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First Ever HIPAA Fine Is $4.3M

Trailrunner7 writes "The health care industry's toothless tiger finally bared its teeth, as the US Department of Health and Human Services issued a $4.3M fine to a Maryland health care provider for violations of the HIPAA Privacy Rule. The action is the first monetary fine issued since the Act was passed in 1996. The US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) issued a Notice of Final Determination to Cignet Health care of Temple Hills, Maryland on February 4. The notice followed a finding by HHS's Office of Civil Rights that Cignet failed to provide 41 patients with copies of their medical records and for failing to respond to requests from HHS's Office of Civil Rights for information related to the complaints."

197 comments

  1. FERPA by ecklesweb · · Score: 1

    Next thing you know, the feds be enforcing FERPA.

    1. Re:FERPA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have any basis for suggesting FERPA is not currently enforced? My father is a high school principal and has been contacted by ED over FERPA due to unfounded complaints made by a handful of parents. No idea what would happen if he had ignored the ED inquiry, but they seem to at least make the appearance that they enforce it.

    2. Re:FERPA by ibpooks · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what your point is. The schools where I have worked do follow FERPA, and to my knowledge record privacy and portability is well respected throughout the education system.

    3. Re:FERPA by by+(1706743) · · Score: 1

      When I applied to grad school, I believe they explicitly gave me the option to waive what I can only assume were my FERPA rights with regards to letters of rec (that is, I waived my right to read the letters). Giving someone the option to waive rights (as opposed to just taking them away...) -- what a concept! (I did, of course, waive that right, as it seemed a good-faith thing to do...seemed to work, at any rate.)

    4. Re:FERPA by oneiros27 · · Score: 2

      As someone who's both managed university systems and who's specifically requested that their directory information not be made public as per the Buckley amendment, I can tell you that it's taken very seriously.

      The problem was, they were using people's SSNs as unique identifiers throughout the system. It was event printed on your student ID card. That's what needs to fixed -- the government needs to force companies/colleges/whatever to stop using and exposing people's SSNs all the damned time.

      --
      Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
    5. Re:FERPA by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      No, the real solution is that no one should expect SSN's to be a secret. It is not a password, and it should never be used as one.

    6. Re:FERPA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Following FERPA (or HIPAA) is not the same as enforcing it. I follow the speed limit laws; I do not have the authority to enforce them.

    7. Re:FERPA by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      No, the government should stop people accepting SSNs as authenticators.

      They work just fine as ID numbers.

    8. Re:FERPA by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      I do give RIT credit for switching to RIT-specific 9-digit numbers for that purpose; that change was affected a few years before I started there, I think.
      I've heard some other mentions of "it's FERPA rules" before.

      Then again, even if a law isn't (heavily) enforced, many entities follow it anyway.

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    9. Re:FERPA by ibpooks · · Score: 1

      If everyone is following the law voluntarily, no enforcement actions are necessary.

    10. Re:FERPA by Bengie · · Score: 1

      One of the largest student information systems out there communicates over the internet unencrypted and that includes everything from address to SSNs. I do lots of student data imports from thousands of schools and I have had it many times where I had to tell schools that they shouldn't be putting SSNs/etc out on FTP. Many times I would bug them to switch to sFTP and even helped them configure their firewalls for sFTP. That's not even my job but I feel I should help them.

    11. Re:FERPA by Skidborg · · Score: 1

      Except that there's a few other people in the country who have the exact same one as you...

      --
      Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
    12. Re:FERPA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I applied to grad school, I believe they explicitly gave me the option to waive what I can only assume were my FERPA rights with regards to letters of rec (that is, I waived my right to read the letters). Giving someone the option to waive rights (as opposed to just taking them away...) -- what a concept! (I did, of course, waive that right, as it seemed a good-faith thing to do...seemed to work, at any rate.)

      Used to work for a company that managed workers leave pay, and a requirement of recieving your STD/LTD/FMLA pay was signing a waiver. If you didn't, we couldn't legally investigate your claim, and those you got denied. Mind you, this doesn't give us a right to be careless with your data, it just gives us the right to access information needed. I suspect the grad school needed the same waivers to investigate you past schooling, share you information with the admissions board, etc

    13. Re:FERPA by ecklesweb · · Score: 1

      My point is simply that there has never been an enforcement action for FERPA against any institution of higher education in the history of the legislation. Indeed the only penalty available to the FPCO for the enforcement of FERPA is the total withholding of federal funds.

    14. Re:FERPA by gblackwo · · Score: 1

      They aren't quite as bad as NIN numbers.

    15. Re:FERPA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I was born after FERPA was passed, and I can't remember ever seeing paperwork required by it. Additionally, I've had paperwork purposefully lost by administrators to do what they though was best for me by lying and failing to actually do their jobs. And, from what I could see, that was to be expected and no one did anything about it.

      The only time I saw it well applied was in college. If you sue a regular school district, they don't lose anything. They just raise taxes to cover the cost and move on, doing the same thing or changing it just enough to win the next battle, even if the opposite of the intent of the law.

      If you think it's enforced, then point to a situation where a punishment was enforced. Here, it took 15 years for the first HIPAA fine, and I've not seen a single organization that was actually HIPAA compliant (and I've worked at many medical offices, and no, they won't listen to the IT professional who makes a living understanding and complying with regulations, but instead hire law firms and health care consultants who don't understand IT to create IT policy). I have always, and still maintain, that if you can document good intentions, you will never receive a fine, no matter how far out of compliance you are. And this one confirms that. The people receiving the fine essentially agreed they were breaking the law and told their customers to take a hike before anyone did anything about it.

    16. Re:FERPA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      When someone actually compromises an open communication over dedicated terrestrial links where they wouldn't have been able to if it were encrypted, I'll start worrying.

    17. Re:FERPA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      How many people have the same SSN as someone else? There are apparently rare errors, but from what I can tell, there are no other people in the country who have the exact same one as me, and almost all people with an SSN assigned could say the same thing.

    18. Re:FERPA by mysidia · · Score: 1

      When someone actually compromises an open communication over dedicated terrestrial links where they wouldn't have been able to if it were encrypted, I'll start worrying.

      Compromising an open communication over such links is no problem. There are well-understood simple ways of tapping and capturing transmissions from dedicated links. The specific methods available for that type of compromise depend on the type of link.

    19. Re:FERPA by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Used to work for a company that managed workers leave pay, and a requirement of recieving your STD/LTD/FMLA pay was signing a waiver.

      Probably not legal. A worker cannot be forced to waive their rights altogether as a condition for receiving pay that is due to them. They might need to perform a release for a specific purpose, but that would leave their rights intact.

      If you didn't, we couldn't legally investigate your claim, and those you got denied. Mind you, this doesn't give us a right to be careless with your data, it just gives us the right to access information needed. I suspect the grad school needed the same waivers to investigate you past schooling, share you information with the admissions board, etc

      How grad shools handle waivers with regards to letters of rec. is the student can sign the waiver, and by doing so, the letter of recommendation is sealed; the waiver is an act of the student surrendering the right to access the letter of recommendation, the text of the letter becomes confidential and part of the student's record that the student is not ever allowed to see.

      By having the letter of recommendation sealed, the school will generally give it greater consideration, since the student could not read/access the letter, the letter is considered more helpful, as the author will be more candid, there is no personal recourse the student has against the author of the letter of reference; so the admission committee can relies more heavily on the letter's "authenticity", giving more weight/credibility to the recommendation.

      When applying for school that requires such letters, given the option, it is pretty much always advisable for the student to do the waiver. Choose references you can trust.

    20. Re:FERPA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If it's no problem, why are you talking in generalities and not about an example that would prove me wrong?

    21. Re:FERPA by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      Your SSN is a 9-digit number. Range: 000-00-0000 to 999-99-9999. That's 1 billion combinations. There have been more than 1 billion SSNs issued.

      That, right there, tells me there are duplicates.

      Since a valid SSN can't have an area number (first 3 digits) between 734 and 749, we remove 15 million numbers; that leaves 985 million. Oh, the area number also can't be higher than 772. That removes another 228 million numbers from the pool, leaving us with 757 million numbers. We can rule out 000-**-** (1 million), ***-00-**** (100 thousand), and ***-**-0000 (10 million) for a total of 11.1 million additional numbers removed from the list; drop off 666-**-**** and we lose another million. Ok, we're left with 744.9 million. Oh, and two numbers have been removed from the system after having been used in advertising. That means there are only 744,899,998 valid SSNs; less than 3/4 of the apparent pool of 1 billion.

      With over 300 million living legal US residents with assigned SSNs, unless fewer than 444,899,998 deceased had an SSN assigned at some point during their life, there are multiply-assigned numbers out there. Since we're looking at nearly 50% here, there's a more than fair chance that a fair number of SSNs of living people are also multiply-asigned. Depending on how you analyze these statistics, you can estimate that anywhere from 5% to 25% of SSNs are multiply-assigned to living people right now.

      5% might be rare. 25%, not so much. From what you can tell (implying 100% provability given your resources) you're probably right, nobody else has the same SSN as you. From what I just showed you, there's a chance, somewhere between 1:20 and 1:4, that someone does.

      If you need sources, my primary source was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number which I verified by perusing ssa.gov so no [citation needed] here.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    22. Re:FERPA by mysidia · · Score: 1

      If it's no problem, why are you talking in generalities and not about an example

      Because you are talking in generalities in referring to so called "dedicated terrestrial links"

  2. Portability, not security by einstein4pres · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised that the first fine is due to the portability aspect of the law, not the security portions of the law. Of course, either is a win for consumers!

    1. Re:Portability, not security by chowdahhead · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure:

      When the health care provider was ordered by a court to respond to the requests, it disgorged not just the patient records in question, but 59 boxes of original medical records to the U.S. Department of Justice, which included the records of 11 individuals listed in the Office of Civil Rights Subpoena, 30 other individuals who had complained about not receiving their medical records from Cignet, as well as records for 4,500 other individuals whose information was not requested by OCR.

    2. Re:Portability, not security by jc42 · · Score: 2

      I'm surprised that the first fine is due to the portability aspect of the law, not the security portions of the law.

      I'm not. Anyone familiar with medical records and computer security issues considers the security portions of HIPAA a joke.

      The primary reason is that medical records are pretty much universally kept on MS Windows systems. There are several reasons why this makes data security a joke. The main one has been discussed here at /. several times: Windows has an automatic update feature, which you can turn off for "application" level software. However, it can't be turned off for "system" level software. MS has admitted that this has been true since XP. Their excuse is that kernel security issues are taken seriously, and updates are mandatory.

      However, if you think about this for a few seconds, it obviously means that any time your Windows system is connected to the Internet, MS can silently install any new software they like. If your machine isn't reporting the contents of selected files to a .microsoft.com site now, it could be by the time you read this, and unless you're a real Windows security guru, you'd never suspect.

      So if you're running Windows, you must assume that anyone who has "socially engineered" a connection at MS has access to all of your data.

      And, less you think this is all spurious, you might look around in the records of the internet back in the 1990s when MS was first supplying systems with internet access. There are multiple reports of people getting curious about why their modem's lights were flickering when the machine was idle. Attaching a line monitor showed that the traffic was a list of the contents of the disk, being sent to a .microsoft.com address. The server on the other end could obviously also ask for the contents of files. This was ignored by the media and most managers, but it was noticed by the geeks among us with even minimal understanding of network security. Similar behavior has been reported for most releases of Windows.

      This all has obvious application to HIPAA rules. My wife has worked with medical data for several decades now, at several employers. Every one of them worked exclusively on Windows systems. She has a Windows partition on her Mac "for work", and uses it a lot. She also has a work-supplied take-home Windows laptop. It's true that they use VPN to connect to the office computer systems. But this does nothing for the above issues. Since her Windows partition and laptop are connected to our home network, VPN just supplies an internet connection to her office machines, so their "silent upgrade" feature can work any time she's connected. This shoots down any claims that her office is protected from malicious sites (such as microsoft's ;-) by VPN. We've verified that both her Windows systems can easily access .microsoft.com web sites while connected via VPN, showing that there is a data path for MS's silent update software to work.

      This is hardly a secret. We've discussed it here on /., and it's been discussed in lots of other forums. Microsoft has a clear and obvious silent path to any medical data stored on their systems, any time they have an internet connection, which is almost all medical systems in the US. Anyone who can bribe the right people at MS also has such access.

      So the fact that HIPAA rules don't forbid the use of MS Windows makes those rules a joke. I'd bet that many medical records people understand all this. It should be no surprise that they treat HIPAA data security as a joke.

      It's interesting to consider non-MS systems in this light. Fully open-source systems are probably immune to such problems, since they'd be exposed fairly quickly. Apple systems are about half open-source, but most of the kernel and the UI have hidden source. Apple systems haven't been documented to have any behavior like those described abov

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    3. Re:Portability, not security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that tin foil hat must be tight.

    4. Re:Portability, not security by ibbie · · Score: 1

      I'm not. Anyone familiar with medical records and computer security issues considers the security portions of HIPAA a joke.

      The primary reason is that medical records are pretty much universally kept on MS Windows systems.

      I guess I was lucky. Most of the medical software I've worked on has run on CentOS or RHEL systems.

      There are several reasons why this makes data security a joke. The main one has been discussed here at /. several times: Windows has an automatic update feature, which you can turn off for "application" level software. However, it can't be turned off for "system" level software. MS has admitted that this has been true since XP. Their excuse is that kernel security issues are taken seriously, and updates are mandatory.

      However, if you think about this for a few seconds, it obviously means that any time your Windows system is connected to the Internet, MS can silently install any new software they like. If your machine isn't reporting the contents of selected files to a .microsoft.com site now, it could be by the time you read this, and unless you're a real Windows security guru, you'd never suspect.

      So if you're running Windows, you must assume that anyone who has "socially engineered" a connection at MS has access to all of your data.

      And, less you think this is all spurious, you might look around in the records of the internet back in the 1990s when MS was first supplying systems with internet access. There are multiple reports of people getting curious about why their modem's lights were flickering when the machine was idle. Attaching a line monitor showed that the traffic was a list of the contents of the disk, being sent to a .microsoft.com address. The server on the other end could obviously also ask for the contents of files. This was ignored by the media and most managers, but it was noticed by the geeks among us with even minimal understanding of network security. Similar behavior has been reported for most releases of Windows.

      This all has obvious application to HIPAA rules. My wife has worked with medical data for several decades now, at several employers. Every one of them worked exclusively on Windows systems. She has a Windows partition on her Mac "for work", and uses it a lot. She also has a work-supplied take-home Windows laptop. It's true that they use VPN to connect to the office computer systems. But this does nothing for the above issues. Since her Windows partition and laptop are connected to our home network, VPN just supplies an internet connection to her office machines, so their "silent upgrade" feature can work any time she's connected. This shoots down any claims that her office is protected from malicious sites (such as microsoft's ;-) by VPN. We've verified that both her Windows systems can easily access .microsoft.com web sites while connected via VPN, showing that there is a data path for MS's silent update software to work.

      This is hardly a secret. We've discussed it here on /., and it's been discussed in lots of other forums. Microsoft has a clear and obvious silent path to any medical data stored on their systems, any time they have an internet connection, which is almost all medical systems in the US. Anyone who can bribe the right people at MS also has such access.

      So the fact that HIPAA rules don't forbid the use of MS Windows makes those rules a joke. I'd bet that many medical records people understand all this. It should be no surprise that they treat HIPAA data security as a joke.

      Oh, that's actually pretty simple. Block Microsoft's sites via firewall rules (not on a per-machine basis, that would be silly, but at the point of entry). You can still have machines outside of the network download all the security updates that a machine might need, put them on a DVD, and make that available to the workstations (

      --
      The wise follow a damned path, for to know is to be forsaken.
    5. Re:Portability, not security by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The updates are not mandatory. They are automatic. You can block them in a wide variety of ways. Additionally, you already "trust" Microsoft when you buy the OS from them. So to "trust" them for updates is consistent. Whether they are in fact trustworthy is irrelevant to whether you, in fact, do trust them.

  3. More to come? by idiot900 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and have yet to see one where HIPAA is rigorously followed. Directives by management are common, but when HIPAA impedes patient care (it's a hassle and timekiller to comply completely), it is always worked around. Doctors by and large, in my experience, toss HIPAA aside the first time they have to decide what to do with their limited time - adhere to every last rule or take care of a patient.

    I'm really surprised it's taken this long for a fine to come about.

    1. Re:More to come? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      I work in a state governmental agency and we take it very seriously.

    2. Re:More to come? by snookerhog · · Score: 1
      +1 Informative

      Are there any studies out there about how much HIPAA compliance costs?

    3. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and have yet to see one where HIPAA is rigorously followed.

      I wrote medical software for several years. Unless the regulations have changed significantly, I doubt if there is a hospital in existence that is compliant. One key regulation involved the release of any "individually identifiable medical information", so if your doctor happens to mention that your sister was in his office yesterday with a cold, technically that is a violation. So is any unencrypted network traffic with similar information (HL7 messages, etc).

    4. Re:More to come? by Velex · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ah, a med student. How quaint.

      One of my former co-workers once got into an argument with her provider's office about a policy change of theirs. It just so happened that office was also a client of my employer's (answering service). So, the office took it upon themselves to put two-and-two together, and they managed to have her fired. Yes, fired because she had an argument off-the-clock in a situation where she was supposed to be the customer.

      I think it's good that HIPAA is being enforced. If you med types want to arrogantly view yourselves as gods or even scientists because you know a little biology, you could at least use a bit of ethics in your daily lives. Dicking around with confidential information and using it for your own amusement/revenge is not ethical.

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    5. Re:More to come? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Are there any studies out there about how much HIPAA compliance costs?

      Probably. They won't mean much. HIPAA is the new boogyman so any 'compliance cost' estimate will be full of untested assumptions, incorrect assumptions, wild ass guess and gonzo statistics. It's really NOT all that hard to follow most of the HIPAA rules. DHS has made it clear that they're not going after each and every little mistake that people make but are instead going after willful, major violations, such as the one in TFA.

      The biggest problem with HIPAA, IMHO, is that the free pass it gives insurers to send your private medical information to any of their friends, er, business partners. No, they can't just post it on the Internet, but the first time you're medical record reflects anything more serious than a bladder infection, be assured that every insurance broker in the country will know about it. But the general privacy rules are a reasonable balance between patient privacy and medical workflow.

      --
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    6. Re:More to come? by VynlSol · · Score: 2

      The hospital I'm at takes HIPAA compliance very seriously. From the provider side, at least, it seems admin has been able to integrate HIPAA regs into daily processes, such that they aren't burdonsome, or even noticable. I will note that TFA shows just how much it takes to wake the fed-monster up. Seems like quite a lot.

    7. Re:More to come? by dunezone · · Score: 2

      I'm a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and have yet to see one where HIPAA is rigorously followed.

      Probably because no one was getting fined.

    8. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Probably because they were more concerned about patient care, and the need to get things done in a timely fashion.

    9. Re:More to come? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Are there any studies out there about how much HIPAA compliance costs?

      Probably. They won't mean much. HIPAA is the new boogyman so any 'compliance cost' estimate will be full of untested assumptions, incorrect assumptions, wild ass guess and gonzo statistics. It's really NOT all that hard to follow most of the HIPAA rules. DHS has made it clear that they're not going after each and every little mistake that people make but are instead going after willful, major violations, such as the one in TFA.

      I used to work for a medical facility and this very thing was rampant. The ladies thought they could read the law and instantly understand what was required. They would spend hours in the conference room conjuring up IP policies they knew nothing about, and expect me to my behind on the legal line. No thanks.

      That's why I left.

      - Dan.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    10. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in a state governmental agency... so you don't have to be efficient.

    11. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably about as many studies about how much it costs patients when it isn't complied with.

    12. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA impedes patient care it is always worked around.

      What part of HIPPA impedes patient care?
      Please list at least one example.

    13. Re:More to come? by DarkTempes · · Score: 2

      I fail to see how allowing patients to have a copy of records of medical diagnosis and treatment is bad for the patient or creates more work for a doctor.

      Yes, I can understand how additional paperwork and rules for HIPAA can impede doctors. I don't see how that applies in this case.
      The given article makes it seem like the healthcare provider was not providing copies of records that they were keeping anyway.

    14. Re:More to come? by Low+Ranked+Craig · · Score: 1

      As well they should. The HIPAA law is an example of unintended consequences if ever there was one. How many patients have suffered or died because information wasn't shared due to fear of legal issues? How much has this impacted the cost of care with all the systems, training, legal reviews, etc? And really, since they always seem to tell your insurance company everything what fucking good is it?

      --
      I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
    15. Re:More to come? by chowdahhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      HIPPA violations are usually identified either by patient complaints to the state department of health or a Joint Commission survey. Of course they happen routinely (daily, in my experience) but only violations that are reported are actionable. And, in those cases, the concern has been correcting the deficiency, not punishing the mistake. In this particular case, Cignet Health Care ignored repeated requests for information and only under a court order did they release the records. This isn't a slip-up, it's gross negligence:

      When the health care provider was ordered by a court to respond to the requests, it disgorged not just the patient records in question, but 59 boxes of original medical records to the U.S. Department of Justice, which included the records of 11 individuals listed in the Office of Civil Rights Subpoena, 30 other individuals who had complained about not receiving their medical records from Cignet, as well as records for 4,500 other individuals whose information was not requested by OCR.

    16. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's good that HIPAA is being enforced. If you med types want to arrogantly view yourselves as gods or even scientists because you know a little biology, you could at least use a bit of ethics in your daily lives. Dicking around with confidential information and using it for your own amusement/revenge is not ethical.

      Thanks for your raft of flippant assumptions.

      There are only 24 hours in the day, and in a hospital, it's often the case that there is some patient care task to do literally every second you are there. Working within HIPAA takes extra time. Do you do everything strictly HIPAA or do you spend that time doing something more for your patient? Much of the time there is no way to do both. Most doctors I've met choose the latter, and those are the sort of people I want taking care of me. I don't care if random people know what my electrolytes are.

      For example, progress notes must be written daily on each patient on a floor. At least one EMR system I've encountered has such a terrible UI that drafting and saving a note is functionally impossible, and the average resident is paged several times an hour to go do something. So most people save them in Word documents on a shared drive, accessible by anyone in the institution and blatantly violating HIPAA, and copy and paste when they're ready to put it in the chart.

    17. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA is so much more than giving patients copies of records. There are ridiculous communications and auditing requirements for any sort of communication of patient data. That is the hard part.

    18. Re:More to come? by debrain · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you med types want to arrogantly view yourselves as gods or even scientists because you know a little biology,

      There isn't even much in the way of actual science or biology. For example, the well reputed author of Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science claims that "as much as 90 percent of the published medical information that doctors rely on is flawed".

    19. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wrote medical software for 15+ years, and was quite familiar with HIPAA. Encrypting HL7 messages was never a requirement to comply, unless you were going to print them out or put them on another (paper like) medium where they could be read easily.

      And yes, it is not appropriate for a doctor to mention a diagnosis (just a cold) he made to your sister. However, the doctor telling you your sister was there yesterday is questionable. Technically, it isn't medical information, however, if a doctor is careless enough to mention it, it's quite possible the conversation won't stop there, and that is where they will run into trouble.

    20. Re:More to come? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Lives aren't on the line at my job, paperwork is, so we take HIPAA seriously.

    21. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For example, progress notes must be written daily on each patient on a floor. At least one EMR system I've encountered has such a terrible UI that drafting and saving a note is functionally impossible, and the average resident is paged several times an hour to go do something. So most people save them in Word documents on a shared drive, accessible by anyone in the institution and blatantly violating HIPAA, and copy and paste when they're ready to put it in the chart.

      Well, that's completely irresponsible, and I hope you guys get caught and fined for it.

      There are only 24 hours in the day, and in a hospital, it's often the case that there is some patient care task to do literally every second you are there.

      Boo hoo. Medical schools accept a ridiculously small number of students (I'm not talking about people who don't fit the bill, I'm talking about straight A students), in an attempt to maintain an artificial scarcity of doctors, in order to keep salaries high. That results in insanely high salaries for you guys, but it does also result in a ridiculous amount of work that you must do in order to earn that money. Honestly, the industry needs to pick: increase the number of doctors being trained, so that you end up with lower salaries but a more reasonable work schedule, where hospitals can hire more doctors to help share your load, or you work your ass off as you currently do. Honestly, those are both justifiable options. What is not justified is that you skirting the rules because you're swamped. That includes rules like HIPAA that affect the privacy of the patient and rules like minimum amount of rest you need to get, which affects the safety of the patient.

      In other words, you're overpaid thanks to an artificial scarcity. You don't have the right to bitch about too much work, that's the price you pay for the profession you chose.

    22. Re:More to come? by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      Yea, well patients seemed to think it was important enough to pass a law because we already established they were more concerned about 'patient care' (translation, making sure you couldn't take your records elsewhere ensuring you would stay rather than get retested for everything AGAIN at an additional cost).

      The law exists because 'they' clearly aren't concerned and we 'the patients' are fucking concerned.

      They lost their right to make a decision in this matter when they clearly illustrated they weren't trustworthy enough or competent enough to make that decision.

      We've already been burned by their 'concern', and we've made it illegal for their 'concern' to be part of the picture.

      They had their chance, they blew it, now they have to do what we fucking told them to do or pay the price for not doing so.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    23. Re:More to come? by shawb · · Score: 1

      It can even be considered a violation if a medical professional recognizes and initiates conversation with a patient outside of work. It's fine if the patient initiates conversation, but merely letting those around the patient know that you are a patient by coming and and saying "Hi!" can be a violation. However, I did hear this from people who work in more sensitive, potentially embarrassing fields; the risk of a friendly conversation being triggered as a violation is probably much greater from a proctologist or STD clinic worker than a family practice physician.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    24. Re:More to come? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity...can you tell me which parts of the HIPPA laws are a hassle and a timekiller for a Doctor to comply with? Administrator's, IT staff, especially the billing staff sure...but a Doctor?

      This is one of the few times where /. wanders into my wheelhouse. This is, unfortunately, how I make my living. And while the implementation may be sloppy for some, just about everyone I work with except tiny one doc offices take HIPPA pretty seriously. I can absolutely guarantee you that insurance claim clearinghouses and insurance companies take it very, very seriously.

      Also, I would like to take this opportunity to say that I have been elbow deep in this for the last 4 years and I would like to state unequivocally that computers do not lower healthcare costs at all. It's just another vector for companies to grab a slice of the money in the US healthcare system pie. I sometimes feel that we would be better off going back to paper claims.

    25. Re:More to come? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      already commented or I would mod you up. It was not intended to be punitive...if you mess something up, they tell you to fix it. An honest mistake...or even, at this point, an ignorant mistake is not what they are after at this point.

    26. Re:More to come? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Yep, my wife's run into variants of this. She works in health care and I've heard her say things like, "I saw a patient in the store but they didn't seem to notice me, so I couldn't say hi" or "that patient agreed to be in an article in the paper so now I can say who she is" ...

    27. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly, the industry needs to pick: increase the number of doctors being trained, so that you end up with lower salaries but a more reasonable work schedule, where hospitals can hire more doctors to help share your load, or you work your ass off as you currently do.

      It's considerably easier to be a straight-A student than it is to be a good doctor. Artificial scarcity notwithstanding, the average quality of the talent will go down if more people go to medical school.

      There are a number of medical schools in the Caribbean that more or less anyone with a pulse can and does go to. In addition to this, there are DO schools. Most of these doctors end up at smaller community hospitals, and the quality of medicine practiced is probably considerably lower than at major teaching hospitals. Having been both a patient and on the provider side, I think it's practically impossible for an untrained patient to know if they aren't getting the best care.

      That includes rules like HIPAA that affect the privacy of the patient and rules like minimum amount of rest you need to get, which affects the safety of the patient.

      Many doctors are not fans of minimum rest rules because it increases the number of handoffs of patients between teams that must be done. Every time there is a handoff, information is lost, and the next team is more likely to make a mistake. This is a bigger issue than lack of sleep, but it's not intuitive to the lay public, so people don't get as angry about it.

    28. Re:More to come? by Quirkz · · Score: 2
      1. This is a false dichotomy. It's not a straight-up choice between "patient care" and "getting things done quickly" with nothing in between. 2. Following HIPPA *IS* part of patient care, and failing to follow it is most definitely failing to properly care for the patient.

      Try going into a restaurant sometime and have them say "we're more concerned about getting your food out in a timely fashion than cleaning the place, so we're just going to serve you food on dirty dishes."

    29. Re:More to come? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      to be "exact" hippa is 45CFR 160 162 and 164

      three entire SECTIONS of dense laws.

      anybody that can actually understand HIPPA (even from limited sense) IS FLIPPING NUTS

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    30. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked in the Medical Imaging Repair industry for 30 years, I've personally seen HIPAA enacted and emplemented.
      Never seen it stop a person from receiving care in a life threating situation.
      How much is your privacy worth?
      A lot more than some might think. ;oP

    31. Re:More to come? by pclminion · · Score: 1

      HIPAA rules allow anyone who becomes aware of a violation to file a complaint, regardless of whether you are involved. The rules also forbid any sort of retaliation against you for doing so. If you are retaliated against they will slam down even harder. Why don't you report some of this stuff you are seeing?

    32. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As well they should. The HIPAA law is an example of unintended consequences if ever there was one. How many patients have suffered or died because information wasn't shared due to fear of legal issues? How much has this impacted the cost of care with all the systems, training, legal reviews, etc? And really, since they always seem to tell your insurance company everything what fucking good is it?

      How many patients have suffered and died due to HIPAA? I estimate zero. Please cite examples in your counter arguement.

      How much has this impacted the cost of care with all the systems, training, legal reviews, etc? Yes, there are costs associated with HIPAA compliance, I worked in medical IT. The controls are neccessary, they should be in place without HIPAA, but since there are costs associated with "Firewalls" and "user authentication" without it some places would not implement them. As a patient, how much say do you have in what hospital you are being taken to? How aware are you of the hospitals privacy and IT security practices? How do you stop the hospital admin from selling your information to close a budget gap?

      And really, since they always seem to tell your insurance company everything what fucking good is it? If the insurance company is paying for the procedure, they have a need to know. Your neighbor in for a flu shot doesn't need to know about your Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Sally in call center doesn't need to be able to look up why her favorite cashier at Target hasn't been in for 3 weeks.

      I've actually implemented HIPAA compliance, and had to put an end to some really BAD policies (Why does every developer have full access to a production database containing 30 million employee's personal information? because its easier to gove the access than try to figure out who needs it.) that I probably couldn't have put in place without HIPAA.

    33. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And really, since they always seem to tell your insurance company everything what fucking good is it?"

      Health insurance companies are "covered entities" under HIPAA law, and are thus bound by HIPAA confidentiality and security regulations as well.

    34. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, hatred and belittlement of physicians. How quaint.

      I don't know what kind of pricks you choose to associate with, but all of the physicians I know are self-sacrificing, hard-working, and consider themselves anything but "gods."

      You may want to see an orthopedist about that chip on your shoulder, mate.

    35. Re:More to come? by aethogamous · · Score: 1

      It is not clear from your post if the providers are violating HIPAA or violating management directives, which are often not the same thing. Especially when HIPAA first came out there was a lot of confusion about what could or could not be done, and, at least from what I have seen, the lawyers would err on the side of caution towards breaking HIPAA, often imposing rules far exceeding those required by HIPAA. HIPAA is also a good way to kill projects you don't like while appearing to support them.

    36. Re:More to come? by aethogamous · · Score: 1

      Yes, far better to toe the line on some ignorant managers directive about HIPAA than concentrate of the well being of the patients.

    37. Re:More to come? by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      That includes rules like HIPAA that affect the privacy of the patient and rules like minimum amount of rest you need to get, which affects the safety of the patient.

      Many doctors are not fans of minimum rest rules because it increases the number of handoffs of patients between teams that must be done. Every time there is a handoff, information is lost, and the next team is more likely to make a mistake. This is a bigger issue than lack of sleep, but it's not intuitive to the lay public, so people don't get as angry about it.

      so learn to keep records properly....

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    38. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From gp:

      Doctors by and large, in my experience, toss HIPAA aside the first time they have to decide what to do with their limited time - adhere to every last rule or take care of a patient.

      Just to clarify your point:

      Dicking around with confidential information and using it for your own amusement/revenge is not ethical.

      Does refusing to sacrifice patient care for the sake of compliance qualify as amusement or as revenge in your deranged world view?

    39. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you med types want to arrogantly view yourselves as gods or even scientists because you know a little biology"

      You're right. We rank the whole world thusly: Gods | You | Scientists | Med Types | Biologists

      Ah, sorry, I forgot "tool". You're slightly after biologists.

      I'm a Computer Scientist, You're a cunt.

    40. Re:More to come? by IICV · · Score: 1

      "as much as" is one of those awesome Humpty Dumpty phrases that doesn't mean much. It's like how stores have signs saying "Up to 80% off!" - except the only item that's actually 80% off is some piece of shit that was overpriced in the first place and is sold out already anyway.

    41. Re:More to come? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      It's considerably easier to be a straight-A student than it is to be a good doctor.

      Perhaps, although I'd debate that to some extent. What about being a doctor is actually that hard? It seems like the hardest part of it is not killing patients at the end of a 16 hour shift - something that is a result of medical tradition more than the nature of medicine.

      Also - when a medical school has 10,000 applicants for 300 seats, I doubt that the selection criteria really picked the only 100 people who were actually going to end up being good doctors from the pool.

      The system is clearly engineered to maintain artificial scarcity. Medical schools themselves are designed to select for people who are like the people who run them - people that can come across as being competent despite working 30 hours straight, and all the other nonsense that the medical profession puts people through. I'm sure I'd make a good doctor but there is no way I'd ever sign up for that...

    42. Re:More to come? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Frankly I'd go one step further.

      I'd require the patient to receive a copy of all records generated within 24 hours of them being generated. At the very least not a penny could be paid by ANYBODY towards medical care before the patient received a copy of their records.

      The patient is of course welcome to throw them in the recycling bin after getting them if they don't want them.

      I'm sure the number of trees that die as a result of this will be a fraction of those who die from routine credit card receipts that people toss in the trash. However, this will get rid of the pain that doctors routinely make patients go through to get a copy of their records.

    43. Re:More to come? by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      Modern H.I.T. is about safety before anything else. Paper based medicine is very error prone.

    44. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      errmmm HIPAA explicitly states that health information may be readily shared between healthcare providers in order to assure good (and timely) patient care. It does not mean that you have to swear never to disclose protected information. You aren't "working around" as much as "working within the construct of the law"

    45. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm flawed, but does it fix my problem? I buy lots of flawed products that are good enough to get the job done! If doctors are relying on flawed information is that flawed information good enough to get the job done?

    46. Re:More to come? by The+Grand+Falloon · · Score: 1

      Many doctors are not fans of minimum rest rules because it increases the number of handoffs of patients between teams that must be done. Every time there is a handoff, information is lost, and the next team is more likely to make a mistake. This is a bigger issue than lack of sleep, but it's not intuitive to the lay public, so people don't get as angry about it.

      Horse. Fucking. Shit. Coordinate your teams better, with some overlap on shifts. Get some scheduling wizard in there to bust his ass once to set up a system that works, and pay fucking attention when switching off. About half my close family works in the medical profession, and I see how they are getting off an 8-hour shift compared to a 12+ hour shift. Information getting lost at handoffs? Maybe it's because the people relaying this information are too tired to possibly think straight, despite their claims of magnificent stamina. I'll buy that a changing of the guard introduces complications, but I would attribute that more to fatigue and to arrogant fuckers with an MD after their names who won't listen to their nurses.

    47. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't kid yourself. HIPAA absolutely does more harm than good.

      Ethical people were ethical long before HIPAA went into effect, and unethical people are still unethical today. It's not as if before 1996 people were running wild in the streets with your private health information.

      These days those "med types" have the option of following the letter of the law and pissing off the very patients they are supposed to be protecting or working around it to save time and frustration and risk a fine.

      The only thing HIPAA has done has made it harder to obtain YOUR OWN health information. All the people who you really don't want to have unfettered access to your health information such as your insurance company or your physician are specifically permitted access under HIPAA.

    48. Re:More to come? by firewrought · · Score: 1

      I think it's good that HIPAA is being enforced. If you med types want to arrogantly view yourselves as gods or even scientists because you know a little biology, you could at least use a bit of ethics in your daily lives. Dicking around with confidential information and using it for your own amusement/revenge is not ethical.

      Parent said that he observed doctors dodge HIPAA when the bureaucracy of doing it interfered with patient care and other time demands. That's not the same as the amusement/revenge scenario you recounted.

      Rules can create stability, improve efficiencies, and establish clear accountability. They can also bog things down in bureaucratic nightmares that completely strip out common sense. Guess which camp these top-heavy approaches (HIPAA, SOX, etc.) tend to fall in...

      It is not enough to have good intentions: a wise rule-maker must have domain expertise and a thorough appreciation of human nature and the special circumstances the world continually thrust upon folks.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    49. Re:More to come? by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      I wrote medical software for 15+ years, and was quite familiar with HIPAA. Encrypting HL7 messages was never a requirement to comply

      And if you do turn on encryption, it's about as effective as ROT13 anyway.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    50. Re:More to come? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      gotcha. This lie paid your salary last year. (I won't say it anymore)

    51. Re:More to come? by NateOsit · · Score: 1

      I work as a Medical Transcription Analyst in Health Information Management, and I would agree that it's surprising it took this long for a fine to be issued. The most common HIPAA violations are caused by: 1) Providers and staff throwing away papers containing patient information. 2) Sending unencrypted emails from personal emails. 3) Accessing VPN networks on non secure home computers. I remember a story a while back about a MD who accidentally released hundreds of patient's info because their kid's P2P software automatically uploaded all hard drive contents. Hopefully this fine will get the healthcare industry to focus on security.

    52. Re:More to come? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Artificial scarcity notwithstanding, the average quality of the talent will go down if more people go to medical school.

      That's false. The accuracy of admissions tests is worse than the spread of those rejected. And, from what I can tell, most people who become doctors have been rejected. If just being rejected from medical school had any bearing on their ability, then they should have been banned for life, not required to jump through more hoops unrelated to their abilities before becoming a doctor.

      Many doctors are not fans of minimum rest rules because it increases the number of handoffs of patients between teams that must be done. Every time there is a handoff, information is lost, and the next team is more likely to make a mistake. This is a bigger issue than lack of sleep, but it's not intuitive to the lay public, so people don't get as angry about it.

      Then do what they do with some high-end call centers. Artificially low shift times and the requirement to work the issue until it's done (or until long enough after the shift end that it's better to hand-off). Why work a 12 hour shift without cover, expecting a hand-off at the end of the 12 hour shift or the doc to extend the already long shift to something even longer? Schedule them for a 4-hour admission schedule, with 4-hours of overlap with the next doctor, for a total of an 8-hour shift but no new patients in the last 4 hours? Sure, you'd have twice the doctors needed. The easy fix to that is to keep admissions standards for medical schools where they are now or increase them, but to double the slots available. No one is asking them to let in incompetent people. What's being asked is to not reject acceptable students because there are no slots available.

      But the AMA prefers to keep medical care poor, as long as it inflates the value of MDs. Yes, I just asserted that the AMA is happy with dead patients, as long as their fees are higher.

    53. Re:More to come? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      all of the physicians I know are self-sacrificing, hard-working, and consider themselves anything but "gods."

      Try asking questions like "why?" sometime and see how that goes.

    54. Re:More to come? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Even after this, no one was fined for being lax with patient records. They were fined because they blocked patient access to their own records, admitted it, continued to do it, then were pricks once the suit was filed. In the 15 years of HIPAA, almost no institutions are actually compliant (i.e., they'll lock an office door and presume safety of records, when the janitor without clearance will have access as a common and ignored violation, and they get worse from there). But the only one fined so far was because of being too tight with records, not too loose. No one has been fined for the most common violations.

    55. Re:More to come? by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 1

      in an attempt to maintain an artificial scarcity of doctors, in order to keep salaries high. That results in insanely high salaries for you guys, but it does also result in a ridiculous amount of work that you must do in order to earn that money.

      [citation needed] I have always been told that most doctors actually don't make a whole lot of money. Perhaps 150k towards the end of more successful careers, but that's perfectly reasonable for somebody who I'm trusting with my life. Also, medical school is fucking expensive. Students are often in debt for a decade due to student loans before they finally make it out of that hole.

      What is not justified is that you skirting the rules because you're swamped.

      Hmm... more time to take care of me, or more time spent on stupid rules and bureaucracy......? That's a tough question; maybe you can help me out.

    56. Re:More to come? by sribe · · Score: 1

      I'm a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and have yet to see one where HIPAA is rigorously followed. Directives by management are common, but when HIPAA impedes patient care (it's a hassle and timekiller to comply completely), it is always worked around. Doctors by and large, in my experience, toss HIPAA aside the first time they have to decide what to do with their limited time - adhere to every last rule or take care of a patient.

      And I'm a software dev who works with your professors. (OK, probably not literally *your* professors.) And I can tell you that HIPAA itself does very little to impede patient care. What the doctors are probably "tossing aside" is not actually HIPAA, but the bizarre overreaching interpretations imposed on them by some fucktard administrator with neither medical nor legal expertise ;-)

    57. Re:More to come? by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      uh.. Healthcare IT systems increase medical care safety tremendously. There are very bad systems out there (GE), but there are very good systems as well (EPIC).

      I have a feeling that GE will be out of the health care software game in the next five years.

    58. Re:More to come? by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      There was some argument creep here...I shouldn't have posted such a flippant response. However, I never said that computers didn't make healthcare safer...just that they don't make it any cheaper. And I stand by that statement.

      Nobody is getting out of this business in the next 5 years. With 5010 and then ICD-10 there is just too much money to gouge out of your customers (especially if you sell an older system...like GE does...that isn't going to handle either one of those very gracefully). Besides...groupcast usually runs on AIX servers, I would have thought that would win them some points around here :)

    59. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an ex-med student who left the career path (not due to academic or ethical reasons) and hates the medical profession, I find these comments rather sick.

      It should be pointed out that most studies are flawed in any scientific experiment. The question is how they are flawed. Most medical experiments would do better being double-blind. A lot of research is recompiling past data from across multiple studies to come up with conclusions. These things are done because, just like in you hard sciences, there is lack of funding to do all these things--the manpower and time alone is immense. I don't think people understand how difficult it is to do long-term studies and followups on several thousand people.

      Medicine is usually considered a science and an art. Biology is using seen as the lesser of the sciences. It's not a good mix. But if you consider most biochemistry, molecular genetics, regular genetics, and chemistry sound, medicine depends on all of them, and doctors for the most part are versed in those areas.

      Also, doctors do not consider themselves gods. That's a paperback, hollywood perception most people buy into and then reinforce when a doctor acts arrogantly, and most are quite arrogant.

      Most scientists aren't really scientists, and we probably have less doctors that are well grounded in scientific principles. That said, "because you know a little biology" is absurd. We know a hell of a lot, and we need to know a decent amount just to get in. And even so, we have "less biology" in medicine nowadays, given the patients wanting more doctor-patient relationships and the increase in non-biology, chemistry, physics, engineering types going into the field. When I attended, 70% of my class were history, polysci, a couple art, and a boatload of english majors. The People asked for them, and they got it.

    60. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck You!

    61. Re:More to come? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an ignorant son of a bitch.

    62. Re:More to come? by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 1

      People are jumping from Centricity Enterprise like a sinking ship. I work in Michigan and every major hospital system in south east Michigan is jumping to EPIC from Centricity Enterprise.

      Other nationally renowned hospitals are leaving GE for EPIC (Mayo Clinic for instance)

      As for cheaper, the only way IT will make health care cheaper is through more efficiency in care and greater safety which leads to less errors and better outcomes.

      As an aside... I have whimsically pondered the notion of creating a software company with buggy crappy software that does something of interest to a hospital and then sell it to them for a million dollars :-)

  4. Dentists... by Vrallis · · Score: 0

    Me: "Could you email me a copy of my (digital) xrays?"
    Them: "Sorry, that would be a HIPAA violation."
    Me: "Could you copy them to my flash drive then?"
    Them: "Sorry, that would be a HIPAA violation."
    Me: "Okay fine, could you print me a copy?"
    Them: "Sorry, we can't print from this system. We set it up that way to save the rainforests." ...

    1. Re:Dentists... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sounds like exactly what this lawsuit was about. Not giving patients their records.

    2. Re:Dentists... by Vrallis · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah, and I never looked into HIPAA enough to realize until now that it included protecting the patient's right to access, not just privacy. Good ammo for my next visit.

    3. Re:Dentists... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Me: "Could you email me a copy of my (digital) xrays?" Them: "Sorry, that would be a HIPAA violation."

      That would be since your name is one them and, as we all know, email is basically and electronic postcard. You certainly can make secure email systems and larger health care organizations often have them. Smaller places just don't want to bother with it yet. Keep whining at them.

      Me: "Could you copy them to my flash drive then?" Them: "Sorry, that would be a HIPAA violation."

      That's not a HIPAA violation, that's a obvious security issue. Nobody in their right mind would let you plug some random flash drive into the hospital network.

      Me: "Okay fine, could you print me a copy?" Them: "Sorry, we can't print from this system. We set it up that way to save the rainforests." ...

      If that's really true, then the health care provider is bullshitting you. Everybody has the capacity to print on xray film - that's the current 'lowest common denominator" for radiologic data. The other common way is a CD and pretty much anybody I've seen can at least do CDs of CT or MRI data (since that is always digital anyway).

      HIPAA is currently being used as the common excuse for not wanting to do something in Medical Records. It's a handy little boogyman. There has to be some upside to Governmental regulation.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Dentists... by tacokill · · Score: 1

      It also applies to any medical records your employer is privy to. Don't forget that when you consider the implications of patient's right to access.

      Any employer who is not paying attention to HIPAA is going to (eventually) get in trouble. It's not just healthcare providers and doctors who have to worry about it. It's anyone who handles medical records and/or medical information. Drug test results, results of pre-employment physicals, DOT testing results, etc, etc. All of these are HIPAA related between you and your employer.

      I suspect the lawyers are just waiting for a few test cases to trickle through before they open up the floodgates. This CIGNET case is pretty egregious but there will be other cases that will be more nuanced.

    5. Re:Dentists... by altek · · Score: 1

      They're required by law to provide you with the records you are requesting. X-ray data is considered part of your medical record, and legally you are the owner of it. Not sure if you actually had this discourse, or if it's hypothetical, but if it's the former, you should probably remind them of that fact. Then again, I don't know if dentistry is subject to the same regulations as hospitals / other health care providers, but I would assume so. What I said definitely applies to hospitals.

      --
      THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
    6. Re:Dentists... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Nobody in their right mind would let you plug some random flash drive into the hospital network."

      I have worked at several hospital and medical schools. The safest think they could do is plug your flashdrive into their system. Most of the time their systems are so infested with malware, virus, ect that your flash would catch something first.

      I remember a hospital who set up a MRI and connected it to the network and had root as the user name and no password. The operators where irate when we made them change the account name and have a complex password. It went up to the hospital's attorney who only agreed with us when we pointed out it was a HIPPA violation to have patient data (scans) accessible to the internet without a password.

    7. Re:Dentists... by sconeu · · Score: 1

      I did RTFA, and I'm not sure if the fine was for the denial of access, or for the extra 4500 people submitted to HHS's office of civil rights.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    8. Re:Dentists... by blivit42 · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure the HIPAA fine is in regard to denying patients access to their own data. I work at a medical institution, and went through a half day's worth of online HIPAA training a few months ago. It included the whole history of lots of bad things that have happened in the past, why we need patient privacy, ethics, various examples of who can and can not access the data, etc.. The entire training course was all about protecting patient privacy from third parties. Nowhere was there any discussion about patients having the right to access their own data. If there is a provision regarding this in HIPAA, I can say that it's definately not included in standard training courses (and my course was a standard course from a company that many institutions use for their HIPAA training).

      If you read further in the article, you will see that HHS requested the patient records on behalf of the patients who had filed complaints. Rather than simply provide records for the 41 patients in question, Cignet complied by pulling the standard legal BS of swamping them with 59 boxes of records, including those of ~4500 *other* individuals. THIS is likely where the HIPAA fine is coming from -- the release of records for 4500 patients to a party not authorized to see them (I assume HHS was only authorized to see the records of the 41 individuals who filed complaints). This would work out to be roughly $1000 per "incident".

      This was incredible stupidity on Cignet's part. They got what they deserved.

    9. Re:Dentists... by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      Another thing to check is how they bill your visit to your insurance company.

      I doubt many are billing outright fraudulently...but they might bill a code that implied that the doctor had seen you directly for 30 minutes...when he had actually been in the room for about 3. There is a cheaper rate for that. Since almost nobody ever looks at this, it never gets caught. Except if you were that provider that didn't know I had that level of acess to my insurance claims...and that understanding of what the procedure codes were. (They IMMEDIATELY changed it when I brought it to their attention).

    10. Re:Dentists... by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      They can email it to you. I am not asking for a discussion on whether this is the right way to do it...but a password protected zip/rar/etc passes HIPAA muster, as long as the password isn't in the email itself ofc. Although I completely agree with you, HIPAA is used as an excuse for not wanting to do something. And a way for a lot of companies to make a lot of money.

    11. Re:Dentists... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      That would be since your name is one them and, as we all know, email is basically and electronic postcard.

      The ability for someone to see the contents of those records in transit is irrelevant because the owner of the information has requested it be sent that way. Nice try, but that argument is roughly the same as telling the patient they won't understand them so its dangerous to give them to the patient. The user has requested them, you are required to supply them, period.

      You can however, simply say 'we'll mail them to you for a fee of $XXX, and thats the only way we send records'. You're trying to add 'security restrictions' where none exist. There are rules for storage, and you're expected to make minor reasonable efforts too keep the records safe, but the rules are pretty lax and they end the instant the patient requests you provide the information.

      HIPAAs primary purpose was to ensure that patients got access to their data and that it wasn't held ransom by providers who wanted to make sure you couldn't use another doctor. 'Security' was and is a secondary (arguably just as important) function. It basically changed the idea that your provider owned medical data about you to YOU own ALL medical data about YOU, the provider doesn't.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    12. Re:Dentists... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Me: "Could you copy them to my flash drive then?" Them: "Sorry, that would be a HIPAA violation."

      That's not a HIPAA violation, that's a obvious security issue. Nobody in their right mind would let you plug some random flash drive into the hospital network.

      Funny you should say that. Recently I was talking to someone who works in a clinic. They have centralized virus scanning, and he was notified when one of the machines in the patient intake area reported finding some item of malware. Turned out a patient had brought her medical records on a USB stick, and the person behind the desk plugged it into her computer to copy the materials from it.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the malware was installed on the device when the records were copied there in the first place.

      Let me hasten to add that this is an institution that takes HIPAA seriously, but still has these little vulnerabilities. They're looking into disabling USB storage via Group Policies. I suggested filling the USB ports with epoxy as well.

    13. Re:Dentists... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      The ability for someone to see the contents of those records in transit is irrelevant because the owner of the information has requested it be sent that way.

      While the patient has requested that they see their records, they did not request that anybody that can pick off the email in transit can see them.

      Nice try, but that argument is roughly the same as telling the patient they won't understand them so its dangerous to give them to the patient. The user has requested them, you are required to supply them, period.

      I have no idea why you think that requiring secure email is connected with whether on not the patient understands their medical records. It's simply using an insecure method of communication for material that by nature is intensely private is not a good idea. Yes, you have to give the records to the patient (that was the issue in TFA) but the medical provider does have some leeway in how they are delivered and plain old email isn't allowed.

      No

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:Dentists... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      While the patient has requested that they see their records, they did not request that anybody that can pick off the email in transit can see them.

      That's incorrect. The patient authorized release of the records in a specific manner. If they were requested to be left on the front doorstep and signed the permission slip, then it's an authorized release (even if not legal under HIPAA). If the patient doesn't want the risk, they shouldn't authorize the release.

      It's simply using an insecure method of communication for material that by nature is intensely private is not a good idea.

      My medical records aren't "intensely private." I don't care if they were sent to me via billboard so I, and everyone else on my commute, could read them. If I authorize that, I don't understand why you would want to make that authorized release illegal. Why do you hate me getting my records in the manner I wish?

    15. Re:Dentists... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      What would you suggest? Opening up an email from a patient? We know no viruses travel in emails. Or should we just go back to paper everything and have to bring them in on paper and let them scan them back in every time we move records?

    16. Re:Dentists... by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe to start with, how about having a computer for this purpose that's not on the network?

    17. Re:Dentists... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But then, how would you get the file from the patient to the patient's files? Take it from their USB stick, put it on the DMZ computer, then put it on a different stick to walk to the networked computers? Why not just have the standard for all the networked computers be the same as you'd put on the DMZ computer?

      Unfortunately, the "easiest" fix is to have a central repository with medical data. That's unfortunate in that all the conspiracy theorists would assert that it would be misused, and the "conservatives" would want small government, so rather than the government doing it, they would insist that the government write checks to some private company to do it for 10 times the cost, because for some reason, 10x overhead is "small."

  5. I for one by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Think it's about time!

  6. I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The acronym ends in AA, but doesn't appear to be part of the MAFIAA. did I miss something?

  7. And please, by no-body · · Score: 1

    who will eventually pay for those fines?

    Nothing but hot air puffing up some ego.

    1. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your logic is impeccable! We shouldn't fine polluters for fouling the water or the air either, since those costs will just be passed on to the consumers!

    2. Re:And please, by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      You will actually reap the benefits of those fines by having a lower federal debt, or possibly lower taxes in the future.

      Meanwhile, the customers of the fined company will suffer, but not as much as they do by continuing to use them as a service provider.

    3. Re:And please, by no-body · · Score: 1

      $ 4.3 M - Oh, come on, get a perspective!

      http://www.usdebtclock.org/

      Where are they? Fffft - gone!

      First it will get paid out of corporate funds - reduces profit, taxes and, since profitability is a must - stockholders want their cut - the customers will come up for it.
      Size of company/revenue in relation to penalty is unknown, which would be interesting, is it even worth a scratch?
      Maybe lawyers are making more on it challenging the whole thing.

    4. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think the point is to make it more expensive to not follow HIPAA than to follow it.

      There are other hospitals that customers can go to. As you said, it will get paid out of corporate funds, which reduces profit. They may raise prices to cover it, but I'm sure they've already figured out the most profitable price - raise it any higher and it will drive away more customers than they'll make back with the higher price.

      At least that's how it's supposed to work, right?

    5. Re:And please, by RollingThunder · · Score: 2

      The company.

      If they try to pass that on to their customers, their customers will leave them; there is ample competition for that to be an effective punishment that can't simply be fobbed off.

    6. Re:And please, by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure, because everybody shops for medical services with price as their primary concern!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    7. Re:And please, by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      This is why I love the idea of non-specialists being paid a monthy amount based on how many patients they have. You don't get any more for ordering expensive and unecessary tests. You don't get any less for using a cheaper, common-sense, remedy that is just as effective.

      You don't have any incentive to schedule unecessary follow up visits....you get paid the same no matter how many times you see me. If I feel like you are putting me off or avoiding treating me...I go find another doctor and you don't get anything from me anymore.

      Of course the devil is in the details, but I think this would work better than what we have.

    8. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why I love the idea of non-specialists being paid a monthy amount based on how many patients they have

      This exists, it's called capitation, and next to no doctors participate in capitated plans because they tend to be the super-discount "sorry you make a buck too much to be on medicaid" last-resort plans, and tend to have really sick patients who don't have any "unnecessary" follow-up visits.

    9. Re:And please, by Velex · · Score: 1

      Intriguing. I think you're on to something.

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    10. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, they will just raise the rates by $10 next year on their 430,000 customers, give or take.

    11. Re:And please, by filthpickle · · Score: 1

      oh, it certainly isn't my idea...I just agree with it.

    12. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Group Health Cooperative, based in Seattle.

    13. Re:And please, by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Massachusetts has been studying this approach to cost-management for a couple of years now, and the Governor introduced a bill last week to switch all patients paid for by the Commonwealth to capitation. See:

      http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/02/18/patrick_unveils_plan_to_curb_health_care_costs/

    14. Re:And please, by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      True, but the prices get dictated by insurance companies based on what is reasonable and customary and all that (or likely whatever medicare pays).

      If a doctor's office calls up blue cross and tells them that they're raising rates by $10 to cover a fine, blue cross will tell them that they'll keep paying what they've been paying all along, and they don't have to accept it if they don't want it.

      The reality is more of a balance of power as conglomerates of doctors negotiate with mega-insurers. However, no single entity in the system can generally dictate prices one way or the other. Unless everybody gets fined, prices aren't going to change much - and the company that was fined will take a hit.

      However, I don't think corporate fines really deter bad behavior much. A bunch of managers make a bad decision and the people that their stockholders sell their stock to later lose money. Rarely is anybody who was actually involved in the decision at the time harmed by the fine.

      The real way to deter unethical behavior is to send the CEO at the time to jail (even if he is no longer in the job), and the reporting chain down to the guy who made the seriously bad decisions. Let the stockholders keep their money. If CEOs automatically go to jail when really bad things happen you'll suddenly see companies taking a keen interest in compliance. I'm not holding my breath to see this happen...

    15. Re:And please, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not saying that $4M matters in the Federal Debt in any tangible way, at least not to the 300,000,000+ general population - but it does matter to 40 potential recipients of $100,000 stage 1 research grants who might get funded or cut.

      I spent 2 years working at a company doing paperwork for the Feds, while simultaneously being funded by another side of the Feds to do it. It was called research, but the research was already done - this was all pre-market clearance busywork. In a large corporation, the clearance work is meant to keep a few people with their eye on that particular ball long enough to spot potential problems, in a tiny company like I was in, it's the sole endeavor of the whole corporation, for years.

      The ebbs and flows of federal funding may seem like $4M is just pissing in the ocean, but there are whole communities that live off of the funding spray. At some budget meeting somewhere in the future, the receipt of that $4M will be the difference for some program somewhere, or maybe it will just be a second backup "golden toilet seat" for some prototype vehicle, but either way, it's coming out of the hands of people who give the law the big middle finger and going to people who play nice.

  8. cut off nose to spite face by ygthb · · Score: 2

    I just love it.

    to send a large middle finger to the feds by burying them in discovery (this seems fairly common, more info than needed is sent in the hopes that it is too large a task), and in response to a HIPPA complaint about their non compliance with patient medical record access, Cigna violates nearly every portion of the privacy sections of HIPPA.

    I think the fine should be 10X

    --
    Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave. -Guy Kawasaki
    1. Re:cut off nose to spite face by blair1q · · Score: 2

      Cignet != Cigna

    2. Re:cut off nose to spite face by altek · · Score: 2

      Also, HIPPA != HIPAA.

      --
      THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
    3. Re:cut off nose to spite face by ygthb · · Score: 0

      OK, I admit, fingers faster than brain.

      Yes, it is Cignet

      and yes it is HIPAA

      --
      Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave. -Guy Kawasaki
    4. Re:cut off nose to spite face by lpq · · Score: 1

      Was it 'Cigna' who did it, i.e. the board of directors decided this as a company or stockholders voted on it as as a company? Or was this committed by 1 or 2 key people who was trying to stonewall investigations into this area.

      You remove the corporate shield and these shenanigans will stop. Put the people responsible for those decisions behind bars in a standard state pen with other convicted thieves and felons for 6-12 months. Do it a few times and no one will be willing to do it anymore.

      Currently, no person has to pay a personal penalty for virtually any crime committed for the 'Corporation'. But you can't send a 'Corporation' to jail.

      Corporations have been given the rights of human beings, but are not able to be held physically responsible for a crime like a human being can. The only thing you can do is 'slap their hands', OR do the company serious financial harm -- which hurts stockholders and employees who likely knew nothing about the wrongdoings.

      The only sane recourse is to go after the culpable individuals and not allow the corporate shield to take the blame or punishment for what was probably the decision of one or a few individuals.

      Right now, if you are a corporate exec or power-broker with large company , .

  9. Just 4.3? by muridae · · Score: 1

    I first read the headline as 54.3 million and thought 'now that is a fine.' But just 4.3? I tried looking up this company and could find nothing about their revenue, prices, pay for doctors, anything. Is this a small set of clinics that doesn't give their CEO a million in expense accounts, or is it the government forgetting that companies really do compare the cost of a fine versus the cost of complying?

    1. Re:Just 4.3? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your forgetting this is HIPAA - data management isn't THAT tough - 4.3 million is probably greater than the contract they put out to write the software at fault - its simply negligence.

    2. Re:Just 4.3? by silentbozo · · Score: 1

      The breakdown of the fine is quite interesting: $1.4M was for not handing over the patient records in a timely manner when requested by the patient. $3M was for not cooperating with the investigation. This was $1.5M a year for two years. It would have been tens of millions more, but the maximum per year was capped at $1.5M. The only reason the fine was even levied was because the company in question didn't even bother to offer an explanation of why their process was fubar.

    3. Re:Just 4.3? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a tiny company that just did not care to bother doing it the right way, not some big organization with a bunch of lawyers. If they had the lawyers then there would have been more response. They simply ignored it and hoped it would go away.

  10. Which is worse here - take your pick! by hilldog · · Score: 2

    The fact the would not give the patients their records as requested, totally ignored all legal requests or finally coughing up 4,500 other records that were not even asked for? This health care company acted either like a spoiled petulant child or a clueless moron. Either way these are NOT the people I want keeping my records.

  11. More of an excuse than a protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Far more often, I hear "We can't do that because of HIPPA" being used as a BS excuse instead of a genuine privacy protection.

    First case in point, therapist who had my child and my friend's child in a room together, I wanted to go back to see how my child was doing (from the crying screams and sobbing, apparently not well), "No, we can't let you go back due to HIPPA regulations."

    Similar, more benign events have always bothered me because it's just a lazy med records worker who throws HIPPA in your face rather than doing their job to get the information you are actually guaranteed access to by HIPPA.

    1. Re:More of an excuse than a protection by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Let me get this straight, you let them use a law that was intended to provide you access to information as an excuse to prevent you from getting access to information about your child?

      Let me step back a little further ... you let them deny you access to your child? How many people did you kill before you stopped?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  12. Mystery by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    You can read the entire Penalty notice, which lays out a good timeline of what went on. HHS sent them letters, phone calls, sign and return receipt requested letters, then subpoenaed them and after all that Cignet didn't even bother to show up in court. When the judge threatened penalties, they gave thousands of patient charts over, even though the subpoena was for only 30 records.

    Looks like they had it coming, or else someone really badly has to fire their office administrator.

    1. Re:Mystery by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Not the office administrator, the lawyers.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
  13. Get your medical imaging in DICOM by darkgumby · · Score: 2

    For the last several years I've requested and received copies of all medical imaging data. for myself, my Mother and, my Father. In a couple of cases they mailed me a CD but in all others they gave me the disc before I left. Never any hassle, I just had to ask.

    The data is in DICOM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Imaging_and_Communications_in_Medicine format. There are free viewers for Linux, Mac, and Windows.

    I had a CT done of my head. Pretty cool to watch in 3D.

    My Dad has a stint in his aorta. Watching the imaging of them testing it for leaks with radioactive contrast is wild.

    1. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by BitterOak · · Score: 2

      It's morons like you that know just enough to be dangerous that make medical providers shudder.

      What you fail to explain is how the fact that the poster as seen CT images of his head or his dad's heart makes him dangerous. I don't recall him saying that he plans to perform home surgery based on these pictures.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    2. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      What you fail to explain is how the fact that the poster as seen CT images of his head or his dad's heart makes him dangerous. I don't recall him saying that he plans to perform home surgery based on these pictures.

      Perhaps you should re-read his post - it reads: "A perfect example of why any suggestion of saving money by involving the 'consumers' more in the decision making process is laughable at best."

    3. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by muridae · · Score: 2

      It's idiots like you that are dragging the medical profession the same direction as lawyers.

      GP said s/he had a CT, and his/her father had a radioactive contrast scan. Now, sure, contrast for a CT scan isn't normally radioactive. But it is in a PET scan, though specialists may call it a tracer. Same for SPECT, V/Q, and scintigraphs. And a few of those would be useful for checking out a stent.

      Yes, there are dangerous patients who think they know more than doctors do. There are also patients who spot things that doctors ignore because the doctors are used to seeing something else. A patient can be involved in their own medical care without being pushy and a 'know-it-all'.

      But, since you are a know-it-all type who presumed all sorts of things about the GP, you probably didn't even realize that. You thought that doctors never make typos, and no medical records transcriptionist would ever misspell 'stint' and 'stent', or confuse 'below knee' with 'bologna'.

    4. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 1

      If it weren't for assholes like you who wish to keep a patient's own data from them, perhaps more people would understand these things. Maybe if the doctors actually TALKED TO THEIR PATIENTS instead of just treating them like some lab animal, more people would understand these things. Maybe, just maybe, people aren't as dumb as you think they are.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    5. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by treeves · · Score: 1

      And if you are a "health care professional", you're a pretty good counterexample.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    6. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      The point is it isn't such an example since there was statement or implication of involvement in the decision making process - it was a post about getting to look at the pretty pictures.

      And apparently the AC thinks that letting people do that will be the end of the world.

    7. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by keytoe · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are dangerous patients who think they know more than doctors do. There are also patients who spot things that doctors ignore because the doctors are used to seeing something else. A patient can be involved in their own medical care without being pushy and a 'know-it-all'.

      There is also a class of people called 'nerds' who really dig stuff like seeing a CT scan of their head. Many of them, in fact, frequent this site.

    8. Re:Get your medical imaging in DICOM by muridae · · Score: 1

      Oh, I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list of the types of people who like seeing their scans. I was just trying to annoy the AC. Pointless, sure, but it keeps me amused.

  14. It's about time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Insurance companies (sometimes literally) get away with murder and it needs . Bogus denials, unreasonable payment guidelines, lousy record keeping, and piss-poor communication standards need to go! It's about time the law starts applying to this industry. This story is a start... let's hope they start having to answer to rules and regulations like every other industry in this country. Maybe then we can start repairing our flawed healthcare system.

    1. Re:It's about time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *needs to stop. (n00b)

  15. And the crowd discovers the true purpose of HIPPA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in 3... 2... 1...

  16. Paperwork first, patient care second? by perpenso · · Score: 0

    I'm a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and have yet to see one where HIPAA is rigorously followed. Directives by management are common, but when HIPAA impedes patient care (it's a hassle and timekiller to comply completely), it is always worked around. Doctors by and large, in my experience, toss HIPAA aside the first time they have to decide what to do with their limited time - adhere to every last rule or take care of a patient.

    I work in a state governmental agency and we take it very seriously.

    You do realize that some are going to interpret your response to mean that in government run health care the decision will be to give paperwork and rules a higher priority than patient care? I suspect this is not the impression you wanted to make. Perhaps you should elaborate on your response.

    1. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      Why isn't it? We've made LAWS saying that this stuff IS important.

      And also having worked in government public health, it is something taken very seriously. Lifes ARE on the line. Example: A database with aids patient information being 'leaked' in the wrong part of the wrong state/country to the wrong people very well might end up with people being beat to a bloody pulp because some ignorant fuck finds out some guy has AIDS and assumes that means he's also gay AND deserves a beating.

      Theres of course all the issues of discrimination due to ignorance when it comes to medicine as well, especially with things relating to mental health.

      So yes, I expect them to follow the law and if that means occasionally it hurts people then we either change the law or we accept that the good it does outweighs problems it causes.

      You however, DO NOT GET TO DECIDE because THE PUBLIC COLLECTIVELY HAS DECIDED.

      You're looking at it through a tiny instant in time through a tiny pinhole and ignoring everything else trying to come up with an instance to justify your reaction to his statement, the problem is that you are completely unqualified (I say that based on the fact that you raised the question alone) to make that decision, which is why it isn't your decision and there are laws relating to it.

      Again. YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHICH LAWS TO FOLLOW AND WHEN YOU FOLLOW THEM, but you do get to vote for the people who make the laws. Change the laws or follow them, nothing else is acceptable.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Did I saw I work in health care?

      No I didn't and HIPAA doesn't just apply to patient care, it also applies to mental health, disabilities, etc.

      I stand by my comment - I work in a state governmental agency and we take it very seriously.

    3. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by Local+ID10T · · Score: 1

      Again. YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHICH LAWS TO FOLLOW AND WHEN YOU FOLLOW THEM, but you do get to vote for the people who make the laws. Change the laws or follow them, nothing else is acceptable.

      Yes, I do. The court may decide to punish me for breaking a law, but it is always my decision whether or not I will follow a law. See the concepts of civil disobedience and free will. An unjust law should never be followed, and even a just law should not be followed blindly.

      --
      "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
    4. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by perpenso · · Score: 1

      You're looking at it through a tiny instant in time through a tiny pinhole and ignoring everything else trying to come up with an instance to justify your reaction to his statement, the problem is that you are completely unqualified (I say that based on the fact that you raised the question alone) to make that decision, which is why it isn't your decision and there are laws relating to it.

      No. I am looking at poster #1 who offered a very specific situation. Poster #2 then offered a very general and somewhat tangential response that could be interpreted several ways due to its vagueness. I pointed this out to poster #2, offering one interpretation that he probably did not intend and suggested he elaborate to avoid this miscommunication.

      Your hysteria is causing you to see things that are not there.

    5. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by CycleMan · · Score: 1

      If you have determined that a law is unjust or has bad side effects, then in addition to your civil disobedience, I would submit that you have a civic duty to press for the law to be changed. The details of the law and of your circumstances will define what that civic duty looks like in action, but merely disobeying is not civil, it's immature.

    6. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A database with aids patient information being 'leaked' in the wrong part of the wrong state/country to the wrong people very well might end up with people being beat to a bloody pulp because some ignorant fuck finds out some guy has AIDS and assumes that means he's also gay AND deserves a beating.

      Wow, that's some pretty dumb stuff you are making up. Even ignorant gay bashers know not to "beat bloody" someone with an incurable lethal disease that can be transferred via blood. In the real world people are afraid to give those who suffer from aids a hug.

    7. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by Local+ID10T · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The basis of civil disobedience is that by disobeying an unjust law, you serve (by example) to bring to light what is wrong with the law.

      The idea doesn't exactly apply here... I'd be hard pressed to imagine a doctor disobeying HIPA to deliberately show what is wrong with it. I could however very easily imagine a doctor ignoring HIPA when it interferes with their ability to treat a patient -and then just moving on with their day.

      --
      "You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
    8. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Again. YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHICH LAWS TO FOLLOW AND WHEN YOU FOLLOW THEM

      Well, you do, at risk of being fined, arrested, shot (while fleeing), ending up as Bubba's "wife" in the cell...

    9. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Then you are stating that your initial comment was a non sequitur. As it implies some disagreement with the previous poster, which would not be consistent with your implications in this post.

      He said "HIPAA is not more important than a patient's life" and you responded "government workers take it seriously, regardless of the patient's health." If that's not your intention, then you made an error. Insisting that's not what you meant won't change how it comes across. Just say "I was wrong" and move on.

    10. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      I didn't realize you were the intention police. I will consider myself warned but free to go.

    11. Re:Paperwork first, patient care second? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      No, I'm the clarification police. When you are wrong and an ass about it, don't be surprised if someone points it out to you. At least you were gracious in not insulting someone who politely pointed out the situation. Oh wait, you were like every other jackass on the Internet.

  17. Well by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

    If I were a hospital or clinic, I would interpret this the opposite. This is the first time anyone has EVER been fined, and it's for blatant refusals to give medical records to dozens of people or respond to mail. Given what it takes to actually be fined, I would stop harassing people with useless HIPAA notices and using it to obstruct anything from getting accomplished whenever convenient.

    1. Re:Well by iamhigh · · Score: 1

      That was my thought... just now, after 15 years, and it was blatent; not just refusal to the consumer/patient, but to the regulators. Not to mention it had nothing to do with the security portion of the bill. The security issues worry me much more than some doctor holding records hostage.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    2. Re:Well by RKThoadan · · Score: 1

      It may be the first fine but I've worked at a hospital where they were investigating a complaint and it is an extremely major hassle to deal with. I'm guessing it would compare nicely to an IRS tax audit.

      Also, like the vast majority of cases in the legal system, most HIPAA violations are settled out-of-court and I'm sure money has been paid, but it's only considered a fine if a court has to order it.

  18. Until, like the FCC... by Tmack · · Score: 2
    The company that got the fine turns around and challenges the Government's right to meddle with private businesses, and gets the penalty eliminated while saying the USDH doesnt have the authority to fine people.... I swear, if we have Departments setup to regulate businesses, what good does it do to not allow them to actually enforce their regulations???

    tm

    --
    Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  19. HAHA 4.3M is a slap in the face to us, not them! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This doesnt faze them one bit... of the 4 hospitals they run, they have 925 beds between the 4 of them... they're racking in $$$... especially when 99% of Maryland facilities only negotiate 2% discounts.. even on a $51K bill. blasphemy!

    i checked their site and found this...
    HOSPITAL AFFILIATION: Southern Maryland Hospital, Clinton, MD, Doctors Community Hospital, Lanham, MD, Laurel Hospital, Laurel, MD, Prince Georges Hospital, Cheverly, MD*

    then i searched the 4 hospitals...
    Prince George's Hospital Center - # of beds = 329, Total Patient Revenue: $291,123,454; Total Discharges:15,789; Total Patient Days: 101,520
    Southern Maryland Hospital - # of beds = 276; Total Patient Revenue: $232,772,744; Total Discharges:18,567; Total Patient Days: 72,954
    Doctors Community Hospital - # of beds = 190; Total Patient Revenue: $196,845,854; Total Discharges:12,357; Total Patient Days: 51,708
    Laurel Hospital - # of beds = 130; Total Patient Revenue: $91,931,570; Total Discharges: 7,266; Total Patient Days:29,500

    you do the math!

  20. Rigorous vs. basic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This company failed to provide medical records to patients for *2 years*. That's far from just failing to adhere to every little detail.

  21. Don't diss Big Brother by bittmann · · Score: 1
    Seriously -- is this fine about HIPAA, or is it about failing to snap to attention when the Big Government Agency came calling?

    Also seriously: One of the HIPAA loopholes that patients aren't always told about is that HIPAA privacy rules don't necessarily apply when the government gets involved. One could easily argue that Cignet shouldn't have released those 4,500 unneeded records, you bet...but one could also argue that the release of those records didn't automatically trigger a HIPAA violation, as they were released in response to an oversight request, e.g. "Covered entities may usually disclose PHI to a health oversight agency for oversight activities authorized by law." (source: CDC.gov). If HITECH changed that, it'd be news to almost everyone -- when is the last time that the government willingly adopted rules restricting their own capabilities?

    Regardless, IMO if they would've done exactly the same release of information BUT responded in a timely fashion to the Government's demands, there wouldn't have even been a $43 fine. Because that's the way that the Government seems to work.

  22. Re:And the crowd discovers the true purpose of HIP by altek · · Score: 2

    And the unwashed masses still think HIPAA is spelled "HIPPA"

    --
    THE MAGIC WORDS ARE SQUEAMISH OSSIFRAGE
  23. Sounds like... by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    they tried the bury them with paper defense. this rarely works against the government or any other large group that can throw all the bodies at the problem that they need.

    1. Re:Sounds like... by Kazymyr · · Score: 1

      Correct. Government: "We have all the time and manpower we need. After all we're paid by...*drumroll*... YOU!"

      I pity the fool who doesn't understand this.

      --
      I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
  24. Not the first fine! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Sorry, but not sure in what sense this is "the first monetary fine issued since the Act was passed in 1996."

    July 19, 2008: A Seattle-based health system has agreed to pay a $100,000 HIPAA fine to HHS--as well as improve its medical data security--after failing to properly secure data backup tapes, disks and laptops. This marks the first time HHS has agreed to a Resolution Agreement. During 2005 and 2006, medical data was stolen from Providence Health & Services several times, with backup tapes, optical disks and laptops being lost or stolen repeatedly. All told, the unencrypted personal health information of more than 386,000 patients was compromised.

    http://www.fiercehealthit.com/story/seattle-system-will-pay-100k-hipaa-fine-after-repeated-breaches/2008-07-19#ixzz1F0nM91Sd

    2. In 1996 there was nothing to fine. The rules to which these fines apply went into effect in 2005 for large organizations, 2006 for small ones. HHS started auditing in 2007. First fine 2008.

    3. Do they teach fact-checking in journalism any more?

    Stephen Cobb, CISSP

  25. I don't care about medical privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So please don't go creating a nationwide medical information regulation behemoth on my account. Also, can I have my money back? I'm happy to stick with whatever privacy my doctor thinks is appropriate/inexpensive, and of course the fact that pretty much nobody cares in the first place. This is why these things should be determined by the marketplace. Government misdirects capital.

    1. Re:I don't care about medical privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're posting as AC yet saying you don't care about your medical records being private?

  26. HIPAA by pleasegetreal · · Score: 0

    Anyone who complains about the high cost of healthcare and at the same time thinks HIPAA is a good idea doesn't know the slightest thing about healthcare. HIPAA compliance adds a tremendous bureaucratic burden on healthcare providers and is so effective that it has produced one successful lawsuit in 15 years. What a triumph. Billions wasted with no discernible benefit.

  27. -1, offtopic by Legion303 · · Score: 1

    "The health care industry's toothless tiger finally bared its teeth [...]"

    Congratulations on writing one of the worst sentences ever.

  28. A lot of good it's going to do by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 1

    All they'll do is pass the cost to patients. If you want the law to have teeth, you threaten to throw their officers' sorry asses into pound-me-in-the-ass prison. That'll get their undivided attention and obedience.

    --
    ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
  29. Violation #2 - Mass General Hospital by yuna49 · · Score: 1

    Mass General agreed to pay a $1 million fine this past week for a HIPAA violation. One of its staff members left the records for 192 patients on a subway train. They were never recovered.

    http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2011pres/02/20110224b.html

    These are the kinds of practices HIPAA was designed to prevent. I, for one, am glad to see HHS enforcing these rules. Just the fact that someone could be carrying the records for 192 patients around with them while commuting shows how cavalierly some medical staff handle their patients' personal data.

  30. It'll be voided by plopez · · Score: 1

    Don't worry the "Conservative" courts will void it on appeal. You have to protect the corporations, the economy depends on them. All people are created equal, but some are more equal than others....

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  31. Re:And the crowd discovers the true purpose of HIP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And smartasses forget the periods at the end of sentences.

  32. Re:HAHA 4.3M is a slap in the face to us, not them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They don't run those hospitals. They are a small medical practice with just a few doctors. One admin office and one patient care office. If this fine stands up, they are done.

  33. Also Spartacus by meehawl · · Score: 1

    Obviously there's regional variation for this. I'm also a med student who has worked in several hospitals, and I've yet to find one where HIPAA is *not* rigorously followed, even when this creates weird and novel situations. Such as when a white board for patient names, details, and staff assignments is visible to patient or public areas, and gets changed to entire list of last name's first two letters plus first initial. So everyone is Le or Je or Su or Ma, and basically it looks like the entire patient population is now Vietnamese.

    In my experience, the issue is with people less educated about HIPAA's constraints and permissible information sharing instead taking it as a blanket ban about discussing *anything* about a patient - even when in non-public areas and among a treatment team. In point of fact, the JHACO regs around patient identifying information and public discussion tend to be stricter than HIPAA when it comes to medical centers.

    --

    Da Blog
  34. Encryption by meehawl · · Score: 1

    most people save them in Word documents on a shared drive, accessible by anyone in the institution and blatantly violating HIPAA

    I've seen that happen. But you know what? You can make Word encrypt your docs quite securely with a single click. There's really no excuse for leaving world-readable docs lying about when it's so trivial to harden them.

    --

    Da Blog
  35. Everything You Know Is Wrong by meehawl · · Score: 1

    "as much as 90 percent of the published medical information that doctors rely on is flawed"

    I'm pretty sure there's a Sturgeon's Corollary out there someplace, where it is revealed that as each discipline begins to examine itself, it finds that the evolution of its episteme tends to approach Sturgeon's Revelation asymptotically.

    Welcome to reality, where if you live long enough, everything you think you know *for sure* will turn out to be wrong. Or maybe just misguided. The real test is how you deal with new knowledge. Do you keep up and stay current, or do just relax and maintain an elaboration of a worldview and assumptions fundamentally frozen during your adolescence. Doctors are taught over and over in med school that what they are learning is provisional, rapidly changing, and contingent. Many fail to assimilate that important lesson, but many do not.

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:Everything You Know Is Wrong by debrain · · Score: 1

      Sir –

      With respect, perhaps you might be interested in reading the article, as reading your comment I feel you have not. The flaws indicated in the article are not the result of novel and progressive research that replaces outdated notions, but rather systemic pressures that undermine scientific progress and even promulgates regression.

      Further, it seems Sturgeon's Revelation is about the innocent inaccuracies inherent to science fiction and other artistic endeavours, not the manipulative, self-centered and malevolent forces that assault scientific progress in the medical field. Sturgeon's Revelation is a comment on art, not science, though I would expect there is, as you suggest, an epistemological equivalent for scientific research – though again, the article is not a question of the state of knowledge but rather the motivations behind the systemic and prevalent deceptions in the medical field.

  36. I do work in IS in a hospital and you are wrong. by foolish_to_be_here · · Score: 1

    Windows is NOT universal for medical record storage. Linux and AS400 are very much in use. Also windows does not silently push our any patches to our network. Each one is reviewed and approved before distribution to our workstations and servers using wsus. HIPPA is taken very seriously at all levels in our hospital and our IS organization. Our CIO literally stays up nights worrying over potential security holes.

    --
    Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
  37. Re:I do work in IS in a hospital and you are wrong by filthpickle · · Score: 1

    yep. And the bigger they are, the more likely they are on a UNIX system. I make most of my money because the kids don't get the difference between / and \

  38. Intentionality by meehawl · · Score: 1

    In your overly ornate categorical prescription of the "difference" between the reified 'Science' and 'Arts' as discrete and self-similar fields of human activity, you are conflating intentionality with ontology. You also ascribing a teleological direction to the "progress" of human activity, and authoring a moral judgement upon the "forces" that constrain "scientific progress" within medicine. Lastly, I suspect you are promulgating Polanyi-Kuhn incommensurablity between scientific paradigms, a notion that has many supporters, but also many detractors, and is in many areas orthogonal to your teleological framing. You fail to address the tension between these two theses. In short, your argument as presented, while possessing merit, does not produce a sufficient synthesis to derive a satisfactory conclusion especially when considering your moral focus.

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:Intentionality by debrain · · Score: 1

      Sir –

      > In your overly ornate categorical prescription of the "difference" between the reified 'Science' and 'Arts' as discrete and self-similar fields of human activity, you are conflating intentionality with ontology.

      Am I? Indeed. I'm not sure where the conflation you allege took place, but I thought I took a rather logically postivist perspective. Whether I communicated such is a different question.

      > You also ascribing a teleological direction to the "progress" of human activity, and authoring a moral judgement upon the "forces" that constrain "scientific progress" within medicine.

      No, and yes, respectively.

      > Lastly, I suspect you are promulgating Polanyi-Kuhn incommensurablity between scientific paradigms, a notion that has many supporters, but also many detractors, and is in many areas orthogonal to your teleological framing.

      I have no idea who Polanyi-Kuhn is or the notion they advanced, or why it applies to this discussion. I shared a well reputed paper because it comments on systemic issues inherent to the field of medical science.

      I any event Incommensurability does not seem to be a relevant consideration to the conclusions or observations set out in the article I shared.

      > You fail to address the tension between these two theses. In short, your argument as presented, while possessing merit, does not produce a sufficient synthesis to derive a satisfactory conclusion especially when considering your moral focus.

      Although you use some big words, which make for an enjoyable read, I must admit in spite of my reasonable effort I've failed to understand what your point is.

      Was your purpose in writing this post to make a point? Or was the point to use big words?

      More to the point: Did you read the article, yet?

  39. RTFA by meehawl · · Score: 1

    I always RTFA. The fact that you and I both seem to have read the same material, and are using the same language and grammer, yet are failing to communicate, is in a sense the essence of incommensurability in action. We are expressing different paradigms, which is ironic given the Polanyi-Kuhn comment. The fact that you say do not know who Polanyi or Kuhn were or what they said does not negate the fact that you used an argument very similar to theirs.

    --

    Da Blog