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Legacy From the 1800s Leaves Tokyo In the Dark

itwbennett writes "East Japan entered its fifth day of power rationing on Friday, with no end to the planned blackouts in sight. The local electrical utility can't make up the shortfall by importing power from another region, though, because Japan lacks a national power grid, a consequence of a decision made in the late 1800s."

23 of 322 comments (clear)

  1. Time to get out those telescopes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Dark (and hopefully) clear skies...

  2. I'll save you from reading TFA by GameboyRMH · · Score: 5, Informative

    Half of Japan used 50Hz and the other side uses 60Hz. They have three conversion stations with a combined capacity of just 1GW, so power from one side can't power the other.

    --
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    1. Re:I'll save you from reading TFA by swanzilla · · Score: 4, Funny

      Half of Japan used 50Hz and the other side uses 60Hz. They have three conversion stations with a combined capacity of just 1GW, so power from one side can't power the other.

      Side note: the only power source capable of generating 1.21 gigawatts of electricity is a bolt of lightning.

    2. Re:I'll save you from reading TFA by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Funny

      Half of Japan used 50Hz and the other side uses 60Hz. They have three conversion stations with a combined capacity of just 1GW, so power from one side can't power the other.

      Side note: the only power source capable of generating 1.21 gigawatts of electricity is a bolt of lightning.

      In 1955, sure.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  3. I'll bet ... by PPH · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... this situation changes. And Japan will leap to the forefront of HVDC transmission gear manufacturing.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:I'll bet ... by adonoman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anywhere you need to transmit power a long distance - you get less power loss over the distance. In Canada a decent portion of our power generation is from hydroelectric dams in the north - 1000 km from the main demands for that power. We have 450,000-volt DC lines running that distance. Any tech that makes that transmission more efficient, or reduces maintenance costs at either end would be snapped up quickly.

  4. Ah, the beauty of standards... by wandazulu · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...so many to choose from.

  5. Re:if we get to 88Hz can we go back in time to fix by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Funny

    if we get to 88Hz can we go back in time to fix this?

    Boy, imagine how we'd laugh if the punchline was funny!

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  6. What's it like in Japan? Will this cause changes? by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Very interesting article. I had no idea that Japan was effectively split in half thanks to 50Hz and 60Hz power grids. So does every home that is hooked up to 50Hz have a converter to switch it to 60Hz or vice versa since some electronic devices are rather dependent on the AC frequency? What happens when somebody decides to move across the country from one power source to the other? Do you just throw out all your old clocks that relied on the AC frequency for its timing source and buy new ones? I also wonder if the disaster unfolding there might encourage them to try to migrate the entire country to a single standard, whether 50 or 60. It has certainly demonstrated a major problem with their current infrastructure...

  7. Re:So how does TV work? by localroger · · Score: 4, Informative

    TV's don't sync to the power line. They convert incoming power to DC then work from that.

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  8. Re:Japan Does Have a National Power Grid by Heian-794 · · Score: 4, Informative

    They do, but they don't have the capacity to convert the amounts of power that the Kanto side suddenly needs. It's unfortunate that they didn't invest in more conversion capacity before this disaster, but then again, it probably would have been viewed as a waste of money, as few people could have imagined a power shortage of this scale before.

    A few years ago the government began urging offices to keep their indoor temperatures at 28 degrees C (82 F) to save energy; there are doubts as to its efficacy as the increased sweat and lethargy bring greater water usage (more laundry) and lowered productivity.

    I despised this program but could certainly endure it this year when there are so many people suffering from a lot more than an overheated working environment, but the silver lining is that when power capacity does finally get back up -- the Fukushima reactors were nearing end-of-life and new ones were already scheduled for 2013 -- regular folks might be able to work in air-conditioned offices again. After what we've been through, it sure will feel like a luxury.

  9. Re:Well.... by Intron · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They can't really change it now, can they?

    The wire doesn't care very much. In the areas that are destroyed, they have to buy all new equipment anyway. Seems like a good time to standardize.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  10. Free Market by dcollins · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FTA: "Japan's electricity system got its start in 1883 with the founding of Tokyo Electric Light Co. Demand quickly grew and in 1895 the company bought electricity generation equipment from Germany's AEG. In west Japan the same evolution was taking place, and Osaka Electric Lamp imported equipment from General Electric."

    Wait: I thought the free market solved all problems and never needed government intervention.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  11. Why don't they go to Tachi Station? by bhcompy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tachi Station sells power converters.

  12. Re:What's it like in Japan? Will this cause change by xleeko · · Score: 3, Informative

    Other than poorly designed clocks, what other devices actually care about the power line frequency?

    Motors. Big motors, like the kind you find in your furnace, A/C compressor, elevators, and other places. Nobody cares about the consumer electronics because all that stuff either auto-ranges or can be manually switched. But big industrial equipment is everywhere and lasts a long time.

  13. Re:So how does TV work? by stox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    TV's used to sync to the power line until well into the 1960's. The tolerances needed for color put an end to that,

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
  14. Time to build big extension cords by nido · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If the USS Ronald Reagan had a couple Mighty Pumps in its inventory, these could be attached to the catapult steam lines. An electrical generator could be attached to the pump's drive shaft, generating power. Then they'd just run a cable to the shore to power the cities affected by the disaster.

    The USS Enterprise has 310 megawatts of thermal power. I don't know how much of this could be sent to the catapult lines... Nimitz-class carriers have 2 reactors instead of 8, and generate ~190 MW of thermal power.

    There is some historical legacy for using an aircraft carrier to power a city:

    ... Each of Lexington’s four electrical generators could produce 35,200 kilowatts. All together, the generators were powerful enough to fulfill the electricity requirements of a decent sized city. And, for 30 days that is exactly what she did. ...

    -When USS Lexington Powered A City

    Lots of people have found my site this week (/. post on Sunday, google, etc), and the link about the MYT engine was one of the more-commonly followed links. This page has better information about the MYT pump/engine:

    The MYT [Massive Yet Tiny] Engine as a pump/compressor purportedly exceeds existing pumps/compressors in providing massive pressure, volume, and flow -- all in one unit. This attribute makes it ideal for geothermal energy, among many other such applications.

    -Angel Labs eyes geothermal for MYT Engine application

    When Disaster Strikes, Send the Enterprise. I just did my first newspaper interview this morning. :)

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    1. Re:Time to build big extension cords by hawguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reactors at Fukushima generate over 3,000MW of power, and that's not the only plant that's offline. Maybe if you had 10 aircraft carriers, 3GW of generators and these magic MYT Engines (or at least conventional turbines) *and* some place to plug them in that would be a viable solution. Oh, and the vast majority of an aircraft carrier's steam output goes to the turbines that drive the props - how will you get that steam up above the water line to your generators? Maybe you can just jack up the back of the carrier out of the water and connect the generators to the prop shafts. Then you "only" need to find a generator that runs at prop shaft speed or a gearbox to convert the speed.

    2. Re:Time to build big extension cords by hcdejong · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most compact nuclear power plants around (naval units used in submarines) weigh about 1000 tons. These use highly enriched uranium, so they would be seen as a security risk.
      Containerizing this unit would mean at least 50 40-ft containers (with each container at its maximum weight), you probably need more because most containers won't reach this density. That would give something like 80 MW. Considering that a 20-ft container can hold at least a 1-MW diesel generator with its fuel supply, having a containerized nuclear reactor would seem to hold little advantage over diesel gensets.

      There's also the problem that you really want the reactor vessel and the primary coolant loop as one unit, since you can't easily disconnect these once the reactor has been active and has irradiated the primary loop.
      Now the reactor vessel alone is larger than a standard container. You'd end up with a very large and heavy undivisible central unit.

      You'd be better off leaving the reactor on a ship and just running a cable ashore. For smaller power needs, existing containerized diesel gensets are a good solution.

    3. Re:Time to build big extension cords by hawguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For real? How to get the steam above the waterline? You do realize this is high pressure steam (~1200 psi), and that traditional catapults use steam in the first place. Besides, steam rises!

      Oh sorry, my bad, I guess they just need to open some hatches and let the steam waft out of the boilers to the surface.

      I was under the impression that 300MW worth of high pressure steam would take a sizeable pipe (or pipes), and running that pipe from the reactor boiler to someplace where you could put a generator would require cutting holes in many decks of the aircraft carrier or cutting a hole in the side of the boat.

  15. Re:So how does TV work? by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Informative

    >>>TV's don't sync to the power line. They convert incoming power to DC then work from that.

    That is so horribly wrong. "The NTSC field refresh frequency in the black-and-white system originally exactly matched the nominal 60 Hz frequency of alternating current power used in the United States. Matching the field refresh rate to the power source avoided intermodulation (also called beating), which produces rolling bars on the screen......

    "Synchronization of the refresh rate to the power incidentally helped kinescope cameras record early live television broadcasts, as it was very simple to synchronize a film camera to capture one frame of video on each film frame by using the alternating current frequency to set the speed of the synchronous AC motor-drive camera.....

    "The actual figure of 525 lines was chosen as a consequence of the limitations of the vacuum-tube-based technologies of the day. In early TV systems, a master voltage-controlled oscillator was run at twice the horizontal line frequency, and this frequency was divided down by the number of lines used (in this case 525) to give the field frequency (60 Hz in this case). This frequency was then compared with the 60 Hz power-line frequency and any discrepancy corrected by adjusting the frequency of the master oscillator." - wiki

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  16. Re:Free Market by antifoidulus · · Score: 5, Informative

    However east and west Japan were still relatively independent even in the 1890s. It wasn't really until after the Russo-Japanese war that the country really started to become just that, a unified country. Humans have this odd way of thinking about countries, namely that the government/political structures and geographical boundaries of countries today are the same as they were over 100 years ago, they are often much different. Japan was very much like Germany, essentially a very loosely affiliated set of states bound by geographical, linguistic, and cultural ties but often separated by bitter political and military rivalries. I doubt that even if someone had the foresight to force both sides to use the same standards they would have had the political capital to make it a reality. That sort of political capital didn't really exist until after the Russo-Japanese war towards the end of the Meiji era.

  17. The Invisible Hand of the Market strikes again! by fantomas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Looks like the invisible hand of the free market really dropped the ball that time....