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Debian 6.0 Released In GNU/Linux, FreeBSD Flavors
itwbennett writes "After two years of work, the Debian Project has announced the release of Debian 6.0. 'There are many goodies in Debian 6.0 GNU/Linux, not the least of which is the new completely free-as-in-freedom Linux kernel, which no longer contains firmware modules that Debian developers found troublesome,' says blogger Brian Proffitt. And in addition to Debian GNU/Linux, Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is introduced as a technology preview. 'Debian GNU/kFreeBSD will port both a 32- and 64-bit PC version of the FreeBSD kernel into the Debian userspace, making them the first Debian release without a Linux kernel,' says Proffitt. 'The Debian Project is serious about the technology preview label, though: these FreeBSD-based versions will have limited advanced desktop features.' The release notes and installation manual have been posted, and installation images may be downloaded right now via bittorrent, jigdo, or HTTP."
FUCK YEAH!
I used to run NetBSD on an old PP Mac booted from a zip drive in the nineties. It was running great but since then I haven't looked at it again. I know that the 3 free BSDs (open-, free- and net-) are security audited and support old hardware very well. But I wonder what advantages the kernel itself brings. So my potentially stupid questionis:
What's the advantage of running Debian with a BSD kernel instead of linux?
Thanks to all the involved people, we have another cornerstone of the Free Software.
This looks like a solid release. I only use stable for as long as it takes for the new queue to start start dumping back in Sid but I appreciate the hard work that has gone into this.
And the new artwork really rocks. I was shocked to see plymouth working out of the box with my nvidia card. The consistency from grub to kde launch is really stunning and makes the whole bootup feel seamless.
I'm a Ubuntu user, but I know where it comes from. Debian has been the dream operating system of mine for ages. Easy to install thousands of packages, stable, safe, etc. The only trouble is, when I first tried to install it in 2007, I couldn't get it to work with my wireless card. Ubuntu just worked. I'm going to guess that it wouldn't work now either; my wireless card is one of those Intel ones with the locked up firmware so that I don't start spamming the airwaves... (If I recall correctly the software is ipw2200, or similar.)
Anyway, one thing I note from the press release, is that it is still including OpenOffice.org 3.2.1. I wonder when they'll get LibreOffice (Ubuntu will get it in the 11.4 release).
Great job Debian!
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Squeeze has significantly higher minimal install requirements than Lenny, to the point it wouldn't fit on my Dockstar or my Dt360. So if you are using Debian because it's small and light, don't upgrade.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It's interesting to note, that while Debian has traditionally supported more CPU microarchitectures than any other mainstream GNU+Linux distribution out there, they have decided to officially stop supporting multiple microarchitectures with the release of Squeeze. The dropped architectures are alpha, hppa, and arm, the latter of which is replaced by the new "Embedded" ABI of ARM, which Debian calls armel.
Although kfreebsd-i386 and kfreebsd-amd64 have been added, these are not true new CPU microarchitectures in and of themselves, as they are compiled to standard x86 and x86_64 respectively, but obviously with the fairly radical change of not using Linux at all with a different GNU libc requiring all packages to be recompiled. This is the same situation as we have traditionally seen in the never-officially-released hurd-i386 port of Debian (which makes sense to call Debian GNU I suppose, as the Hurd kernel is part of the GNU project already) which seems to be missing so far with Debian 6.0 so far, pending a decision to potentially drop it as well.
All in all, amazing work by all in the Debian project. It remains an incredibly impressive feat that such a project can have no corporate oversight or ownership yet maintain such an impressively influential, relevant, and useful place in the operating system ecosystem. Even with dropping a couple of architectures, Debian still supports more computer types than most people even know exists, and continues to provide package updates that many many other operating systems base their repositories from. Also wonderful to see the website be updated!!
GNU/Hurd has never been released in Stable. It is available in Unstable, but isn't complete enough for them to upgrade to Testing and Stable yet. GNU/kFreebsd however, is now an official Stable release with Squeeze (6.0).
Are they mad at Debian? The thing that annoys most on Linux are the gnu-parts in the userland. Why should someone with a nice and well-designed bsd-userland use the gnu-tools instead?
Or is this some kind of âoewe can do itâ?
So if you had to run Linux, you wouldn't?
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Is this not one of the fastest Debian release cycles?
Not really. It's been two years since Lenny, which was two years after Etch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#Release_history
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Can you provide an actual example of Debian fans complaining in the way you indicate, or is it all in your imagination?
Debian tends to be the way it is because Debian users (and builders) like it that way. Of course they do end up being rather smug as well, but complaints about those who choose to use lesser distributions are notably absent.
Squeeze has significantly higher minimal install requirements than Lenny, to the point it wouldn't fit on my Dockstar or my Dt360.
I'm running squeeze on a dockstar right now by booting from a USB stick. Some smart people made it easy for the rest of us.
Never shake hands with a man you meet in a fertility clinic.
What a load of bs.
I started with Debian as total Linux noob back when Woody was the official release. I've stayed because Debian stable is so stable, and because the APT system is about as good as installers get. I've never had to wonder whether something wasn't working because it was buggy, or because I lacked the requisite knowledge to configure it correctly. That alone made learning Linux much, much easier and far more straightforward. I'd used a couple of other distros before I heard of Debian, but even simple things in the gui didn't work on them because of bugs and I got very frustrated with them. I never knew if any problem I ran across was a bug or because I'd done something stupid. With Debian I could know with a high degree of certainty that the problems I encountered were my own stupidity, not someone elses.
Debian was a breath of fresh air compared to all the bugs in other distros and Windows. I've played with Ubuntu a few times, but always abandoned it because it's not gotten any better over the years. It's always buggy, buggy, buggy. If I wanted a buggy OS I would have stayed with Windows. And, I find fewer bugs and newer software in the vast majority of cases in Debian testing and unstable than I do in Ubuntu.
"while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
You should be aware that Debian is not allowed to use the trademark "Firefox" and also have the ability to apply patches such as security fixes(1). It's not called "Iceweasel" out of anything but necessity. You think this is a Debian-specific issue? Well, no, it's actually a major problem for all other distributors as well(2).
1
2
So the links are 5 years old, but the issues surrounding the trademarks haven't changed or gone away. Distributions shipping "Firefox" have abrogated their ability (and responsibility) to be able to apply changes and security updates to the software without the explicit concent of Mozilla Corporation.
Not exactly free software when it comes on those terms, is it?
Regarding the kernel, I assume you're referring to the non-free firmware removal. Maybe you haven't been fully informed that the non-free firmware was actually removed from the upstream kernel sources as well. As a result, the Debian kernels are far from "non-standard", they are standard!
Regards,
Roger
[FFS Slashdot, it's 2011 and you still can't handle UTF-8!]
I'm amazed that they stuck this release freeze out long enough to get the RC bugs for the testing release down to what looks like the lowest since the graph began tracking testing in 2004 -- I would like to believe that this means squeeze will end up being the most stable/reliable release so far.
Now that the release is done and the freeze is over, an upgrade of the Linux kernel (from 2.6.32 to 2.6.37) in unstable should be soon to follow. Also, Firefox (probably 3.5.9 -> 4) and LibreOffice (OOO 3.2.1 -> LO 3.3).
Ask me about repetitive DNA
I'm guessing that there are more developers interested in maintaining the m68k port than the Alpha port. Or at least that's how that typically goes. Unless you've got a strange OS like NetBSD which is obsessed with running on absolutely every possible architecture from mainframes to wrist watches, some platforms tend to not have enough people with the hardware and interest to keep updating the branch.
What's the advantage of running Debian with a BSD kernel instead of linux?
If you want to make money, and don't want to contribute back to the free software economy, its easier with a BSD license than a GPL license. Other than that...
That's a somewhat FUD'ish response. There are plenty of BSD users who contribute back. I'd say that one advantage is that you don't have a 3rd party (FSF) dictating terms to you, in particular a 3rd party that is on a quasi-religious campaign. I know the FSF claims otherwise, but they are not the free'er license. Restriction are restrictions, whether or not those restrictions have a socially beneficial goal and are altruistic. As GPL v3 introduced some controversy and drama, what will GPL v4 introduce. Some may not want to have to deal with it.
:-), but if a church or government was compelling you to do good and altruistic things would you consider that freedom? Why is being compelled by the FSF any different?
Now I realize some GPL fans are probably feeling their emotions rise and some zealots have already stopped reading and have started composing their flames
Wait, is this the reason that when I tried to upgrade Firefox "like normal" on ubuntu I couldn't do it without major new package component upgrades? I'm the arctypical nervous newbie, and I went to go get an update, and got back messages that it wouldn't update without other new pieces.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Wow, in all the years I used Debian, I barely ever used a window manager. To the point that when you sai d"here are some screenshots", I was expecting a page full of screenshots of the command line (which is where I literally spent 99.9% of my twelve years with Debian). Seeing Debian used with a window manager like that almost feels like going to a strip club and seeing your sister come out on the stage!
This is one probable reason. If there's a security problem, then the distributor has the following options:
- wait until Mozilla releases a new version containing the security fix [but this may contain other, unwanted, changes]
- backport the security fix, but then get explicit approval from Mozilla before being allowed to make the release [may take too long]
- backport the security fix immediately, but don't wait for approval from Mozilla [but requires renaming to something other than "Firefox" to be compliant with the trademarks].
Additionally, Firefox and its related components are so complex and intertwined than it's often simply not possible to backport a security fix. In this situation the only choice is to upgrade everything to the latest version.
From Debian's point of view, you don't really want to push major new versions into a stable release, and especially for a security update. You want a minimal, targeted, testable fix which fixes a single issue only. That's one of the reasons why Debian chose to rename "Firefox" to "Iceweasel", because otherwise it is simply not permitted to release a security update.
It's also worth pointing out that distributors such as Debian also make changes to software to better integrate it into their system. "Firefox" would prohibit that as well, which is one reason why it's very much a standalone application that doesn't integrate properly into any desktop environment, and reimplements a whole bunch of the common functionality they provide.
Regards,
Roger
For the past few years I've been working on going the other way around from Debian/BSD. My system has a Linux kernel but a whole lot of BSD binaries (I've replaced GNU coreutils, tar, gzip, findutils, init, etc. with BSD versions).
Not everything can be replaced, but a lot of the userland works pretty well with BSD versions: some programs stupidly assume GNU tools and need to be patched, but it's been working fine.
I got really excited when I read this at first, but then I realized it's probably going to have many of the same bugs that the FreeBSD kernel has surrounding the various subsystems (jails) and drivers (recent Intel ethernet crashing, USB, etc. that still don't work for the better part of a year), as well as crippling limitations as it regards adaptability on filesystems (ext*, NTFS, NFS - all limiting) and the like.
i wonder if they managed to get ZFS to work fully with the userland utilities written? That would be the biggest point that might pull me over to give it a go.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
In the post scox-scam era, licensing is such a BFD. I have to wonder if there will any complications over conflicts between BSD and GPL licensing.
Huh? I'm still waiting for 5.0 to finish compiling!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I find GNU Make generally superior to legacy Make implementations, especially if I am avoiding the autotools.For example, I can set up completely automated header detection and tracking, not needing "make dep" runs or the equivalent.
The GNU project's 'less' is my preferred pager, despite the fact that I don't use most of it's advanced features.
And then generally I prefer to have the GNU userland because mst of the utilities have extended features, that various scripts may be taking advantage of (the whole reason why having a 'gawk' application, or 'gsed' application is still relatively common on BSD systems). If I'm going to install GNU awk as 'gawk', and GNU make as 'gmake' anyway, why not just install them as 'awk' and 'make' and be done with it?
The documentation for GNU is generally just fine, as long as you reference documentation with 'info' rather than 'man', (info will display the TexInfo manual if present, and falls back on the man page automatically).
Of course I'd also be very interested to know about what you find incomplete about the GNU userland. (If nothing else it tells me to look for versions of those utilities in my distro. It is surprising hard to find any information trying to directly compare BSD and GNU userlands.
Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
What are we supposed to do with our old Alphas? Just set them on fire? Not that I have one any more.
I think that's the point. As much as I like diving into old hardware, at some point I started getting rid of it because of space limitations and the simple fact that it's not feasible, even with new distro support, to do anything of consequence on it that can't be done cheaper (read: electric power) and faster on even the wimpiest of several year old cast off (free or nearly) servers and/or laptops.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Thank you again, Debian team, for providing the most stable (in the no-unexpected-changes sense of the word) distro I know of.
One question though:
Grub 2 as default - for the love of all things good, why?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
If you're going to drop Alpha, why not drop m68k?
They already did.
There comes a point where the slow march of software "bloat" gets too much for older hardware and/or there is no longer sufficiant porters to keep the port in what debian considers a releasable state. It's sad but that is the way things go in a project like debian.
Arm was a special case because they kept support for the majority of arm devices but did so through a new port due to some serious deficiancies in the old arm linux port. It was always planned that offering two different arm ports in the same release was a transitional state that would only last one release.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register