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NASA Picks Up Rainstorms On Titan

RedEaredSlider writes "Rainy seasons aren't just a regular occurrence on Earth — they also happen on Titan, the largest moon of Saturn. The rain isn't water, it's methane. And the seasons are years long, as Titan takes two weeks to go around Saturn and Saturn takes 29 years to complete one circuit of the Sun. Recent images from the Cassini probe, which is currently orbiting Saturn, show clouds forming in Titan's atmosphere and evidence that liquid methane is soaking the surface."

22 of 110 comments (clear)

  1. Years long... by Kokuyo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Can someone explain to me how long these years are? I find the TFA confusing.

    Our years are calculated by the circuit of our own planet around the sun. So does this rainy weather last for literal earth years or are they talking about relative years? And then: Saturn yars or Titan years? And what would a Titan year be since it doesn't revolve around the sun directly.

    Yeah, I don't have a clue about astronomy ;).

    1. Re:Years long... by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can someone explain to me how long these years are? I find the TFA confusing.

      Our years are calculated by the circuit of our own planet around the sun. So does this rainy weather last for literal earth years or are they talking about relative years? And then: Saturn yars or Titan years? And what would a Titan year be since it doesn't revolve around the sun directly.

      Yeah, I don't have a clue about astronomy ;).

      And the seasons are years long, as Titan takes two weeks to go around Saturn and Saturn takes 29 years to complete one circuit of the Sun.

      Obviously we're talking about Earth years, because Saturn revolving once around the sun cannot possibly take 29 Saturn years as that would completely contradict the definition of the word "year".

    2. Re:Years long... by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 4, Informative

      Caveat - I am not an astronomer. Actually, I agree with the original poster the article is confusing. I believe that they swap the point of reference without announcing they did. While the initial units are in Earth years: "as Titan takes two weeks to go around Saturn and Saturn takes 29 years to complete one circuit of the Sun." They then move to either the Saturn or Titan point of reference, as it would make no sense comparing Earths 'time of year' to a warming period for Titan "McEwan says the atmospheric models predicted that there would be clouds in the equatorial regions at this time of year, as the sun on Titan got warmer. "We saw these clouds suddenly, and then we saw the equatorial area darken," he said." As the warming period for Titan must be associated to Saturns position relative to the Sun I can only assume that this second seasonal reference is based on Staurns orbital year. Which would then also explain why the article claims the seasons are 'years long' as it is talking about Saturn seasons in Earth years.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    3. Re:Years long... by tsadi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just a random thought; a day in Titan lasts almost 16 Earth days. If humans evolved in Titan instead, would that mean that we'd spend the equivalent of 16 Earth days awake also, and maybe almost the same amount sleeping?

    4. Re:Years long... by euyis · · Score: 2

      The latter part is quite fascinating...

    5. Re:Years long... by pspahn · · Score: 4, Informative

      As far as I'm aware, the evolutionary effects on circadian rhythms on other planetary bodies is a study that has not yet been conducted.

      I guess that means the answer to your question is.... maybe.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    6. Re:Years long... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

      Years on Titan are the same as years on Saturn. A day on Titan is the same period as an orbit around Saturn. Years are important on Earth, Saturn and Titan because the axial tilt makes the sun move from North to South and back. Additionally the eccentricity in the orbit makes the planet move towards and away from the sun. The rainy season on Titan may actually last for Earth years. But particular period of rain may go for hours, days or weeks.

    7. Re:Years long... by Progman3K · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There was a study where they put a subject in an underground mine (they built him and underground house in there, or lair if you prefer) and only let him have contact through a video link to an operator's booth above.
      The operators would be relieved and assigned shifts in a random way so that the subject could not infer how long each operator was present nor how long their shifts were.
      After a few weeks/months of this, the subject began having 33-hour days and 11-hour nights.
      So the sun really DOES influence human wake/sleep periods. What the 33/11 ratio means is anyone's guess though...

      --
      I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
    8. Re:Years long... by argStyopa · · Score: 2

      First to answer your question:
      The terms used ARE confusing because the terms "day", "month" and "year" are all relative to what planet you're talking about.

      Saturn's year (1 circuit around the sun) is 29 Earth-years, approximately.

      Saturn is, like earth, tilted about 26 degrees on its axis, so it would have 'seasons' approximately in the same way that earth does - as it goes around in its orbit, the sun would be shining directly on the northern hemisphere and southern hemispheres, alternately, with the solstices being about 14.5 years apart (ie summer to winter in one hemisphere, analogous to June/December on Earth).

      Titan (as far as I can tell) orbits almost exactly around Saturn's equator, so it too is inclined 26 degrees to the Sun.

      Its orbital period (the amount of time it takes to go around Saturn) is 16 earth-days. So a "month" according to Titan, is 16 earth days.

      Since it's geosynchronous (like our Moon) one face always points at Saturn, so a Titan-day (from sunrise to sunrise) is the same as a Titan-month - about 16 earth days.

      Titan goes around Saturn 672 times over the course of Saturn's complete circuit of the Sun. So this means that Titan's seasons (assuming they're each 1/4 of the year like earth), are each 168 "Titan days", which are each about 16 Earth days long.

      Does that help?

      Second, I RTFA'd and I didn't understand how they got to some of their conclusions. For example they saw Cassini's early imagery of Titan, interpreted that they were seeing "dunes" and concluded that weather was scarce. Perhaps it's my MN origins, but "dunes" are not a great deal different from "snowdrifts", are they? And if the "dunes" were drifts, this would suggest the exact opposite, climatologically - an aeolian surface with regular precipitation.

      --
      -Styopa
  2. Re:God farts? by EdIII · · Score: 3, Informative

    Methane is not exclusively produced by biological organisms anymore than oxygen is exclusively produced by plants and trees. The process by which methane is thought to be produced on other planets, moons, etc. is abiotic.

    Furthermore, only 1-10% of a fart is methane. Interestingly enough, that is not the part that smells bad. It is the trace gases that give it the smell.

  3. no practical reason? by pablo_max · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why do people always say that there is no practical reason for space exploration? I just don't get it.
    Titan is a wonderful example. A planet with literally 100's of times more hydrocarbons than Earth. That seems like a reasonable excuse to go there and develop mining and extraction techniques.
    You can get never get to the point where space exploitation makes sense unless you start.

    1. Re:no practical reason? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      GP didn't say they had to go to Earth. Those gasses would go a long way on Mars or Luna.

      (See Imperial Earth by Arthur C Clarke for a good book on the subject)

    2. Re:no practical reason? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

      GP didn't say they had to go to Earth. Those gasses would go a long way on Mars or Luna.

      Where there's already no free oxygen to burn them with, so they'd be pretty much useless as fuel.

      Handy as an atmosphere though. Methane is a great greenhouse gas.

    3. Re:no practical reason? by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Informative

      2 things:

      1. pure science for the sake of pure science always eventually winds up making incredible discoveries that alter history and result in trillions of dollars of economic activity. that's why worrying about "no practical reason" is silly: it just means the person raising the issue doesn't understand science or history

      2. mining hydrocarbons on titan, and taking them somewhere else: anywhere, even just another moon of saturn, is completely ridiculous. its like flying from LA to Hong Kong to get your lunch time sandwich. you need an oxidizer too

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  4. Re:God farts? by pspahn · · Score: 4, Funny

    It is the trace gases that give it the smell.

    And here I thought it was because it was air that came out of your ass that made it smell bad.

    --
    Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
  5. Re:All together now... by burisch_research · · Score: 2

    Methane on Titan would flash-freeze you, since Titan's temperature is around 93.7 K (179.5 C), so AAAAAaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh is quite apt. Let's not forget that you'd have nothing to breathe, either.

    --
    char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
  6. Re:I'm pretty sure Titan is the home of... by clang_jangle · · Score: 2

    It strikes me as odd that a celestial body can be drenched in hydrocarbons like that yet no fire. Here on earth all it takes is dry conditions for a few weeks and fires pop up all over. How can Titan be a ball of flammable substances which remains unlit?

    --
    Caveat Utilitor
  7. Re:I'm pretty sure Titan is the home of... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    You don't know, and I don't know too

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  8. Re:I'm pretty sure Titan is the home of... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Informative

    It strikes me as odd that a celestial body can be drenched in hydrocarbons like that yet no fire. Here on earth all it takes is dry conditions for a few weeks and fires pop up all over. How can Titan be a ball of flammable substances which remains unlit?

    To burn you need fuel and oxidiser. The atmosphere on Titan is like the inside of a Nitrogen fire extinguisher. Any oxygen on Titan long ago combined with hydrogen to make water. There is a lot of water on Titan. The planet is actually made of the stuff. Having said that I wonder if oxygen or another oxidiser could have survived under ground where the Methane can't get at it. Such fossil fuels could lead to the return of the internal combustion engine, but this time in the outer solar system.

  9. Re:All together now... by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

    Let's not forget that you'd have nothing to breathe, either.

    Maybe he was dictating?

  10. Re:I'm pretty sure Titan is the home of... by CanadianRealist · · Score: 2

    I'm not sure if this was the idea you were going for, but suppose that there is a sufficient concentration of methane in the atmosphere. You would fill your vehicle's tank with oxygen and use that to be burn the surrounding atmosphere in the engine. Instead of carrying fuel and getting the oxidiser from the atmosphere you would be doing the reverse, carrying the oxidiser with you.

  11. Weather by kellyb9 · · Score: 2

    So what you're really telling me is - they can tell me its raining on Titan, but I can't seem to get reliable weather forcasts here.