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House Passes Amendment To Block Funds For Net Neutrality

Charliemopps sends this quote from the National Journal: "The House passed an amendment Thursday that would bar the Federal Communications Commission from using any funding to implement the network-neutrality order it approved in December. The amendment, approved on a 244-181 vote, was offered by Energy and Commerce Communications and Technology Subcommittee Chairman Greg Walden, R-Ore., to legislation that would fund government agencies for the rest of fiscal year 2011. Walden and other critics of the FCC's net-neutrality order argue it will stifle innovation and investment in broadband. "

68 of 393 comments (clear)

  1. Thank your neighborhood republican by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thank them again if years down the road you have to pay another $50 a month just so you can stream youtube and netflix to your computer.

    1. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by HermMunster · · Score: 2, Informative

      I swear to you, we have a bunch of nutjobs in the House. How on earth could these people know enough to make such a complex decision in such a short period of time? It's not possible. Most of them don't know the slightest thing about the internet, how it works, and what drives it. It baffles me to see them making such a statement.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    2. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by commodore6502 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Democrats did the same thing. How fast was that Bailout Bill passed? 20 days? I think the Stimulus Bill was rammed through even faster, within two weeks of the president taking the oath (in order to beat the Feb 11 Analog TV cutoff). That's 1500 billion spent in less than two months, for legislation none of them had time to read.

      It's about time people learn: Both Rep and Dems suck ass.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    3. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by kidgenius · · Score: 2

      Of course they have an idea.... See, the internet is like a series of tubes

    4. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by poity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Implying that by not allowing ISPs to charge Google or Netflix for disproportionate use of bandwidth, those ISPs would give up their pursuit and absorb the costs themselves rather than pass it on to subscribers. The "you'll be paying more money if we don't get Network Neutrality right now" is an unrealistic argument, a canard, I'd even call it FUD.

      You want a good argument for Network Neutrality, you can talk about providing an even playing field for new small media with little money and old entrenched conglomerates alike.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    5. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by QuoteMstr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The GOP is a monstrosity. As Brad Delong says, they "lie about everything all the time." More than that, though, every single Republican initiative exacerbates inequality, smashes our dignity, and adds to the sum of human misery. There are no exceptions. There are no moderates left in the Republican party. What remains is an organization dedicated to aristocracy, superstition, and the snuffing out of curiosity. This party is a scourge, and to see its members elected against and against forces one to doubt the fundamental goodness of human nature.

    6. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by sstamps · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is, though, that Google/Netflix aren't the ones "using" (as in "consuming") the bandwidth as those who are complaining about it claim. They are producers. The ones who are "using" (as in "consuming") the bandwidth are the ISPs' USERS, who are requesting the content from Google/Netflix. It doesn't make any sense to bill content providers for bandwidth consumed by users.

      Well, it does make sense if you look at it from a competitive angle.. one where the ISPs so complaining have a vested interest in competing content provider services.

      Google, Netflix, and everyone else pay for their access to the internet. They pay a LOT already. If every ISP who carries their content at the behest of the ISP's own users/consumers could charge an extra "fee" to carry "popular" content, then there wouldn't be any "popular" content, except from each particular ISP.

      This is why I believe that true "Net Neutrality" is where content providers and bandwidth providers should not be allowed to be the same entities -- they are simply an untenable conflict of interests waiting to happen. Indeed, this is why the internet grew explosively and prospered, because, for a long time, the bandwidth providers had little interest in content, and the old "walled garden" combo access/content providers died out like the dinosaurs they became (AOL/Prodigy/Compuserve/etc). That's all changed now. Companies like Comcast, Verizon, and AT&T want to go back to that model, which might be lucrative for them, but it impacts the freedom of their customers, and the free market overall.

      --
      -SS "Teach the ignorant, care for the dumb, and punish the stupid."
    7. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 2

      Not sure why you were modded Troll, but truer words were never spoken. The two party system has failed us yet again.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    8. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As much as I agree with you politically, you are way out of line coming to a tech site and calling the participants "neck bearded dweebs" To paraphrase one of my favorite movies, why not go jack off to some snowboarding videos and let us "dweebs" worry about keeping this whole internet thing up and running for douchebags like you.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    9. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by AHuxley · · Score: 4, Informative

      Re Please find an example of an ISP trying to charge content providers for "preferential" access.
      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/01/huge-isps-want-per-gb-payments-from-netflix-youtube.ars
      Pay up or risk an "internet brownout"...

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    10. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or the republican union busting bill that was proposed Friday, and they are trying to get it rammed through today. (In Wisconsin)

    11. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by Adrian+Lopez · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Disproportionate use of bandwidth" by Google and Netflix? What a joke.

      The fact is that Google and Netflix each pay their respective ISPs for all the bandwidth they use. What they *don't* pay for is the bandwidth their customers use, nor should they have to. If Google has a contract with ISP A and ISP A in turn has a contract with ISPs B and C, it's really not B and C's place to charge Google for that which is already covered by their contract with ISP A. Otherwise Google would have to sign contracts with the entire alphabet of ISPs to account for what you call their "disproportionate use of bandwidth", which I'm sure you know is bullshit.

      --
      "In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
    12. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by QuoteMstr · · Score: 2, Informative

      The word "dweeb" is telling. It confirms my theory that the GOP mindset is just aged and distilled schoolyard bullying.

    13. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by tendrousbeastie · · Score: 2

      So, we have them trying, but not actually doing.

      Surely, anyone who actually did for example impose a $x per GB cost to YouTube would pretty quickly find their network blocked by YouTube. How many customer's would they retain?

    14. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by skids · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most people already think both parties suck.

      It's why they don't vote.

      And it's a problem. What people need to learn is that they should pick the better party even if the difference is only marginal, and vote in that party's primaries to make that party better, and then do more than just vote to improve our aggregate level of intelligence when it comes to deciding who to give power to.

      Just sitting there and saying "everything sucks" isn't going to get you anywhere.

    15. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by hymie! · · Score: 2

      http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/11/comcast-tollbooth/

      “We are informed that within a week of Level 3’s announcement on Nov. 11 that it would be primary carrier for Netflix streaming video, Comcast informed Level 3 that Comcast would, for the first time, charge Level 3 a fee to reach Comcast’s customers who had requested any content carried by Level 3,” said Harold Feld, the legal director of Public Knowledge, one of the groups involved.

    16. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by AJH16 · · Score: 2

      A huge number will have 100% of their customers because they are functional monopolies. I have precisely one choice for high speed internet access where I live and I live in a city in upstate NY. Giving a monopoly the ability to choose what I can or can't access on the internet can only end badly for anyone other than the monopoly.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    17. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by lazn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      no. vote for anyone other than those two parties.

      Till we actually throw the bums out they will continue to be the bumholes they are.

      Vote libertarian, green, independent, heck communist if you must. Just get everyone to NEVER AGAIN vote for a Rep or Dem and perhaps we can change things.

    18. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bullshit. The netflix angle is just a distraction and we ae all pretty sick and tired of fools like you who see that as a Net Neutrality issue.

      Comcast isnt trying to charge netflix any money. The reality of that story is that Comcast is trying to be treated like a peer with Level 3, asking for a traditional peering arrangement, when they know damn well that they aren't a peer.

      See, Level 3 is Comcasts ISP .. thats right, just like you are a customer of your ISP (which may in fact be Comcast) so too is Comcast a customer of Level 3. The arrangements are completely synonymous This isnt about Comcast trying to violate Net Neutrality. Its about Comcast trying to get a discount on the fee's they pay for internet service.

      Level 3 says to its customer "We would like to increase the bandwidth you get from us for free" and Comcast replying "No way! We don't want more bandwidth unless we get something in return"

      Now imagine the analog. Comcast says to its customer "We would like to increase the bandwidth you get from us" and the customer reply "No way! My shitty assed XFINITY service is way fast enough! You have to give me something in return."

      THAT is the absurdity of the Comcast vs Level 3 issue. Thats not a Net Neutrality issue at all, its Comcast refusing better service from its fucking ISP.

    19. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by vertinox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The funny thing about your statement is, there are grassroots and smaller parties who would fit 80 percent of Americans more than the Republicans or Democrats do but they seem to be totally unaware of it.

      Time for a history lesson...

      In a first past the post two parties will always dominate. Doesn't matter what names or their policies are, but a 3rd party always has math against it.

      Oddly enough the two oldest democracies that are still around today went with FFP because voting had never really been tried before (UK and the USA) while the more newer ones have gone with other forms such as proportional representation (like Germany and Israel). This was that as new countries were being formed or overthrowing their old monarchies, they realized that the FFP was flawed in someways as they could see how it was in the countries that had it (usually looking at the UK) and being more modern times (1890 through 1950s) they went with PR, IRV or STV (single transferable vote) in which 3rd parties get a greater voice in government and the change of a 3rd party actually becoming a 1st or 2nd party is greater (like the German Greens or the Israeli lukid).

      So if you want change... Real change with 3rd parties, you need to change the constitution. Of course the vested parties won't really be too keen on that but from my understanding a few states passed STV last year in some local elections so you'll start seeing 3rd parties on grassroots levels in some places.

      For more info: http://www.fairvote.org/

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    20. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      Not quite. If you're (for example) a Green, go ahead and vote in the Democratic or Republican primary (whichever is most contested) to get the most Green-like candidate you can, which will encourage candidates in that party to at least sound like a Green and make Green ideas mainstream. Then in the general election, vote Green unless your most Green-like candidate won in the primary.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    21. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uhhh pretty much all since there exists NO competition in a good 80%+ of the USA? I'll use myself for an example: Here I have the "choice" of Cox cable (boy did they choose a perfect name, since they are dicks) AT&T DSL which MAXES at 768k and which I've been told "tough shit, take it or leave it" because they have NO intention of upgrading the lines, or the local WISP that if you are lucky your connection works maybe 6 hours a day and who pulls your plug if you use close to 1Gb a day.

      So where EXACTLY would my "choice" come from if Cox decides to fuck me out of Youtrube/Netflix/etc? Because while you may have piles of money in the bank to afford to abandon your place of residence and start over in some other state just for better Internet, most of us frankly can't afford that. We have wives/GFs, family, jobs, etc that simply don't allow us to just walk away and without net neutrality the ISPs know they can do anything they want while sending you a bill that is crazy priced and has a full color Goatse under complaint dept and you can't do shit because you've got nowhere to go.

      So while I'm all for the free market the simple fact is there is NO free market for Internet access for the majority of us. Hell look up the broadband report article and see how many were like me complaining the numbers were an outright lie. You simply can't "vote with your dollars" if the choice is take it or enjoy dialup.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    22. Re:Thank your neighborhood republican by clarkkent09 · · Score: 2

      Or the Obamacare bill, rammed through a procedural loophole in the middle of the night, during a brief period where Dems were accidentally in control of both houses and the presidency (not because they had mandate to make this kind of huge changes but due to unpopularity of the previous president) and voted in by congressmen who by their own admission did not read it.

      Major bills should not be passed without some bipartisan support. Otherwise we are just waiting for Republicans to chance upon an opportunity to undo everything Democrats have done, and round we go again.

      --
      Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
  2. The House, Not The House & The Senate by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Senate won't pass this so it's merely symbolic on the part of the House. Way to manage your time well, boys and girls. Now get back to work on real problems!

    1. Re:The House, Not The House & The Senate by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't be so sure they won't pass it. It's an amendment, not a bill; IIRC, that means they would have to vote specifically to strip the amendment out before they vote on the entire bill, and I'm not at all confident that enough members of the thin (and historically spineless) Democratic majority in the Senate have the will for that fight. Adding riders to "must-pass" bills is a time-honored technique for sneaking all kinds of looniness into law.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:The House, Not The House & The Senate by Xacid · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Adding riders to "must-pass" bills is a time-honored technique for sneaking all kinds of looniness into law."

      And this nails precisely why this technique needs to be abolished. It's dishonest politicking. Each section of a bill ought to be required to be voted on.

    3. Re:The House, Not The House & The Senate by DarkOx · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not only that if they amend the bill to remove the amendment it will have to go back to the House. As it stands this morning I doubt the final bill can even get through the House. There is possibility of a Government Shutdown at this point because the Speaker has stated he will not let an temporary extension of current funding bill go to vote. Personally I'd like to see that!

      I don't know how I feel about Net Neutrality being forced by government. I am pulled in multiple directions on that but I do know that I don't like an executive agency like FCC deciding to do it on their own, it should be done or not done in the legislative branch. The FCC should just enforce whatever the Congress decides. So I am for Congress preventing the FCC from acting, in the mean time.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  3. Fact is, politicians like power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now why would politicians do something that makes corporations more powerful at the expense of individuals?

    I thought this was a democracy. (Taaaa haaaa ha.)

    Politicians thrive on anything that gives them more power. Here is just example #724,249,196 this month.

  4. The usual. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sneaking an amendment into an appropriations bill. Everyone says it's an underhanded cheat, but it's just too *useful* to prohibit.

    1. Re:The usual. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sneaking an amendment into an appropriations bill. Everyone says it's an underhanded cheat, but it's just too *useful* to prohibit.

      It's only an underhanded cheat when the other party does it.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:The usual. by phantomcircuit · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's not at all what they're doing here. The article is intentionally misleading.

      This is a bill HR. 68 "To amend the Communications Act of 1934 to prohibit Federal funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting after fiscal year 2013. "

      Further they didn't even pass this yet, they merely referred it to committee. Indeed there isn't even any pork in it. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.68:

    3. Re:The usual. by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a bill HR. 68 [loc.gov] "To amend the Communications Act of 1934 to prohibit Federal funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting after fiscal year 2013. "

      That seems unconstitutional. It seeks to strip the 2014 (and beyond) house of representatives of an ability that is specifically mentioned in Section 8 and clause 1 of the constitution which states "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" not to mention clause 3 which states To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"

      What I'm trying to say is how can the current house of representatives take away a future's house of representatives ability to fund anything (which in this case being the Corporation for Public Broadcasting) which is described as one of the functions of that body by the constitution without a constitutional amendment?

      I suspect they can't.

      It's well within their power to allocate the government's money during this session, but trying to dictate what a future congress can do seems like a stretch.

      Funny how the party that sells themselves as adhering to the constitution always seems to be the ones that do everything possible outside the bounds of the constitution...

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    4. Re:The usual. by Monchanger · · Score: 2

      ...Second, the legislative branch was given appropriations power for precisely the reason of having the ability to ensure which things got funded during tough times.

      Bullshit. There's nothing about "tough times" in the Constitution. You made that up to make it sound like the Republicans are acting responsibly by going the wrong way about using Congress' power of the purse. Which idiot Fox News contributor fed you that "fact" ?

      There's a lot of folks (myself included) who actually wouldn't consider a "government shutdown" to be a bad thing. There's plenty of people who think the government is way too big, has its fingers way too deep into every aspect of American life, and that shutting down the government is a forcible extraction of those fingers.

      I sure hope you're ready to house and feed a few military families for the duration, because I can't afford to at the moment. Shutdowns mean they won't get paychecks, nor will people on Social Security. You want to reduce the size of government, fine- Mr. Boehner has the power to repeal laws establishing government programs and he should work to do just that. Avoiding passing the whole budget isn't a reasonable way to change small parts of it. Shutdowns are the act of a selfish child shirking responsibility.

      The sentiment today is a whole lot different than it was the last time around. Sure, there was some small-government opining, but it was nowhere near as prevalent as it is today.

      I'm with you there. The fervor pitch of the crazies in the Tea Party who make unreasonable demands ending with "or else", is simply undemocratic. Again, disagreement is not a good reason for a shutdown either. Having control of only half of Congress doesn't give you much power- they need to reread the Article 1, Section 7 and abandon this infantile fantasy that they should be able to do whatever they want because they have a majority the House for two years.

  5. whores. by unity100 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "it will stifle innovation and investment in broadband"
    wait. it did NOT. it was de facto rule of internet up till this day, until you corporate whores had been instructed to kill it.

    land of the !free! *rich ... give me !freedom! *dollars or give me death ...

    1. Re:whores. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not just whores: temple whores. It is an article of their faith that the free market is always more innovative than the government and no government program has ever done anything good for the economy. The fact that this belief serves the interest of the people lining their pockets is a nice bonus. In other words, they're whores, but they'd be happy to do it for free, because God in His form of the Invisible Hand told them to. I'm not exactly sure how this dogma fits in with the Christianity so many of them so loudly profess, but apparently enough money buys indulgence for a multitude of sins.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:whores. by commodore6502 · · Score: 4, Informative

      >>>it was de facto rule of internet up till this day,

      Since when was net neutrality the defacto rule? I don't recall that ever being the case - in fact I remember the earliest ISPs like AOL, Compuserve, Genie, and so on used to put the internet behind a wall and charge extra. Then they opened the wall, but filtered which websites or newsgroups you could visit.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    3. Re:whores. by commodore6502 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>It is an article of their faith that the free market is always more innovative than the government

      YES competition is always more innovative than a government monopoly. That is a self-evident truth, because the many produce more ideas than the one. Problem: ISPs are not a free market and never were (except during the brief dialup era). ISPs are monopolies and just like the utility monopolies, need to be regulated. (Or even price fixed.)

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    4. Re:whores. by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      YES competition is always more innovative than a government monopoly. That is a self-evident truth, because the many produce more ideas than the one.

      Was the steel industry more innovative than a government monopoly?
      Was the oil industry more innovative than a government monopoly?
      Was the railroad industry more innovative than a government monopoly?
      I could go on and on.

      Most of the giant corporations competing with one another are left over from the trust busting era in the early 1900s.
      Maybe you meant to say that "regulated competition is always more innovative than a government monopoly"?
      Because, while it may not be self evident, history has shown that truly free markets will lead us directly to monopolies.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:whores. by Remus+Shepherd · · Score: 2

      YES competition is always more innovative than a government monopoly. That is a self-evident truth, because the many produce more ideas than the one.

      I don't buy that. Competition is very, very good at incremental improvements that retain the power structure of their markets, but very bad at revolutionary innovation that creates new markets.

      The internet is a prime example; corporations have added on to it, but we are still using the same TCP/IP and HTTP protocols that were developed by government research grants 15 or 25 years ago. The landline phone companies still give twisted pair copper lines to a majority of customers in the US, because they can't be arsed to make expensive innovations for a tiny improvement in their profit.

      Automobiles are another example. Auto manufacturers have been scared to break out of the gasoline model. Electric cars were economically viable in 1910, and were tried again in 1990, but only today are the manufacturers desperate enough to put them out in quantity.

      You can see this in every industry. Power generation. Pharmaceuticals. Toys. Hollywood movies. All of them make small, incremental improvements to their product in an attempt to perfect their formula, but god help anyone who tries to revolutionize their industry with something truly innovative and new.

      Competitive improvement is masturbation for capitalists. It makes them feel good, but it doesn't really make the world better. We need real innovation from a non-profit entity that's willing to throw aside traditional power structures and create a better future.

      --
      Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
    6. Re:whores. by Jay+L · · Score: 4, Informative

      AOL, Compuserve, Genie, and so on used to put the internet behind a wall and charge extra.

      Wait, what? AOL never charged extra for Internet access; it was part and parcel of the AOL client. ("AOL is the Internet and so much more!") I don't believe the others charged extra either.

      Then they opened the wall, but filtered which websites or newsgroups you could visit.

      You have your history reversed. First AOL offered newsgroup access without any client changes, via a server gateway; once it was technically feasible, we built a browser and then a sockets library into the client so you could do whatever you wanted (short of connecting to port 25, which we redirected for spam filtering). I don't remember if we filtered out the porn newsgroups from our server gateway, though it wouldn't surprise me - we thought at the time that it was important for us to remain a "family service", though we were simultaneously developing automatic newsgroup-to-binary download capabilities, and of course you could use your own newsreader and a commercial news spool like giganews if you wanted full newsgroup access. We didn't filter any web access that I recall.

      Jay Levitt, AOLer, 1989-2001

    7. Re:whores. by Alt_Cognito · · Score: 2

      What you're asking for is silly. Corporations aim to eliminate free markets. That's what they do.

      Free markets != Perfect markets, but corporations seek to eliminate the major components of free markets:

      * Freedom of Information - Fraudulent Marketing (do you really get 5mb/s at any time?), Confusing pricing schemes (more common in retail), elimination of product information (what is you bandwidth cap, are certain services restricted?)
      * Freedom to Price - Comcast wants to make it more difficult for Netflix to sell content cheaply, so it is effectively using it's monopoly status over users to cause netflix to raise prices
      * Few Barriers to Entry - Starting a cable company is obviously a non-trivial task - many regulations (we'll give communications companies a pass here)
      * Equal Access to Production Technology - One result of the comcast/nbc merger is now other cable companies and content companies will have to come to them for their product.

    8. Re:whores. by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      Amtrak may be a poorly run government service, screwed over by stupid decisions like not building its own rails and having to yield the right of way to every freight train ever while stopping at least twice in every representative's district, but the only reason Amtrak is a "monopoly" is because for the vast majority of the country, nobody else wants to waste their money providing passenger rail cross-country. If the government cancelled it, nothing at all would take its place on a national scale.

      Anybody else who is willing to spend their money buying a long line of land between A and B, laying down track, buying cars, and marketing and selling tickets is more than welcome to try. And when they go bankrupt, banks and investors will make it that much harder to borrow money to try again. But if you don't want to play capitalist rail baron, the 1997 Amtrak reforms allowed states to partner together to create state-run interstate rail lines. And these do exist, and do compete with Amtrak. In New England, anyway. Nobody else cares.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    9. Re:whores. by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Was the steel industry more innovative than a government monopoly?

      - I don't know about this in USA, however I bet it was.

      Was the oil industry more innovative than a government monopoly?

      - absolutely.

      Was the railroad industry more innovative than a government monopoly?

      - absolutely.

      Multiple players within industries are always more innovative if they are not government oligopolies/monopolies. Most of the rail industry always had government in it, and I assume so was most of steel (at least this was true in Russia since the times of Petr and Demidov)

      It is possible that one player takes over a market segment for a while and as long as this player was providing the market with a product of a quality/price that market accepted this domination could continue, until some new improvement in technology came along that reduced the cost of entry for new players in the market.

      (Standard Oil)

      However sometimes the monopoly in question is very efficient for a very long time, the way it was with Alcoa Aluminum and it could provide the product at very low prices that nobody could really compete on price with and then the competition did the bad thing - used government intervention to break up the monopoly and decrease efficiency and start providing the same product for higher price!

    10. Re:whores. by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2

      You seem to forget that the reason that Amtrak was created in the first place is because the private passenger rail industry collapsed. Pullman went bankrupt. Penn went bankrupt. No one else was making money at passenger rail, and in fact, passenger rail had been a money loser for decades.

      Amtrak was set up as an optional program; the railroads did not have to sell their passenger operations to it, but virtually all of them did. Of those that did not, they either did later, shut down, or were very small (or became so).

      If we had not had Amtrak passenger rail in the US would have basically vanished 40 years ago. Amtrak doesn't do a great job, hobbled as it is in many respects, but at least it has been serving as a pilot light.

      Now, if you want to discuss how the government interfered with rail by doing things like subsidizing automotive and air transport, or taking away their mail contracts, or imposing overly strict safety standards without assisting railroads in modernizing so as to lessen their negative impact, etc., that's fine.

      Or if you'd like to discuss how the government could spur a renaissance in private passenger rail by, e.g. building a high speed passenger rail network, seizing and improving existing rail networks and rights-of-way so as to build regional and local passenger rail that can operate at higher speeds than today, and coexist with freight, and licensing anyone who meets standards to operate passenger and freight trains over the national network, that would be fine too.

      But just getting rid of Amtrak would be unproductive. You'd kill off the last bit of passenger service, in an era when people are clamoring for it, and you'd do nothing to see that void filled or that service provided.

      Markets can and do fail, and this one has.

      (And freight is not as deregulated as you seem to imagine, either)

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    11. Re:whores. by Jay+L · · Score: 2

      Back then it was purely a Commodore BBS with full graphics

      Q-Link didn't have full graphics, other than in the games; the service itself was text-based, and the menus weren't even graphic (they were split-screen, if you remember, and the divider would wiggle when the modem was in use, a side-effect of interrupt handling routines). A roomful of Q-Link users burst into applause when they saw this innovation in Super-Q: graphic emoticons in People Connection. Oooh!

      Then when the web came-along in 1993 they offered access to it, but it cost extra

      It didn't. Didn't happen. Dig up your old bills and check.

      couldn't access playboy.com unless you first proved you're an adult

      I'm pretty sure, though not positive, that this is also wrong. We had Parental Controls that would lock out the entire web from your childrens' screen names, but the master account was presumed to be an adult (we had your credit card), and I don't remember any domain whitelists or anything like that. I've asked around and I'll post back the answer.

  6. Seems Legit by Flyerman · · Score: 5, Funny

    Remember, these are some of the smartest people in the country. They have evaluated the issue from all angles and determined that "net neutrality" as regulated by the FCC is not in the interest of their constituents.

    They know exactly how it works and what it means for various businesses and especially in terms of the First Amendment. They have been completely unbiased in their review and I applaud them for their actions.

    1. Re:Seems Legit by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 2

      Ahahaha oh man, I can't believe you kept a straight face.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    2. Re:Seems Legit by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm pretty good at Internet.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    3. Re:Seems Legit by Osgeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      jeez the op was so ripe with sarcasm that I think I got some of its juice on my desk, and yet somehow, someone had a woosh, good job

    4. Re:Seems Legit by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You laugh.

      But of course, lurking in the back of everyone's mind is the simple possibility that it might not be possible to pay for a non-tiered, flat-rate, uniform quality-of-service internet of sufficient capacity to deliver on-demand HD video or SIP telephone from any particular content provider in the US, independent of geography and service provider, to every terminal in the United States with flat monthly or even per-byte pricing on either end. The costs of building and maintaing the system simply don't map to consumption of the system's resources. Some parts of such a price structure are really lucrative for a network operator and some of them don't pay off for decades.

      And if there were ways of doing it this way, it would require a hell of a lot more regulation than mere mandatory "Net Neutrality."

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:Seems Legit by ZankerH · · Score: 2

      whoosh...

    6. Re:Seems Legit by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ... lurking in the back of everyone's mind is the simple possibility that it might not be possible to pay for a non-tiered, flat-rate, uniform quality-of-service internet of sufficient capacity to deliver on-demand HD video or SIP telephone from any particular content provider in the US, independent of geography and service provider, to every terminal in the United States with flat monthly or even per-byte pricing on either end. The costs of building and maintaing the system simply don't map to consumption of the system's resources....

      Well than that thought needs to be purged from everyone's mind like puss from a zit on a HS kid's prom night. It is not impossible to build and deploy a nation-wide infrastructure capable of delivering high quality service to every part of this country. We've done it before. We've done it multiple times before. We managed to build and deploy a high quality (at the time) electricity network in this country that could reach every single home, rural or urban, that wanted it. We managed to build and deploy a high quality (at the time) water delivery infrastructure to every home and business in this country, rural or urban, that wanted it. We managed to build and deploy a high quality (at the time) interstate and state level highway system that could deliver transport goods to just about anywhere in the country. We build the rails before that and (at the time) they were very high quality. We built and deployed the telephone network, and managed to rig it to deliver high quality analog voice signals to every damn place in this country!

      There was a time (there were multiple times) when the United States invested in developing itself. There was a time when we weren't piss scared to spend the money to connect every freakin' corner of this country to the latest technology of the period. We have the man power. We have the resources. We have the know how. We can and should build and deploy a high capacity, high speed network system of computer (internet) because it is the next great investment in the future. Internet access, hands down, is the world-changing infrastructure of our era. As the leaders of the free world (supposedly) and the premier technology power in the world (supposedly) it should not take this much politicking, bullshitting, and corporate cock sucking to deploy free (as in libre) and open internet access to the whole fucking country!

      How the hell has our population been convinced that this is somehow acceptable or normal? America used to be capable of seizing upon a new invention (rail, steam engine, internal combustion engine, electricity, telephony) and deploying it, broadly and fairly, to the whole fucking population. And yet today we piss away one of the greatest infrastructure opportunities (cheap, open, frree (as in libre) access to the world's whole sum of knowledge) all because a few sacred telco monopolies have convinced us "It's just too hard, nigh, impossible to undertake such a large project."

      Fuck That!

      We built the transcontinental railroad. We built the interstate system. We let Ma Bell build the telephony system and then broke them up when they abused their monopoly powers. We have built nuclear power plants and the Alaskan pipeline. We built the California Aqueduct. We put a human being on the fucking moon for Christ's sake and we're going to accept the notion that we, as a country and society, cannot get fast, unfettered access to the internet like every other first world country?

      Bullshit!

      Will it cost money? Yes! Will it take a lot of hard work? Yes! Will it take time, higher taxes, and the spine to tell the multinational telco's to go fuck themselves? Yes!

      But will it pay off in the end? Anyone who thinks it won't is stuck in the stone age, fooling themselves, or just downright lying.

      You bet your sweet ass that we could build and deploy a strong, open access platform for the internet nation wide. The only problem seems to be that people are too chicken shit scared or stupid to push for it.

  7. It's a MONOPOLY dummy by commodore6502 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Monopolies need to be regulated Mr. Congresscritter.

    Jeez. Maybe we can appeal to our Member State Legislatures to regulate the Comcasts, Verizons, and other monopolies inside their borders.

    --
    Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    1. Re:It's a MONOPOLY dummy by commodore6502 · · Score: 2

      Before you go too far with your Republican 5-minute hate, remember which party established Commissions and Czars to help track-and-prosecute copyright (monopoly) infringers and downloaders, for their Hollywood and Record company friends.

      That would be the D's.
      Both parties suck.
      "We don't have two parties - we have ONE party. The Big Government party with two branches - both of which want to limit your person and your liberty." - Judge Napolitano, http://freedomwatchonfox.com/

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
  8. Just to be clear... by Anubis+IV · · Score: 5, Informative

    This lack of funding is aimed at the FCC's version of "net neutrality", not to block net neutrality in general. This is a good thing. That version of "net neutrality" was in name only. Obviously there are interests on both sides of the aisle at play here (Big Business wants even less restriction, consumers want what they've always had), but we all agreed that the FCC's current idea sucked, so this is a win.

    1. Re:Just to be clear... by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And once the Republicans repeal the health care reform bill, they'll be replacing it with a new reform package, right? Just because the current idea sucks, does not mean that if it gets repealed we're guaranteed something better. At least with what we have we can fix it and adjust it as needed, whereas if we repeal it then we have to start over and every interest group and corporation is going to be eyeballing it to see what they can get slipped in.

    2. Re:Just to be clear... by commodore6502 · · Score: 5, Informative

      >>>This is a good thing.

      It is? What was wrong with the FCC's latest rules? I didn't see anything objectionable about them, and I'm usually anti-government. The rules seemed reasonable - block ISPs from discriminating against sites or charging extra to reach them.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    3. Re:Just to be clear... by DrStrange66 · · Score: 2

      >>>This is a good thing.

      It is? What was wrong with the FCC's latest rules? I didn't see anything objectionable about them, and I'm usually anti-government. The rules seemed reasonable - block ISPs from discriminating against sites or charging extra to reach them.

      Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. It's okay if they apply those rules. That just set a precedent. Now they can apply any other rules they wish. Oh but wait... the other rules might become objectionable.

  9. a proposal by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is an interesting proposal in an essay in the latest Scientific American: allow differential charges on the basis of quantity of traffic, but not on the basis of content.

    That would all the (IMO) reasonable approach of charging the heaviest users more and/or throttling their bandwidth, but wouldn't allow Comcast to put competing Netflix out of business.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  10. Real Problems by Tmack · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Like making sure "Obama is a one term President!" Yeh, gotta get priorities set right, cause thats what the people want! Conflict and inaction to make sure someone else is elected, not any actual work on any real issues... ugh, makes me sick

    -Tm

    --
    Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  11. Exasperating by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does anyone else just feel worn out by all political BS in the U.S these days? I mean, it seems like Congress is nothing more than a group of professional trolls at this point. They never, ever seem capable of doing anything useful, or beneficial for the citizens of this country anymore. It's exhausting. Every single time a story pops up (on Slashdot or anywhere else) that involves politics or a political decision, you can basically just assume that it's going to screw over everyone in the country that isn't already a politician.

    Being a U.S. citizen today feels just like playing the role of Sisiphus, consistently pushing a boulder uphill (trying to improve the world by being a responsible citizen, voting, jury duty, etc.) only to realize that you have to push it up again when you reach the top (Congress critters keep passing bills that fuck things up even more). It's exhausting, to keep reading about how those folks we elect to power just stumble around and fuck things up so badly....It's so consistent that it very nearly serves as a dataset to debunk that old meme of, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."

    Our leaders are just fucking terrible. It's exhausting.

    1. Re:Exasperating by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Does anyone else just feel worn out by all political BS in the U.S these days? I mean, it seems like Congress is nothing more than a group of professional trolls at this point.

      Politics HAS become a profession. You work in politics for years, make 6 figures per year, then retire to the lecture circuit, or work for one of your supporting corporations as a lobbyist. Back when this country was first founded, politics was a calling, a sacrifice. Representatives were lawyers, farmers, merchants, doctors. A couple months out of the year they would give up their time(and therefore their money) to go to the capital and legislate. But politics was not how they made their living. But we've gotten away from this. People no longer see public service as a sacrifice. They see it as a tool for personal enrichment, a way to gain power for their family, and(this is the worst part) a means to an end. That end is power and influence, both while in office and once out of it.

      Basically, it's not the system that is broken. It is the people within it.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    2. Re:Exasperating by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      Does anyone else just feel worn out by all political BS in the U.S these days?

      Was there ever a Good Old Days when it was different?

      Much as I like the idea of representative democracy, it comes with the unavoidable price tag of being ruled by politicians.

      (An Enlightened Absolute Monarch would get the job done, but the 'Enlightened' requirement makes them hard to come by. Unenlightened Absolute Monarchs are a dime a dozen, but who wants to be governed by one?)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  12. Re:Gov't enforced net neutrality will suck by risingfish · · Score: 2

    I think you missed his point. Even before this Net Neutrality bill ruckus the government was monitoring traffic so in that respect it doesn't change anything. But more importantly it doesn't give the government more control, it states that the ISP cannot prefer one site's traffic or another. The argument that this stifles competition is mind boggling to me. If you allow them to pick and choose traffic, and can 100% guarantee you that competition will be stifled. And don't forget, they didn't build the infrastructure on their own. The telecoms have taken in billions of dollars of tax payer subsidies and land to build it out, and as such I feel we as tax payers have a right to regulate how they run their lines.

  13. Bullshit by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What produced the Internet in the first place? The government or private industry?

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  14. Re:Gov't enforced net neutrality will suck by marco.antonio.costa · · Score: 2

    I think you missed his point. Even before this Net Neutrality bill ruckus the government was monitoring traffic so in that respect it doesn't change anything. But more importantly it doesn't give the government more control, it states that the ISP cannot prefer one site's traffic or another.

    Dude, you're asking them to legislate. That they will do. To think that all they're gonna do is say 'ok, guys, treat every packet as equal, please' is naive to the extreme.

    The argument that this stifles competition is mind boggling to me.

    The fact that someone would be mind boggled by it in this day and age is mind boggling to ME. Every piece of regulation written in any democratic country in the world is littered with little bits of law that were BOUGHT by corporate interests to benefit them or hurt competitors one way or another.

    That is how it works in the real world of politics.

    The argument that this stifles competition is mind boggling to me. If you allow them to pick and choose traffic, and can 100% guarantee you that competition will be stifled.

    No you can't guarantee that. If they want to pick and choose traffic, thats their choice. Now, if the market for people who wants unrestricted traffic is big enough, all it takes is for ONE competitor to sell an unthrottled monthly plan to win all those customers.

    Unfortunately, the kind of user that downloads 500GB very month are a minority. I'm not dissing or trying some underhanded trick to denigrate those users, I'm a heavy user myself. I just don't feel I'm entitled to use government force to get things my way.

    And don't forget, they didn't build the infrastructure on their own. The telecoms have taken in billions of dollars of tax payer subsidies and land to build it out, and as such I feel we as tax payers have a right to regulate how they run their lines.

    I dont forget that part, friend. But the tax payers won't regulate shit. The corporate interests that bid higher for congressmen will do the regulating, as is the way in America for the last hundred years.

    --
    Send your spendthrift head of state this
  15. Re:Where are the new jobs? by Antisyzygy · · Score: 2

    Well, when you cut taxes on the wealthy, and then keep spending money, the poor end up having to pay for it. This is precisely what is happening. The Democrats and Republicans are both doing it. I suspect its meant to get the politicians and their friends as wealthy as possible before the shit hits the fan. Im not sure what is actually going to happen, maybe another war, a depression or maybe a small revolution (Texas keeps talking about succession, I know I live in Texas), but something is going to happen that isnt good for the average American.

    --
    That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
  16. The Slashdot Glibertarian response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    I owe the government nothing for it has given absolutely nothing to me. Taxes are slavery and I don't want my money going to the projects so that Shaquista (or whatever her fake name is) and her brood can surf porn while young bucks eat steaks and drive Cadillacs.

    Besides, I've got everything *I* need already and I got it all by myself without any help. Time to pull up the ladder. After all, I know what poverty is, I was on welfare and did anyone help me? No! I got to where I am today as an unemployed engineer through the sheer magnitude of my Galtian genius.

    Time to cut off the gravy train. If anything, we should be burning down infrastructure.