Slashdot Mirror
Japan Reluctant To Disclose Drone Footage of Fukushima Plant
garymortimer writes with word that "footage taken from an RQ-4 Global Hawk drone was passed on to the Japanese government with permission for public release from the US Air Force. US military sources said that the decision to release the footage — or not — was up to the Japanese government." The Japanese government, though, has thus far chosen not to release the high-resolution footage of the tsunami-damaged Fukushima nuclear plant.
they don't want the footage of godzilla to get out
By being secretive, they're letting rumors run rampant. It will surface at some point anyways, so they should just assume that and be more transparent about it.
As it is now, I've heard of everything from 5 deaths and 20 wounded with all reactors in meltdown to nothing going on whatsoever. Uncertainty breeds fear.
According to TFA, the footage is being analyzed by nuclear power experts. What would be the point of disclosing it to the public -- lurid fascination?
Maybe the Japanese government just thinks the Japanese public's attention would be better directed toward rebuilding the nation in the aftermath of the earthquake and tsunami, which cause much more destruction and loss of life than this nuclear incident is ever likely to.
Breakfast served all day!
Having just attended training in emergency preparedness, we trained not to release details, so the Japanese are just following the standard script. They also said never lie, or you will never be believed in the future. They seem to be following the script. (Actually they are giving more details that I would expect. Now I can’t give any more details of the training. Sorry. )
This sounds like last summer's offshore oil well leak all over again. Sooner or later the truth will come out. Trying to hide things now only makes it look like they're trying to cover something up.
Yup, corporations being corporate.
Where's Jullian Assange when you need him?
Take Nobody's Word For It.
Or maybe they're worried that the news will be inflated and twisted. Have you seen the pictures of the reactor post-hydrogen explosion? Looks nasty, right? News companies the world over will read that as "serious damage to the reactor". While that is true, there's a distinction between the reactor and the reactor chamber itself. If the reactor chamber was damaged seriously, we'd all be five kinds of screwed. It's an easy mistake to make, and if that mistake IS made, it causes a media firestorm that takes months (if not years) to cool down.
Sent from my CR-48
Folks - I spent a lot of my youth with the Weapons Effects Test group. We detonated weapons in the Pacific and at the Nevada Proving grounds. Bing/Google Upshot Knothole and Buster Jangle to see recently released footage of these tests. Then consider that the Japanese event doesn't even come close to releasing the radioactive material these tests released into the atmosphere. Like I say - this is a total non-event...
If thats the case cant some Japanese technophile just capture and broadcast the signal over the web?
Or did USAF fix that hole and now encrypts everything?
This is a disaster and a tragedy to the nation of Japan.
This footage does not constitute news - it's voyeurism plain and simple. If it helps the Japanese in some way, that's great.
Maybe we should have high-resolution footage of the aftermath of every fatal car accident. It's news, right - we are entitled to have our interest piqued by the suffering and despair of others.
I might have to call this one bullshit. I briefly checked Asahi, Mainichi and Yomiuri, the three major newspapers in Japan. Only Mainichi has this news. And the reporter, as far as I can gather, seems stationed in the vicinity of the Edwards AFB and seems quite a bit fascinated by the Global Hawk. So, what she reported may not be completely untrue, but can be that some facts are twisted. The report at least does not seem to be based on a press release. So, the US Air Force may, in principle, have agreed to provide the data from the drone, but it could go anywhere.
The operation at the Fukushima 1 plant involves various organization: TEPCO, JSDF, various Fire Departments, some sort of atomic watchdog most likely reporting to some kind of ministry, and probably some organization reporting to the cabinet. I still have not figured out who is ultimately in charge. My vague impression is that the TEPCO plans, _asks_ any of the above organization that they think fit to do that job, and the said organization does the job. Not very efficient. This may be partially the reason why they seem to take so long to perform a next step.
So, the data from the US Air Force may be given to someone in Japan, someone in the government. But I can imagine the person who was (being) given the data might not even know to whom to forward it. It may be being forwarded to the people on the ground and used for planning, assessment, etc., but they may not even think to use the footage in the next press conference; they may want to have a written warrant saying it is OK to release it, and so on. Every morning (Japan time), two organizations (TEPCO and something akin to IAEA but Japan domestic) and the cabinet spokesman are having press conferences to report on the power plant and I have yet to understand who is ultimately responsible for the operation.
What I'm trying to say is that the reason we have not seen the footage from the Global Hawk has more to do with the complexity of the operation than some intention to hide something from the public.
As a postscript, in the past ten days or so, I have learned to read information coming from Japan very carefully. Often even major newspapers make blatant faulty statements, often having the effect of instilling fear in the public. I find it distasteful. Yet I find hope in the Japanese netizens: when they encounter a bald statement, it has become their custom to ask for the source, a la Wikipedia, and when the source cannot be shown, the statement is determined a hoax and not further propagated. They seem to have learned the danger of hoaxes and misinformation...for most part.
Does anyone have timelines on how quickly information on TMI and Chernobyl was disseminated for comparison? If the Japanese are ahead of the curve we should shut-up, if not then we can continue to feel smug discussing how evil corporations are, Japanese feudal power, or whatever Red/Blue opinions we have.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
Fox News showed a map of the nuclear power plants in Japan. On that map, there was a suspect nuclear plant named "Shibuya Eggman". Turns out that's the name of a nightclub in the Shibuya area of Tokyo.
Now, how is that relevant? Give the fear-mongering media a piece of footage that can be misinterpreted to induce panic, and they won't waste a minute before misrepresenting it to induce panic. Sensationalism is how they get their ratings. The people of Tokyo leaving their jobs in fear and taking to the hills is NOT what Japan's battered economy needs right now. If you ask me, we simply shouldn't read too much into the authorities' actions just yet!
For back ground reference: we do have some areal footage (source: TEPCO) and a bit of footage from the ground (source: MOD)
I think banning people for what they're posting (unless it's spam or CP) is equally petty.
Regardless of your political persuation, you can make better decisions with more accurate information than with propoganda. From NPR/PBS, you will get information with a certain degree of accuracy. From sources like Fox, you will get nothing that will help you make a better decision - there is no journalism at Fox, just right wing, "money=merit", fear-based propoganda. From NPR/PBS, I get information that is at least in the realm of an honest effort at journalism, and that gives me value as I try to figure out the complex issues under discussion. I'm totally happy with the tiny fraction of my tax $ that go to Public Broadcasting. I get value for that tax every single day. Wish I could say the same about the rest of my taxes.
What are you, 10-years old. Come on, people...
There's been an enormous astroturf effort by the pro-nuclear brigade.
You'll find it next to impossible to have a sensible discussion without being swamped by godzilla jokes, comments that coal power emits more isotopes, that levels are lower than x,y,z or Chernoble (as though that was a good metric for personal safety).
The simple answer is that the authorities, as evidenced by this article, are not releasing enough information for individuals to make sensible decisions. That's probably resulting in more fear, panic and cost than releasing real data for open analysis would. Likewise, the dismissive astroturf comments and efforts to bury valuable discussion just show how little we can trust the nuclear power industry to manage events without open scrutiny.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
The only thing that is going to stop the wrath of these reactors is to throw the occasional virgin in.
Have gnu, will travel.
Cool! You're probably going to end up with superpowers.
Lucky.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Which also turned out to be a tempest in a teapot, like this whole episode will.
I think thats more indicative of the short attention span of news media - once the disaster passes, they lose interest and move on to the next sensational headline, with only minor followup on the previous disaster.
There are still serious effects from the gulf spill but since the oil isn't washing up on beaches anymore it doesn't make for interesting news footage.
I think it's funny. I'm like an onion. I have layers. I can simultaneously laugh at a Godzilla joke, feel horrible about the tragedy, send a donation, and buy a product made in Japan. Gilbert Gottfried's jokes on the other hand were tasteless and not funny.
I still cannot find the droids I am looking for...
I'm not so sure it's an "astroturf brigade" so much as it's a general technocratic mindset that because nuclear energy is "high-tech" it's got to be the answer for everything and anyone who questions it is just silly.
Personally, I think at best nuclear energy is a transitional source of energy. If we're still trying to use fission to charge our iPhones in 40 years, it will mean that we've really failed, both socially and technologically. But as long as we don't let "private industry" be in charge of it, I can see it being used to help get us off of fossil fuels.
I notice Germany is generating something like the equivalent of at least 5 nuclear power plants worth of energy with solar panels on housetops. Yes, it was heavily subsidized, but no more than nuclear energy and it's heading quickly toward break even. And from what I've heard those panels are good for decades. I'm sure it pisses off the power companies to no end because it's hard to put a meter on the sun. And I'm pretty sure Germany is one of the cloudier countries in Europe. Now that actually sounds like the beginning of a solution.
But no comic book characters got superpowers from accidents in a solar panel factory, so the majority of Slashdot users will still prefer nukes. And "Duke SolarPanel-em Forever" just doesn't have a ring to it.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Agreed. Godzilla is serious business.
Honestly, though, it's hard to take the "oh no, everyone panic" attitude seriously when you're a mere 93 miles away and posting on Slashdot.
from Wikipedia:
"From 1946 through 1958 the United States military conducted numerous atmospheric nuclear weapons tests, including hydrogen bomb tests, primarily at Bikini Atoll, about 120 kilometers from Rongelap Atoll. On March 1, 1954, the test of the Castle Bravo hydrogen bomb generated radioactive fallout which killed a crewmember of a Japanese fishing boat, the Daigo Fukury Maru, and contaminated Rongelap, with snow-like irridated debris falling up to 2cm high over the island. A United States military medical team visited the island with geiger counters the day after the fallout fell, but left without telling the islanders of the danger they had been exposed to.[1] Nearly all inhabitants of the atoll subsequently complained of itchiness and sore skin; they vomitted, suffered from diarrhea and fatigue. Their symptoms also included burning eyes and swelling of the neck, arms, and legs.[2] The inhabitants were forced to abandon the islands, leaving all their belongings, three days after the test. They were relocated to Kwajalein for medical treatment.[3][2] The United States was subsequently accused of having used the inhabitants in medical research (without receiving consent) to study the effects of nuclear exposure.[1]"
I agree that we have seen poor reporting by experts on the issues.
Very early on when they had a Hydrogen bubble, I knew where it came from long before they announced it. Zirconium is flammable in water and steam. In short, it oxidizes. When lots of it oxidizes, a lot of Hydrogen is released. Simple chemistry. I find it PR that they say it "Oxidized" instead of burnt.
In a nutshell, I knew the cladding that holds the fuel pellets caught fire, both in the fueled reactors and in the pond on #4 which was recently de-fueled. Air is not required to burn Zirconium. Oxygen from Water, CO2, or other sources works fine to support combustion.
I have seen a Zirconium fire. It burns fine underwater.
The truth shall set you free!
13mSv = 13,000 uSv = 13,000,000 nSv
547 packs * 20 cigs/pack = 10,940 cigarettes
13,000,000 nSv / 10,940 cigarettes = 1188.3 nSv / cigarette
:(){
If the cladding burned, there wouldn't have been a hydrogen bubble to explode; the hydrogen would have burned as it was separated. They talk about oxidization because that is what happened; not burning. It oxidizes, releases hydrogen, which then burns later.
Sure, zirconium can burn underwater. But a hydrogen bubble indicates a different process than fire was at work.
Even CNN had a physicist on explaining why it was "oxidization" but not "rust."
the hydrogen would have burned as it was separated.
Hydrogen doesn't burn underwater.
What's he going to do? play in the park?
Hiding indoors and posting to slashdot might be the healthiest use of his time at the moment.
25 years ago I lived 80 miles from Chernobyl -- no superpowers so far.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
FWIW I am in Tokyo.
The "authorities" by which I suppose you mean TEPCO, NISA and the Cabinet have been releasing large volumes of information. TECPCO was reticent at first, becuase they had no clue what they were doing, but a personal visit from the PM and a frank exchange of views fixed that last Wednesday.
I have been graphing the TEPCO data: http://www.paddon.org/wiki/mwp/Fukushima
In any case, please don't make comments without educating yourself first (sigh, I know. this is slashdot).
The big solar thermal plant in Arizona is selling electricity at $.14/kWh .
That's more than the US average of 12 cents, but it's still a few cents, and not dollars. Going forward, it's going to be competitive.
And nuclear doesn't include the cost of waste disposal, and coal doesn't include other external costs.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
They are releasing data that is of very little import while the crux of the matter is being withheld. They are withholding the crucial data such as condition of fuel pool 4 fuel, and in which areas of the plant the high rad readings were taken which would tell volumes about the containment vessel condition such as #2. And it is nonsense to give such a situation a number and to say "see, it's the same as three mile island", this situation is much more dire as it involves spent fuel pools which have no containment whatsoever.
I'm glad about the big solar plant, but I know a couple of engineers down at the University of Missouri, guys who work on that solar car that's won some races, and they're big interest is in standalone solar systems for homes. Think about it: no "grid", no electric bill. It would be a social revolution. They're still some time away but they're both convinced that they will see it in their lifetimes and they're not spring chickens.
They have some very interesting stories about their quest for funding and grants.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I will add that they aren't able to gather the crucial data because of the loss of the ability to gather it.
I made a post lower down that can help apply some context to your charts. It includes a chart of data which shows the radiation levels in Tokyo for March 15-18. It also helpfully points out that each cigarette contains at least 1000 nSv of radiation inhaled into the lungs.
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2045416&cid=35546574
:(){
Actually, it's not slimy, you just epic failed at context.
If you read my linked post, you will see that the measurements for natural background radiation in Tokyo are 0.05 uSv/h. Some folks struggle with understanding fractional parts of metric numbers. Therefore, I started quoting Tokyo as having 50 nSv/h. That is why I chose to express the amount of radiation in a cigarette in nSv; to facilitate comparison between standing in downtown Tokyo and smoking a single cigarette.
:(){
You're certainly right about renewables in Germany pissing off the power companies. My girlfriend in German, with her family hailing from a cow farm in Schleswig-Holstein (that's the north of germany, very flat and with lots of wind and a generally rural economy). What with the bottom falling out of the livestock/milk market, her father outfitted the cow shed with 10kW of photovoltaics and runs a small (six 1MW turbines IIRC) and her brother runs a biogas plant, powered by cow shit and wheat. Not sure what the power output of the biogas plant is, but it runs two converted truck diesel engines (so probably at least 1.5MW) and they're looking at ways to pipe the waste heat to nearby houses.
The problem is that when the subsidies arrived, along with a law that mandated the grid to buy from renewable sources before they buy from coal/gas power stations, is that everyone started putting up photovoltaics and wind turbines (heck, people started building cowsheds with no cows to put in them just so they could get subsidised photovoltaics). And now the problem is, when it's windy or sunny, there's a massive spike in power output, which the grid basically can't handle, and then they stop buying baseload from the biogas plants. Essentially the grid in this area at least requires a massive upgrade before it can use *all* the power produces at any one time, and at present there's no impetus to do so since it's cheaper and more predictable for EON to buy from larger baseload plants. Hopefully the gov will mandate the grid be upgraded in areas which require it. But still, a politicial/monetary problem endemic to wind/solar unpredictability rather than a failure of the technology itself.
I think by now about 15% of mains power in germany comes from renewables, with biogas making up about half of that - since it's far more predictable and is more suited for base loads, although it's still heavily dependant on hydrocarbon-based feeds and fertilisers, especially in winter. The problem still is that, despite the awesome investment in money, technology and time from the german people, there are literally decades of work to get even close to eclipsing nuclear and especially coal/gas based power sources - and personally I'd rather see coal/gas phased out in favour of nuclear rather than the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Electricity_production_in_Germany.PNG
Disclaimer: Pro-nuclear myself, as last I looked it was still one of the safest and most dependable technologies (as a counterpoint to Germany, about 80% of France's mains power comes from their nuclear sources and it's something they've gotten very good at to the extent they're selling it to us here in the UK), but that doesn't mean I'm not a fan of renewables. The renewables law in germany's been a good thing, but much like the policy of every other western nation, it's been too little too late - there's no way to make up the shortfall quickly enough. And like the parent says, fission should just be stepping stone to fusion and better renewable sources. I also get my info on german power second-hand so happy to receive connections.
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat