Why Debian Matters More Than Ever

Julie188 writes "If you look at the feature list for Debian 6, released on February 6, it's easy to be underwhelmed. This is especially true when measuring Debian against its offspring, like Ubuntu. Debian doesn't get much credit, and its become trendy for industry pundits to claim it's become irrelevant. But it's more relevant than ever. If you're using Ubuntu (or Linux Mint, or Mepis...), you're really using Debian with some enhancements. According to a presentation given recently by Debian Project Leader (DPL) Stefano Zacchiroli, only 7% of Ubuntu is directly derived from upstream projects, Canonical's projects, or other non-Debian sources. Of the rest, 74% of Ubuntu is rebuilt Debian packages, and 18% are patched and rebuilt Debian packages."

Comments

Since when?

[Tubal-Cain]

Debian doesn't get much credit, and its become trendy for industry pundits to claim it's become irrelevant.

News to me. Who's calling it irrelevant?

Re:Since when?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously nobody important. Ubuntu is more like extended Debian family. They even contribute back to Debian. Heck, I even use the Wine packages from an Ubuntu PPA (Lucid) unmodified. Would it make sense to say that Ubuntu is irrelevant if Kubuntu became a big deal? No. This is just stirring up an anthill.

Re:Since when?

[garyisabusyguy]

If anything it makes me question 'industry pundits' who fail to recognize the layered way that open source projects are able to build on each other.

Like saying a plant is irrelevant to the flowers that grow on it

Re:Since when?

[clang_jangle]

Who's calling it irrelevant?

You know, that guy who always fails to get his wireless working in Debian, then downloads Ubuntu and goes on a rant about how everything should Just Work like Ubuntu did for him that one time on that one machine...

Re:Since when?

[foxed]

Steven Vaughan-Nichols is calling it "no longer as important as it once was". See http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/the-new-debian-linux-irrelevant/8218

Re:Since when?

[countertrolling]

Somebody named Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols the third. Should be working at the DMV

Re:Since when?

[icebike]

DOH!
I save my best spelling for those who pay me.

I thought it looked wrong when I typed it, but couldn't remember the right spelling. Thanks for the reminder.

Re:Since when?

[Anonymous Coward]

agreed. debian is probably the most successful linux distribution ever, and i'd probably turn to freebsd before another linux distro.

sadly, one often hears a sense on the debian mailing lists, etc, that users (and even debian developers) would like to make debian slicker and more appealing to desktop users (more like ubuntu, or mint, for example). i consider this (especially the infighting) to be a huge mistake. ubuntu is just "the externalization of all the tweaks suitable for desktop users", and I consider this to be "The Right (tm)" solution to the "how best to please everyone all the time" problem (aka the "world domination syndrom") that most distros suffer from.

i really appreciate debian as a solid foundation. fwiw, i usually install a base system and then add on from there.

debian, and all the derivative distros should work together while supporting these types of forks... ubuntu should just be a repository of exactly/only the packages that are tweaked or added above and beyond the debian packages. it should be reasonable to just add an ubuntu repo to my sources file and do an upgrade to get to a typical ubuntu.

Re:Since when?

[KiloByte]

Say who? If you're going to call others irrelevant, shouldn't you first have some modicum of relevancy yourself?

Re:Since when?

[aztektum]

Who?

Re:Since when?

[JustOK]

many of the ones using a broadcom chip can't get online to talk about their experiences

Re:Since when?

[sg_oneill]

Oh absolutely. I recently came to realise just how much I took Debian for granted when I had to set up a Django site with Post-GIS on a CentOS (5.5) box.

Out of the box Centos only supported Python 2.4(!) and if you update it, you break everything. So trying to install a parallell version, I tried to use the EPEL repository to install Python 2.6. All good and fine until I realised I had to recompile my own pysocopg2 driver.

Then I realised Postgres and PostGIS where way too old for django. Could I update? Nope! the 8.4 version in epel didnt have any obvious version of PostGIS.

Giving up at wasting 2 days of my clients time recompiling things, trying to patch broken scripts, fighting busted versions of upgraded non supported software and pulling hair out, I badgered the host to install Debian squeeze for me (thanks Rackforce!) and they did.

Heres how I then did all this without pain on Squeeze:

root@debian:~# apt-get install postgresql-8.4-postgis
root@debian:~# apt-get install libapache2-mod-passenger
root@debian:~# apt-get install python-django python-django-south

And thats that. Server set up in 4 easy commands. No compiling, no complicated patch files, everything automatically and intelligently downloaded, installed, and checked for conflicts by the OS.

You'll note it looks like I have missed some things. Not true, apt-get knows installing an apache mod without apache is silly and did it for me, likewise installing postgis without the server itself is also silly. Everything done, checked for sanity, and so on.

Now of course I know YUM can do all that too, but thats no good to me, when the repository is that old its got 7 year old language distros as its cutting edge.

Its amazing to think that once upon a time Debian was considered behind the times.

See why I love this operating system?

Re:Since when?

[cgenman]

Steven Vaughan-Nichols is calling it "no longer as important as it once was"

He should know. He's on ZDnet.

I should know, I'm commenting on Slashdot.

Re:Since when?

[afabbro]

Its called a straw man.

Set up false claims then demolish them in a fit of peek.

It's easy to POKE holes in your argument...

Re:Since when?

[zr-rifle]

What has this to do with the desktop? He is talking about CentOS (a distro commonly used on servers) and Django (a Web framework).

Re:Since when?

[hairyfeet]

Well good Lord, look who the guy who wrote the article in TFA is listening too, fricking Stephen J Nichols! Read some of his past "work" and it is pretty obvious he is a professional Linux troll. All he does is come up with one outlandish theory after another, all designed to stir up the shit and score page views no matter how crazy.

If you read Nichols history it can be summed up as thus: "X (insert Linux distro or Linux itself) is dying" "it is all a conspiracy by (insert usually MSFT but sometimes Apple or someone else) to kill Linux!" or "Because of X (insert product he's shilling for) THIS year will be the year of Linux on the desktop!"

He is just the Linux equivalent of Paul Thurott, professional Windows troll. The same way Thurott can be counted on to say anything that makes Windows debates epic troll threads with his total bullshit (Vista is great AND low resource? Really Paul?) the same can be said of Nichols and Linux. Everyone knows Debian isn't going anywhere, hell they've outlasted just about everyone that started at the same time for the love of Pete. This is just Nichols stirring up the shit, and the guy who wrote TFA either took the trollbait or was desperate for some page views.

Re:Since when?

[Terrasque]

You might want to have a look at pip and virtualenv.

In many cases, it lets you largely ignore what python-stuff is installed on the server, that you don't have root access, what package manager it use, and how outdated everything is.

It's still a bit of compiling going on, so you would need source packages for python and posgres (for pysocopg2) - but overall it's considerably easier (also, perfect for testing new versions of packages)

Example, to replicate a set of packages:

pip freeze > reqs.txt #dumps installed packages to the text file

pip install -UE newvirtenvfolder -r reqs.txt

and to activate the new virtenv (which is just a folder that you point env variables to):
source newvirtenvfolder/bin/activate

Re:Since when?

[slackbheep]

And that's why it hasn't happened, You see the audience? ;)

debian is still my choice.

[drunkennewfiemidget]

I've sampled the others, and it just keeps working for me.

When other distros let me down -- even the debian based ones (like Ubuntu failing miserably over and over on my wife's netbook) -- debian, with the desktop set of packages installed, works beautifully.

Re:debian is still my choice.

[SadButTrue]

Gentoo is easily the most clever distro name.

You can't just count packages and draw conclusions

[melted]

You can't just count packages and draw conclusions from counts. Some of the packages haven't been updated in years. Some are only used by like five users on the planet. Some are so buggy they won't even run.

Weigh them by how many people install and use them, and you've got something to talk about, though.

analogy

[hackstraw]

ubuntu is to debian as firefox is to gecko

Re:analogy

[grumbel]

That is how it should be, but that is not how it is. Debian is not some generic distribution-construction-kit, but instead Debian is a complete normal independent Linux distribution and that is exactly where I see the problems. Ubuntu, just as the other distributions based on Debian, isn't a real Debian with a few extra packages installed, but a completely different thing, having its own complete package dependency tree that is incompatible to that of Debian. You might have luck installing Ubuntu packages on Debian or visa versa, but you might as well have not. There is no Debian base system to which developers can develop their packages that will then automatically be compatible with all Debian based distribution, you still have to build every package for every distribution.And thats really the crux, instead of having a unified base with which you can reach a large part of Linux users, you have heavy fragmentation. See for example the whole Launchpad auto builder infrastructure, great for building stuff for Ubuntu, but wanna build something for another Debian based distro or even Debian itself? Tough luck, that stuff is Ubuntu only.

At this point I would really welcome it when Debian would work towards becoming a proper base system for other distributions to build on in a proper way, not the kind of hacky one that is practiced today.

Re:analogy

[TBBle]

Ubuntu is to Debian as Stalin is to Lenin?

Re:analogy

[TBBle]

I think that'd be a terrible idea. The reason Debian works as a distribution base is because it's a complete, centralised, internally consistent and _working_ distribution guided by principles of end-user (admin) choice and unusually strict guidelines for package quality and interoperability, which make it fairly easy to drop new packages into the mix from random sources, mix-and-match packages already in the pool, and pre-decide things for your specific user base.

And you most certainly can build packages that'll work on every Debian-derived system, with a bit of care, and providing you don't need to rely on any packages whose ABIs have been forked downstream or have simply aged and been discarded from the repositories.

Sure, if you build something on Debian/unstable, you have no expectation that it'll work on Debian/stable, but if you build on the oldest distribution you care to support, a litte bit of effort with your dependancies should get you working on nearly-as-old distributions from other distributors, and you'll only be stopped from working on newer distributions when they don't provide a library ABI you need, in which case you need to build a version that works with _that_ ABI and so on.

Except where downstream distributions have created their own rules for shared library package naming, of course.

Re:analogy

[basotl]

I would say a better analogy would be:
Ubuntu is to Debian as Flock is to Firefox.

I've never run "pure" Debian...

[IANAAC]

Mainly, I've just used Ubuntu and Studio 64. Sure, I realize they're Debian-based. I dont really make the distinction.

I have, however, read MANY comments on the evils of the very bits of default software that make me like Ubuntu.

re Debian Squeeze

[freddieb]

I have Squeeze running on a desktop and my home server. It is excellent. I have a Ubuntu desktop also. I really see no major difference except with Debian you don't have to update every two days to keep current. The long release cycle is excellent for servers. The new version has the latest bind, php 5.3, etc. Seems really current to me. It also plays Sirus player, compiz, software-center, just like debian. 2.6.27 compiled fine and runs like a top.

Debian still supports PowerPC

[joeyadams]

Debian is one of the last major Linux distros still supporting PowerPC (along with Gentoo, Arch Linux PPC, and a few others). Ubuntu discontinued official PowerPC support in 2007, and Fedora did the same in 2010. I'm tempted to install Debian 6 on my Apple eMac, replacing Fedora 12 (which reached EOL a couple months ago).

Re:Debia what?

[Nemyst]

Is this supposed to be sarcastic?

Debian is not Ubuntu's grandparent, that's a really bad analogy. If anything, Ubuntu's a leech (a very pretty leech, yes) to Debian. It's more of a symbiotic relationship than a true leech, but Ubuntu would have a very hard time to move forward without Debian's foundation and the work done by Debian developers. Chances are a LOT of Debian updates find their way into Ubuntu, so when the former updates, the latter benefits from it.

If Debian died today all the sudden, Ubuntu wouldn't grind to a halt, but it'd be struggling to keep its pace.

Ubuntu and Debian - they need each other

[inflex]

A lot of people are upset that Ubuntu doesn't give back a lot to Debian in terms of packages/software/whatever, however what Ubuntu gives Debian (and indeed Linux) is a more approachable OS package as a whole, something more suitable to the non-geek, this is something that Linux/Debian have never really bothered with a lot while in the realm of genuine geeks but it's something that Ubuntu adds and which is greatly appreciated by people outside of the geek circle. So while you cannot measure Ubuntu's 'give back' in quantitative terms it is still giving a huge amount in other areas where advancements were sorely needed.

I don't see the problem with Ubuntu being a Debian based distro - isn't this what Debian or any other distro would want - a larger adoption rate? It's all GPL, it's not like licences are being broken.. or is the crying from a minority more to do with a bad case of sour-grapes?

Re:You can't just count packages and draw conclusi

[Anonymous Coward]

Popularity contest statistics for popularity-contest says that 99.76% of the almost hundred-thousand Debian users sending statistics back to the "popularity contest" have installed the application which gathers such statistics.

Re:why debian is irrelevant:

[Narcocide]

SNS (Shiny New Shit syndrome) is a very serious condition that can negatively impact the reliability of your computer.

Re:I love Debian

[eldepeche]

Debian cares, and it's their job to care. You should probably read the release notes before you upgrade between major versions.

I think the best way to draw attention to hardware that doesn't function without non-free drivers and firmware is to have a distribution that will take a principled stand against including such software. That way, you can try to install Debian on a computer and know exactly what is supported by free software.

Re:Gentoo?

[eldepeche]

I use Gentoo on my desktop. It works great, but it's kind of a pain in the ass if you don't upgrade packages regularly. I just moved, and I was only using my laptop for about 6 weeks. When I tried to upgrade, I got all kinds of dependency hell. It wasn't too hard to get everything resolved, but it seemed unnecessary.

Re:I run Ubuntu because it installs - Debian doesn

[HPUXCowboy]

As noted in the article, Debian has never been a distribution that was built for the masses. Yes, some detailed knowledge of the hosting hardware is required. But this is nothing new. It's always been a distro for the more savvy user I.E. your down and dirty geeks and serious developers/administrators.

While some complain loudly about the release schedule (?) that Debian is famous for, it is this very attention to detail that makes each new release of Debian one the most stable in the Linux world.

While Debian does not ooze with the WOW! factor like Ubuntu and many others, it is Debian that enables these other distros to prosper. Without the solid platform furnished by Debian the many derivative distros would would find it very difficult at best and nearly impossible at worst to maintain their aggressive release schedules.

I use Ubuntu. It seems to have problems getting along with the sound hardware on my machine (something I never saw while using pure Debian) but, overall it's a good distro. However, if you have experienced the "pure Debian" distro there is no doubt regarding Ubuntu's ancestry.

Quiet! You Fools!

[havardi]

Let Debian do it's collectivist work in the shadows, and Canonical can provide the capitalist facade that keeps Them at bay. . . This arrangement might be its only hope for survival. Voluntary virtual-subjugation? Since data, unlike food, can be copied endlessly-- this might be a pretty good arrangement. Until it isn't, anyway.

Re:You can't just count packages and draw conclusi

[icebraining]

How the hell do the other 0.24% report them?

Debian: more relevant than Steven Vaughan-Nichols

[DougReed]

I use Ubuntu because it is the 'Apple' of Linux distributions. ... it just works... I even violate my Linux roots sometimes and configure stuff through the GUI. I think it is Steven Vaughan-Nichols who is not relevant. And it it were not for Debian, there would be no Ubuntu.

Yes, yes, I know that Red Hat works too, but it just doesn't DO anything. RPMs that won't install. An ugly incoherent out of date GUI. configured for security ... meaning you should consider yourself privileged that it actually lets you login.

debian is better for n00bs

[tonytraductor]

Personally, I don't understand why people claim that Ubuntu is more "user-friendly". I tried ubuntu for about a year before finally taking the dive into Debian (had used Fedora/RH for 8 years prior, but finally got tired of yum breaking stuff). Stuff broke on Ubuntu (not as much as Fedora!), and I wasted time fixing it. I installed Ubuntu for a few n00bs, friends who were tired of their virus/crash ridden XP, etc. They all became frustrated, because, well, stuff broke, and they didn't know how to fix it. Now, when my Mom got an old computer from a friend, a 400hmz PII with like 128mb ram, I installed Lenny on it for her. It's run great ever since, without a single problem (time to go update her to Squeeze, though). I've been using Debian on all my desktops now for about 2 years, upgraded to Squeeze last weekend. The most trivially easy, seamless upgrade ever. (can't be said of ubuntu's frantic release schedule, where every new silly snake release breaks more stuff). Nothing ever breaks in Debian. I haven't had a single software problem since making the move, and I can't imagine ever moving away, now. It's rock-solid, impregnable, and it just works. I don't get what's supposedly so "user-friendly" about Ubuntu. For one thing, I kind of agree with Tuomo Valkonen about "usability" anyway. Do what I want, only what I want, and stay out of the way. Ubuntu makes too many decisions for the user, and not always good ones (usually tying a ton of bloat together in "metapackages" in such fashion that you can't remove some useless crap like, say , cowsay, or something, without removing your entire window manager). Debian allows me to install what I need, precisely, no more no less. And for n00bs, it doesn't break and cause problems.

Re:I run Ubuntu because it installs - Debian doesn

[Hatta]

Indeed. Ubuntu comes from an African word meaning "can't install Debian".

This is how I see it.

[Beelzebud]

If Ubuntu disappeared tomorrow would the Debian team notice?

If Debian disappeared tomorrow would the Ubuntu team notice?

Now ask yourself. Who exactly isn't relevant?

Re:This is how I see it.

[u17]

If you RTFS, you will note that basically 92% of Ubuntu packages are imported from Debian. Who do you think maintains them?

Re:Gentoo?

[gringer]

Gentoo is in very fine shape these days, I'm compiling it daily!

FTFY

Original: "Who the bloody hell cares about Debian"

[mmj638]

This summary is drawn from an opinion piece which was originally inspired by a presentation by Debian leader Stefano Zacchiroli in January called "Who the bloody hell cares about Debian".

Original presentation makes a solid case for why Debian is more important now than ever.

Stefano's blog post discussing the story behind the presentation is here. There is a link to the slides there and apparently video will be available soon.

Ubuntu

[Dennis Sheil]

Android aside, Ubuntu is far and away the most used Linux desktop. If you look at say, Wikipedia traffic analysis, Ubuntu has over twelve times the web users than the next closest competitor.

What does this mean? As GNOME was Ubuntu's desktop, it means a mass of new users for GNOME. I think this has been one of the main influences of Ubuntu. Linux has been on the server a long time, and people have been mucking with Apache on Linux and the like for a long time. But Ubuntu brought a lot of new users to the Linux desktop, and suddenly GNOME had a much wider user base than it did. This has exposed some bugs in GNOME and freedesktop.org applications, many of which have been patched. I have been mostly following the evince/poppler/cairo portion of this universe, and the influx of Ubuntu users has exposed bugs in all of these programs/libraries, many of which have been patched. Of course, Ubuntu has been moving somewhat away from Gnome to Unity, and it has already begun with Natty Narwhal.

My mum says...

[Beowulf878]

"this is obvious."

Since I put debian 6 on her laptop - the frequency of ubuntu updates annoyed her, and she refused to install them (windows failed her long ago - even without viruses the spyware slowed it to a crawl) - she thinks it matters a lot. And who am I to argue...?

I am slightly amused by all the insistence on its geek credentials. For the above installation I put the installation CD in and essentially pressed return until a working desktop came up. I admit I had to type 2 user names and passwords, but I didn't find it too onerous. For my other machines I might do other things - but that is me complicating matters and nothing inherently to do with debian. It seems all my hardware is so old now, it just works out of the box.

{Kindly refrain from posting "j00r m0m" jokes... heard them all before... really. Not a challenge, either.}

Re:As Ozzie would say

[afabbro]

Who the Fuck is Steven Vaughan-Nichols?

I have run Debian based systems for a very long time. Mepis, Mint, Kubuntu, and on and on. On my server, it's just pure straight stable Debian.

And just who are you? Why should we care what you run? Or about the fascinating history of your personal odyssey through Linux distributions?