and productive until they were aged 90, then just dropped dead. However, people become a net drain on society at some point, and it's usually OK if there are more than enough young workers to do their bit, and help the elderly, and have an overall positive outcome. But a population drop like the one Japan will face is pretty catastrophic, and has so many really bad implications.

    5. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

      absolutely true. but while this is a serious problem in the usa (and other industrialized countries), in japan, it is THE defining social problem of this era. the "gerokleptocracy" is exacerbated in japan by a lack of immigration. the usa complains about mexican immigration and europe complains about muslim immigration, but in japan, the problem is no nurses for a top heavy society age-wise. it puts some perspective on american and european complaints about immigration

      if as a society you have fewer children and you live longer, you are going to have serious financial problems caring for your older generations. immigration is one way to ameliorate the problem, as japan better learn, and soon

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    6. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by jdgeorge · · Score: 2

      the elderly hoarde the power in corporations and in society's rules such that the young can't get a foothold. young workers are underpaid and overworked in companies purposefully to support the perks for older dead wood in the company.

      Sounds similar enough to the United States. Here, the unemployment rate for age group 20-24 is more than twice that of the 50-54 year old crowd.(http://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea13.htm) Even after they find jobs, they'll make far less money (adjusted for inflation) than their older counterparts made at the same age. Almost nobody in the younger group will ever have a job that offers a pension.

      Mmmm... Almost nobody in the US today who has a non-union job has a pension. It's all 401Ks and IRAs.

      Things are chugging along well enough for most people here, but as the trend continues this will be a become a big problem

      Yes.

      and the legitimacy of the people who are pulling the levers will continue to decline.

      Huh? In the US, the lever pullers are elected. Love them or hate them, they are just as legitimate as the citizens who vote for them.

    7. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by BZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > In the US, the lever pullers are elected.

      No, they're not. Figureheads are elected. The lever pullers are for the most part the career bureaucrats and the lobbyists.

      The last time we had an elected official seriously trying to change how the bureaucracy worked his name was Joe McCarthy. No one particularly enjoyed that, so no one has tried since.

    8. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 2

      The elderly Japanese have the deepest pockets on earth. Japan has the highest savings of almost any country, and most Japanese, particularly elderly, are frugal. Did I mention they are very self-sufficient, grounded, and family oriented, too. Compared to nomadic Americans who retire as strangers to their communities, the elderly Japanese look secure. Of course, that is changing, and there is no telling what will happen when their young grow old and poor. Uh, I guess there is inheritance. Then maybe their youngs' young. Oh, the youth are not having kids? Then I guess Korea will inherit Japan.

    9. Re:there's a deeper backstory here. 2 things: by royallthefourth · · Score: 3, Informative

      You do realize that a significant portion of 20-24 year olds are unemployed because they go to school, right? Yours isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison.

      Students and others who aren't looking for full-time work aren't counted as part of the labor force, so they don't weigh in the unemployment rate. It's a valid comparison.

  3. Re:Cut the price by Chapter80 · · Score: 4, Funny

    At something like $1000/unit, I bet these people would be singing a different tune.

    I dunno. I couldn't get my 78 year old Dad to use a FREE Roomba Robot Vacuum Cleaner or a FREE Tom Tom GPS. But he has 5 AOL accounts.

    Old people and technology don't mix.

  4. Re:Cut the price by mysidia · · Score: 2

    I dunno. I couldn't get my 78 year old Dad to use a FREE Roomba Robot Vacuum Cleaner or a FREE Tom Tom GPS. But he has 5 AOL accounts.

    Someone bought the Roomba and GPS for him, so he doesn't appreciate their value.

    AOL accounts are worthless, so their value is easy to appreciate

  5. Fair enough by starfishsystems · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "We want humans caring for us, not machines"

    Fair enough. Health care is not a place for elaborate gimmicks.

    Of course we've developed all sorts of devices which improve health care. Thermometers, for example, take away subjective guesswork. Monitoring instruments allow effective and economical observation of acute-care patients, at least insofar as various simple measurable symptoms are concerned.

    All that is great. Bedside light switches are great, for that matter. And $100,000 goes a long way when buying equipment of that kind.

    Now consider a medical device whose substantial function is to look somewhat like a living being. This device does not provide care. Except in cases of fairly advanced dementia, nobody is fooled. Its monitoring ability, if any, is no better than existing devices. Very considerable work is needed to provide a suitable environment for a mobile robot.

    In short, it's a solution looking for a problem. I get that. I managed a robotics research lab for 12 years. We're always on the lookout for possible applications of our research. Sometimes we overreach ourselves. This seems to be one of those times.

    --
    Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
  6. Said simply... by astern · · Score: 2

    DUH... OF COURSE?

    Japanese society can come up with great ideas, but a lot of times major ideas are not thought through all the way. This was one of those ideas, it was innovation for innovations sake and didn't really solve the problem of too many seniors and not enough facilities to take care of them. I mean, how much human care could $100,000 have provided to an entire senior center? Economically it didn't even make sense.

    A basic tenant of human care is the human interaction part of it. People (yes, we're talking about people here! Seniors are still people!) still need human interaction and care that no robotic platform will ever provide. Full stop. Never.

    --
    If the world isn't beating a path to your door you're doing something wrong.
  7. They're going about this backwards by Aqualung812 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Use the robots to free up staff, let the human staff take care of the elderly. Have more automation in test results, checking on patients that are unconscious, filling meds, etc.

    I'm sure their is a list of things the people in the hospitals hate to do that are boring, repeatable, and don't involve a patient directly. Put the robots there.

    --
    Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
  8. The current technology is too poor by Animats · · Score: 2

    Mobile robots just aren't very good yet. But progress, after decades of frustration, is now rapid. Willow Garage is making real progress. Their mobile robot can already fold towels, starting from a pile of randomly placed towels. When it can change a bed, they'll have something useful.

    My guess is that the killer app for this will be a mobile robot for hotels that can clean a room and reset it for the next occupant. Give this ten years.

  9. Terminators by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    > In Japan, robots are friendly helpers, not Terminators.

    At least, for now.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Terminators by sznupi · · Score: 2

      That could be one of the solutions to "too much elderly"...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  10. The BBC got it right... by specialguy92 · · Score: 2

    The headline of the BBC article about this story: No, robot: Japan's elderly fail to welcome their robot overlords source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12347219

    --
    I can never spell "recursion" correctly on Google
  11. Re:Old People by sznupi · · Score: 2

    The obvious thing to do is put robots in nurseries, daycare centers, kindergartens, primary school, etc. (with their staff going to elderly care)

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  12. Too limited by Necron69 · · Score: 2

    The current state of the art in robotics is far too limited. If they could build a robot that could cook, clean, do laundry/dishes, and help you get dressed, I'm sure they would be more popular.

    Think of the Will Smith movie version of "I, Robot" where the robot cooks an apple pie from scratch. That's what you need.

    Necron69

  13. Re:Well by radtea · · Score: 2

    outside corruption

    There's your problem. You are reifying a homogenous, intollerant, ethno-racist culture and saying that it will be "corrupted" by external influences, as opposed to "diluted" or "enhanced". You've simply assumed without argument that the homogenous, xenophobic culture of Japan is superior to everything outside it, by some standard. I am left wondering what that standard is.

    I have no doubt that local cultures will persist despite homogenization. I come from a nation of mongrels, and we are still quite distinct, even from our neighbours to the south. Don't underestimate the robustness of local cultures, or the weakness of cultures that have to close themselves off from "corrupting" outside influences to maintain themselves.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.