Slashdot Mirror
China Space Official Confounded By SpaceX Price
hackingbear writes "Declining to speak for attribution, the Chinese officials from Great Wall Industry, a marketing arm of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. (CAST), say they find the published prices on the SpaceX website very low for the services offered, and concede they could not match them with the Long March series of launch vehicles even if it were possible for them to launch satellites with U.S. components in them. According to the SpaceX website, launch on a Falcon 9 — which has an advertised lift capacity of 10,450 kg. (23,000 lb.) — from Cape Canaveral costs $54 million — $59.5 million. If the SpaceX price is real and its quality is proven, both are big IFs, it is remarkable to see that US can beat China in term of price. Between August 1996 and August 2009, the Chinese rockets have achieved 75 consecutive successful launches were conducted, ending with a partial failure in the launch of Palapa-D on August 31, 2009. If we all learn from SpaceX, maybe soon China will outsource from the US."
Chinese lying? No way. If they say the baby milk doesn't contain melamine then it would be racist not to believe it.
Kinda like how american bankers told everyone that their mortgage backed investments were a sure fire thing that should be in every retirement portfolio? Kinda like how iceland promised to pay back its loans but then decided to flip their creditors the bird instead?
No, they won't. They'll do the same thing they've been doing for generations now: they'll study what we're doing (e.g. SpaceX), both legally and not-legally, copy it at first like a baby learning a new language, then learn how to integrate what they learn into their own way of doing things, and finally wind up doing it better or at least more cheaply than we can.
Bophal
China's big advantage is cheap unskilled labor.
Space rockets aren't produced in big enough batches to mass produce and generally require a lot of skilled labor. Exactly the sort of product where the US tends to have an advantage.
Resistance is futile.
If SpaceX truly is better they'll just use the Chinese 3 step program:
The first ones, you build them and we launch them (teach us to use it)
The next ones, we build under your supervision (teach us to build it)
The final ones, we build ourselves on license (assuring completeness)
After that a remarkably similar Chinese rocket will replace the US one, naturally not paying any foreign royalties. Most everybody involved will care about their own quarterly bonus and will jump ship by then. Did I miss anything? There's no ??? step in this, but tben again it's not a slashdot plan...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You know you are winning when even the Chinese say they can't match your price.
But seriously though, one reason why SpaceX can do it so cheaply is because they already have all the infrastructure and technical knowledge available. SpaceX can use the existing equipments and people from the Air Force, NASA, Boeing, Northrope Gruman etc. without having to build/research on their own. This cuts down the price dramatically.
"the Chinese rockets have achieved 75 consecutive successful launches were conducted"
Go through it word by word. That should be reasonable for a short summary published for everyone to read.
>maybe soon China will outsource from the US
You're kidding, right? This just means it's another industry to target, that's all.
See, other governments think various things are worth going after. The US government has no such lofty goals. It's all about offshoring as many jobs as possible, even the engineering ones. What, you don't think it's about just the factory floor ones, do you?
The Chinese think that STEM is a good thing. The US, not so much.
--
BMO
Wouldn't that be because China being a relative latecomer in aerospace would be including a bigger proportion of their launch costs in building up their infrastructure?
In contrast, the US and Russia had decades of of amortization behind them so their per-launch costs should be more competitive.
China: if Microsoft was a country.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
If true it is temporary at best, because:
(1) Whatever SpaceX did to get the price down, so can China, but with cheaper labor and fewer environmental etc regulations. If necessary, they can just "duplicate" the IP, or require tech transfers to Chinese companies similar to how they are doing in commercial aviation.
(2) China is a lot of things, but they are not dumb. If it's in their long range strategic interest to win this market, they will do so even if it requires massive subsidies for a while to drive western companies out of business.
You can't blame China for any of this, I don't think. They are smart and they think about what's best for them in the long term. If it benefits them to play hardball, they are willing to play hardball, which is something the US doesn't have the nads to do any more. Back in the 50's/60's, the US played hardball too. Of course the internet wasn't around then to garner public outrage, but don't confuse popular outrage with how much hardball was being played. It's played now by China, and well.
China hasn't figured out how to make the big-big-rockets yet, but as soon as they can scale up they'll be able to competed on $/lb to orbit.
I think their current leader Long March 5 is slated to be able to deliver 25 tons to LEO, which is half of what Falcon Heavy promises to do.
But if the Chinese can scale up to something bigger, they should be able to win the price war, given all their other cost advantages.
Bhopal is in India, dumbass.
Yeah, soon, because now US outsource from the Russia.
It's also worth pointing out that their pricing has changed over time:
Current webpage: (http://www.spacex.com/falcon9.php)
Their webpage on Jan 2, 2010: (http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20100102224858/http://spacex.com/falcon9.php)
The Space Shuttle
The Delta series
The Atlas Series
The Araine series
They were all touted early on as being very inexpensive, prices ended up increasing much faster than inflation.
Of course those were all designed in the 70s, we shall see what the present brings
-
You just repeat the definition of innovation.
As Japan did before and rose to great heights. We never learn and instead have simply handed over almost all of our technology and manufacturing to them, and not surprisingly they are in the #2 spot now and poised to eclipse the US along with the rest of BRIC in as short as 3 years.Hopefully that will finally be enough to start to get our act together again, but IMO it will be too late.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
"standards = laws"?
This is a common difference between countries that have equatorial regions and none. The US can launch its spacecraft from Florida (or in the alternative Edwards AFB). This allows them to reach the right inclination with LESS energy (delta-V, fuel, money, take your pic). Good explanation at http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/Launch_Azimuth.
This is why the Space Shuttle could not simultaneously reach both the International Space Station AND the Hubble Space Telescope. To put it simply, the two were in such different inclinations (think "how do I tilt an orbit wheel over the earth, right, left, flat...") that the shuttle could only reach one or the other.
SpaceX launching from the US or central America will ALWAYS have to expend significantly less fuel than launches from China.
Inclination. It's a big word, but it means $$$.
Ehud
Tucson AZ
And how much has that hurt you? Are you without a job? In that case, would you have a job if Japan didn't exist? Did development in the US stop because of Japan, or is there other research still going on? Would the Prius have been built in the US if Japan didn't exist? Just curious on the reasoning.
I fail to see how loosing positions in ranking has any thing to do with that if life actually gets better for everyone. I'm not saying that is the case, just that it is an equally valid explanation.
Pfffft. As if America hadn't done the same. America, prior to signing onto international treaties on copyright and patents, was notorious for reverse-engineering European products and then using mass-production (as opposed to specialist workshops) to undercut the Europeans and sell back to them. Indeed, most major nations throughout history have been... loose on morals and ethics in their formative years. The Romans stole all their technologies - and usually stole the countries that invented them too. The only "we" in this equation is humanity, since every nation on Earth that made it big did so on the back of other nations, robbing them at first, then exploiting them later. The usual end result is an addiction to those other nations, resulting in the inevitable death from that addiction.
(This is why I would like to see a nation actually acheve something honestly for a change. If there isn't that addictive quality, if using others isn't the drug of choice, then you might actually get stable, sustainable achievement. Might. Without any actual case studies to examine, this is a difficult theory to test.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Old Soviet Jokes about the Chinese Space Program: 1. There is a knock on the door in the MIR space station. The cosmonauts open the door and see a Chinese guy. They ask him: "How did you get here". He responds: "Simple you see. We built a human pyramid" 2. TV Bulletin: "Yesterday, the Chinese launched their first satellite into space. During the launch, 2.45 million Chinese suffered a hernia."
-Palal
...it is a good thing even when US is not winning.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
"If the SpaceX price is real and its quality is proven, both are big IF's..."
"...Then the US government will quickly step in to make certain that pressure/taxes/fees/legislation/licensing/permitting/etc/etc are applied to SpaceX to assure their launch services are exorbitantly-priced so as not to appear "unfair" & "over-Capitalistic". After all, "We're all Socialists now", right?"
If they were to allow just anyone to have the ability to benefit from "cheap" access to LEO, it may upset the applecart of established political donors with predictable agendas compatible with the emergence of the NWO.
Soros, Rockefeller, Bilderburg, Obama, Stern, and Trumka wouldn't like that. It makes it hard to collapse economies, currencies, & governments when new profitable markets are opening up and entrepreneurs and small/medium-sized corporations are boosting the economy, employing people, and raising living standards & creating wealth. It's hard to get people to riot in the streets when they have a job, their standard of living is rising, and they are feeding themselves and their families.
Clearly, Space X is too competitive... It is time to raise the taxes on those greedy Space X guys. Time to feed the looters!!
You will see soon enough how much damage it truly has done. As a long-time investor, researcher, and currently in charge of a large global voice and data network for a global corp, I see it first-hand. A lot of research and many great books have been written on this topic, you should check some out and then see if your opinion holds. Japan as Number One, China Inc., and anything on the topic of BRIC are decent starting points in normal prose.
My personal opinion is that we are heading for a large fall and one that we will not quickly or easily climb out of. My best guess is that in 3-5 years China and BRIC (as well as allies they bring in as they get closer to #1) will start to flex their muscle, you can see the framework in place now. I am also guessing the quickest we could begin to recover will be 10-15 years, with 20 seeming not out of the question. Positions/rankings may not be important to you but they mean quite a lot in terms of resources and where they go, and many of the countries with the resources will go where the growth and numbers are... which is not the US, a number of those ties are already strained or deteriorating. Again, this is my opinion, but it is based on a lot of information. No one has a crystal ball, but I would be very shocked if I'm completely wrong.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Can anybody tell me why AFRICA isn't launching space rockets?
Anybody?
IQ?
China can't use their billion slaves to launch anything into space.
Space X lying about their capabilities and prices? No way. No company would lie to people!
I'm in solid agreement with you mostly, but there is a difference. Greed. Not just greed but artificial constructs such as the current stock market. Many European companies have endured and lasted perfectly fine on stability and flat/zero growth or very low percentages. And there is nothing wrong with that, but many US companies force massive, unsustainable, double digit growth in the name of stock prices and lining executive pockets and once they are run into the ground or fail spectacularly those execs simply move on to another company to rape. This has left many American businesses extremely weak and badly broken which is something that is a much deeper and serious. I think the US can and could innovate again, but first the infrastructure would need to be rebuilt and the desire to do so which we currently lack.
I actually don't care about patents and "secrets" as they are of marginal value anyhow in the grand scheme of things, it ultimately comes down to sustainability and the product. Every culture has gotten too big for it's britches at some point and most go supernova as a result, innovation be damned.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Except that Microsoft spends more on R&D than most other companies combined and often enters markets long before anyone else. (See Smart Phone, MP3 Players, Tablets etc...)
You're missing the point.
Just as Microsoft doesn't give a shit about standards (even their own, as proven by MS Office) the Chinese government doesn't really give a shit about laws.
Kinda like how icelandic government promised to pay back its loans but then the voters, who the government serves, decided to flip their creditors the bird instead?
FTFY
Whoever modded this post "flamebait" should look up the history of Samuel Slater, Francis Cabot Lowell, and others. America lagged far behind Britain at the end of the 18th century, but soon reached parity through a combination of technology purchase and straight up industrial espionage.
Except that Microsoft spends more on R&D than most other companies combined and often enters markets long before anyone else. (See Smart Phone, MP3 Players, Tablets etc...)
Black powder, printing, noodles.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
> eclipse the US along with the rest of BRIC in as short as 3 years
Brazil, Russia, and India?
So in other words: you have no idea what you're talking about. Ok.
The problem with that is, no modern technologies the Chinese have copied are "better" than the original. Their APC, tank and aviation products which are copies of Soviet, Russian and western designs are never better than the originals.
Their attempts at doing it themselves with their attack submarines, boomers, ICBMs and carriers have been costly and often out of service.
" both legally and not-legally"
Your legalities maybe.
Do you give a shit about Chinese laws/government and if so what shit would that be?
Is your protocol defective?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
As Japan did before and rose to great heights.
I see this notion being repeated again and again, but is there any actual basis for this? It seems to me that this was just a popular myth spread aging industrial economies. It's quite telling that Japanese cars and electronics targeted the premium market. It wasn't that they were making simpler, lower quality goods than the Europeans and Americans. It was because they were making newer, more advanced and higher quality products that they were able to make headway on the international market.
Have a look at the long-selling book "Japan as Number One" well over 30 years since it was published it is still a top seller and extremely highly rated. Also realize that Japan has the most, oldest, businesses still in operation.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Except that Microsoft spends more on R&D than most other companies combined and often enters markets long before anyone else. (See Smart Phone, MP3 Players, Tablets etc...)
MP3 players?
smart phones? I assume you were being sarcastic when you say Microsoft enters markets long before anyone else.
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
Please Mod Up!
First? Smartphones? You mean after palm? MP3 players? Really? Before apple maybe but not first.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
$49.5M at the end of 2009, taking 3% inflation into account, becomes $54M at the end of 2012...
They had "the bird" coming.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Was said bird puffin, and was it prepared in half a dozen disgusting ways? ;)
He may be bullet-proof, have the ability to fly, be a great baseball player, and/or Santa Claus.
Ok, I can buy your argument on greed and artificial constructs. As for your .sig, the Brits used espionage to steal tea secrets from the Chinese. As I said, all nations have used theft to get ahead. (For those interested in the history of tea, the Brits used to drink coffee. They switched to tea to protest government efforts to shut down the trade unions and other "unapproved" organizations. America switching to coffee as a protest against essentially the same government for essentially the same practices is one of history's greatest ironies.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I don't see what's so shocking about those numbers. Just under $6k per kilo? The cheapest US and European launch systems have long gotten $10k per kilo. What's so shocking about a 40% reduction in price per kilo from a totally new launch stack that makes use of "lessons learned"? And Russia's regular prices hover around $7k per kilo, with "specials" at $5k per kilo or less. China should be embarrassed that with their cheap labor costs, they can't do any better than $6k per kilo. They won't just be ceding the market to the US, but to India, too.
He may be bullet-proof, have the ability to fly, be a great baseball player, and/or Santa Claus.
China had a technological lead a long time ago, in the technologies you mention. With the Age of Enlightenment (decreased religious and political control of learning and thought), the printing press, and personal freedoms the West/Russia/Middle East leapt ahead. So, while you mention black powder, (block) printing, noodles, which are all great inventions you are choosing to selectively ignore the mammoth changes the West developed since. For example: free speech, modern printing press, mass literacy, railways, steam/coal/hydro/wind/nuclear power, true understanding of electricity and electromagnetism, true understanding of chemistry, true understanding of much of physics, electromagnetic communication, flight, blah blah blah blah blah. Sure the Chinese were by no means primitive, but you are also missing the elephant in the room when you mention their historic contributions. Hopefully they'll also contribute again meaningfully in the future, instead of just copying and refining ideas as they are doing know. That said, I still personally would not like to be a Chinese citizen living in China, hopefully individuals will have more meaningful existences there too.
Their subs have embarrassed the US more than once. And their military is a joke and they know it. They are paying the military welfare. Their military isn't intended to fight. Their military is intended to impress with numbers, as well as keep young males out of the cities. China is urbanizing faster than their economy can handle. People are flocking from the farms to the cities. If China didn't have such a large army, there'd be more bored unemployed males hanging around the slums.
And China gets the stuff done better (or if not better, then close enough that no one notices the deficiencies but at a much lower cost). Focusing solely on their military, which, unlike the US, treats their soldiers as expendable so that a greater amount of mediocre equipment for cheap is better than the best at any cost (as we get with the aversion to losses and love of spending the US has)
Learn to love Alaska
I actually deal in and drink high-end teas from Japan, China, and India. Hand processed and crafted. Tea history and trade is indeed interesting and I've got a soft spot for it :) Shincha, Gyokuro, Puer, Shui Xian, Huo Shan Huang Ya, Bi Lo Chun, Darjeeling, and the like. If I'm sick or just in the mood my low-end cuppa of choice is either PG Tips or Luzianne.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
People have been predicting doom for the US ever since the country was founded. China is already starting to lose the advantage of lower labor costs to other countries that are trying to enter into international trade agreements. China does not exist in a vacuum. All the predictions about them overtaken the US depend on the Chinese government not making any missteps and not having to contend with any problems or changes inside the country. In the past 6 months China has been dealing with rising inflation and have reported a trade deficit in the last quarter. They went from surplus to deficit for the first time in 15 years. They also undervalue their currency to boost their economy instead of letting their currency float in the international markets. Their continued growth depends on trading with the US and anytime the US goes through difficult times it also effects their economy. I think America's best chance of staying competitive is in developing and implementing new alternative energy sources. This one advance alone would lessen the need for imported energy sources, help stand down the resource "cold war" that is currently building up, and help the environment.
There were CE based smartphones in 2000, two years before the first Treo which wasn't even from Palm but rather from Handspring.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
And this is why I specifically mentioned BRIC, China being the top dog in the group. It's not some guess or B.S. the actual numbers don't lie. Use any projection you like.
Just this year China surpassed Japan as #2 officially and even the most conservative estimates show China at parity with the US in 9-10 years. Most show 5. I'm saying 3-5 because with the rest of BRIC they can begin flexing their might in about 3 safely, and 5-10 for full effect.
I'm not a doom and gloom soothsayer, I'm an intelligent investor that has a lot of business experience and research in this area. Could I be wrong? Sure. We will know in our lifetimes, so we'll be able to see.
I'd be interested to know how you think the US will avoid losing resources to India and China, and how we will compete with an almost purely service-based industry at home with only global corporations? China holds a lot of our debt and has a number of other key strategic pieces in place as well.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
USA: If Walmart was a country.
China: If China was Walmart/USA's preferred vendor.
Damn. That could actually HAPPEN!
This space available.
your a fucking idiot. shut the fuck up.
won't take long for the chinese to realise that the spacex prices are just marketing fluff.
i'll believe their prices when i see their business booming. otherwise its just hype to try get business away from the russians.
spacex will be bankrupt soon anyway. shareholders don't like risk, and space is the riskiest business there is.
not to mention the us has an extremely restrictive (and expensive) licensing and insurance bureaucracy for private space companies.
refer to http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/barriers_to_space_enterprise.shtml
the Chinese government doesn't really give a shit about laws.
Good. Next time try go to Tiananmen Square in Beijing and burn the Chinese flag, and see if the authorities give a shit about its laws.
New Economic Perspectives
Ah yes, their vaunted submarine tactics. Plot the known course of a carrier group, and sit motionless and in-location along that path. Hmm... why won't this happen in war.
and finally wind up doing it better or at least more cheaply than we can.
You mean more cheaply, I haven't been hearing any rave reviews of quality Chinese products. A punitive tariff on Chinese products seems to make more and sense, as this is not some mutually beneficial relationship, it's extremely onesided.
The only thing we are getting are worse quality products, although marginally cheape
What a stupid thing to say. China is in this to destroy the west. They have more barriers to trade TODAY (over 400 and increasing) then when Clinton made the deal with them less than 90 back then. They manipulate their money against the dollar and subsidize ANY business that is failing.
And you think that they will outsource to the USA or even EU?
Seriously?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
More like
China: what USA will be if Republicans could gain full control.
> And China gets the stuff done better (or if not better, then close enough that no one notices the deficiencies but at a much lower cost).
Heh. Sounds like you don't really follow news from China. Like the materials stolen from government construction projects like the three gorges dam (double digit percentages of the concrete never made it to the dam...). Or the bridge that started to crumble, revealing the center of the supports was plastic bags and styrofoam. Or the melamine issues. Or the apartment building that fell over (very shallow pilings on very shifty ground). Or the high rejection rate of stuff manufactured in China not passing quality control elsewhere. Or the video of the crash test of the Chinese SUV - that was so catastrophic at 35mph that the testers were laughing in the background. Or the subs that sink just off the coast with all hands lost. Or the cooking oil made from sewage.
No, I'm sorry, but they haven't figured out how to do a lot of the normal stuff passably all right yet, let alone the high quality stuff. There's something different going on here, I don't know what exactly. But when people went from "meh, Japanese stuff is cheap crap" to buying Japanese inside a 10-15 year span, it was because the Japanese stuff had hit parity with the US and Euro stuff. We're 20 years into the Chinese boom and the same hasn't happened yet. (and in the same time span, South Korea made huge strides). I suspect the switchover has to start with China having a large middle class that demands quality from local goods, which then propagates through the whole structure; if that were to start now, then we'd see it happen in the following 10-15 years. But the articles I'm seeing about the Chinese middle class are that the real estate bubble is crushing them, so I have to push that estimate back a couple years - and that's assuming no catastrophic bubble burst. (They've passed the point where more than half of housing purchases are speculative investment, not living space...)
If the US is able to develop new energy sources and reduces it's the need for imported oil that will be a severe blow to those countries who do nothing but export oil. Once that happens I believe it will ripple throughout the global economy causing some serious upheavals that will require a totally new international trade approach for many countries including the US. The forecast for future growth in China never seems to consider the potential problems the Chinese government will need to deal with in the coming years. This includes workforce related issues and their citizens continued unquestioning subservience to their government. If they lose control of the public the economy will be the least of their problems. In some respects the Chinese leadership is more restrictive than some of those countries currently experiencing political upheavals throughout the Middle-east and Africa. China will also need to compete with India and all the other countries in that part of the world that can nullify China's biggest advantage which is labor cost. The US has been a service orientated economy however the US is still the worlds #1 manufacturer. Will that continue? I honestly don't know. China only holds an estimated 6% of the outstanding US dept instruments which is a long way from declaring they own the US as a lot of people state today.If you look at 2 metrics you will see that the US debt level is a relatively small percentage of the overall economy. Also look at the per person GNP figures and you will see the US has a huge lead in that area.
"U.S. components; Russian components; ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!"
The people in charge of the Chinese space program are probably old-school Communist era types, and are running things accordingly. This will inevitably drive costs up, preventing them from being competitive. If they're really serious about providing cost-effective launch capability, they should probably turn over management of their space program to Foxconn...
They'll do the same thing they've been doing for generations now: they'll study what we're doing (e.g. SpaceX), both legally and not-legally
Still beats giving American citizenship to nazis who otherwise should have been hung in Nuremberg like you people did.
Go to any business school. They teach this maxim: "A businessman's role is not to make profits, but to maximize profits.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The rockets from china are flying, they have actual numbers to work with for cost. SpaceX isn't there yet, their numbers are projections. The main cost difference between mass production and prototypes is labour costs, where the Chinese have the advantage. I don't think they would outsource to the USA even if it was a tenth of the price, it's both national pride and national security at stake. Countries succeed because people want them to. Americans are so busy grabbing a piece of the pie (money) that they can't be bothered to care about their own country. American jobs don't go to china because it's cheaper, they go because american managers care more about profits than they do about their country.
China now has more skilled labour than the US does.
China holds a lot of our debt
So what if they do? The US Treasury will pay that debt, at a fixed interest rate, no matter who holds it. How does this give China any power over the US?
...the Chinese rockets have achieved 75 consecutive successful launches were conducted.
So, were they achieved or simply conducted? Perhaps they achieved 75 successful conductors to launch...
The parent is spot on. Even if dead wrong, I seriously doubt the PRC would engage in much/any outsourcing of space launches. The Chinese (and US/Russian/EU) governments consider space launch capability a strategic military and economic asset, degraded or lost at the peril of the nation, regardless of short term economic concerns.
Luke, help me take this mask off
I never said the United States didn't do the same thing. It certainly did, as have many other nations. I didn't mention it for brevity and because I figured it was self-evident (basic human behavior).
Sounds like you should go back to AC trolling since reading comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
1. Wrong country. The dipshits who'll go on a holy crusade just because someone is burning a colored piece of cloth are one more continent to the right.
2. If Microsoft conforms someone else's standard's it's usually either by accident or because something to do so. Same with foreign laws in case of the Chinese.
Even Internet Explorer doesn't fully conform to Microsoft's Javascript dialect, same with Microsoft's certified XML-based document format which even their office suite doesn't adhere to.Just like many law-abiding Chinese citizens still find found themselves in a labor camp within a matter of hours if someone didn't like the way they look or might have thought. And of course th current cases where women are abducted because small backwater towns need wives to survive and the state looks the other way or goes through the motions at best.
* One continent to the left. Freudian slip, since by other continent's standards even their "leftists" are considered far-right nutjobs.
China will also have to compete against India and Africa as well for cheap labor and technology. Until global economic equilibrium has been reached with regards to the flow of wealth from nation to nation, it will always be more cost effective to outsource vs doing business locally.
As I've said before. America's problems can't be solved with trickle-down or trickle-up policies. That's because were facing trickle-OUT. So until we can stop the hemorrhaging of wealth from our nation, we'll never pay off our debt. At worse, we default.
Life is not for the lazy.
On second thought: Eastern Europe, United States, ... Same corrupt politician scumbags.
I now almost exclusively drink high-end teas. I used to like Tetley but it now tastes thoo rough for me. PG Tips is good. Yorkshire Gold Blend is also great. If you've not tried it, do so. Of the high end, my preference is for Hao Ya A but I'm not earning enough to keep up. What importers do you use? Upton is ok but some of the high-end tea shops in Portland are getting higher-grade imports than them so I know there's better.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Almost forgot. If you like tea history and don't have this link, shame on you.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Still beats giving American citizenship to nazis who otherwise should have been hung in Nuremberg like you people did.
Are you referring to Wernher von Braun? Is it your conclusion that we should have executed him, and that we would have save for his utility to NASA, putting men on the moon, and establishing out nuclear ICBM deterrent? If he met the standard for death, millions of other Germans would have merited the same, and a post war holocaust against Germany would have been condign. That's rather sick, but the lust for revenge is never sated.
Anyway, everybody is drinking cofee nowadays.
China might be able to copy the blueprints, but they don't have the skilled workers (SpaceX has raided the workforce of several long-time aerospace companies, including Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and others), the industrial infrastructure (the SpaceX factory is a former Boeing plant that made 747s), and far and away more important:
The competitive drive coming from running Silicon Valley start ups that deliberately cuts out bureaucracy and hates hierarchical organizations as only a necessary evil. The People's Liberation Army is not going to reverse-engineer SpaceX without them becoming essentially a "liberal" democratic society that respects human rights and permits freedom of speech, thoughts, and actions.
China wants central planning and control. That works fine for some projects, and is the way that NASA has been running things for decades. It is also the source of problems for NASA and why nothing new seems to be coming from JSC or for that matter any other NASA center that actually makes it into the skies.
What keeps SpaceX on their toes isn't the major "traditional spaceflight" companies like Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, it is the dozens or more start-ups that can all easily take their place as the darling new aerospace company, some of which are doing things even more efficient and perhaps better than SpaceX. There isn't anything special about this one company, other than they have a sugar daddy who had some money (now spent mostly) to get them going in the first place. Remember where Elon Musk got his start, and that explains quite a bit about how he is running his companies too.
The Icelandic government didn't borrow anything. The private bank Icesave borrowed a lot of money from banks and individuals primarily in the UK and the Netherlands. It went bankrupt, and the Dutch and UK governments decided to pay the banks and individuals what Icesave owed them. Very kind of those governments. Afterwards they decided they wanted the money from the Icelandic government.
Is it any surprise that the Icelandic public is failing to see why they should bail out private investors and banks in other countries, when no guarantee was issued in the first place? I am sure the US public is having similar difficulties with why they had to bail out the US credit institutions, but at least in that case they could vote out the politicians who did it.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Nokia had smart phones basically since 9600bps became possible over GSM. They were heavy and awkward to use, of course, but the Windows CE phones were worse, so that is hardly an argument in favour of Microsoft.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
If you count in the cost of human lives, impact on worker's welfare, that is.
While this is obviously flaming away without hard facts, I agree with the sentiment. The original poster above doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about, either with Tesla Motors (ever heard of the Model "S" or the "Bluestar"?) or with SpaceX.
Ponzi scheme? I doubt that poster even knows what those words even represent.
I'm replying here because I want moderators to know this response was short, articulate, and to the point. Moreover, it is all the GP post deserved in reply.
Which brings us to the interesting notion that perhaps all patents (and copyright) are just crutches, empty protectionism. You can expect to enforce them locally, but never on a global scale. So every time you enforce a patent in your country, what you're actually doing is handicapping your own people in the face of those in another country, who have no qualms about copying and improving what you did.
Where copyright is concerned, "who did it first" actually counts for something because the original has special status. But in the case of patents (and software!) it doesn't, because modification and improvement comes with the territorry, it's part of the normal evolution of technology.
ya that f35 you told canada about ten years ago would cost 75 million tat you cant say for sure and is about 130 million at least....
YA if china cant beet your price someone is lying and i doubt its the Chinese.
Mother of God, China's already embraced and extended us. HOW LONG UNTIL WE'RE EXTINGUISHED?!
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
IIRC the big thing that drove it (though I can't cite a source because I'm going off a lecture I heard years ago) was TQM.
Essentially, for years Japanese firms were well-known for producing cheap, nasty knock-offs of Western products. And I mean really cheap and nasty. Sure, companies occasionally outsourced manufacturing to Japan but in such cases, by and large the design was kept in the west and Japan just provided the factories and built products to Western specifications.
Thinking about it, that's not too different from how things are working out in China now.
Anyhow, the story goes that a number of Japanese firms got rather fed up of being known as suppliers of cheap knock-offs. So the companies which had hitherto been designing and building knock-offs started to develop quality control practices - practices which at the time were probably superior to what much of the West was using. This was combined with their expertise in getting things done cheaply, and the result is what we have now.
All this takes time, you understand. Many years of incremental improvements, many years to shake off the old reputation.
The theory is that sooner rather than later, the Chinese firms producing cheap knock-offs will have the same idea. Doubtless they won't be able to produce for the same price as what they're doing now, but they don't need to. They just need to be able to produce at a price that's competitive, not a price that's so absurdly competitive everyone else may as well give up. I wouldn't be too surprised if they wind up doing just that and some of the better-connected African countries will become the next world source for cheap knock-offs.
Glass. China never invented glass, so it stagnated. No lenses or slides makes it hard to do chemistry, physics, biology etc.
So, there were guarantees, and it wasn't a private bank anymore.
From wikipedia: the government also guaranteed "that deposits in domestic commercial and savings banks and their branches in Iceland will be fully covered"
First, keep in mind that SpaceX is currently funded by venture capital and government contracts yet to be fulfilled on their end. Very likely they are either launching at cost or at a loss, which is necessary at this stage but it is obviously not sustainable. Ultimately, SpaceX is for-profit and they will have to find a way to make it worthwhile for the investors. Right now, it is simply a strategic move to keep prices low in order to grow the market and their role in it.
On the other hand, the Chinese don't do loss leaders. The price they are giving today is more or less the final price that it's always going to be, not counting inflation or sudden changes in demand. And chances are that by the end, the Chinese price is going to be significantly cheaper than the final price that SpaceX will want. The Chinese are incredulous about SpaceX's price because they know it doesn't add up, and they're right. But a strategically wise move in a monopoly-friendly Western market is not necessarily so in an infringement-friendly Chinese market.
Actually, that's a pretty good analogy. China had black powder, what, a thousand years before Europe? But they never used it for military purposes. Microsoft spends something like $5bn/year on research and generates some really interesting papers, 99% of which never makes it into Microsoft products.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
You're missing the grandparent's point. What did Japan's ascendency do that hurt the USA? As I recall, the rise of Japan as a technological exporter did a lot of good for the USA. Both countries benefitted a lot from joint ventures and trade.
It would be very surprising if China didn't eventually surpass Japan. They've got a much bigger land area and population, meaning that they have a lot more resources. The top 10% of the Chinese population contains about as many people as the entire Japanese population. In terms of innovation, this means that China can focus education on 5% of its population and still end up with a greater number of researchers than Japan. As China's industrial revolution progresses, this 5% is going to expand.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Where did you hear that bullshit? Do you ever confirm anything before you parrot?
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
I would be pretty certain that there is a law against burning the Chinese flag in China. Just because the US has ruled that flag burning is legal under its constitution does not mean that the same applies in other countries. I think that if you tries that stunt, you would be dragged off quite legally.
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
No - idiots who think the cold war was the good old days think they would like a new one with China. Yes they have spies in the USA and have had for many years - so do some of the military allies of the USA and nations that get aid from the USA, let alone the USA doing the same to Airbus in Europe and getting caught doing it. Yes it's a totalitarian state but the cold war fantasy is a quite disgusting and damaging fantasy from those that really would want to make the USA a lot more like China.
Are you implying that rocket scientists, machinists, programmers etc deserve to be paid less because of their ethnic origin. That's racist, and you know it, you filthy Louisiana redneck sarcastic stereotype.
You've got a perfectly good argument available if you claim that rocket scientists, machinists, etc deserve to be paid less if they're subject to lower living costs, but that is a much more complex argument to make, and also much more time-variable (what are the actual living costs in the few hundred km around the major Chinese launch complex(-es)? ; and compared to Houston / Florida / California / Guyana / India / Kazakstan?).
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You are confusing cost of labor with cost of development. Of course China can't cut the technology costs. The only reason Chinese products are so cheap is that they can afford to cut the labor price down to nothing.
Suppose that in 5 years China is #1 in this ranking. What effect will this have on me, as an ordinary US citizen(*) - how is it going to change my life? Maybe some guy in China will be richer than me, but why do I care? Maybe my company will be owned by Chinese shareholders, but again, why do I care?
(*)I don't actually live in the US, but assume I do
I am trolling
Black powder, printing, noodles.
While I agree with you that the Noodle market is huge, I'm comforted by these things that make it obvious China shouldn't wipe us off the face of the Earth if we don't assimilate into communism.
What held the Chinese back was not inventing glass.
Without glass you can't make lenses, so no spectacles which means most academics were unable to carry on working much past the age of 30, not to mention all those who could have been great minds if only they could see properly. Without lenses there are also no microscopes, telescopes or prisms. Without glass you can't see the state of things inside glass beakers, you can't have windows which allow you to work with natural light even in bad weather...
Democracy and freedom come from an educated and advanced society. China is only now reaching that point because it was held back by being unable to advance its sciences beyond a certain point without glass.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I am an importer, I've dealt in tea for about 12 years or so now. Upton's best would be about my lowest grade tea, there are better alternatives at the same or close in price that are exponentially better in quality, freshness, and flavor. I mostly work directly with the estates and growers and have a number of great friendships with some of the best, I also use a large percentage to give back to the workers and the communities around the tea estates.
It does seem expensive but when you break down the costs it is actually quite affordable for all but the very top expensive teas. It can be hard spending $25-100 on only 20-40g of tea, but most can be had at $20-40 for 100-250g at a high enough quality that you can suppliment it with a treat of the higher-end stuff once in a while and still not break the bank.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
This is similar to what has happened to the Arabic countries. Look in any star atlas - most of the stars have Arabic names. They were the leaders in astronomy and other areas of study from 750 - 1250 AD. What happened? What contributions have they made to science since then? Sadly, only the science of rigid, theocratic thinking.
Same thing with you you moron!!!! protocol not working?
Don't you know what the Law is?
Certainly in the UK Law is natural, ignorance is no defense, right?/s
Legal on the other hand... well that's about morality and subjective, nothing legal is ever above the natural law... (well till the scumbags [There are a couple of curtain twitches living next to me, I like to id them ICD10-V-F99]) Are you Guilty or Innocent?
I found it perfectly legal to call you a moron, it may not comply with your protocol though. You do know what a protocol is don't you?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I'm not sure how you think I am going to go into a full discourse on this entire issue here on slashdot. I'm not, I've offered some great reading and information for you to check out and it may or may not change your opinion. You are trying to massively simplify something that is extremely complex which is why it is impossible for me to go into any detail without a massive effort. BRIC along with Africa will be a very large and powerful force to be reckoned with and they know it, they already are but are laying back and waiting for the right time to begin to impose their will more freely which is smart. I work for a global company with very secret and military technologies at its core and we have a very large Asian presence, I see a lot of the changes and groundwork happening that supports many of the theories and thoughts on how these rankings and economic standings will effect everyone.
I could type forever and not convince you. The only thing I can say is to educate yourself on the main history and current theories at play here and decide if you want to believe them in whole or in part. These changes will happen in our lifetime so we will certainly see and feel the repercussions no matter which way things shift. Everyone will be impacted whether from an economic/power standpoint or a resource standpoint. You and I will be affected, to what extent and exactly how... we will see soon enough.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
I have no idea where your from but here's a short random list:
SECAM, france
Iceland going independent.
UK not teaching languages in schools.
US GM Foods
Mugabe, well, Mugabe.
Mobile phone chargers
Apple (flash for instance.. but it's fairly easy to find more)
Google (data scraping / street view)
Sony (fuckers)
The Catholic Church
Martin Luther
Emancipation of various types
Prohibition
Oliver Cromwell
The Romans
Jesus
Buddha
The Israelite
The Egyptians
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
What on Earth are you talking about? It's a simple fact that Chinese salaries for things like industrial production are much lower than in the US. It has nothing to do with who deserves what.
If you want to post anything else, you're going to have to yell; I'm having trouble hearing you because your horse is so high.
He may be bullet-proof, have the ability to fly, be a great baseball player, and/or Santa Claus.
But they never used it for military purposes.
LOLWUT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder#Development_in_China
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sciencetech/earliest-gunpowder-weapons-history/19198
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Sorry to hear there are at least two more none idiots who don't understand basic physics. ;-)
That's OK, neither does Elon Musk
China: what USA will be if Republicans could gain full control.
Some have argued Mexico would be a better example. And it makes sense: A country where megacorps pay literally pocket change for taxes, a large underclass of poor people who live in slums and work for peanuts, a full-on paramilitary war on drugs...the only difference is that Mexico isn't authoritarian enough for this example, while China is probably too authoritarian.
Probably.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The summary is a mess. It's one thing to have a typo, but it's another thing to have word assemblages that cannot be construed to be sentences. Why have a summary? Why not just provide a link?
Windows Mobile derived from Palm you mean? The company that got its start making software for Apple's Newton? Nice original research there.
The MP3 player long predates Microsoft's interest in it. I was ripping my CDs to RealAudio format for digital listening long before Napster.
The Tablet is arguable ... but considering their first tablet computers were just laptops without keyboards and very minimal touch interfaces, I'd hate to brag about that either. Considering my Newton MessagePad could out-do the Microsoft tablet at almost everything (except a colour display) when they were first released, I wouldn't put that on Microsoft's resume.
As for software, Microsoft primarily purchases third party software and then brings it in-house. They did it with an awful lot of the software you may know and love today.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
There where? Wow they where so bad that even I didn't notice them?
I did look it up just now on Wikipedia and that source says that you are incorrect.
They list the first smartphone as the IBM Simon from 1992 followed by the Nokia N9000 communicator from 1996 they actually have Microsoft as not shipping until 2002 after the Palm powered Kyocera 6035 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyocera_6035.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone#History
So it would seem that from that history that IBM, PALM, and Nokia with different partners where yeas ahead of Microsoft in the smartphone market. .
It also didn't have the first tablet. I am very sure that Grid beat them to that with the GridPad.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
No, Japan started their inroads into the American economy selling cheap, low quality products. They were also typically smaller than American-made counterparts, such as sub-compact cars and transistorized radios, which made them popular even though they were not considered high quality. It wasn't until much later that they began to target the premium market.
Yes that is what they will try, but by the time they are ready to try their own society will be the bloated mess described above as well as ours and the real winner will be somewhere in Africa or South America
Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
But but they hold a lot of our debt so they own us.
So you are saying he is right. The US will not be the preeminent power in the world. This will affect you, as a maker of weapons (because as soon as you are not number one, spending gets reduced to "really painful to take over, but not trying to take over anyone" levels). But him, as an ordinary citizen will only enjoy a greater variety of better, cheaper products.
If you think life is worth living only as the only superpower on the planet, well, time to think about how to end your misery. But for ordinary citizens, European powers not being so power hungry was a great improvement in terms of quality of life. It is even quite possible the social democracy is the specific result of freeing so much defense spending and transferring it to social welfare.
Which is highly desirable.
MS didn't ship a phone optimized version of CE until 2002 but there were partners using regular CE for smartphones in 2000. I guess that Kyocera phone qualifies as a Palm based smartphone but since I never saw one in person I'm not sure how much of an impact they had on the market, the Treo was the first one in any kind of widespread use.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
At the point, the US should default (ha ha ha! fuck you China!). We can also stop funding Israel, Egypt, Mexico, and the rest of the parasites that have been draining the US for the last 30 years or so. We can adopt a new military policy - piss us of, we nuke you (it's cheaper) and pull out of NATO (another parasite of American funding). As for outsourcing, it's simple - you outsource and your taxes go to 99%.
And how much impact did those CE phones have? The Treo was really the first mass market Smartphone in the US. Nokia probably has that title in Europe with one of their phones. But what it all comes down to is Microsoft did not pioneer the smartphone space as the person I was replying to said they did. It was in fact IBM and later others. They didn't pioneer the tablet space. You could say that Gene Roddenberry did, or Alan Kay at Xerox PARC with the DynaBook concept. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dynabook
Or even GRID systems with the GRIDPad https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/GRiDPad did. And as for the MP3 market well not even close. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Digital_audio_player#History The on I remember is the RIO but event that wasn't the first it is probably just the first that was popular.
Microsoft outside of Windows. Office, and XBox really does have a really bad history at innovation and bringing new tech to the market. The fact that Apple could walk away with the smart phone market and the Tablet market when Microsoft has been in both those markets for years should say it all. I fear Microsoft lacks passion for anything but market share and because of that they are no excelling at new markets.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
No, I agree with you. BUT, to think it will not impact the "ordinary citizen" (which is my actual concern, not business and certainly not the job I am at now which I have philosophical issues with) is not correct. The "ordinary citizen" is where the pain will be felt. A global company and executives can roam freely and simply follow the money, an individual cannot. Once you have three (BIC) middle classes coming up, where are all of the resources going to come from? With a devalued dollar and declining growth why would resources go to say the US or even to many EU countries? Then Africa begins to enter the picture. How can this be sustainable? It will lead to scarcity and very clear lines being drawn and alliances forged, the US will be the kind of chubby kid picked in the middle for a game of kickball... not dead last, but not first either. People cite the US as #1 in manufacturing but I don't see that as realistic or sustainable either. The US as a whole is not as sustainable as say an EU country.
Again this is all so very complex, not one of us here can hope to even cover it all with the broadest of brush. We need to look at artificial constructs like the stock market, and the need for high percentage growth, and ever upward stock prices and executive pay. This seems like a positive until the company is run into the ground in the name of greed and money and then the fat rats jump ship and begin anew... it is what we have done to our government and we are going to approach that point where we run it into the ground and the people most affected will be the ordinary citizen.
I, personally, hate big business, and the corporatization of our country in the name of capitalism. I dislike the US as being the bully on the block. I hate war, and if the company I am with didn't also make almost every other thing possible I would never stay (surgery, cars, microprocessors, etc.). I only invest so that I can free myself from the grind and system as soon as possible, not to make millions, but to just live simply and on my terms. I'm actually for the Swedish concept of "Loggom" which basically translates to "enough" that each and every person should have enough. Not flawed government systems, but a standardized enough. A small apartment, a set ration of food and basic necessities, some basic childcare, and basic but comprehensive healthcare. For some this would be enough and they would be happy and instead of a drain on the system would have to make due with this and this alone, drop all other programs. For many they will want to achieve and surpass this. For many more this is the kind of safety net they would never have coming from a poor or bad background and would allow them to take a risk and bring something new to the table without fear of ruining their life or falling into debt they could never get out of. I have found that this would save a tremendous amount of money all around and increase quality of life for everyone. It would spur growth and development and also foster more creative pursuits and innovation.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
They need to gang up huge numbers of small modules.
They should talk to Carmack about his if they want to play to their strength.
Seastead this.
I'm no rocket scientist.
Given that the Space Shuttle (RIP) has 5 motors, and failed approximately 1-in-50 launches, does this imply the Falcon with 27 motors should fail >1-in-10 launches?
irony? no more space shuttles but we will provide you with extraterrestrial dominance components if you pay us in rare raw materials that are unfortunately not available on our soil ?
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
You state a lot of interesting informtion however worrying about Africa becoming a powerful force to deal with is a little farfetched at least for the next 50 years or so at whcih time I could not give a shit. Maybe sooner if a continent wide war accompanied with deprivation and starvation de-populates a sizeable part of the continent. Every attempt to help an African country advance has been met with failure. Chinas biggest advantage is their government doesn't have to put up with any crap from the proletariat and can do anything they damn well please. They don't have to deal with any union protesters, save the environment protesters, freedom of speech protesters, or any other type of protesters that usually get in the damn way when trying to advance economically. And what's really bad is all those people rooting for China to overtake the US and without a single concern of what the world would be like living under a dominate China. The only good thing would be that all those people complaining about the evils perpetrated by the US will be the first group to get spiked by our new Chinese overlords.
Nothing is louder than a horse freaking out... Oh, different kind of high horse.
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
Ok, not that any of those ideas will really work, but "if you outsource we will tax you 99%" is basically saying "Hey international businesses! Don't put your headquarters here! Send all that money to another government!" Fucking idiot. Lets take the United States economy and make it even less relevant! Its the only way to balance the trade deficit!
If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
I hadn't worded it the best but I meant as Africa gains the cheap labor jobs and begins to develop or even approach a middle-class as India and China are now and Brazil is on it's way. Russia is the wildcard and will surely glom on and ride what it can, if it succeeds that is another. That is a massive draw on resources and many rare and fairly rare substances are already spiking now.
I certainly am not saying China taking over is a positive, it isn't, in fact it is scary but we are heading in that direction no matter how slowly or quickly it actually comes to fruition. What I would love to see is a withdrawl from "globalization" and get back to national business and economies... I don't see it happening, but I'd love to see it. I see nothing but war as a possible outcome and the US is not going to want to give up power without a fight any way they can. China is already working on information/cyber warfare and has been pretty blatant about their moves. Any way you slice it, BRIC is the alliance to watch and fear... whomever else goes in that direction only tips the scales more and I just don't see America's role or even place in it. Either we join and try to mitigate it, which I think we could for a short while but not long term, or we rebel and try to amass enough support to keep things semi-stable.
I am not trying to be all doom and gloom and these are extremes, but some version or part of this version is going to play out. How much and when are the unknowns, but simply believeing it won't happen or have no impact on the average person is folly IMO.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
America, prior to signing onto international treaties on copyright and patents, was notorious for reverse-engineering European products...
[Citation needed].
Uh that's like saying that if Hasbro owes China lots of money payable in Monopoly money that means China owns Hasbro.
;).
Another thing it's cheaper for the US Gov to create US dollars than it is for Hasbro to print Monopoly money
the Tesla Roadster is another bullshit in action (claiming 300hp, with a ~50kWh (a bit suspect even here, given that a Prius has a battery capacity of ~1kWh) battery and a range of some 250 miles? 300hp is about 200kW, if the roadster is traveling 200mph, 50kWh gives you about 1/4h run time, which equals about 50 miles...bullshit claims QED).
Name a single car that gets its advertised city/highway mileage while operating at 100% output or 200mph. Either one will do.
Timesaving hint: there are none.
:x
I didn't mean to imply you were a doom amd gloom person I was referring to the teeming masses who do nothing but complain about the US and how good everything will be once China or any other country for that matter takes over. Personally I think the US influence on the international stage has been highly exaggerated over the years. Theres not doubt about the military aspect but even that power becomes inconsequential when dealing with countries like Russia or China. If the US truly possesed all the powers they are accused of having wouldn't things be better in the US? Sort of like proclaiming that Isreal runs the US. If Isreal was as powerful as people claim wouldn't things be better for them? The more influencial the US is perceived the easier it becomes to scapegoat and blame for all the worlds problems. Not that the US doesn't cause some problems and wield some influence it is just not as dominating as people tend to think. Even during the cold war the smaller countries that were being used as proxies for the US and USSR had leverage over the US. They had the power to request all kinds of perks from the US and if they didn't get it the Russians would have been happy to oblige. That's why the US was forced to support the autocrats and dictators of 3rd rate countries. The other option would have involved the massive use of force to gain cooperation. There will be turmoil in the future as resources start to dwindle and this will more than likely result in a wide spread war with everybody losing in the end. Developing new energy sources would go a long way in reducing the risk and postponing a global collapse. I just hope we can hold that off for at least another 50 years when it will cease to be a problem for me. The people in the US need to refocus their attention on the corporations in the US instead of the hapless government that has proven over and over that they are either unwilling or unable to protect the public and society from corporate exploitation. Corporations are a lot more vulnerable then the government. Well researched and documented attacks on corporate inequities would help change corporate behavior in the country. The people running these corporations have a very low threshold for open criticism, especiually when cameras start following them around. The most effective way to do this would be to take on one corporation at a time instead of the industry level.
And your argument only confirms that China is like Microsoft by demonstrating that the west is like Apple ;-)
It is nice to know that you live in an alternate universe that has different laws of physics. I don't understand the laws of the universe you inhabit, but I do understand those in this particular universe.
Sort of like te same way we [the Americans] did it to the Germans [and Russians] their space program(s). Then a war occurs and you know what happens next....
Any sources you can point me to would be appreciated. (QiMen Black tea from Tea-of-Chinese costs $80 for 250g. That's twice your upper estimate, so either it's the greatest tea ever made or they're ripping people sideways.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Why? Were the cites given by goodmanj flawed?And if so, why's this not a reply to their post?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It was featured on QI. It's quite ironic that people are just blindly repeating it, considering the show's theme is "question what you think you know".
Clearly he's never seen Mulan. It's like all those myths about the Native Americans being a bunch of peaceful noble savages, more or less utter bullshit.
Holy crap that was so stupid... how is this shit on TV anywhere? In the first place pottery, if not necessarily porcelain, preceded glass EVERYWHERE, but secondly in Science and Civilisation in China Volume 4, Part 1 Dr. Joseph Needham writes at length about optics in dynastic China, including "burning-lenses" in use during the Tang Dynasty that were essentially magnifying glasses applied to concentrate sunlight to cauterize wounds.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
Correct. What the Brits did to Iceland was an act of war. I encourage Iceland to take every low-risk opportunity to retaliate, including to have all the Brits who conspired listed with Interpol.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
So? The big international businesses are already based here, and totally ripping us off. If we change the rules, they will have no alternative to repatriate their real profits and pay the full tax. The importers too can be made to pay in tariffs the difference between their slave-labor, no-safety, no-benefits, ultra-polluting China prices and what it would cost them to produce in the US. (Plus penalties.) Not that that will happen, considering the endemic corruption in both countries. This is the only policy that could pull the US back from the brink of destruction, and then only if the war profiteering contractors' receipts are cut back to 2000 levels or below. But it's not going to happen. The US is headed for the shit-pile of self-destructive empires.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
They started to believe too much in their idiotic religion.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Which should also be a warning to the Christians and the Jews trying to enforce the dictates of their own hateful dogmatic claptrap, BTW.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Margaret's Hope white tea makes the average Darjeeling taste like Lipton.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
"You can expect to enforce them locally"
Not even. Patents are just an expensive license to sue, and actually suing costs millions. Patents may somewhat improve the prospects for finding a venture capitalist to fuck you, but they are rarely enforceable even in the US, even with gobs of cash, especially if they are a fundamental advance or a mere improvement on existing methods (which pretty much covers all potentially profitable patents).
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Keemun/Qi Men can be an expensive tea. For instance, for my highest end I'd be at around $72-ish for 200g but it is one of the finest produced. One of the ways you can tell quality in this is that at that quality you could literally brew it for 20 minutes and it would never get bitter. With Keemun price isn't the big determining factor, but what flavor you like in it. Some are floral almost rose-like (that would be the one I mentioned above that is very expensive). Some are fruity and a little floral (these are much cheaper at about $35 for 200g) and some are sweet and very bold, also around $35 for 200g. I also have access to some award winning Xian Zhen which is more like $100 for 200g it is almost pure fruity in nature.
If you have any interest, feel free to contact me via my blog in my sig and I can see what I can do for you. I offer smaller amounts 50g, 100g too which are cheaper. And I'm not self-promoting, I actually use almost all of the profits to help give back to charities I created in the regions my tea is from and most often for the families and children of the tea workers. I just like helping and helping to bring people truly amazing tea because too often people are getting taken for a ride.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
If you want to blow your mind try to find Arya pearls. I prefer Margaret's Hope muscatel DJs, that have a muscat grapey notes
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Excellent point (btw. I'm an ex-astrophysicist so know a bit about the 'astronomy' side of things, and the historical origins of star names like Algol, Aldebaran etc). Islam for a while had a Golden Age of thinking and challenging yourself (ijtihad) - leading to many advancements on the science inherited from the Byzantines (Greek-cultured 'Romans'). Unfortunately, this worried the Caliphate in Baghdad, who shut the questioning down - and lead to the unquestioning stagnation and tribalistic practices of the Arabic Islamic world (which you don't see so much in asian Islamic countries).
If your argument is worth anything you should be able to outline it; I'm not expecting detail, but just an answer to the simple question "why should I care". I don't believe China becoming more powerful is going to change my life because I simply see no way that it could, and I'm not going to go away and read two books just to satisfy some guy on slashdot.
I am trolling
Well there was the HP omnigo 700LX which apparently came out in 1996 and ran DOS (apparently it was even capable of running windows 3.0 if a big enough flash card was placed in the PCMCIA slot). It didn't have the phone built in but had a slot in the back in which a nokia 2110 was piggybacked. Does that count as a smartphone?
A big problem for all the early smartphones was that mobile data at the time was both circuit switched (so you had to dial-up to an ISP before doing anything) and very slow. Then GRPS came along but carriers priced it so high that hardly anyone could justify using it. It was many years before prices on mobile data came down to a level where it was reasonable for ordinary folks to use it.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
You're an entire island full of Bernie Madoffs. We should have fucking nuked you back in the 1970s and took all your fish.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
So, you're saying that building rockets (or for that matter, any other life-critical equipment) is on a par industrially with making an iSomething? Right.
Remind me to not fly in any planes that you've had a hand in designing or making ; I don't trust your engineering or your ethics.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Sorry, was that supposed to be a question? See the squiggly thing at the end?
Anyway, the answer is "no". Learn to read, you moron.
Your sig is accurate, and honestly I don't care what you believe or if you agree with me or the tons of other economists that feel similarly... you know better. We shall see soon enough, that will be the most definitive answer.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Wow. I already see how just great that will work.
Hint: No, it won't. But yet another War on Noun can be only good thing, right?
What modern Obelix would say today? Of course, "Those crazy Americans!".
Translation: Spacex are lying about the price