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The Great Firewall of Europe

Glyn Moody writes "The Presidency of the EU's Law Enforcement Working Party wants to create [PDF] 'a single secure European cyberspace with a certain "virtual Schengen border" and "virtual access points" whereby the Internet Service Providers (ISP) would block illicit contents on the basis of the EU "black-list."' Leaving aside the fact that this won't work for lots of reasons, how seriously can you take anyone talking about 'cyberspace' in 2011?"

25 of 191 comments (clear)

  1. Not nearly as bad... by MikeRT · · Score: 2

    how seriously can you take anyone talking about "cyberspace" in 2011?"

    Give them time. At least the term "information superhighway" has largely disappeared from public discourse. That term was one of those few political terms so cheesy and clueless that it gave me a Tourette's-like tic every time I heard it...

    1. Re:Not nearly as bad... by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 4, Funny

      how seriously can you take anyone talking about "cyberspace" in 2011?"

      Let them do it. From what I'm reading, they think the Internet is a place in Germany.

    2. Re:Not nearly as bad... by hjf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Information superhighway" was something coined by Bill Gates in one of his books. The ideas in that book were pretty advanced for the time. He also spoke about the "electronic wallet" (illustrated with Gates' own cheesy drawings), something that took form for us today in the shape of cell phones instead of wallets. He also made clear that the information superhighway was not the internet, but a faster network, that ALSO included internet services. And the ability of interactive "product placement" a la Augmented Reality: watch a movie, see the character's clock... nice, give me more info, computer! And it showed you what it was and how much it costed. The ideas in that book were good, but also scary in the sense that everything was about selling stuff.

      You know what's worse than cyberspace and superhighway? "Internet Portal". Something that journalists in my country love to talk about. Any website is a "Portal".

    3. Re:Not nearly as bad... by schnikies79 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We have moved to more ridiculous terms like "cloud" and "web 2.0".

      --
      Gone!
    4. Re:Not nearly as bad... by e70838 · · Score: 2

      If you are thinking about the book The Road Ahead, I have read it when it went out (in 96 in France). It was very deceiving. Everything was already old news. I was already using Mosaic in 93 and internet was already well understood in 96.
      There was really nothing original in this book. The ideas were very poor. The case of "electronic wallet" is a good example of bad predictions. Almost everybody was predicting the replacement of coins by electronic wallet. Bill Gates has repeated this idea. This prediction was completely wrong.

  2. When do you take them seriously? by thisissilly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You take them seriously when they are in a position of power. With a title like "Presidency of the EU's Law Enforcement Working Party", you better damn well take him seriously, or in the end you are not the one who is going to be laughing.

  3. EU turning into US? by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the kind of story I would expect coming from the US president's office, not the EU president's office. Hopefully this kind of censorship will die, like it died in Australia.

    Free, liberated adults should be able to view any site (or book or pamphlet) they desire - without restriction. No government official may overrule that basic natural right of expression.

    --
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    1. Re:EU turning into US? by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      >>>most people will applaud these moves as fair compromises, necessary, or even a gain for society -- after all, now all that "illicit content" is being blocked.

      I don't have a problem blocking illicit content, but it should be a CHOICE available to parents (or religious types), not something to be forced upon every one like the "no nudity on tv" rule. We should not be living in a one-size-fits-all society where everyone is forced to adopt the same restrictions.

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    2. Re:EU turning into US? by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      >>>If you consider kiddie porn, expression, you might need some help.

      You need to be more explicit what you mean by "porn". The US Supreme Court has ruled that:
      - child sex is illegal
      - child nudity is legal (think nudism and art)
      - depictions of adults as children having sex is free speech
      - cartoons/drawings of child sex is free speech

      Also I don't consider possession of porn to be any more "immoral" than possession of marijuana (a plant given to us by nature), or possession of murder photos. The person who did the killing is the criminal, not the person holding the photos. Same applies to porn.

      Of course if you think we should outlaw possession of murder photos/videos, then go ahead. I'll fight you every step of the way. Free speech/expression applies in ALL things, including subjects you find disgusting.

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    3. Re:EU turning into US? by Magada · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "people" are not going to do anything. Yes, we are well into the regulation phase that follows the colonization of any frontier.

      Think of it as the not-so-wild turn of the century West.

      Will the liberty decrease? Surely. Will crime decrease? Yes, most certainly, especially the violent kind (outright theft etc). Will there be a lot more commerce, more money being made and lots more poverty? Hell yea.

      It's a great time to be a black hat hacker. You thought the lawless nineties were good? Just you wait, 'cause the golden years of the Internet Mafia are still ahead, boys! There'll be prohibitions and trade barriers enough for everyone to get rich! Movies, music, software, even (or rather, especially) raw data storage and secure communications channels.

      'course, there'll be a few european comissioners and europol bigwigs to grease up but then... when was that not true?

      --
      Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
    4. Re:EU turning into US? by corbettw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Will the liberty decrease? Surely. Will crime decrease? Yes, most certainly, especially the violent kind (outright theft etc).

      Actually, crime will necessarily increase, as there will be more laws to be broken in the first place. Also, history has shown pretty consistently that the more government restricts people's choices in life, the more violent they become. It's a sad fact that no one seems to have learned yet.

      Cue the people who don't understand the crucial difference between anarchy and minarchy to come in and state that Somalia is a "libertarian paradise".

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    5. Re:EU turning into US? by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      18 U.S.C. 2252A has been nullified by the SCOTUS as being contrary to the superior Constitutional Law (1st amendment right of free speech/expression).

      Also additional Constitutional Law - amendment 10 (the power to outlaw obscene/immoral content is reserved to the Member States).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
  4. Different terminology by Exitar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Here in Europe we use the term "cyberspace" to describe what in the US you call "Series of tubes".

    1. Re:Different terminology by slackzilly · · Score: 2

      In norwegian, 'naut' means dumb or stupid.
      I guess 'internaut' in norwegian would be a good description of the non-technical people :)

      --
      - "If one man can create that much hate, you can only imagine how much love we as a togetherness can create."
  5. It's really only a matter of time by elrous0 · · Score: 2

    The only thing that surprises me is that we've went so long WITHOUT more government-controlled internet firewalls. I remember telling people back in 1995 that the U.S. government wouldn't tolerate a free internet for very long. I was wrong on the timeframe, but make no mistake, it's coming. The more repressive regimes of the world were the first, but even the "progressive" governments who supposedly champion a free internet will eventually have to own up to their hypocrisy and clamp down.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:It's really only a matter of time by torgis · · Score: 2

      The only thing that surprises me is that we've went so long WITHOUT more government-controlled internet firewalls. I remember telling people back in 1995 that the U.S. government wouldn't tolerate a free internet for very long. I was wrong on the timeframe, but make no mistake, it's coming.

      You're thinking in internet time, where 16 years is a very, very long time during which new technologies spring up, flourish, die, and are forgotten. However, 16 years in government time is hardly enough to put something really huge into motion, like an all-encompassing firewall. I'd say you were spot on - the great US firewall will eventually be a reality. They'll probably sell it as a way to protect us from our new favorite bogeyman, "The Terrorists."

      No doubt, any attempt at a country-wide firewall would be an utter failure and cost tens of billions of taxpayer dollars. But that won't stop them from trying...

  6. Consolidation of power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This was the plan all along with the union, and illustrates the danger when power is consolidated and centralized into the hands of the few.

    With many small instances of political power, the elite at the top of each pyramid are limited in what they can do, because their pyramids are limited in height (e.g. revenue, and therefore power). With one large instance of political power, the elite are sitting atop a much larger pyramid. The potential for destruction and injustice is much higher -- proportional to the height of their pyramid.

    Why must government be limited in what they can do? (And I cringe that I actually have to explain this.) Because history shows that government is the most dangerous, most destructive force that has ever existed. It shows that the people who desire power work for themselves, not the people they hold power over. It also shows that where destructive power exists, destructive power will be employed -- to the benefit of the empowered, not the powerless.

    The absolute worst thing that could happen in the history of humanity is a single "world" government coming to power -- the tallest, richest, most powerful pyramid that could ever exist. They would be capable of destruction and injustice on a level we can't even imagine.

    1. Re:Consolidation of power by moronoxyd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This was the plan all along with the union, and illustrates the danger when power is consolidated and centralized into the hands of the few.

      Well, I've seen quite a few good things that cam from the EU parlament, that couldn't have been done in the same timeframe by all the individual parlaments.

      With many small instances of political power, the elite at the top of each pyramid are limited in what they can do, because their pyramids are limited in height (e.g. revenue, and therefore power).

      Considering that certain companies have a revenue that surpasses man smaller and medium sized countries and that influence people in almost all countries in the world, I tend to disagree.

      On a national level, governments regularily give in the those companies, but on a supernational level (read: EU) they can and do stand up.

      The notion that the market will regulate itself is outdated. Companies consolidated to much power and money in the hands of too few people.
      In many fields the conumer can not exercise his supposed power anymore and NEEDS support by watchdogs and governments.

      The absolut worst thing that could happen is not giving the government enough power to keep multinational companies atleast somewhat in check.

    2. Re:Consolidation of power by lordholm · · Score: 2

      No, this illustrates what happens when a state like Hungary who is at the moment being run into the drain by an enormously authoritarian majority government (the last govt was really crappy as well, but more in terms of being corrupted), runs the Council. In fact, I would not be surprised if this was something that the Hungarian presidency have not synchronized with the rest of the trio.

      The problem with the ideas presented is that, 1. it has no support in the Council (just Hungary saying they will try to push this through), 2. it has no support in the Parliament, and 3. it has most likely no support in the Commission in the form that Hungary is trying to push this, and 4. recent verdicts from the EU court that has struck down court mandated blocking.

      This clearly demonstrates how dangerous it is to have the member states themselves being in charge of the Council, where a proper elected and directly accountable senate would have been to be preferred instead of a Council formed by the member states' governments. That the Union exist is something necessary and also the centralization of power to Brussels in some areas since the Chinese will otherwise carry out a divide and conquer policy to crush Europe when they have the ability to do so.

      --
      "Civis Europaeus sum!"
    3. Re:Consolidation of power by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The EU, for all its many faults, provides some big benefits that nobody sees.

      The biggest one in my book is that the major countries in Europe no longer try to blow each other to smithereens. This could have happened without the EU, but historically speaking economic crisis led fairly directly to warfare in Europe, as desperate countries tried to capture by force the resources they needed to survive while other countries tried to take advantage of the perceived weakness of the countries in crisis. That in my book means that the EU did a better job of preserving peace than the League of Nations or the UN.

      The next on the list would probably be that by using EU membership as a motivator, it's pushed the former Eastern Bloc countries that could very easily have turned into Putin-style regimes to become proper democracies. Read the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union to get an idea of the political importance of EU membership, and then consider what Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Belarus, etc could easily have become without it.

      It's definitely not the best possible way of governing, but it's doing much better than most everything else that's been tried. And its relative success is a big part of why some African governments have been pushing for similar sorts of organizations among their nations.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  7. Re:for other non euros like myself by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    That isn't the half of it: Handy Venn Diagram.

  8. Background by mseeger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This idea is floating around for some time now. Various reasons have been given for such internet blocks: child porn, illegal gambling, drugs, .... Interestingly, the real reason has rarely been named. If you look where the money for the campaigns come from, at the end you always find the content industry.

    I had a talk with some upper echelons of the biggest European Telcos a few months ago. They were complaining about the content industry spending money like water to get somehow internet blocks turned into law. Most Telcos didn't like the idea....

    The idea of the content industry is, that once internet blocks are legal, they can be used to shoot down sites like PirateBay.

    CU, Martin

  9. Re:Don't think it'll happen here by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hope your post is intended as a joke, because the GOP is one of the biggest supporters of an internet crackdown in the U.S. Who do you think has been screaming loudest about banning sites like WikiLeaks? And net neutrality is specifically designed to PROTECT a free internet. Without it, the handful of broadband ISP's in this country will be free to set up not only a national firewall and blacklist, but individual paywalls as well.

    Not that the Dems are much better, mind you. But if you really think the GOP is going to protect a free internet, you are a truly deluded individual. The only chance for maintaining a free internet would be the rise of a third party, and that's almost an impossibility in the U.S.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. Re:Don't think it'll happen here by torgis · · Score: 2

    Well guess what... parents lock the doors, set curfews, and make you eat your vegetables. I honestly don't think this kind of thing will fly in the US, not as long as there's a viable GOP.

    Wait...what? Are you saying that the GOP...the Republican party in the US...is the driving force behind keeping internet communications free and open here in the US?

    I don't know what your experience is, and I certainly don't mean to disparage senior citizens here, but I'd be hard pressed to think of a group that is more *out of touch* with technology than the GOP. Have you heard some of the comments regarding technology these guys make on CSPAN or on any of the talking head news shows? It's pretty clear that most of them are taught to parrot a few sound bytes involving cyberspaces and internet superfreeways from some techie staffer, but their understanding of the underlying technologies is abysmal.

    When I think of groups that are fighting for the rights of the people in regards to technology, I don't usually picture rich old white guys sitting around a mahogany table, drinking scotch and smoking cigars. Maybe that's just me though.

  11. Re:Freedom by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

    > Hasn't anyone learned anything from the great firewall of
    > China?

    Yes. Governments have learned that it works. Censorship need not be perfect to be effective.

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    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.