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Are Graphical Calculators Pointless?

An anonymous reader writes "Texas Instruments and Casio have recently released new flagship graphical calculators but what, exactly, is the point of using them? They are slow, with limited memory and a 'high-resolution' display that is no such thing. For $100 more than the NSpire CX CAS you could buy a netbook and fill it with cutting edge mathematical software such as Octave, Scilab, SAGE and so on. You could also use it for web browsing, email and a thousand other things. One argument heard for using these calculators is: 'They are limited enough to use in exams.' Sounds sensible, but it raises the question: 'Why are we teaching a generation of students to use crippled technology?'"

33 of 636 comments (clear)

  1. Obvious by Anrego · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why are we teaching a generation of students to use crippled technology?

    Cause the large portion of students are untrustable cheating bastards? Ok, a little bit of hyperbole, but that really is the reason. In addition to web browsing, you could also load equation solvers and all manner of tools to enable one to cheat their way through math. The old way overpriced graphing calculators can be wiped before a test, and offer the right mixture of functionality and cripple that schools want.

    The price I think is just a function of having a captive consumer base. They charge as much for something that should cost so very little because the people who need it are going to buy it.

    And yes, I'm sure the ol` "in real life I'd google the answer anyway" point is going to come up, and while I agree for most traditional memorize and regurgitate type courses, I still think math should be tough with a reasonable distance from crutches, while at the same time not trying to pretend they don't exist either. Show them matlab, but make `em work it out on paper on the test.

    1. Re:Obvious by gman003 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The thing is, even the "standard" graphing calculators are now advanced enough to teach with. Smart teachers are now demanding students reformat their calculators before a test, because otherwise they (like me) would just write a BASIC program instead of memorizing a formula, or store notes as an image.

      Of course, I wrote a BASIC program that mimicked the shell, except a) it did not actually reformat, just display a message that it did so, and b) like a rootkit, it displayed false values for stored data, in this case blanks. It wasn't flawless (the ON key would interrupt the program), but none of my teachers figured it out. Arguably, it was more work than memorizing the formulas in the first place. Also arguably, this was more useful to me than rote-learning the proof of the quadratic formula.

    2. Re:Obvious by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Personally, I think as far as math education should go, the more crippled, the better. The most advanced calculators make kids dependent on them when learning. Let's let them use calculators that can only give them the most basic info like a replacement for Trig tables or for basic calculation. Anything more and the kids will learn more about the calculator and less about the subject.

      --
      My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    3. Re:Obvious by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Thing is, if they're being bought primarily for the lack of features, it seems hardly worth bothering with an expensive graphing calculator in the first place. If you don't want people using equation solvers, storage capabilities, and so forth then they're pretty much a total waste of money (and if you need to do these things in real life, that money is better spent on a copy of Mathematica). I bought one in school, just like everyone else on the course, and I don't think I ever actually used any features you wouldn't find on a $10 scientific calculator.

      If I need to plot a graph, or get the roots of a difficult equation, or whatever else, I'll do it on the computer. If I'm in an exam designed to test my ability to do those things, it'll probably be written in such a way that the calculator can't just do it for me. The overlap between things that can be tested in an exam, and things that a graphical calculator can do but a scientific calculator can't, is minuscule, and really doesn't seem worth making everyone buy the things just to test that tiny area.

    4. Re:Obvious by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Quite often engineers have to create formulae.
      And if all you can do is use a calculator to solve them, you're then helpless, and won't be more than a technician or programmer.

      Yes, tools are good, but you should show that you understand what they do before you get to use them. Else, the only one you're cheating is yourself.

    5. Re:Obvious by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also arguably, this was more useful to me than rote-learning the proof of the quadratic formula.

      I would like to hear that argument.

      I've had a student argue that the skills involved in plagiarizing a paper about Nabokov's Pale Fire were more valuable than reading the great novel and doing the thinking and writing involved in producing an original paper. I wonder why some 20 years old would think he had the merest grasp of what would or would not be "useful" to him.''

      After all, learning to braze or cadweld a pipe could be much more useful than learning to solve a partial differential equation, if you wanted to be a plumber.

      Looking back on my own education, the one quality I wish I'd had more of is humility.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    6. Re:Obvious by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because writing a fairly complicated program with the described functionality requires all of the skills, and more, involved in the proof of the quadratic formula (which is an especially trivial proof if you already know the formula). It's objectively more useful to learn, because it requires the same skills and other skills as well, not just differently useful (requiring different skills of unrelated application).

    7. Re:Obvious by samweber · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the real world, cheating would be called "collaboration".

      Why, yes indeed. I worked in industry for many years, and I can tell you that no workers were more highly valued than those who were unable to do even the simplest things by themselves. "Let's collaborate!" they would say, and our hearts warmed instantly and we leapt into action, "helping" our valued coworkers, doing their work for them. In contrast, those with highly valuable skillsets, able to quickly solve difficult problems, those were as dirt to us. "Be off with you!" we'd cry, "and never dare to cross our path again!" Yes, as sweatyboatman says, nothing is more valuable in the real world than incompetence!

    8. Re:Obvious by Obfuscant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Knowing WHAT formula to use is key.

      Partial credit for an incomplete answer.

      Knowing what formula, what it means, what assumptions it requires, and what limitations it has, is key. That means memorizing its details.

      Simply programming the solution into your calculator doesn't teach you anything but what the formula is. It doesn't demonstrate any knowledge of when/why/how to use the formula.

      It's the same level of knowledge that has a student saying the answer to a problem is "1" when he uses an RPN calculator. He had the formula written down in front of him, but wasn't smart enough to realize the vastly wrong answer when he thought he was using it correctly. (He pressed an additional ENTER and wound up dividing one number by itself.) This problem dealt with the concentration of hydrogen ions in a buffer solution, and it should have been obvious that '1' was a completely ridiculous answer. (The real answer was around 10e-6.)

      Except you get out in the real world and the last thing you want is your engineer pulling formulae from their (faulty) memory when they are already available in the computers they will be using.

      No, the last thing you want is your engineer picking an equation to use because it looks like it might apply and it has been programmed into the computer for him. The correct problem solving method means knowing the problem to be solved first and then solving it, not picking from a list of problems that have already been solved and reproducing it.

      Calling these calculators "crippled" is wrong. They are limited in function, deliberately. (car analogy) It is like calling a VW bug "crippled" because it isn't doing the job of a 1/4 ton pickup truck. (/car analogy).

      They are smaller, cheaper and lighter than a computer (even a netbook, and much cheaper than an iPad). They are harder to use to cheat, and unfortunately, that is an issue that makes them better for classwork than those full computers with fancy software. They are just the right level to remove the tedium of doing basic math (which should have been mastered by now) while leaving the requirement to think through the problem to know what basic math needs to be applied.

    9. Re:Obvious by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've had a student argue that the skills involved in plagiarizing a paper about Nabokov's Pale Fire were more valuable than reading the great novel and doing the thinking and writing involved in producing an original paper.

      Wow, it would have been at least marginally clever if he'd claimed Zemblan diplomatic immunity...

      One might point your student to Laughter in the Dark: you know, the Nabokov novel about the dilettante who's self-satisfaction and self-deception are his undoing.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    10. Re:Obvious by metamatic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Personally, I think as far as math education should go, the more crippled, the better.

      Well, that's why they're using TI calculators rather than RPN...

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    11. Re:Obvious by gman003 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wrote what was practically an entire operating system in a VERY limited version of BASIC. That took (if I do say so myself) a remarkable amount of programming skill. Some of the things I first did there (subroutines, nested loops, text parsing) are now things I use daily (GOTO, thankfully, not being one of them).

      Meanwhile, I have not used the quadratic formula since I finished Calculus, let alone had to recite a proof of it. I have little doubt that knowing what the formula is and how to use it is relatively important. However, I would like to see a plausible theoretical situation in which one would need to recite a proof of the quadratic formula, without the use of any references.

    12. Re:Obvious by johnsnails · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a mathematics teacher I always encouraged my students to show working as a means of giving them partial marks for partially correct answers. Very hard to award marks for working out that is not there even if I can see what they *probably* did wrong to get the mark they did.

    13. Re:Obvious by pclminion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Today I'm a programmer, and I make more than twice what my idiot math teachers made, and probably have more fun doing it.

      As a programmer, you must have experience with the following phenomenon: you come back to a piece of code you yourself wrote, a year or so later, and not only can you not remember how it works, you don't even remember that you're the one who wrote it. It's great and everything that you could turn the formulas into a computer program, but as a fellow programmer myself, I can tell you that I can turn all kinds of formulas into programs even if I don't understand the damn formulas.

      The goal, which you apparently missed completely, was to learn math, not how to turn a formula into a computer program. There's simply no way around the fact that most of this stuff can only be mentally internalized by rote and repetition. It sucks, it's boring, it's also how learning happens. What you did, and your following smart-ass attempts to defend your case, had a quite foreseeable outcome. Although I commend your mother for going to bat for you. Seems like parents don't have the guts for that in most cases lately.

    14. Re:Obvious by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In fact, if you work for any sort of business with more than 5 employees, you've been doing exactly that!

      Except you apparently failed to note that the workers who call for "collaboration" have positions and titles like: managers, bosses, CEOs etc. It is exceptional indeed if any of them is capable of doing even a fraction of actual work his or her underlings do since they've, quite successfully may I add, invested all their time into skills to induce "collaboration" with others in which they reap nearly all the benefits.

      And, surprisingly, a vast majority of those with "valuable skill sets" waste no time in their rush to "collaborate" with the said individuals, likely including you. It is only your fellow competitors for the favors of these masters of yours, or people whom you intend to "collaborate" into your own personal gain, that you reserve all your disdain for: those better know what they are all about, lest no profit!

      As it is, in the "real world", "cheating" is one of the most valuable skills in our duplicity-based society: that is how the social elites are made. Those who learned early on to "play by the rules" are doomed to be forever serfs and to "collaborate" for those who did not.

    15. Re:Obvious by reason · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I learnt a salutory lesson in high school back in the 1980s. Our maths teacher had given us dozens of simple functions and told us to graph them in polar coordinates. the first couple took me ages, calculating and plotting each point by hand. I felt comfortable that I knew how polar coordinates worked and felt I had no need to do each example in the problem set. So I wrote a simple BASIC program to do all the rest for me. I didn't bother to hide the fact, and handed in the results on dot matrix paper. My teacher queried it, and I explained that being able to write a programme to plot functions in polar coordinates proved that I understood the work. So he asked me what patterns I'd noticed. Off the top of my head, what would such-and-such a function look like? It was only then that I realised that in writing my programme, I hadn't just saved myself a lot of rote work, I'd skipped a lesson designed to force me to puzzle out the patterns. (Fortunately, it was a fairly simple set of patterns and it only took a moment's thought before I could answer the question, but if he hadn't asked, I might never have noticed and might have been reduced to plotting these things out one point at a time when exam time came).

    16. Re:Obvious by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      With THIS you have grasped what many people just fail to see. Intuition should become part of every learning in life. I have a friend who has gotten nothing but high distinctions throughout her entire engineering degree. She is a mathematical genius. You drop a circuit in front of her she can solve all the steady state values in a minute, she can also quickly give you any gain or AC analysis.

      But she can't grasp what a circuit does. If you put a drawing of an amplifier with some reactive components in the feedback loop in front of her she can't simply come out and say low pass or high pass. Put a powersupply circuit and she won't within a second answer if it's a buck or boost, if the capacitor is used to smooth output ripple, etc.

      People miss this fundamental learning in all degrees. So you know how to write a quick sort, good for you, so do I with 2seconds of googling. But do you know when to use the quicksort on a dataset instantly and intuitively without googling for "What is the best sorting algorithm?"

      Details can always be worked out or looked up. Conceptual vision and intuition however are the lifeblood of most professions, and people often miss this part about rote learning.

    17. Re:Obvious by SpasticWeasel · · Score: 3, Funny

      After yesterday, the only way I can write a sort routine requires lots and lots of folk dancing

      --
      No sooner do I get over one, then you put a better one right next to me. Bastards.
  2. TI by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but it raises the question: 'Why are we teaching a generation of students to use crippled technology?'"

    because Texas Instruments has lobbied very successfully to keep it that way.

    technology that has barely advanced since the early 90's and probably only costs $10 or so to make being sold for $100-$150 to every student

    to protect that kind of profit I would bribe a bunch of school districts too!

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    1. Re:TI by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Informative

      NYS board of regents, other state's counterparts, AP college board, US Dept. of Education, Education Testing Services (company administering the SAT's)

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  3. Really, I thought the question is... by Umuri · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why are we having exams that require a calculator?
    I did all of calculus and most of linear so far(sufficiently complex equations were done to allow for matlab use, but the test stuff could be done without), and even statistics(yay longhand division!) without one just fine, and most problems can easily be done without them if the proper setup numbers are used.

    Also, they are NOT crippled enough. Even when i was in middle school there were program packs to download your textbook onto your ti-83 (I had a ti-80 and i could still type the formulas by hand) so they are still too advanced to not cheat with. And don't tell me you can just wipe the memory, any sufficiently smart cheater would have a ti with a different spare battery. You can find easy DIY's for those online nowadays easy.

    Allow a calculator with a 10 key, if they need to graph something, then they should be able to figure it out enough by hand and not need a calculator.

    All testing with a graphing calculator does is let more students pass because they don't need to learn, they just need to throw thier notes on the calculator memory. (Yes you'd have references in real life, but the point of most math tests is it's so basic you shouldn't NEED references, it should be the core material you know by heart)

    --
    You never realize how much manually made unmanaged "linked" lists suck, till you have src.link.link.link.link...
    1. Re:Really, I thought the question is... by adamdoyle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree that you shouldn't "need" a calculator, but on a test in a non-math class, it's nice to have. For instance, in Physics, maybe you have a bunch of problems involving kinematic equations and you barely have enough time to set them up. It's nice to be able to use the calculator to reduce your augmented matrix into RREF. Sure, I can do it by hand, but I don't always have time on a test. With a TI-89, I can save a bunch of time by taking the grunt work out of the equation. And a laptop wouldn't work because what kind of teacher is going to let students have internet access during a test? (not to mention access to scanned copies of their notes, etc.)

    2. Re:Really, I thought the question is... by limaxray · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have to disagree with this. When you go on to actually use the math you've learned, not using a calculator is plain silly. There is no way I could have completed a few EE exams without my TI89 because of the large amount of complex (in both uses of the term) math required. I remember a number of my friends had trouble simply because they didn't know how to use their calculators and had to do their calcs by hand. I'm sorry, but when you have a test with a dozen problems, each requiring as much number crunching as an average calc exam, you need the calculator.

      And now that I'm all grown up, I'm not going to model a filter by hand on a piece of graph paper. I'm going to use Matlab. If an engineer wanted to do math by hand today, they'd be seen as a dinosaur wasting time - not some mathematical genius.

      If you really want to prepare people to use math in the real world, you need to include teaching them how to use today's tools. Teaching students how to do things by hand is great, but utterly useless by itself after they complete the final.

  4. Oh please, this comes up every six months by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This same topic seems to get re-submitted to Slashdot about twice a year.

    Short answer: If you need 100MB for a calculator, I salute you. If 320*240 pixels with 65,536 colours is too small and low-res for you for a calculator, you should save your money for a trip to the eye doctor.

    Can a netbook do more different things than a calculator can? Yes, yes it can. That is why a calculator is not called something else... like, say, a netcalcubooklator.

    My cell phone lets me make phone calls and also play Angry Birds. Why is Uniden still selling phones that don't have built-in synchronization to Google Contacts?

    My 24" widescreen LCD monitor can display six pages of a book at once at full resolution. How do Amazon and Barnes & Noble get away with selling devices that can only display one page at a time, are not backlit, and can't run Photoshop?

    The answer is obvious: There is plenty of room in the world for purpose-built devices. The reasons why people like to use those devices will vary. I, for one, like having a compact calculator that is programmable and has plenty of easy-to-stab dedicated calculator buttons on the front (as opposed to messing around with LaTek formula input, or whatever other input method you'd use on a device with a keyboard or touchscreen). My calculator of choice is an HP 50G. The HP 48 emulator on my Android phone can do most of what the 50G can do (and probably a lot faster), but as an emulated calculator on a touchscreen device, it ain't the same.

    Do I use my programmable calculator every day? No, no I do not. Do I resent spending $120 on a calculator, compared to the cost of the chemistry textbook I bought for the same class? No, no I do not.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  5. Re:Another viewpoint on calculators and exams... by pclminion · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What's the point in "teaching" math if you let the calculator do 90% of the work?

    What's the point in "teaching" math if you let the decimal system and all that clever carry-the-one shit do all the work? I mean seriously, students need to learn what addition really is -- make them put 198 beans into a pot, then put another 61 beans in the pot, then count the beans to get the answer.

    Being a human is about being smart, not being dumb. Forcing a student to do addition on paper when the student is studying partial differential equations is nothing but an insult. By that point I think they've earned the right to not continually have to prove that they can add two numbers together.

    As an undergrad taking physics I had this bad habit of forgetting my calculator, especially on test day. I'd end up doing longhand division and taking up half the paper and leaving less room to write the actual answer. The professor started asking me what the hell I was smoking.

  6. Re:Yes and No by IQgryn · · Score: 3, Funny

    You made your point about the keyboard being difficult to use quite eloquently.

  7. Re:Another viewpoint on calculators and exams... by mysidia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's the point in "teaching" wood shop, if you let a power drill do 90% of the work when drilling holes?

    Students should have to do it using hand screws, lest they become dependant on the newfangled lctricity!!

    Crippled technology? Hell, why do we even allow calculators to be used in ANY exam? What's the point in "teaching" math if you let the calculator do 90% of the work?

    Because calculators are a tool used by practitioners of mathematics, and students benefit from learning to use the tool to facilitate their work? Because arithmetic is simple, and it would be wasteful to just be constantly re-testing all that particular type of "work" on every test?

    Don't take testing of students' ability to use a calculator for granted.... many students fail, even with advanced calculators fully allowed. To be successful in life, you have to learn how to use a calculator, and if math classes don't teach this and test you on it, many students won't get the required skill.

    It turns out that in real math classes you actually have to have some idea what you are doing to be successful even with a calculator. This couldn't be more true than with word problems that sometimes involve many steps and pages of work, and require advanced problem solving --- the more work the calculator can do, the more time the student has to do work on the real math (problem solving), AND, therefore the more complex the problem can be, and the larger the amount of material that can be tested (the more advanced the thought that can be required of the student).

    In other words use of a calculator is not harmful, and actually beneficial, if the examination method is effective, and accounts for the students' access to a calculator. Strategy for using the calculator in an appropriate way is also a problem solving consideration -- if the student uses their calculator inefficiently, or doesn't take a good problem solving approach, they will run out of time before they finish the exam. The introduction of this strategy element allows the exam to be made more challenging, and therefore.... taking the exam more rewarding / more educational an experience.

    If you can't use a calculator, you won't go very far in modern maths. If you can use a calculator, 98% of the students will have their needs met; the 2% who go into advanced maths for maths sake are such geeks they will not be harmed by learning to use a calculator.

  8. Standardize the calculators by Dutchmaan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A basic scientific calculator should be so cheap these days that they could just be added to the instructors budget and handed out to students and returned to the instructor during a test. I see no reason in this day and age where basic calculators shouldn't be as readily available as say, a pen.

  9. I think you are missing the point by davidwr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The question is not "should graphing calculators exist" but "should $100 graphing calculators exist?"

    If a low-end netbook cost 5 times as much as a graphing calculator instead of twice as much, we wouldn't be asking this question.

    If it weren't for virtual "vendor lock in" dictated by testing agencies, book publishers, and other "high influence" players giving TI a near-monopoly, the price of these fancy not-a-computer graphing calculators would be more like $25-$50 instead of $80-$130. Oh, and netbooks would still cost the same as they do now.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  10. Missing the point of math... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 5, Informative

    Meanwhile, I have not used the quadratic formula since I finished Calculus, let alone had to recite a proof of it. I have little doubt that knowing what the formula is and how to use it is relatively important. However, I would like to see a plausible theoretical situation in which one would need to recite a proof of the quadratic formula, without the use of any references.

    There are a lot of posts like this, so apologies for singling you out... But, as a math teacher I have to say in response to the "but I never use this" ideas...

    Though doing such things is required as class, mathematics is NOT and has never been about memorizing formulas, or even about using specific ones. Yes, we all know you probably don't use the quadratic formula in real life, nor to you have to find the rules for number sequences, nor do you have to find all of the number patterns you can in Pascal's triangle, nor do you have to use Pascal's triangle as a convenient shortcut for binomial expansions, nor do you have to do proofs using all of those uselessly memorized names and properties from your various classes, etc. Yes, you probably had to do all of these things and more in your math classes, but believe it or not, learning math is not really about these things.

    Mathematics is (or should be) the class where you learn how to think logically, and use logical and critical thinking skills to solve problems. Not just math problems, but ANY kind of problem you are likely to encounter in life. No, you won't ever use pythagorean theorem to solve relationship problems in your love life, but the logical and critical thinking styles you gained in your mind from solving problems in math will apply to you finding reasonable and logical solutions in real life.

    Not only are you learning how to think in math, but you are learning how to break down your thinking so you can check it step by step to make sure there are no flaws. THAT is why we math teachers make you show your work. I, for one, don't care if you get the correct answer or not. I care about how you arrived at your answer, if you can show me the process you used to get to it, and if, in the case of an incorrect answer, you can find the flaw in your thought process that lead to your mistake. Tell me the ability to explain your thinking or the process you intend to engage in to reach a particular outcome is not an important and necessary life skill!

    The fact that we use mathematics to try to teach these things is a side effect of what math is. But math class is not just for learning math. It is the class where you exercise your brain so that logical thinking and sustained reasoning become easier in all aspects of life.

    And that is why learning to prove the quadratic formula, rather than programming the answer into your calculator, is important.

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    1. Re:Missing the point of math... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's never about critical thinking. It's never about solving real life problems. It's always about passing the next test or quiz.

      And, again, you miss the point. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. It's not about directly solving real life problems. It's about learning the STYLE AND WAY OF THINKING LOGICALLY in order to solve real life problems.

      The way math classes make you do this is by doing math problems, because math problems can only be solved by logical thinking and a logical application of mathematical properties. Doing this again and again, building in complexity over the years, doesn't just teach you to solve math problems, it teaches you HOW TO THINK about any problem. Just like muscular exercise builds up muscles that are used repetitively for some task that you want to be stronger at doing, the kinds of problems you do in math are brain exercises that build up, through repetitive use, the pathways that are useful for logical thinking.

      I'm sorry if your teachers didn't make this explicitly clear to you. A lot of teachers don't. I, for one, do explain this to my students, because I understand very well that the level of math we are doing is not very interesting, the types of problems we solve with it are very contrived and not realistic (because the math required to solve "real" problems is way beyond these basics, but you must master the basics if you want to learn to do the advanced stuff), and a lot of the actual things we do in class are not very applicable themselves in real life. For most people, math is not exciting or interesting. But learning it gives the gifts of clear and logical thinking and the ability for sustained chains of reasoning.

      I'm sure not many of my students get this, even though I have explained it to them, but that's simply a product of them being young and inexperienced with the world. If even a few of them come out of this class as clearer, more rational thinkers, then I've done my job well.

      --
      "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    2. Re:Missing the point of math... by Sir_Sri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not the logic of solving problems you should be teaching. Anyone can do that, easily, with or without math. We call them arts grads. It's the quantitative analysis that's important. Ok so you aren't using the quadratic formula in your love life. It's the wrong tool. A statistical analysis of activities engaged in, money invested, the probability of loss due to breakup etc. are all very legitimate mathematical tools in to assess the risk/rewards involved in any relationship. Moreover you need to be confident in the validity of the tools you use to solve a problem. Take something simple, like choosing the specific shade of blue in the google logo, or the background on your corporate letterhead. Now, you can use a 'logical' approach, and feel good about appropriate contrast or the 'tone' the colour conveys. Or you can use survey people (how many is significant?), quantize the various options (how do you quantize them?), and view it as an optimization problem to pick the the optimal colour for the problem you are solving. The latter is the correct (if somewhat expensive) way to choose, the former is what you have arts majors for. If you are a 5 person company, the arts major approach is all fine and good. If you are nokia, google or IBM you damn well better have some actual analysis behind your choice of what font to use, what colour to use etc. because even subtle variations effect perception of your brand, and when you're a company worth 10's of billions of dollars, fractional percent shifts in the value of your brand equate to millions of dollars.

      Most of what we learned in math, that seemed basically useless to everyone who wasn't going to be an engineer or a physicist (I was originally a physicist), ended up 15 years later hitting me in the head as a game developer. Quantitatively defining fun, defining the world all of those things are both mathy, and require a lot formal proofs of either correctness or at least derivations of whatever it is you're trying to solve. Computers simulate the world through math, and mathematical approximation, so by extension any field which requires computer models necessarily relies on math to build those tools accurately. The better you are at math, the better the models will be. If you want them to be fast, have good cache hit ratios, minimize memory use, etc. then you can come to a computer scientist. I note that I'm really a developer, not a designer. The designers come up with all these ideas on what would be fun, and I have to find a way to analytically assess them. Is this UI placement better or worse than that one? Is this area too hard or too easy? Solving those problems regularly requires derivations and proofs, and the developers have to come up with them themselves (they aren't just in a book somewhere I can look up), well ok, some tools are in books. But most of them are situational at best.

      Do I use the quadratic formula? Not so much at the moment. Do I use its proof and derivation on a regular basis, absolutely. I'm working with a hex grid pathfinding algorithm, and I work with some curvalinear coordinate systems (not all of which are your standard spherical or cylindrical) to attach visual effects to various things. Not far off from where I thought I'd be 15 years ago (hex grids were all the rage in the 90's wargaming scene).

      Applying numbers to real problems, either for simulator or for actual analysis, whether its' physical simulation or finance or the like, developing and understanding what your toolkit is, how to use it, and where it will fail is the point of teaching math. If your goal is a 'logical approach to problem solving' you're either on a course for people who won't ever be capable of using math to solve problems, or you're doing it wrong. How do you quantize it, how do you analyse it, how do you prove that your answer is optimal, or if it is intractably hard to optimize it, how efficient is it, and what approximations did you take to get here?

  11. Best math class I ever had was open book by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In fact it was open book, open note, open teacher. You could go ask the teacher for help. He wouldn't give you the answer, but he'd help steer you on the right course. I learned more in that class than in any other. Now of course people are quick to say "No you didn't, you just liked it because it was easy." Actually it was not easy, but my appreciation for how much I'd learned came not from that class, but after.

    So first thing to understand is that I'm good at math, but not stellar. I was never the stereotypical "Better than everyone at math and loving it," geek. I did well, got to advanced (but not advanced placement) math classes, usually got Bs and As and so on, but I was no super math whiz, and while I didn't hate it, I didn't really like it that much.

    It was a precalc class, taken my senior year of high school. So in university I started in Calc 1 as you'd expect. At the beginning of the second class, the teacher gave us a precalc test. It was to be fully graded, though not counted. He said he was doing this first to get a feeling for how much precalc he needed to cover since it often got taught wrong, and also to help people who might not be ready for Calc 1. If you bombed the test he didn't kick you out, but suggested that you might wish to transfer to precalc since it was unlikely you'd do well.

    I just aced that test, near 100%, by far the highest score in the class. He came up and asked me where Id' learned precalc, since it was so rare to find someone with such a solid knowledge of it.

    Never before or since had I learned so much in a math class, and he allowed calculators, the book, any notes, and asking him questions. The tests were about learning how to do the math, how it worked, not about making sure you could do the fiddly stuff in your head.