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Air Force Wants Commercial Spacecraft

coondoggie writes "The US Air Force is preparing to take a long look at how commercial space technology can help it better operate in the cosmos. The Air Force today said it will host a space test program meeting next week ahead of expected contract offerings, or Broad Agency Announcements looking to recruit commercial space providers."

20 of 70 comments (clear)

  1. Is this really any different? by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NASA and the military have always relied on commercial companies to design and build their spacecraft/aircraft. All this really does is add launch and maintenance to the mix.

    Of course, on the downside, this leaves them more dependent than ever on private contractors--which will only strengthen a military/industrial complex that is already draining U.S. coffers dry. But hey, a credit card is just as good as cash as long as they keep giving you credit, right?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Is this really any different? by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      There is nothing wrong with contracting something out--just as long as you don't become so dependent on the contractors that you're completely at their mercy.

      When I was a kid, MP's used to guard the gates at our military bases. Care to guess who does it now?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:Is this really any different? by Coren22 · · Score: 2

      I don't know what bases you have visited, but I still see MPs or solders, along with police guarding from outside the entrances.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    3. Re:Is this really any different? by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      All the ones I've visited in the last few years (Army anyway) have had rent-a-cops. Look closely at their uniforms and you'll see they're not actual military personnel. Many of the ones I saw weren't even carrying sidearms, much less the M-16's that they used to carry when I was a kid. The sad thing is that there is way more need for military security today than when I was a kid. It's kind of bizarre.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:Is this really any different? by AJWM · · Score: 2

      Professional soldiers cost a lot to train, and are overqualified for simple guard duty. It's fine if there's a draft or you've got plenty of soldiers sitting around otherwise idle, but there are a couple of wars on: all those expensively trained soldiers have more important duties than guarding a gate, which can be done by (less expensive, when all costs are factored in) rent-a-cops.

      (Nothing against rent-a-cops -- I used to be one.)

      --
      -- Alastair
  2. Terrorists... in space? by Skywolfblue · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is this really where tax dollars need to be spent? I'm all for space, but I'd rather that budget go to NASA to get some exploring done, not to hire a private contractor to put an F-16 in orbit to defend against... what exactly?

    1. Re:Terrorists... in space? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      Here's how it currently works: Air Force wants a satellite that does...whatever. So they pay money to Northrop/Boeing/whoever to build said satellite. Then the Air Force buys a Titan IV or whatever and Air Force personnel launch the rocket from an Air Force base (eg, Vandenberg).

      How it would work: Air Force wants a satellite that does...whatever. So they pay money to Northrop/Boeing/whoever to build said satellite. Then the Air Force buys "a launch" from SpaceX, Orbital Sciences Corporation, or whoever and they launch the rocket.

      The idea is that rather than the Air Force spending your tax dollars to maintain a launch site, buy rockets, etc., the Air Force just pays for launches as they need them. SpaceX worries about maintaining the launch site, building the rockets, etc.

    2. Re:Terrorists... in space? by camperdave · · Score: 2

      * It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  3. Re:What is this? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Funny

    No, it's time time to invade space because look at all that black stuff, it's probably oil.

  4. No problem by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 2

    These guys have it totally handled. Give them a contract, already!

  5. Re:Not The Air Farce by mr1911 · · Score: 2

    +1 Funny. Anonymous Coward making statements about honor and discipline.

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  6. An oxymoron by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A government agency wants a 'commercial' product that does not really exist? So what makes that product 'commercial'?

    If there is a commercial product and a government agency decides to buy from the manufacturer - well, that's one thing. Good for the manufacturer if he lands the tender. However if the product does not exist because the market hasn't found the reason/money/customers for it yet and the government then comes and says: here is a bunch of money, go build us a 'commercial' solution - well then, there will be a solution. But it will have NOTHING to do with market. The government money comes in, creates the demand, but except that government demand there is no private demand, so the solution will be totally inefficient, unusable under normal market conditions (without government subsidies).

    What I am saying is this: government wants to prop up yet another bunch of companies and call it 'commercial', well, don't be fooled. Sure, they'll subsidize something there with fake money, like they always do, but it won't help the economy in any way, as the demand is artificial, as the money is not coming out of savings but instead creates more inflation, because it's printed and as the economy goes into worse trouble, because debts are increased and not repaid.

    Don't call it 'commercial' if government pays for all the demand, it ain't no such thing.

    1. Re:An oxymoron by david+duncan+scott · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What if the government is paying for part of the demand? It's not hard to imagine situations in which some demand exists, but not quite enough to justify any particular company making an existential wager on it. An additional demand from a government customer might tip the balance.

      How much purely commercial demand was there for small, portable computers before the Air Force wanted them on-board ICBM s? We went from "the world needs maybe six mainframes" to our current state pretty quickly, once some of the R & D was picked up by the Feds.

      There aren't very many things for which there is absolutely no demand, but there are many things for which the price is as yet too high.

      Besides, I like my interstate highways, even if they were just an Eisenhower-era military-industrial conspiracy. They have turned out toi be useful for a good many things besides rapid mobilization of troops.

      --

      This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander

    2. Re:An oxymoron by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your argument is this: people like things for free, so let's get government to do those things.

      When I say 'demand', I do mean money. Demand is cash. If government supplies the cash, then it supplies the demand, surely. It does not matter if it subsidizes this for 5 people or for 500 people who would want this but can't pay for it themselves. It's not market that created that demand, there was not enough demand from enough people to allocate enough resources for the project, this means this is mis-allocation of resources for the majority of the market - pure and simple.

      As to interstate highways - here is a clue by 4. Those are destructive to the market. They were built by taxing airlines and by destroying profitable private rail, which was much more efficient at moving huge loads across huge distances. The interstate highways subsidized the auto-manufacturers as well as the unsustainable life style (and it is unsustainable without subsidies, and subsidies will end.)

      The highway system caused huge suburban sprawl, huge inefficiencies in transportation, created huge amounts of pollution, crazy amount of deaths due to increased reliance on cars (for health reasons as well as due to traffic accidents), caused demise of any usable private offering in viable (and I mean profitable when I say viable, because anything that is viable must be profitable) mass transit solutions.

      All this while also providing government with more new ways to control your behavior and life, because the interstate highways are the pressure points that the federal gov't applies to localities when it wants something from them.

      Anyway, enjoy your subsidized life style while it lasts.

    3. Re:An oxymoron by david+duncan+scott · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Profitable private rail? The private rail that was built on massive amounts of federal land, and supported through government strike-breaking? That private rail?

      And no, my argument is not that "people like things for free, so let's get government to do those things." My argument is that, on certain occasions, government can prime a pump. Do you honestly think that there is no demand for air travel? There wasn't nearly enough back in the twenties, so the Post Office came up with "airmail." Who really cared if a letter got there a day sooner, especially since a good many ended up strewn across fields amidst smoking wreckage--the point was to provide some of that demand until the airlines could get a market going. I know it's hard to picture Charles Lindbergh and Eddie Rickenbacker sucking up to the socialist trough, but without airmail contracts, speed and distance prizes, and other such interventionist folderol the US air transport industry might well have stopped with the Curtis Jenny (you know, that plane that the Feds pretty much gave to anybody who asked after World War I

      --

      This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander

    4. Re:An oxymoron by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Profitable private rail? The private rail that was built on massive amounts of federal land, and supported through government strike-breaking? That private rail?

      - yes, that private profitable rail, and I absolutely agree with you, the government acted criminally by supporting anybody, including the rail tycoons. But by the time we are talking about the rail was private and profitable and it was efficient, roads were not.

      Do you honestly think that there is no demand for air travel?

      - first, the successful airplanes were created privately. Those, who had government funding (I am thinking about the Aerodrome fiasco) failed. Those who got the planes to fly successfully, did it on their own.

      Any government money was not needed to have commercial air travel. Commercial air travel was going to happen. The same may be true of space, but it's not the time yet.

      And yes, your argument is that people like things for free. Do you know why? Because there is demand, which is willingness to put the money where the mouth is, which really means WORK, because money is expression of work. Money that is printed by government is not about work, it's about taxing the existing money supply by inflating it.

      Then there is other type of 'demand', which is really just a wish. Do I wish I had Enterprise like space ship at my disposal? Sure. Do I wish somebody gave me one for free? Sure.

      Do I want to spend my own time and money building one? No. The reason is that I don't actually have a purpose for it, rather than to amuse myself. I also do not expect to live 10000000 years that it would take me to build one (probably). By spending my time and money that way I would deny myself any other wants and desires I may have for things other than the Enterprise space ship. I would put myself through huge amounts of hardship, I would have to deny myself all sorts of nicer things in life. So if I am unwilling to do this to myself, what right do I have to ask others to do this for me?

      No, I do not subscribe to Keynesian ideas at all - the ideas that government must generate demand by printing money - I see these as destructive to the economy, these are the ideas that destroyed this economy anyway. Government can only print and tax, it cannot generate actual real demand, as in, it cannot make people want to spend their own work for something if the people don't get a real benefit from it.

      You are saying that government should do this, because you think it is a nice idea. But if there is no market for it it means people are not in mass going to spend their own work to achieve your 'nice' idea. You want government to force the people to spend any amount of their work (that's what money is after all) on this, isn't it selfish of you? Just because you think something maybe a great idea does not make it so.

      You want something? Sell it to others but not through force of government, but as a viable business opportunity and a good product that's worth the investment.

      Government does not need to be there for any work. Government is not there for work in the first place - it's a spending item for minimum military protection and justice system. I would be a huge success if government could just do those two things and not screw up the economy and society in the process.

      You know, all those SS checks people expect to keep receiving? They'll be receiving them but the money is buying less and less, that's because government is constantly spending and borrowing and printing.

      Realize that in 50s/60s the minimum legal wage was around 1.50USD/hour, which was 1.5 ounces of silver. Today that would be 60USD/hour (minimum wage) and people didn't pay taxes on that wage, so that's even more. The government has printed so much money, that silver is over 40bucks/ounce today. That's why the prices are so high and are going much higher for everything and you want government to keep printing and spending?

      Well, prepare to be able to buy abs

    5. Re:An oxymoron by david+duncan+scott · · Score: 2

      You figure silver is the index of all things? Why, pray tell, except for some sort of magical thinking? It was worth more in 1980 then it is now--are we on the right track?

      Personally I go for days at a time without touching any silver at all. On the other hand, the medications that are currently keeping me alive didn't exist, at any weight of silver, gold, or unobtanium, in the fifties and sixties.I had a smallpox shot back in those halcyon days of economic splendor, a shot that my children didn't need.

      If I need to examine the state of a nation, the price of some particular mineral enshrined solely by tradition wouldn't be the first place I'd look, any more than I'd glom onto the relative worth of cowrie shells or beanie babies. Do you really believe that people command 1/26 of the spending power their parents did, just because the price of silver has changed by that much? Do you claim that Americans are 26 times hungrier, colder, and sicker than they were in 1950, or are the Hunt brothers a lot wealthier for their manipulations of the price of a sometimes-useful metal (although, with film gone from cameras, I suspect you'll be able to watch the dollar grow stronger, or at least silver get cheaper.)

      --

      This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander

    6. Re:An oxymoron by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You figure silver is the index of all things?

      - silver, gold, cotton, wheat, pork bellies, concentrated orange juice, copper, land for agriculture, oil, gas, uranium, etc. - those things are real.

      Dollars are not real.

      Yes, I consider silver to be real money, I consider gold to be real money, etc. I also do not consider dollars to be real money (or ANY fiat currency for that matter, though relative to each other some do better and some do worse, but they are all fiat and all are printed at the whim of a politician, none of them are money.)

      Silver, gold, etc. - they are stores of value, they can be easily used as units of account and means of trade. They are valuable because of their various properties. Gold is money because it is rare enough, it can't be printed, it does not change over time, it can be reclaimed from any industrial use, it can be easily tested to be real or not, it is accepted as money and has been accepted as money (means of trade) for thousands of years nearly universally.

      Gold does not need to be made 'legal tender', it is money on its own, without any government stating it to be so. Of-course people can use all sorts of things for barter, it doesn't have to be gold. But as long as government cannot print the stuff that you use as money, it's already better than fiat paper.

      It was worth more in 1980 then it is now--are we on the right track?

      - relative to what?

      Do you realize that today oil is the CHEAPEST it has EVER been?

      If you have a silver dime minted prior to 1965 that is, then oil is the cheapest. In US dollars the silver coin is not the most expensive as you are pointing out, but in oil it is the most expensive and oil is the cheapest. You can buy a gallon of gas for a silver dime minted prior to 1965. With US dollars you have to spend how much? 4 dollars, soon to be 5?

      On the other hand, the medications that are currently keeping me alive didn't exist, at any weight of silver, gold, or unobtanium, in the fifties and sixties.I had a smallpox shot back in those halcyon days of economic splendor, a shot that my children didn't need.

      - good for you. The reason for the increased innovation is capitalism and industrialization and not fiat money though. It is reliance on under-utilization, savings and real money that made it possible in the 19th century to build the economy, that allowed such concentration of wealth that pushed innovation forward. It was not fiat money that caused your medication to appear, it's the real capitalism - based on savings and re-investment. And real capitalism that is based on savings exists despite the fiat money, not because of it.

      Capitalism is based on savings and investment and fiat punishes anybody who is trying to save (in fiat currency). The only way to save is to have real assets that appreciate in currency that is being debased by the government. The only real investment comes out of the savings (capital) and the only way to save is not to be in fiat, which is printed every day by politicians, who want to buy your vote for giving you 'free stuff'.

      Do you really believe that people command 1/26 of the spending power their parents did, just because the price of silver has changed by that much?

      - yes.

      Yes.

      How else do you think it was possible for a man to support a family - a house wife and a bunch of kids, to own a house and maybe a boat and maybe another property and a couple of cars and be debt free before 1971? It was because the purchasing power was that much bigger. Was it precisely 26 times greater than? Nothing is exactly precisely 100%, but today people own mortgages, not houses, they don't have a bunch of kids and the wife is working too (and maybe there is a second job, who knows) and they still can't afford all that stuff they want and they don't see their kids enough to be able to raise them properly.

      Do you

  7. That's misleading... by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anonymous Cowards is almost correct. That's from the PROPOSED budget for 2012. What Anonymous coward forgot was that Social Security and Medicare is only 44% of the next proposed budget. The final 35% is discretionary, down from around 38% in 2008.

    The 44% is nearly non-negotiable mandated spending. You can't really cut mandated spending except to streamline the programs. You can't just cut parts out you don't like. Not in the budgetary process, at least (or they're not supposed to, anyways).

    The defense budget is entirely different. It is not mandatory, but it is not discretionary either. You CAN cut parts out you don't like with the wave of a budgetary wand... you just piss representatives off who lose military and defense contractor jobs in their districts. On the whole, military spending has no real "net gain". There is no financial return on $1 million Tomahawk missiles, whether fired or sitting in storage. It's therefore harder to justify investments in technology.

    This doesn't mean such investments aren't needed. What liberals rail at is that we spend more than all of NATO combined on our military, and more than any single country. Our military spending is so large that it makes even China look minuscule. Conservatives point out that the reason our allies don't spend as much is that they rely on us for their security for the most part. Nobody is invading France, Britain, or Germany without having to deal with us.

    However, as history tells us, spending too much on your military and not enough on your economy will lead to your downfall. While Sparta eventually defeated Athens, it was unable to take on the economic burden left by the spoils of war which lead to its downfall.

    We could be the next Spartans, and China the next Athens. Sure, we can whip their ass, but in 30 years if we're paying $5 a gallon because we didn't go all electirc, and China did... who cares?

    Nukes were supposed to level the field. It's not like we're going to have a ground war with any other nuclear power. We'll all glow in the dark long before then.

    --
    I8-D
  8. Sounds familiar by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

    I'll be curious to know if the officer in charge of issuing this report has any contacts with private industry or ends up in a 7-figure job at Boeing or Lockheed.

    --
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