Slashdot Mirror


EU About To Vote On Copyright Extension

ConfusedVorlon writes "According to Christian Engström (Pirate MEP), 'Monday or Tuesday this upcoming week there will be another round in the fight against prolonging the copyright protection term for recorded music in the EU. Now is an opportunity to contact MEPs, Members of the European Parliament, and persuade them to vote against the term extension."

23 of 143 comments (clear)

  1. Make it permanent by MBraynard · · Score: 5, Funny

    Making the copyright permanent would create a greater incentive to create and would lower the cost for consumers by extending the time to earn back the investment and shifting the intersection of the price-demand curve down.

    And do the same thing for drugs while you are at it.

    1. Re:Make it permanent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think they need to attach a yearly property tax on all items copyrighted if it's extended.

      You want a perpetual copyright? then you get a property tax attached to it. So if each song is worth millions as you claim in the courts, we TAX you at that value. Plus you pay taxes on it for every day it's not released to the public domain.

      If they want to screw the people, then at least give us tax money out of it.

  2. Hummm... What? by Tei · · Score: 5, Insightful

    95 years? thats negating the right to use music that you have heard your whole life. Do these people voting understand why theres a limit?
    If anything must be lowered, since music can start creating profit sooner and with computer networks can be instant and worldwide. Music don't need to move in slow trucks anymore.. has ben accelerated.

    I have the feeling this has ben caused by political corruption. Money from these music companies. I hope I am wrong.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

    1. Re:Hummm... What? by mentil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I imagine it's less 'corruption' and more 'indoctrination'.
      Imagine a conversation going something like this: "When music goes into public domain, its potential for economic use is wasted. In order to maximize economic activity the copyright term on music needs to be lengthened."
      Throw in some statistics about the number of people employed in the music industry who remaster old music, and dollar amounts of how much is made from old music. Add some emotional pleas saying how poor old ladies like Yoko Ono etc. won't make any money from their relatives' legacy.
      Basically they argue that economic purposes always trump public good, because economy is more important than anything. They probably even believe it, too.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Hummm... What? by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      95 years? thats negating the right to use music that you have heard your whole life. Do these people voting understand why theres a limit?

      Basically record companies and big media want to extend copyright because as the middleman between those who create and those who enjoy the creation, they get to scoop off 90% of the profits. Some of these profits they put into lobbying corrupt politicians, and don't think we haven't noticed who exactly they are.

      But look what's happening - there are three effects coming together here. First of all, older creative works are being locked down by these media groups, for longer periods. Second of all, they had power through distribution and marketing networks, if you weren't with them, you would never be seen/heard. Thirdly, they had the means to create these artistic works, printers for books, sound studios for music, movie studios for well movies. Right now, distribution is basically free, so that's one incentive to sign a contract gone. And the cost to create these works is dropping daily. I can write, publish and make a fortune off a book right now if I want, no contracts signed with anyone. Music likewise. Even movies, I can buy a thousand euros worth of equipment and make a pretty damn good movie out of it, with enough patience. The bar is lowering.

      So ultimately what might end up happening is the middlemen with their lock on older creative content will fade away, leaving behind only the shell of the laws they helped create, and from that will come an entirely fresh take on culture, a renaissance as it were. I still don't agree that copyrights should be more than say 24 years max, just pointing out that these copyright extensions will do no good whatsoever for the media giants, their time is done.

    3. Re:Hummm... What? by metacell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Real economists, on the other hand, realise that private use is also economic activity.If x people listen to a song, it produces the same amount of good regardless of whether they do it for free or have to pay for the pleasure. If all other things are equal, listening for free is preferable, since it cuts out the middle mean and reduces economic waste.

      This is where I believe the pragmatic politician and the economist start to differ. The pragmatic politician says, "What about all those people who are employed in the recording industry? Won't they be out of a job?"
      The economist answers, "Yes, but that's actually a good thing. That means labour is freed up to do something more useful. Selling and distributing music is not needed any more."
      And the politician answers, "Sorry, but I have to think of people's jobs. I won't get re-elected if I make a few thousand people unemployed - especially not if they're people with strong lobbying groups and good connections to journalists and intellectuals."

      The only time copyright is good for the economy, is when it provides a strong incentive to produce more artistic and literary works. Providing employment for artists and all the middle-men is not an end in itself.

    4. Re:Hummm... What? by metacell · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A tiny fraction of all music lasts that long. Elvis Presley's music is owned by a German record company today, and it was largely to protect that record company's business and employees that copyright was extended the last time, a year or two ago. And as a result, the remaining 99,9% of music becomes locked in by copyright and rots away in libraries and private collections for yet another few decades.

    5. Re:Hummm... What? by martin-boundary · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Imagine a conversation going something like this: "When music goes into public domain, its potential for economic use is wasted. In order to maximize economic activity the copyright term on music needs to be lengthened."

      That's interesting. Normally, companies don't want old products to compete economically with newer products, because the money that people spend on the old directly reduces the earnings from the new (market cannibalization). If the old songs go into the public domain, all of people's disposable income related to music will be spent on recent songs.

      However by your argument, new music must be so inferior that the market is shrinking, so keeping the old in the market is necessary to prop up the overall earnings.

    6. Re:Hummm... What? by stiggle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If its good enough then people will continue to consume quality media products.

      Beethoven's music is still fairly popular.
      Charles Dickens books are still being printed.
      Michael Faraday's inventions are still in use (after further development and refinement).

      Of course, history would probably be different if those 3 examples were heavily restricted and limited in their use.

      Where would Disney get their stories from if copyright existed on all those fairy stories they corrupted?

    7. Re:Hummm... What? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Basically they argue that economic purposes always trump public good, because economy is more important than anything. They probably even believe it, too.

      We live in a democratic society. And since at least 1982, a "democracy" has meant a free market consumer economy, operating on top of a nominally free and representative society. Democracy has hitched itself to marketism and the two are by now, probably inextricably linked.

      Every decision, every strategy, every policy and certainly every election in the modern democracy is focused around one thing: the economy. Nothing else matters; nothing. Not society, not progress, not religion, not justice, not equality, not fraternity, not libertyâ"nothing matters but the economy.

      So I don't know how people can really complain here. We live in a democracy and that means the economy comes first. If longer copyrights are better for the economy, meaning that they make profit for private companies, then they will be extended. Nothing else matters. The economy comes first, now and always, above all other things, Amen.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    8. Re:Hummm... What? by mentil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cannibalizing sales from themselves is preferable to free downloads cannibalizing their sales. $10 cannibalizing $10 is better than $0 cannibalizing $10. Distributors don't care if their $10 comes from old or new songs.
      If you look at music sales, they ARE shrinking recently. The long tail of old music is apparently large enough to justify the lobbying dollars required to get these copyright extensions passed, as long as that is true they will keep lobbying for extensions.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    9. Re:Hummm... What? by devent · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's not how digitalized works work. A real product can be put to an end by the company, because if the company stops to produce the product, the product is gone (except maybe for second hand/eBay). If the old music goes into public domain, now everyone can sell it.

      The big music industry is lobbying for extended copyright just to prevent old music become public domain so they can make music a scarce product. They want to be the only entity that have control over the distribution of music.

      What would happen if copyright would be 15 years or less? We would have a lot of small music distributors that profit from old music, and a lot of small music distributors that profit from new music. The music industry would come closer to a "free market" with lots of market members compete with each other.

      That is the worst nightmare for entities like the BMG and other groups. There are only 4 big record labels in the whole world, each have almost equal market share and they are dominating with 70% the music market.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music_market#Statistics

      That is a lot of concentration of capital in the hands of a few. 3 are based in the USA and one in the UK. You can see how much money they can put in to legislation in countries were such buy-off of laws is the norm.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    10. Re:Hummm... What? by MojoRilla · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the stories of Snow White, Pinocchio, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and many others were taken (stolen?) by Disney from the public domain.

      Disney definitely wants things both ways...it liberally borrowed from the public domain, but doesn't want any of its stuff there.

      It is true that Disney licensed Mary Poppins. It is very interesting though that the author of Mary Poppins, PL Travers, was a giant pain in the butt for Disney. According to IMDB, she greatly interfered in the making of the movie. Among other things she wanted major changes to the final film, including removing the chalk drawing animated sequence and removing all the music and replacing with period songs like "Ta Ra Ra Boom De Ay" or "Greensleeves". I would argue that the music is the soul of the movie.

      If the argument is that art won't get created without copyright, an equally valid argument is that art isn't getting created due to copyright.

  3. Too little too late... by Manip · · Score: 4, Informative

    While I support those that want to fight this, most EU countries already have the 70 year term in law already. Meaning local law already protects recordings for Life+70.

    List of EU countries with Life+70 or more: UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Poland, Sweden, Finland, etc

    My point is this law actually does nothing at all...

    1. Re:Too little too late... by dabadab · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess you are mixing up things a little: while copyright protection in general is 70 years (or life + 70 years), sound recording and moviess are an exception so that they are protected "only" for 50 years.
      However, any sane discussion about copyright should focus on cutting back the protection time to something like 20 years and getting rid of the ridiculous "life of the creator plus" part.

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    2. Re:Too little too late... by Eivind · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed, neither the public benefit, nor the value of stimulating creativity varies depending on how long the original author lives.

      Thus it's plain silly to award protection based on how long, or how short, the author might happen to live.

      Instead, make a flat-and-simple rule. 20 years from date of first publication, for example.

      The degree of reduced stimulation is tiny: there are very few works that pull in insufficient-to-be-worth-it money in the first 20 years, but enough-to-be-worth it in the first 100.

      This is so because *most* works are either economically worthless from the get-go, OR they're successful, for a limited time, OR in some rare cases, they're successful for a long time. In all 3 cases, length of copyright makes no real difference. (aslong as it's atleast long enough to cover the "limited time")

      This leaves the mythical beast: The work that never sells significantly in it's first 20 years, yet that goes on to become a hit later.

      These -exist-, but there are very few of them, and to add insult to injury, you'd have to know or guess that a work falls in this category, for that knowledge to influence your decision (are you gonna produce the work, or not)

      In todays economic climate I strongly suspect "this won't do well now, but could do better in 20 years" would map to "don't produce" anyway.

    3. Re:Too little too late... by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How much new work will the Author make after they are dead ... none

      So why life+anything?

      How much music do you know from 20 years ago... 10 years... 5 years ... compared to how much is published?

      Most music careers are not this long, so why protect an artist who does not produce for this long?

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  4. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    The odds of copyright terms not being extended are about the same as me being struck and killed by a meteor tomorrow.

    That's the spirit, give up without a fight!

    GP was killed by a meteor an hour ago but died a happy person due to this, you insensitive clod.

  5. Copyright has become absurd by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Copyright law at this point has become so absurd that you now have three options:
      - Do nothing. individuals completely ignore copyright law because it's insane
      - Make copyright law more absurd, thus weakening it further.
      - Weaken copyright law.

    No matter what you do at this point, copyright law has pretty much "jumped the shark", and can't be considered relevant or applicable to any situation.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    1. Re:Copyright has become absurd by arkhan_jg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You forgot option 4:

      - Make copyright law more absurd, thus making it easier for large corporations to completely bankrupt anyone that tries to exercise their rights AND implement technical measures (DRM etc) such that customers who are unable or unwilling to breach copyright via the internet get less and less rights and utility out of the works and hardware they purchase copies of.

      See: Loss of right of resale, i.e. first sale doctrine, via one-use registration codes or outright tying of purchase to a non-transferable account (steam, pretty much all retail pc games)
      See: blocking using MP3s as ringtones on mobile handsets, forcing repeat purchase of already owned music
      See: plays-for-sure
      See: Recording industry suing amazon cloud service for not buying additional licences to store music that users have already paid for - including MP3s from amazon itself
      See: do-not-record bit on broadcast media
      See: HDCP etc making it harder for people with otherwise compatible equipment watching, recording, or legitimately backing up their HD media.
      See: Apple lobbying (though thankfully failing) to make rooting the iphone illegal under the DMCA.
      See: Sony suing the bejesus out of geohot et al to try and put the jailbreak genie of the PS3 back in the bottle.

      etc, etc, etc.

      This is a war. And they are winning the battles while losing the war. While copyright as currently implemented is absurd, and getting more so, there's a lot of damage being caused to legitimate uses - and users - while the big content middle-men flail around trying to stay relevant and stop losing the money they think they're due.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
  6. Lopsided interests -- I don't have much hope by ahodgkinson · · Score: 3, Interesting
    1. It is highly unlikely that consumers will make a big effort to lobby for the public's interest, and
    2. It is highly likely that the parties representing the copyright holders will expend enormous efforts and money to try and strengthen/extend/etc. copyrights.

    The public is large, poorly organized and difficult to motivate to make a stand on copyrights. Essentially the problem is that changing copyrights don't fundamentally change the lives of most people. For the general public this is a problem somewhat similar to the Tragedy of the Commons, in that the common man doesn't really benefit much from his own efforts, but rather from the collective efforts of all common men, which is only marginally reduced by him being lazy and not doing anything. Unfortunately, this is true of all common men and the result is a tendency to be apathetic.

    For the copyright holders, the situation is reversed. There is a relatively small set of major copyright holders, they are well organized and well funded. With the clock ticking on their valuable assets, they are highly motivated to attempt to squeeze more out of the system, and their own efforts are likely to change their own bottom line. They stand to gain (or better said, not lose) vast amounts of money when copyright terms are extended, and are therefore willing to spend lots on lobbying, public relations and other activities to influence politicians.

    In the middle we have the copyright extension opponents only hope: the various public and private organizations. They, unfortunately, tend to be underfunded compared to the copyright holders. Their task is to motivate the public, to donate money or lobby their politicians. Most of the public, as previously stated, are not really bothered by copyrights.

    The more likely scenario, in my opinion, is that industry lobbying will ultimately be successful (perhaps after numerous attempts) and copyright term will become, for practical purposes, unlimited. Draconian laws will probably be implemented for copyright infringers. However, most of the public won't really care and will continue to illegally share films, music and other copyright content. The legal system will not make (in fact, will not be able to make) a sufficient effort to combat the problem, as the politicians probably don't think they will have to keep their promises to the industry in the long-term. There may also be a backlash from the judicial system and the public about the appropriateness of the effort and money spent on copyright infringers vs. other priorities.

    The result will be, more or less, the mess we currently have.

    There is an extremely small chance that there will be a small number of content providers who get it and realize that a new business model is required that is not based on trying to to maintain a legal lock on content. If they get enough of a foothold in the market, which will require overpowering the powerful Hollywood cartels (e.g. TV, movie and music distribution), this could a massive shift in the way content is marketed. This is more likely to happen in the book industry, as there less of a lock on the distribution channels, and we are seeming a gradual increase in self-publishing.

    --
    ---- It won't be as bad as you fear or as good as you hope, but it will take twice as long as you plan.
    1. Re:Lopsided interests -- I don't have much hope by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That was a long rant but I think the short answer is that consumers are a pretty big force to be reckoned with anyway. There's a reason Spotify is in the scandinavian countries where piracy is at its highest. There's a reason he is a MEP from the Pirate Party. I very much doubt you can *force* people to stop pirating, no matter how much you make a mockery of justice. And the courts here will never do a Thomas-Rasset and award 2 million dollars for sharing a few songs. That's what we give to people that have been innocently jailed for 15 years, smashed up real good in car accidents and that sort of thing. Even the four TPB leaders got less than 2 million dollars/person and that is still under appeal and TPB is still running. So they can own the whole playground but they still have to make terms that make the consumers want to play. We're not at the end of the bandwidth revolution, we've really just started. Take a look at this graph. That's the average and mean broadband bandwidth from 2004 and until today here in Norway. It's only going one way - up, up and away. You haven't seen anything yet, when everyone is on 10-100Mbit connections then you'll know true P2P. Also unlike the US "up to" those are pretty much real speeds with no silly caps.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  7. You lack imagination by Mathinker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can think of at least another whole round of warfare which you've forgotten. Once the media groups have a large computerized database of music which is effectively under permanent copyright, they can easily take any independent musician's music and run automated matching. Chances are that they will find a match good enough to take said musician to court, even if their chances of winning are small. Result? Said independent musician either folds and signs, or quits making music. I find it unlikely that, at least for the first 15-20 years of this strategy, that the courts would catch on to what was going on, and start to sanction the media groups for abusing the court system. Even with the strategy of spam-suing the consumer infringers (where there are orders of magnitude more of them than successful, creative, independent musicians), it's taking ages for the the US courts to figure out what is going on.