Iris-Scan ID Cards For Children In Mexico
An anonymous reader writes "Today the first ID cards that include iris and fingerprint biometric information were registered and issued in the Mexican state of Guanajuato. (Original article in Spanish.) The juicier part of the story is that for now, only children will be enrolled in this national biometric database. It is intended that by December 2012 all children in the country will be registered. The alleged purpose of the new ID card is to hinder the abduction of children and prevent child exploitation. The first ID cards are being issued in the same city that last year started implementing a mandatory iris scan for convicted felons and voluntary members of the public in a Minority Reportesque plan to combat delinquency that features iris readers in public transport and ATMs. This comes from the country that last year attempted and failed to create a national database of mobile phone users, again with the purported intention to tackle extortion and kidnappings."
I think Mexico is one of the few countries in the world where I wouldn't mind a police state with full CCTV coverage, considering the drug wars going on...
Are they picking that date just to fuel the conspiracy theories?
"he alleged purpose of the new ID card is to hinder the abduction of children and prevent child exploitation. "
That IS it's purpose and it will help.
Whether or not you think it's worth it is a different matter.
Something everyone must understand is that this technology implementation is coming, everywhere. And it has a good purpose. Don't waste your time stopping it, use that time to get protection from abuse into law.
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ID cards help fraudsters, they provide a valid "government backed" way of proving something that is not necessarily true. How do spies have multiple identities despite these "fraud proof" ID cards? It is a scam to get people on the databases for a dark future the governments plan. Drip drip, your freedom is being taken from under your noses.
It is more worrying that they are getting at the children, so they get used to these cards and think nothing of them... then when they grow older they will blame their parents for doing nothing about the cards, and enslaving them and future generations.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
> Don't waste your time stopping it, use that time to
> get protection from abuse into law.
You appear to believe that both:
a) it is possible to get populist legislation enacted
b) it is not possible for government to break the law.
Your plan fails on both counts. At least in Mexico and the USA.
Unless they attach this to Hacienda, the only government department that actually works.
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do the records get destroyed once the child reaches the age of majority?
You appear to believe that not telling the government how to do its job properly is a good idea.
If you make bad things illegal, even if the federales do them, and you enforce that, even if the federales are the defendant, then you end up with rule of law.
Make it explicit that there are illegal uses of the identification system, then the identification system will be safer than not having one.
We do a similar thing here all the time with Free Speech. You have a right to it, and you can use it rather blithely, even though it's possible for the government to abuse you for it. But if it tries, you'll scream for an ACLU lawyer and kick their ass.
No reason that Free Speech can't be substituted with ID Abuse in that paragraph.
Id or not, the children will be abducted and exploited. This id will not help children at all.
Ids are useful when people enter a place, not when the leave it.
Thank you.
Sometimes I feel like I'm screaming into the wind.
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A large portion of children are kidnapped by family members who will not otherwise harm the child.
Now when they register for school, people will be notified, or get medicine and so on.
Ids are useful when they are checked. The direction you are going is irrelevant.
No, it won't help all children, but it will help most children.
Contrary to what many vocal people on /. think, laws like these do have a preventative effect. How much? that depends on the situation.
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will now have everyones iris scan. wonderful!
if you dont believe me just google up the NPR stories about the drug war in mexico.
journalists have stopped reporting. politicians have stopped talking. the drug gangs control everything, including, now, your children's biometric data.
so when their heads turn up in a ditch, and their body turns up in a dumpster, you will be able to match the parts together.
this post is not a joke. just google what is going on down there.
"he alleged purpose of the new ID card is to hinder the abduction of children and prevent child exploitation. "
That IS it's purpose and it will help. Whether or not you think it's worth it is a different matter.
Another matter: will help who exactly?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
"and you enforce that"
Well, that's the real trick, isn't it? Who enforces the enforcers?
In the USA, the Legislature is supposed to supervise the Executive.
The last time enforcement happened, Nixon was President.
The next time it was attempted was when Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and a Democrat president committed the "high crime" of lying about an extramarital affair. Basically the "separation of powers" the framers crafted has degenerated into Democrats vs Republicans.
Enforcing laws this way is what we call "selective enforcement," and it is antithetical to the Rule of Law.
In Mexico, the system is more like narcos against narcos, with a few brave martyrs-to-be tilting against the windmills of evil.
I don't know where you think you would find your little law and order utopia, but it sure isn't here. Kidnapping (and the drug war) is a problem due to official corruption, not for lack of tagging our kids like cattle..
Outsider meddling in our domestic politics doesn't help matters any either
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So of course the recorded iris scan will be deleted upon reaching the age of majority. Won't it?
"he alleged purpose of the new ID card is to hinder the abduction of children and prevent child exploitation. "
That IS it's purpose and it will help.
No, it's purpose is security theater: to make the citizens think their government is taking serious steps to combat the security problem.
How are ID cards supposed to stop children abduction or exploitation? "Crap! We can't kidnap and exploit this kid: his irises are catalogued! The police will know he's not ours! Now that kid standing NEXT to him is clearly an orphan and will be untagged. Tie him up and put him in the sweatshop, then any police who notice will think he's OUR kid, along with the other 20."
Or is it more "Stay back evildoers! I have AN ID CARD!!!"
Evildoers: "Oh no! He'll give us papercuts!"
Or is it that most of the people using/kidnapping kids are confused and think they're unclaimed children that are finders keepers?
It's a thoroughly nonsensical idea that will do nothing to stop any real problem, hence the sarcasm in the post.
"he alleged purpose of the new ID card is to hinder the abduction of children and prevent child exploitation. "
That IS it's purpose and it will help.
"Let's grab that kid and sell her as a sex slave."
"We can't! She's got an ID card."
...yeah.
This is the same thinking behind fingerprint kits, which are claimed to help keep your kid from being abducted.
Sorry; the truth of the matter is, they're only useful in identifying kids after they have been abducted, and honestly in some cases dental records would be better for that.
A large portion of children are kidnapped by family members who will not otherwise harm the child. Now when they register for school, people will be notified, or get medicine and so on.
What "large portion of children" are we talking about? I'm going to say if it's under 10% of children abducted, invading the other 90%'s privacy is too high a price. And whatever the numbers, mandatory rather than opt-in is unjustified.
Now we will see lots of children with a missing eye and fingers...
Seems easier to just investigate the family members when the kid goes missing. And if someone wants the kid, needing to show ID for school or a hospital just means that they won't take it there.
Whining about tagging your kids like cattle is a waste of resources when you should be fighting the corruption.
We'll remember that "outsider meddling" crack when you come begging for our troops to end the corruption for you.
Eventually through attrition the entire population will be in the database. Wonder how long until the US government tries the same excuse?
Funny how in Mexico it's children and felons. Scary putting them in the same group with the same rights to privacy.
Thank you for showing you don't have clue. Blinded by arrogance to this day you are... And you wonder why the world doesn't bow down to you..
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Every time I read a universal biometric plan, I think of the old sci-fi book, This Perfect Day by Ira Levin. It was written in that timeless-far-future style that Asimov or Clarke would write, and it describes a day when all people had a nameber (a name/number combined) like "Bob RM04TG5002," all but a few old-timers were genetically indistinguishable by sight, and all governance was centralized into an all-knowing UniComp. Everyone had to ask UniComp for everything by touching their permanent bracelet to a scanner at every opportunity. Of course the main character was quirky and rebelled.
As a kid reading it, it really taught me the concept of willful non-conformism and individuality. Other stories like Caves of Steel touched on parts of it, but this was the central idea here. Worth a quick read if you want to grab it. Don't thank me, thank Uni.
[
"Whining" does not mean "caring about something more than I do". And yes, that IS what you meant.
Govt. Dept lackey: (tap tap tappity tap) Here's one, I'll just pass the detail onto our collection agency.
Would-be Parent: Collection agency? But we've no intention of defaulting on the payment of our fees.
Govt. Dept lackey: Oh Sorry - I meant "Orphanage". Your son will be available ... oh ... Thursday.
Pretty sure it's just a national ID scheme that's been passed under a false flag op. A card won't stop someone being kidnapped and smuggled abroad, and in fifteen years those children won't be children anymore. Fingerprints and biometrics already on the database, cards already issued, .gov passes a new regulation requiring the card to find employment. Game over.
A few years ago, the whole elector's database was illegaly sold to private companies, including an American one, and as a result most people keep receiving unwanted calls from their banks up to 7 or 8 times a day trying to sell you insurance over the phone or asking for overdue payments, same from other companies, sometimes for years even if it was a clerical error. Last year the government tried to force everybody to register their cell phones since most people opt for prepaid cards to avoid fraudulent charges from Carlos Slim's (richest man in the world) Telcel company. About half the users naively did. Now they're receiving extorsion calls from people claiming they've kidnapped a relative of yours. Most calls have been traced to prisions where influential prisioners have their little kingdoms. Of course that has been a fact of life with land lines too, but up to now there was no way to know which cell phone number youi have. Now they have all your personal info since the registration is tied to the equivalent of your SS number (CURP), who also links you to info on your bank balances. And now, oh my my, the same government whose corrupt politicians, police chiefs, and even state governors have been found to protect kidnappers wants you to register all the info of your children in one convenient big database...and the company in charge is owned by a president's in-law (Hildebrando)...wow...can't wait to comply...!
And today's 100% of the children become 100% of the adults in several years. It is more like a grandfather clause. There is no way any government will ever delete data once it is collected. Not gonna happen.
In any case, it is interesting that they would collect an iris scan. I *hate* the idea of a government collecting any "latent"-able biometrics from anyone not *convicted* of a serious crime (see below). If one method HAD to be chosen, however, a retinal scan would be the best (iris might be second best). Best from an ID standpoint, and best from a civil liberties standpoint.
Why? Because you can't be framed using retinal data (unless you regularly leave your eyes lying around). It can't be stolen nor "planted". You can't be covertly scanned without your knowledge. It's data can't be easily forced from you. It is incredibly hard to fake. It is incredibly hard to alter. Trying to eradicate it from your body would have a serious negative impact. You don't go around unintentionally leaving your retina signature all over the place like fingerprints or DNA. And DNA can reveal more about you than just identity.
I don't give a rat's ass about the world bowing down to us. If I had my way, we'd build a big wall on our southern border and shoot anyone who climbs over or tunnels under it, stop all foreign aid to your failed state (and most other countries as well), legalize pot and decriminalize all other drugs, stop all trade with you, and let you morons kill yourselves. Your culture worships violence, crime, and Santa Muerte (the Saint of Death), your people are more violent than just about any on earth, and you should be isolated and left to your own devices. I want nothing to do with your disgusting "culture".
Whining about "outsider meddling" is funny. If you don't like your politicians listening to outsiders, then vote for ones who don't. If voting isn't working, then try a revolution; the brave people of Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya put up with a lot less than the barbarism your people experience every day, and rose up and put an end to it (or are in the process of it in the case of Libya). The brave people of Bahrain and Yemen are doing the same, and other countries in the region will probably go the same way soon, with those people sick of their governments. Your people instead will happily stand by and let the cartels take over, aided by their corrupt allies in government.
No, it's an excuse for tracking _everyone_. "Think of the children" has been a rallying cry for numerous attacks on civil liberties, free speech, anonymity, and a general desire to have full access to everyone's personal matters.
Most child abductions are by relatives: divorced parents pulling children across state lines because they disagree with divorce court proceedings, often with good reason, is one of the most common sources of child abduction. Tnad this will do very little about that unless the _states_ agree to exchange data and support extradition proceedings, and there are excellent cases of why this is exactly the wrong thing to do for the child.
Such "child tracking" and the necessary national tracking database for it to be effective is also a direct violation of states' rights, which have set standards for custody and child care on a state by state basis.
To the tune of "Spam! Lovely Spam!"...
Borg, borg, borg, borg, borg, borg, borg, borg, assimilation, borg, borg, borg, borg, borg.....
They missed the chance to say "ojo-con-el-gobierno department".
A large portion of children are kidnapped by family members who will not otherwise harm the child.
You can't be certain of that.
But it is particularly dangerous to compare the U.S. - where extortion abductions are almost unknown - to a country where kidnapping for profit has become big business.
Colombia was once Latin America's kidnapping capital, where Marxist guerrillas took hostages and held them for months, even years, in recondite jungle camps, using them as political bargaining chips or human shields. But in recent years, as drug cartels in Mexico have branched out into other forms of crime, kidnapping there has become a lucrative cash industry.
As kidnappings for ransom surge in Mexico, victims' families and employers turn to private U.S. firms instead of law enforcement
Your culture worships violence, crime.. your people are more violent than just about any on earth, and you should be isolated and left to your own devices.
Coming from an American... That's... interesting...
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Once the ID system is in place, any protections can be eliminated from law with the stroke of a pen. Or simply ignored by the government, a la Bush and US wiretapping.
How so? It's your broken culture that produces the violence seen here. Sure, we have some problems with violence, but nothing remotely like what's seen there. Moreover, when we glamorize violence in our Hollywood movies, it's about "good guys" shooting up "bad guys". People cheer when the criminals get killed.
In Mexico, it's the criminals who are considered heroes: http://www.khou.com/news/Narco-culture-glamorizes-violent-lifestyle-in-Mexico-and-in-Texas-116571258.html
Mexican musicians write songs ("narco corridos") about how wonderful drug traffickers are. Narco cinema glamorizes drug smuggling. Hit men record gruesome killings and upload them to YouTube. Basically, your culture thinks crime is a good thing. No nation can ever be successful when its citizens think crime and violence against innocents is something to be respected and cherished.
There is something fundamentally broken about your culture and your people, and if I had my way, you would have no contact with anyone else in the world.
(Mr Diego, we thing you are Sr Domingo, and here is your execution)
and negative failures
(Snr Diego-the-ceramic-salesman, you and your truck of ($excuses$) are welcome, and since you have a US-DEA iris, we'll give you these informers names too. May I swallow?
will happen.
Has your society attempted to understand why one person thinks that they are better than (and more valuable than) AnyRandomclient, who is surveilled.
Oh, obviously time is important. People aren't important, but that is obvious. Who is best?
[self: GLUG]
Who is valuable ? ... Big question.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
It's your broken culture that produces the violence seen here. Sure, we have some problems with violence, but nothing remotely like what's seen there.
*cough* Yeah, we know. You've off shored that too.
I don't believe I've ever seen anybody so swallowed up in the media trap. You are so high on the blue pill you literally don't see beyond your own skin. One thing you do show, your politicians are made in your image... Thank you for a most educational perspective. Pero huele muy feo el pedorro
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You're thinking of abductions in the USA. In Mexico, they're more likely to rape the children, as raping young girls is a national pastime there. Then they'll kill them. Biometric ID might be useful in matching the severed body parts together however.
"You know - for kids"
Counted sheep are eaten by wolfs too.
Say I am a kidnapper. Do you think that I would care whether your kid has ID, a cellphone and a personal tracer? I will still take your kid. If it is for money, those items will be easier for me to determine the price. If it is for personal lust, then those items could be seen as trophies or as lust.
In Belgium many kids have ID cards and phones. Kids still disappear. The majority because they run away from home. Then there are those that are kidnapped by the other parent.
The absolute minority gets kidnapped, raped and murdered (single digits in numbers, not even percentages) by strangers.
Most abuse towards children AND adults is by people they know. There also those cards won't help anything.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
....Right? =|
Once the ID system is in place, any protections can be eliminated from law with the stroke of a pen. Or simply ignored by the government, a la Bush and US wiretapping.
Which is why as soon as they implement such a system in the US, I'm moving to Mexico. Why? Because for about $100 cash I can bribe an official who works with the ID system to dis-associate my biometrics with my real identity, and attach them to a fake one. Then they'll take the biometrics from a dead person, and attach those to my former identity. Voila! Now I'm a completely new person, and I have a 100% legitimate ID to prove that I was born and raised a Mexican citizen. And anybody who comes looking for Snidely Whiplash will find out he's dead... and they'll even be able to visit my grave, exhume "my" corpse, and positively verify that it was indeed Snidely who was put in that hole. If I'm really paranoid, I'll spend another $100 to have the guy who did it "disappeared".
The other bonus? I'll be able to smoke weed without having to worry about spending more time in jail than a child rapist.
... but in the future it will be used for absolutely everything.
Our systems will be monitoring you, your travel, your transactions and your communication. You will comply or face the consequences... and there will be nothing you will be able to do about it.
> your people are more violent than just about any on earth
Oh common, wetback's are bad but their better than niggers any day.
A bit of a special case. The Belgian police are so lazy, corrupt and incompetent they'd make an Indian blush. Remember when the back door to a police station was left open and a convicted paedophile walked out? Remember when they heard the imprisoned kids behing a false wall and did nothing? The one who crashed his car while drunk and tried to get subordinates to cover it up?
Until you fix that (i.e. fire the vast majority of them, and jail a fair few) nothing else is going to work.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Child abduction does appear to be a problem in mexico. A larger question is what happens to the biometric data when they become adults. I suspect it WON'T be deleted, and I suspect those people won't have that option offered to them. Meaning that the entire country will (in one generation) be biometric scanned. Think of the children is such an easy way to conn people into giving up their freedom.
And yet, no one on this site seems to ever think of the following:
Or is it more "Stay back evildoers! I have the constitution!"
Evildoers: "Oh no! He'll give us papercuts!"
Because for about $100 cash I can bribe an official...
That was maybe 30 years ago. You need between 5 and 10 thousand now.. if you want a professional.. But hell, you can buy an American with that kind of money, and get better service..
Government is corrupt no matter where you are. Politicians are bought and sold like trinkets at the bizarre. The Mexicans just happened to be on the wrong end of the big stick. I hear they want to start locking you up for downloading movies and music.. Justice at its best, it seems
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Haha, sure it is. Will they be erasing data once the children reach 18 years of age? No? Why not?
It's the lawsuits, and subsequent draining of money, or overturning of laws that is the teeth behind the constitution. And it only works so long as the evildoers respect the rule of law, which people who kidnap kids don't.
It is very easy to falsify documents over here in Mexico. Actually, it's as easy as going to the registry office and using an ATM-like machine that gives out birth certificates to anyone who asks and from there you can get a whole new set of documents for yourself with someone else's name on them. Also, the one and only documentation that government agencies accept for a child is their birth certificate. For lesser stuff, the school id could be sufficient, but for official matters, you need the birth certificate or the passport (which again, you obtain with the birth certificate).
So how is this related to the abduction of kids? Well, easy: If you kidnap a kid and take him to another state, chances are no one will recognize him. Get him false papers and you can claim he's your kid and from then on, no one will bother you. Now, with these new measures, it'll be harder to falsify the documents and it will be easier for the government to recognize this child when the abducter is trying to go through any official place that requires and ID, for now the birth certificate won't be enough.
I'm not saying it will work and I'm not saying it's not security theater. It might be. I'm just saying that there's a good logic behind it.
(Mexican speaking here)
The image of Mexico in the USA is that of a wild land, full of violence, full of smuggling and –as you say– taking narcos as role models. It is far from that. Even if we have seen a huge setback in legality and we have got far more nervous in the last couple of years (since the current president started his mandate, as legitimate as GWBush's first)... Most of the country is far from what you say. You are refering to a panorama similar to the one presented in Luis Estrada's El Infierno (Hell) movie. Please keep in mind that movie is a fantasy, a literary/cinematographic exercise on what the author feels could happen. It is cruel and raw, and we do see lots of such things, but the country is far bigger than that situation. The gruesome part is (and you can find an obvious correlation..) mostly along the border we share with the US... On a widening strip of land, already several hundreds of kilometers wide.
Still, no, our culture does not condone or glorify such activities. Of course, people living in the very much impoverished and arid Northern region, when facing the opportunity of getting some money by joining a drug gang, have experienced a shift of values. And I do know many people who enjoy the narcocorridos, the music you refer to, but as a recreational (even funny) way. I know (and I hope I don't ever) anybody who takes a capo narco as a role model.
So, replying to your last sentence: There is something fundamentally broken with the inequity in our society. By far, most of Mexico's 110,000,000 people are not what you describe. Even more, most of us feel it is unbelievable a country which claims to be advanced and peaceful (and I'm looking over the border now) has no gun control whatsoever, and such a huge number of drug addicts. Were it not for the ease of buying guns in the USA, our gangs would not be so stupidly heavily armed. And were it not for the amount of drugs demanded in the USA, there would not be all that great business opportunity. And, of course, we sense a huge disparity: How come we have all those cartels smuggling drugs to the USA, but in the USA there is never more than a small-scale distributor captured? Logically, there are strong orgnized drug rings in your country. But the war has been pushed to ours.
It is not related to children being more abduction-prone (or not so much, anyway)... It is because of a legal controversy.
In Mexico, we do have one federally issued ID document: The voting card. It is a document I have often criticized, as it lacks many important controls - but it has proven enough for its main designed use: Identifying yourself at the voting table. It does not have too much personal information, as it is not needed, and it is not terrible that it is relatively easy to forge, as it has to be compared with the printed copy the voting booths have with them. Yes, as an ID document it sucks – It has some information many of us would rather not carry so prominently (my full address), as it is required for verifying you are in the right place to vote, and lacks many locks to make it a good ID document.
Last year, Secretaría de Gobernación (lets say... the Inner Issues Ministry?) proposed this new universal ID card. However, as there is already an authority legally required to emit the ID document for every citizen, it was ruled the two documents would compete and neither would reach full coverage.
There have also been many cases of information leak: The full voters database has been found for sale in the black market. Many people (me included) don't want to submit our biometric information to a database prone to be stolen – At the same time, I recognize we will have to. And that information (for me) is already in the hands of the USA embassy (as I have a USA visa), parts of it is with the banks, and... Well, I cannot assume anymore I am the only one with access to my fingerprints (although iris scans are far less common). I do not strongly oppose this anymore, although I still don't really trust Gobernación with its custody.
But yes, I fully agree... Issuing a strong ID document to minors is just the first step towards making it mandatory and universal. What has to be done, however, is to do it in an ordered way... As the fears of dillution (many adults not bothering about getting the voter card as they already have the ID card or viceversa, or people not notifying of their address changes to both agencies) are not something to be ignored.
Come on... Mexicans enjoy that? Please have some sensibility while posting.
A tiny percentage of our population is sickly violent — And we have not yet invaded a foreign country where we can ship them so they just kill people with different ethnic origins. So we have to cope with sickly violent people. The country is not completely invaded and rotten (i.e. Mexico City, where I live, is just a regular big city, where I can walk with more or less the same confidence I would mostly in any big city in the world. Really.). We do not find bodybags everyday when shopping groceries. We do not have shootings on the street instead of nice TV movies.
Mexico has several bad things, some of them severely bad... But it is very far from what you imagine. The images you mention are sadly becoming frequent. But they are targetted between hyperviolent groups. The population, the people really expecting to see this country day after day for many years (I doubt the regular thug expects to live beyond a year or two), does get as terrified with this as you get when you see the racial crimes or insane shootings that have made the USA so famous.
As a Mexican all that I can say is that I will not have children in this country, I will find a way to migrate and have them somewhere else. I don't usually care about the whole security theater that this country does, but I will not have my children biometric information stored on some government database, no, it is just not ever going to happen.
I never thought I could be more ashamed of this country. Don't let this happen in your countries people.
No, no, you are mistaken here (at least related to what we see in this country. Yes, there are some robberies at gunpoint (I haven't thankfully ever seen one) – But when people are "picked up" in the streets for kidnapping and similar issues, it's most usually done via numeric superiority, surprise, and just body force. Many people will rather risk being killed by a bullet than being held for ransom, for the huge cost it means (monetary and psychological) to them and to their families.
Our main problem with guns here is the violence between the drug cartels. And yes, I agree with you - I meant the "thick" regions around the border. And that thickness has reached Sinaloa (I'd say it's about 500Km from the border) - Sinaloa has historically been a very problematic state, one where the drug lords have always been very powerful, due to more reasons I can write in a reasonably short reply (and more than I am familiar with).
As for your last point, regarding old and not-powerful weapons: During the last couple of days (1 or 2 weeks), the radio news show I listen to in the morning has been giving quite a bit of attention to the Fast and Furious operation – an investigation carried out by US authorities, without Mexican knowledge, allowing a group of drug dealers to smuggle into Mexico over 1900 high power weapons, attempting to track their distribution. Again, I cannot get into further details here, but it's been quite a scandal this side of the border. But don't worry, we will forget about it very soon and continue doing... Business as usual.
Your suggested course of action sounds good, I'm eagerly awaiting the government of CANADA to follow it.