US Citizen Visiting Thailand Arrested For Blog Posting

societyofrobots writes "A US citizen, upon visiting Thailand for medical treatment, was arrested for lese majeste (insulting the king) and computer crimes ('entering false information into a computer system'). He is charged for posting a link on his blog to a banned book, The King Never Smiles, and for translating excerpts of it. He made the posting four years ago in 2007, while in the US. Trials for lese majeste are traditionally held in secret, for reasons of 'national security'. AFP has more information."

Comments

"lese majeste"

[koreaman]

Latin for "law that let's us put whoever the fuck we want in jail"

Re:"lese majeste"

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the king himself has been censored under these rules. He gave his blessing to a biography that was later banned for insulting the king.

He's also against these rules and has sworn to pardon anyone tried under these rules, so we can at least hope the US guy gets off scot-free.

Re:"lese majeste"

[sortius_nod]

The problem with Thailand is that the king himself has spoken out about the use of les majeste against the population, but the political parties ignore him. The king claimed (before he became as ill as he is now) that anyone can comment on the family, just not be abusive about it.

There's a bigger problem brewing though. When the king dies, which won't be far off judging by his health, the crown prince will take over. This guy is an idiot, thinks he's some sort of playboy. He is the total opposite of what a Thai royal should be, so there will be a lot of anger against the crown. The only thing that keeps Thailand together at this stage is the current king, so it will be interesting where this goes.

As for this American guy, well, he shouldn't have gone to Thailand if he's going to be linking banned books and posting excerpts. There's enough information on how Thailand's authorities view both the book and it's claims. Feeling sorry for him is like feeling sorry for the drug smugglers in a Bali prison, they knew the laws of the country, and if not, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

Re:"lese majeste"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

While I agree about avoiding travel to shithole jurisdictions whose laws I'm on the wrong side of, I have to wonder whether this guy has some backstory that made him more interesting to the locals.

Unless the Thai authorities are way ahead of the game, they must have about a zillion other cases that they could be taking an interest in(or local troublemakers they feel like beating down, it isn't stability city over there), rather than some random Yank who said something mean four years ago, and (seeing as he went there for treatment) will either be leaving when recovered or going out the back door, depending on what he is being treated for. He seems like a low-priority case.

Is this just a matter of some google-using authoritarian jackoff justifying his job by bring cases, no matter how cold and irrelevant, or is the american in question of interest for some other reason(suspected enthusiasm for underage ladyboys, dubiously ethical business dealings, meddling in local revolutionary politics, or something) and this is just the easiest way to bring him in?

Re:"lese majeste"

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Thailand is that the king himself has spoken out about the use of les majeste against the population, but the political parties ignore him. The king claimed (before he became as ill as he is now) that anyone can comment on the family, just not be abusive about it.

Don't be so fucking naive.

The political parties doesn't ignore him. He's not the Queen of England and he has a traditional influence in Thai politics and has interfered in public life since he's come to power. The lese majeste laws are useful to him, so he keeps it around. He just pardons expats or minor abuses so he can pose as a nice guy. When it's useful, you're fucking going to be judged in secret and then will be DEAD.

King Bhumibol Adulyadej is an ASSHOLE. Let's put the truth out there!

Bhumibol ascended the throne following the death by gun-shot wound of his brother, King Ananda Mahidol, on 9 June 1946 in mysterious circumstances, prompting suggestions that Bhumibol had been involved in or responsible for his death.

That evening, Sarit Dhanarajata seized power, and two hours later Bhumibol imposed martial law throughout the Kingdom.[33] Bhumibol issued a Royal Command appointing Sarit as "Military Defender of the Capital" without anyone countersigning this Royal Command.

Bhumibol retains enormous powers, partly because of his immense popularity and partly because his powers - although clearly defined in the Thai constitution - are often subject to conflicting interpretations. This was highlighted by the controversy surrounding the appointment of Jaruvan Maintaka as Auditor-General. Jaruvavn had been appointed by The State Audit Commission. However, the Constitutional Court ruled in July 2004 that her appointment was unconstitutional. Jaruvan refused to vacate her office without an explicit order from Bhumibol, on the grounds that she had previously been royally approved. When the Senate elected a replacement for Jaruvan, Bhumibol refused to approve him.[75] The Senate declined to vote to override Bhumibol's veto.[76] Finally in February 2006 the Audit Commission reinstated Jaruvan when it became clear from a memo from the Office of the King's Principal Private Secretary that King Bhumibol supported her appointment.

He's the effective ruler of Thailand, he plays around with the military coups to keep his power (Thailand has a military coup every other day) and he likes the fucking lese majeste laws.

Stop with this the King is a nice guy propaganda bullshit. The Thai might like to have a dictator in power and that's their problem but he's not a powerless king that loves his people. He's a politician like every other.

Re:"lese majeste"

[MechaStreisand]

As for this American guy, well, he shouldn't have gone to Thailand if he's going to be linking banned books and posting excerpts. There's enough information on how Thailand's authorities view both the book and it's claims. Feeling sorry for him is like feeling sorry for the drug smugglers in a Bali prison, they knew the laws of the country, and if not, ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law.

No. He did that years ago, in the US, and he's a US citizen. Translating part of a book shouldn't ban you from a country forever. Equating what he did with smuggling drugs is absurd. You should kill yourself to make the world a better place.

Re:"lese majeste"

[Anonymous Coward]

"He did that years ago, in the US, and he's a US citizen. Translating part of a book shouldn't ban you from a country forever."

Yeah, and I'm sure US will be really happy to let you in if they'd known you're been translating and promoting "terrorist" and anti-US books before.

He is lucky it was the authorities who catched him. If he was going around talking bullshit about the king there would had been a really good change the locals would have seriously kicked his ass or even beat him up so much that he dies.

And don't start talking about how speech is free in the US (except when it's not), because different cultures value different things. US has some serious problem with trying to make everyone think and do what they say. Would you just leave rest of the world fucking alone?

And frankly, I love living in Thailand. But I'm not a little kid who has to do something just because he is told he is not allowed to.

Re:"lese majeste"

[uofitorn]

The parent posted something that you disagree with and you advocate for his death? That sounds absurd to me too.

Translating a book shouldn't ban you from a country forever. Posting a comment on slashdot shouldn't sentence you to death.

Re:"lese majeste"

[Seumas]

America has one of these. It let's the president claim _anyone_ including a citizen is an enemy combatant and whisk them away to gitmo without representation or a trial or any other rights granted to a citizen.

Re:"lese majeste"

[Seumas]

We'd all be a lot better off if we take an axe to that first layer.

Re:"lese majeste"

[Chuck Chunder]

He did that years ago, in the US, and he's a US citizen.

That argument might hold more weight if the US behaved as if it's laws stopped at it's borders.

Re:"lese majeste"

[Anonymous Coward]

He is a born Thai and Thai national who moved to US when he was 35. I'm quite sure he is familiar with Thai laws and practices. But this being slashdot of course this small "insignificant" detail isn't mentioned in the summary. Don't want to ruin some good baseless bashing or anything, after all.

Re:"lese majeste"

[S.O.B.]

The accused was born and grew up in Thailand so yeah, he did know what he was doing. And he didn't just link to a book, he also translated an article that violated the law.

Agree with the law or not but it's their law and once you are in their country they can enforce it any way they want. He should have known better than to go back. Just like Julian Assange knows better than to go to the U.S.

Re:"lese majeste"

[bsharp8256]

My advice for parent poster:

Don't go to Thailand.

Re:"lese majeste"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Many Americans do, indeed, believe that there should be some restraint on flag burning. They are goose-stepping pricks. Luckily, the chaps who wrote the constitution we smarter than they are, and those ugly, atavistic, elements of our culture Just Don't Get What They Want. Same for the "I feel strongly about deity X, so all criticism of deity X must be forbidden" crowd.

To be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no problem applying my standards(some of which are, albeit imperfectly, reasonably close to qualifying as "American") to another culture. If the Thais wish to be self restrained, I wish them all the best. If they wish to restrain the speech of those who they don't think are self restrained enough, fuck them and the horse they rode in on.

The world over, I respect the right of people to respect whatever they fancy(though I agree with some and mock others for doing so, depending on what they chose). However, I nowhere respect the right of anybody to compel others to display 'respect' for their chosen object, whether it be the flag, the nation, the monarch, the god, the literary masterpiece. If this makes me an insensitive, cultural-imperialist prick, so be it. At least I'm an equal-opportunity bigot.

Re:"lese majeste"

[cavreader]

Well a lot of people the world have their respect towards their governments enforced at the end of the gun.

Re:"lese majeste"

[cavreader]

Your are a moron. Name one instance where freedom of speech has been suppressed in the US. And personally I wish the US would disengage from the cluster fuck otherwise known as the Global Community for everything excepting trade and just sit back and see what happens. Of course with the US out of the picture there are a lot of countries who will need to find someone else to blame for their problems.

Re:"lese majeste"

[shutdown -p now]

The 4th Amendment, for example.

Re:"lese majeste"

[shutdown -p now]

He is lucky it was the authorities who catched him. If he was going around talking bullshit about the king there would had been a really good change the locals would have seriously kicked his ass or even beat him up so much that he dies.

You're still missing the point. He didn't say or publish anything offensive about Thai king while in Thailand. His "crime" was committed at a different time, long ago, and entirely outside the borders of Thailand, nor did it involve citizens of Thailand. Any claims of jurisdiction in such a case are pure bullshit. For that matter, how was he supposed to know back then that something he did was against the law somewhere else in the world? Are you sure that you've never committed a crime in some country you've never been at in your life?

That's absurd. Respecting the laws of some country when and while you're visiting it is perfectly fine, but that's not what happened here at all, and no bullshit about "different cultures" is going to hide this.

Say what; how about we arrest all married males from Iran travelling through Western countries on suspicion of child molestation (what with age of consent there being 9 years for girls); and if their wives - even if not travelling with them - are younger than whatever is the age of consent in the country of detention, we put them on trial as pedophiles? Because that would be roughly as meaningful.

Re:"lese majeste"

[lorenlal]

I don't know.. The whole warrant-less spying of American citizens?

Re:"lese majeste"

[ozmanjusri]

Can you backup this statement with any facts showing where US citizens have lost their freedoms

"The United States of America has an incarceration rate of 743 per 100,000 of national population (as of 2009), the highest in the world.[2] In comparison, Russia has the second highest 577 per 100,000"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

Most of that incarceration rate has resulted from citizens choosing to use a commonly available and relatively harmless herb for their own enjoyment.

Re:"lese majeste"

[shutdown -p now]

"The Supreme Court has determined that brief investigative encontuers do not constitute a serach or seizure."

Just because the SCOTUS claims that some law is not unconstitutional does not mean that it actually isn't.

Even historically, SCOTUS overruled its own cases decided in the past (e.g. Plessy v. Ferguson) - and a law cannot be constitutional yesterday and then unconstitutional today, it's either that or the other - so when they rule differently from the past, they acknowledge that old understanding was a mistake.

Furthermore, so far as I know, SCOTUS didn't rule on the legality of these particular checkpoints - it's just a DHS goon spinning an unrelated decision to back his case. It is arguable that what they are doing are not "brief investigative encounters" (the moment the word "detain" is used, it ceases to be brief).

The courts, however, are not on the ACLU's side -- and have regularly ruled that the Fourth Amendment's protections don't extend to the border area, airport screening or even to laptops at the border.

Note that this is not about the border itself. The Feds have extended a 100-mile area from the border inland, and now claims that this is the border, and all powers they were previously granted by the courts at the border (using a sane definition of one) still apply!

Re:"lese majeste"

[Hal_Porter]

completely ignoring the fact that they've got pretty much the same system in England.

Well except for the fact that a quick look at a UK tabloid shows you that the UK does not enforce lese majeste laws.

In fact Wikipedia reckons that the remnants of a Lese Majeste was abolished in 2010 but not actually enforced since 1715.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lese_majeste#United_Kingdom

In Scotland, section 51 of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 abolished the common law criminal offences of sedition and 'leasing-making'. The latter offence, also known as 'lease making' was considered an offence of lese majeste or making remarks critical of the Monarch of the United Kingdom. It had not been prosecuted since 1715

But you're right that the Thai king is not the problem here - strict enforcement of lese majeste laws are being pushed by dodgy politicians for their own purposes.

Re:"lese majeste"

[shutdown -p now]

It's not the article that claims 100 mile zone, it's the DHS - if you have an issue with the number, take it up with them. One particular case mentioned in the article happened within that zone and closer than 100 miles. Others have happened further away - there is one case specifically documented at 40 miles. JFGI.

In any case, most of San Diego is still not "the border" under any sane definiton. The border is that fenced area which says "border" on it, or checkpoints in said area, or airports and other points of arrival of vessels from other countries. One could claim a reasonable area around so as to pursue violators, but "reasonable" in this case is 1-2 miles at most - not 10, and definitely not 100; and even then, only from the physical border, not places such as airports.

Re:"lese majeste"

[shutdown -p now]

he SCOTUS doesn't "claim", it decides. If it says it says something is constitutional, it is. Period.

The SCOTUS can say that black is white and pi is exactly 3, but it doesn't make it so. Constitution is written in English, and most of its provisions are fairly straightforward. An interpretation of them which directly contravenes the semantical meaning and/or the laws of logic is not legitimate regardless of who delivers it. E.g., even if Jesus himself descends from heavens tomorrow, and says that the 1st does not protect your freedom of political speech, that wouldn't make it true.

Any attempts to change that are themselves unconstitutional. There's nothing in the constitution that says that SCOTUS is the sole interpreter of its meaning - judicial review was self-imposed by the court. If a particular judicial review contravenes the constitution, that particular case of it is itself unconstitutional; there's just no legal enforcement mechanism to strike it down as such.

Well, actually they designate it as a border zone, and it does make sense even if the territory is rather expansive. I've seen quite a few countries that have the concept of a border zone with special enforcement in law. If I recall correctly, I've seen something like 5-50Km. Although 100 miles might seem excessive, it puts most major port cities (where much of the illegal border related activity occurs) in the US within a border zone, which might be reasonable for some purposes.

What's reasonable about defining what is, for all intents and purposes, an internal document check zone, in such a way that it covers the most populated regions of the country?

The reason why legal tradition has long been that certain rights do not apply at the border is because the border, historically, was always a special zone very limited in extent. You could live all your life in US without ever crossing it, and your rights were fully intact. Under the new definition, you can be born and live all your life in what has historically been the heart of US, never setting foot in another country and not even trying to be so - and still bullied by CBP according to "border exception" waiving some of your fundamental citizen rights away.

Re:"lese majeste"

[sortius_nod]

You'd be deluded if you thought otherwise.

As someone who has quite intimate knowledge of SE Asia (growing up there and my father still lives in Thailand), I can assure you that the king is a very important person. Not for power, but for the rubber stamp. It's how all the coups have happened. The king gives tacit support, the military takes over. Otherwise they are too scared of the people.

The king is an important part of people's lives, he is a symbol of tradition, history, and ancestors. To go against the king is to warrant punishment (death) in some eyes. Others it's more respectful. Unfortunately the ambitious gain control and make it their duty to become protector of the king. It's part of the Thai prestige.

Thailand is a country that constantly sits on the brink of civil war. The three main regions (Muslim south, rural north, and Bangkok) have very different ideas of what it means to be Thai. Then you have people like Thaksin stirring it up with military clamp downs, summary executions, and vote buying in the rural areas, well, the powder keg is alight, it's just a matter of time before it goes off.

Having been trapped in Thailand during the airport closures some time ago, I can assure you, the people will take it further in Thailand than other "democratic" states.

I have this important message

[Anonymous Coward]

The king of Thailand is a dirty bastard who fucked a chicken. On multiple occasions. In the ass.

Re:I have this important message

[Adambomb]

The King of Thailand absolutely loves découpage

Re:I have this important message

[metrix007]

Or, not everybody who posts here bothers to have an account. The hating on AC thing is retarded.

Re:I have this important message

[c0lo]

Thailand... were the prince throws a birthday party for his poodle and the princess attends the party topless. Truth to be told... the poodle is one of two Thai's Air Chief Marshals.

._.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why you research the laws of the place you are visiting before you make the actual visit.

Re:._.

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely. That's why I avoid the U.S.

Re:dumb fuck

[zonky]

Summary is not clear, but he is a Thai Citizen as well as US.

Re:dumb fuck

[OutLawSuit]

Except it looks like he made the post 4 years ago while in the United States. Just making a critical statement about a country then getting arrested for it years down the road while visiting isn't a very good precedent. I'm sure since this guy is a US citizen, the State Department will work something out though.

Re:jurisdiction?

[Splab]

"places like that"?

Like the US? India? UK? All countries currently trying to extract (or recently did) people for committing a crime that didn't break any local laws.

Thai Citizenship

[l0ungeb0y]

It seems this guy was a Thai immigrant who earned US Citizenship.
However, he might still hold Thai Citizenship, and in that event, the guy will have no US Protections

Re:Thai Citizenship

[Riktov]

Not so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Nationality_Rule

Re:AFP

[lxs]

Yes. The rest of us know it stands for Agence France Presse.

Re:Obey local laws

[MysteriousPreacher]

He obeyed local laws. What he failed to do was to obey the local laws of a country he wasn't in at the time.

Enemy Combatant/Lone Wolf

[future assassin]

If the US can do it so can everyone else.

Re:Note to self:

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The cool thing about Thailand is that they've been through 17 constitutions(and more governments) since 1932, and basically all of them have afforded at least theoretical deference to the king. Your heuristic might have hit a corner case here.

Re:dumb fuck

[HungryHobo]

You can be sure if Julian Assange visited the US now he'd be arrested and charged with breaking US laws(or at least pissing off powerful members of the US government which is basically the same thing) despite being in a different country at the time and not being a US citizen.

because ultimately "patriots" tend to believe that since their own country is the best it's laws are the best and since it's laws are the best they should apply to everyone, everywhere, always and it's only a matter of if you can get hold of people to punish them.

If you publish information no matter how legal it is to publish from where you live or where you're posting from- keep the hell away from any fascist governments which you may have offended for the rest of your life.

It may be the the Chinese government, it may be the government of Thailand or it may even be the US government but if you're smart just stay the hell away.

Oh Yeah, USA, Bastion of freedom of speech

[ross.w]

Julian Assange will be watching this case with interest, and would be amused at all the "how dare they, he's a citizen of a free country" posts.

Re:Similar laws in the US

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

While I'm not a huge fan of the fact that threatening the president is more serious than threatening other people, there is kind of a large difference between "threatening" and "insulting".

You can insult the president all you like(in practice, even in situations where private citizens or celebrities might reach for the libel suit, presidents don't seem to bother), you just can't threaten to kill, injure, or kidnap him. Even then, because of the first amendment concerns, the secret service typically ignores many of the less dangerous looking cases.

Re:dumb fuck

[QuoteMstr]

Is anyone else absolutely sick of sensationalized headlines?

Re:Note to self:

[gman003]

Sure there are! Like... no.... maybe not them... no...definitely not...well...

Aha! Somalia! Absolutely no censorship, if only because there's no real government to enforce it. And they apparently have pretty good comms, compared to most of that continent. I'll just pack some self-defense gear (is it possible to buy a Mk 19 on the civilian market?), and telecommute to work. Hell, the way outsourcing is going...

Re:This Just In: Not All Countries Have Are Free

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'm sure that I'm just tilting at windmills here; but I don't think that the US medical situation is news to anybody: As with schools, if you have deep pockets you can get among the best, hence the steady stream of foreign dignitaries and suits(some amusingly embarrassing in retrospect) showing up for the purpose. If you don't, though, quality can often drop off much faster than cost(with a little bump up down at the very bottom, where the ER people are legally obligated to scrape your ass off the street even if they can't collect). In a number of other countries, the price/quality drop off is far less steep, and thus much more sensible(and, if this guy was thai, he may also have had handy things like helpful family...)

Re:Correlation?

[arth1]

Later, he traveled to Thailand for a medial procedure (wtf can he get done in Thailand that he can't get done in the US, maybe a brain transplant?).

Medical treatments are quite often more advanced outside the US. The reason is that here in the US, the medical system is driven by insurance companies, who will not allow new methods to be used until they have been proven reliable to a degree that mitigates any monetary risk for malpractice lawsuits. In other words, they wait and see how it goes in the rest of the world.

Take Lasik surgery as an example. The Soviet Union was doing laser vision correction on a regular basis in the 1980s, and most of the western world a few years later. In the US, it came MUCH later.

Or ciclosporin for use in treating autoimmune diseases. It arrived in the US over a decade after the rest of the world.

Or, to be personal, hip implants. I have a type of hip implant that US doctors and insurance companies don't use, because (a) it costs far more, and (b) the requirement for precision is much higher, and thus the risk of having to do corrective surgery is higher too. Never mind that my hips last for 50+ years, and are flexible enough that I can do yoga and run, while US hips last for 10-15 and a person can't even run. That's not a consideration. Doctors and insurance companies avoiding law suits is.

About the only place where the US health care system comes first is costs. No where else do you get so little for so much.

Re:Note to self:

[AmberBlackCat]

They're not so bad. All they did was arrest a "lone wolf" terrorist under the authority of Thailand's patriot act. Thailand is safe now.

Re:jurisdiction?

[the linux geek]

From another poster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Sklyarov

Re:Obey local laws

[zill]

Since he chose to remain a citizen of Thailand, all the laws of Thailand still applies to him, regardless of where he resides. That's the burden of dual citizenship. If you chose to swear allegiance to two countries, then you must abide by the laws of both.

So it's like a steady thing?

[Lead Butthead]

The king of Thailand is a dirty bastard who fucked a chicken. On multiple occasions. In the ass.

So his majesty is like... going steady with this... chicken? I confess I have a hard time believing the old man would do this. Now if we're talking about the crown prince...

Where is the ladyboy commenter?

[gmhowell]

How can we have a story on Thailand and the guy who puts the term 'ladyboy' in every comment hasn't posted?

Re:dumb fuck

[shermo]

since their own country is the best it's laws are the best and since it's laws are the best they should apply to everyone, everywhere, always and it's only a matter of if you can get hold of people to punish them

However, I find that these sorts of people pick and choose which of their laws actually 'count' when it comes to themselves.

Priorities

[matunos]

It's good to know that the Thai authorities have their priorities straight. We wouldn't want them stopping any child prostitution or sex tourism.

In UK you can go to Jail for insultn a Footballer

[AftanGustur]

Yes, that is not a joke..

Blog about a certain UK Footballer had an affair with a certain Model and you can go to Jail..

Still Think you live in a "Free Country" ?

Dmitry Sklyarov

[Eunuchswear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Sklyarov