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Got (Buffer) Bloat?

mtaht writes, "After a very intense month of development, the Bufferbloat project has announced the debloat-testing git kernel tree, featuring (via suggestion of Van Jacobson) a wireless network latency smashing algorithm, (called eBDP), the SFB and CHOKe packet schedulers, and a slew of driver level fixes that reduce network latency across the Linux kernel by over 2 orders of magnitude. Got Bloat?"

10 of 121 comments (clear)

  1. Re:what it is by firstnevyn · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's about the downside of memory becoming cheap causing latency problems with congestion control mechinisms that rely on the endpoints being able to inform the sender when it's sending too fast.

    Jim Getty's research blog entry explains the problem in detail.

  2. What bufferbloat is by Sits · · Score: 5, Informative

    My understanding may not be correct but:

    Bufferbloat (I first came across the term bufferbloat in this blog post by Jim Gettys) is the nickname that has been given to the high latency that can occur in modern network connections due to large buffers in the network. An example could be the way that a network game on one computer starts to stutter if another computer starts to use a protocol like bittorrent to transfer files on the same network connection.

    The large buffers seem to have arisen from a desire to maximise download throughput regardless of network condition. This can give rise to the situation where small urgent packets are delayed because big packets (which perhaps should not have been sent) are queued up in front of them. The system sending the big packets is not told to stop sending them so quickly because its packets are being delivered...

    The linked article sounds like people have modified the Linux kernel source to allow people who know how to compile their own kernels to test ideas people have had for reducing the bufferbloat effect on their hardware and to report back their results.

    Does this help explain things a bit?

    1. Re:What bufferbloat is by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

      high latency that can occur in modern network connections due to large buffers in the network

      Nobody ever explained this to me but I was using ping to measure latency on a network where I was actually most interested in ssh. Ping times went something like 10ms, 50ms, 90ms, 130ms... up to about 500ms, then started again at 10ms, 50ms and so on. Maybe some of my pings shared a buffer with a large, periodic data transfer and when that transfer filled a buffer somewhere my latency dropped.

      I am pretty sure the people actually operating the WAN in question had no idea what was going on either.

    2. Re:What bufferbloat is by Lennie · · Score: 4, Informative

      The code changes to the Linux kernel also reduce the size and ill effects of buffers inside the kernel and drivers.

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
  3. Re:what it is by shish · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most traffic throttling algorithms are based on the idea that the router will say "hey, slow down" if a client overloads it -- but when the router has lots of RAM, there is a tendency for it to just keep accepting and accepting, with the client happily pushing data at full speed, while the router is queuing up the data and only moving it upstream very slowly. Because the queues end up being huge, traffic going through that router gets lagged.

    --
    I mod down anyone who says "I will be modded down for this", regardless of the rest of their comment
  4. Re:Two orders of magnitude! ? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most network throughput is at least 80-90% efficient already, so it won't get much faster. It will make it more responsive though, which is good if you're browsing the web, playing an online game or something else interactive.

    I assume this is under load though, because on ping there's not much to be saved. On local sites I have 8-12 ms ping, on slashdot I have 140-150 ms. Since the theoretical round trip in a straight line at light speed is some 110 ms, there's not even room for a 50 ms drop. A lot of weirdness can happen under load though if stuff gets buffered up various places.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  5. Re:what it is by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IMO it's fine for buffers to be very big.

    What routers should do is keep track of how long packets have been in the router (in milliseconds or even microseconds) and use that with QoS stuff (and maybe some heuristics) to figure out which packets to send first, or to drop.

    For example, "bulk/throughput" packets might be kept around for hundreds of milliseconds, but while latency sensitive packets get priority they are dropped if they cannot be sent within tens of milliseconds (then the sender will faster realize that it should slow down).

    --
  6. Re:Two orders of magnitude! ? by mtaht · · Score: 5, Informative

    The core work where we saw latency under load drop by 2 orders of magnitude was in the wireless driver stack on Linux. Examples were the iwl driver (130ms to ~2), and the ath9k driver ( > 200ms to ~d) (and these numbers were for GOOD connections, at high wifi rates. You can get 3 orders of magnitude improvement if you are on a slow wifi connection.) There's a new rate sensitive algorithm for wireless (eBDP) that we are trying in this kernel tree. It's not fully baked yet. 802.11n wireless package aggregation is HARD. That said there's bloat in all the other wired drivers too. We are doing far too much uncontrolled buffering in the kernel - specifically the dma tx ring on many devices - for slower networks. As one example, A gigE interface, connnected to a 3Mbit cable modem - does bad, subtle, things to the stack.

  7. Every packet is sacred by RevWaldo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Every packet is sacred.
    Every packet is great.
    If a packet is wasted,
    TCP gets quite irate.

    Let the heathen drop theirs
    When their RAM is spent.
    TCP shall make them pay for
    Each packet that can't be sent.

    Every packet is wanted.
    To this we are sworn.
    From real-time data from CERN
    To the filthiest of porn.

    Every packet is sacred.
    Every packet is great.
    If a packet is wasted,
    TCP gets quite irate.

    .