Slashdot Mirror


Have We Reached Maximum Sustainable Population Size?

Hugh Pickens writes "Pulitzer prize winning writer Thomas Friedman writes that in few years we may be looking back at the first decade of the 21st century — when food prices spiked, energy prices soared, world population surged, tornados plowed through cities, floods and droughts set records, populations were displaced and governments were threatened by the confluence of it all — and ask ourselves: What were we thinking? 'We're currently caught in two loops,' writes Friedman. 'One is that more population growth and more global warming together are pushing up food prices; rising food prices cause political instability in the Middle East, which leads to higher oil prices, which leads to higher food prices, which leads to more instability.' According to the Global Footprint Network we are currently growing at a rate that is using up the Earth's resources far faster than they can be sustainably replenished, so we are eating into the future. Right now, global growth is using about 1.5 Earths. 'Having only one planet makes this a rather significant problem,' says Paul Gilding. 'We either allow collapse to overtake us or develop a new sustainable economic model. We will choose the latter. We may be slow, but we're not stupid.'"

24 of 1,070 comments (clear)

  1. Answer: by XanC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No.

    1. Re:Answer: by countertrolling · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes! It's right there in the summary.. We need a new economic model... Resources are more than abundant.. Mismanagement and desire for control is the problem..

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:Answer: by fatphil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We need more contraception.

      We need to recognise that people like Mother Theresa and the Pope are the cause of more suffering in the world, through encouraging people to breed offspring who can't be fed properly, than either Uncle Joe or Uncle Mao.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    3. Re:Answer: by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Reiterate: No.

      1% of the population controls, demands, consumes and excessively wastes better than 85% of the available resources on Earth.

      I assure you, they do not do so through a system that rewards their excessive virtue or merit.

      The planet could sustain many times it's current population with a better equity in distribution. This doesn't mean lowering the status on middle-classes in the developed world, but toppling the capstone of this pyramid.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    4. Re:Answer: by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

      For those that haven't gotten to read it here is the article by Taibbi I assume you're talking about, and anyone who reads it will be hard pressed to see Friedman as anything BUT an absolute moron.

      As for TFA it isn't that we've reached "peak people" it is that the pigs destroy faster than we can create and by HUGE margins! Look at how many things now are "designed for the dump" so some multinational can force you to buy another rather than affordably fixing the one you have. Look at how much wealth is controlled by the top 3% and how much their hoarding tips the scales. These groups have NO problem with poisoning the water table with frakking, with making huge chunks of land uninhabitable with dumped toxins, whatever it takes to get them another 3% profits they are ALL for.

      Frankly most of these problems could be solved if we had real laws with real consequences for causing disasters and massive environmental destruction, but instead these scum will just quietly cash out and leave the superfund sites to the rest of humanity to clean up. if we took a dozen of the top polluters and had their CxOs executed on national TV I bet they wouldn't be so quick to fuck everyone else for another percentage of profit, what do you think?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. We keep saying this... by cortesoft · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Earth wasn't supposed to be able to support half the current global population.

    Then Norman Borlaug came along, and turns out we could support more. Who knows this time around?

    1. Re:We keep saying this... by fatphil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's an empty argument. The earth wasn't supposed to do anything.
      Spin, perhaps, but even that's debatable.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    2. Re:We keep saying this... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with your idea is that "Green Revolution" agriculture is harmful to the soil. Because it involves machinery and pesticides it creates dead soil on top of hardpan. The land will no longer produce vegetables after years of monocropping.

      Indeed. One only has to look at the devastation of the American Midwest, unable to produce any crops after decades of mechanized farming...

      Wait, no. The Midwest produces more crops today then it ever did. Something's wrong here...

    3. Re:We keep saying this... by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wait, no. The Midwest produces more crops today then it ever did. Something's wrong here...

      The land used in corporate farming is now an inert substrate which is being used to grow crops hydroponically using fertilizers and pesticides derived from oil.

      Also, get back to me about what the midwest produces later in the season.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. It's a little early... by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a little early to include the tornadoes as part of a discussion on global climate change. Just like one hot summer doesn't prove it and one cold winter doesn't disprove it (even ignoring the false notion that global climate change != getting warmer everywhere all the time) we'd need to see evidence of increased storm activity for multiple years in close succession before we could draw any conclusions. In general i'm a "believer" in global climate change, but i'm not in favor of using incorrect data to try and prop up the idea.

    --
    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  4. If we all live like Thomas Friedman, sure by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He has a 9.6 million dollar, 11,400 square foot home.

    Oh and his wife used to own a company developing mall properties, those high square foot, poorly insulated buildings surrounded by heat absorbing asphalt.

  5. Of course we're stupid by dargaud · · Score: 5, Insightful
    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  6. Collapse? by osvenskan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We either allow collapse to overtake us or develop a new sustainable economic model. We will choose the latter.

    I wish I could be as sure. Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed does a nice job of documenting societies that, when faced with the same choice, picked collapse. Granted, they didn't have Jared Diamond's book to read beforehand, but neither did they have our capacity for self-immolation.

  7. As Robert A. Heinlein said by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for mankind to keep all its eggs in."

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  8. No by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In 1971, Paul Ehrlich predicted a maximum sustainable world population of 1.2 billion people. By 1994 Ehrlich raised his estimate to 2 billion saying, "the present population of 5.5 billion [..] has clearly exceeded the capacity of Earth to sustain it." Two decades later we're closing in on 7 billion souls the overwhelming majority of which are not expected to starve to death or otherwise suffer a Malthusian catastrophe.

    Overpopulation alarmism has become trite and hackneyed.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:No by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As P. J. O'Rourke once pointed out that (at the time of writing), Freemont, CA has the same population density as Bangladesh, yet NGO's aren't sending swarms of people there to try and convince the residents to stop having families.

      Fretting about overpopulation is just the politically correct way to be racist. Far too many of you; not enough of me.

    2. Re:No by Fractal+Dice · · Score: 4, Funny

      At our current rate of population growth, I calculate that in 5425 years, humanity will be a solid ball of flesh expanding at the speed of light in all directions. I'm drawing the line on exponential growth there.

    3. Re:No by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Over population is definitely something that we need to be concerned with. But in practice that problem tends to take care of itself when the population gets adequate, food, education and support in old age. Few people genuinely want to have more than 3 kids, the number is small enough that if a few people choose to have more it's probably not even worth worrying about.

      The bigger issue is in parts of the world where parents have to depend upon their children to care for them in old age. Parents have no way of knowing how many children will survive to adulthood and as such tend to have a lot more children in order to make sure that they're cared for. These kids then tend to make a similar choice and over time the population just keeps on growing.

      But, rather than disasters, the bigger thing we need to be concerned with is how much of the planet's surface we're dedicating to agriculture and living space. We definitely could grow the population quite a bit and still be able to sustain ourselves, it's just the cost would be extraordinary and we'd have to give up our wild spaces.

    4. Re:No by walshy007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with your argument, is that all of the advanced unnecessary accessories are now comparatively cheap, whereas the basic necessities of life are increasing in cost dramatically.

      A standard size house block of land 50km away from the nearest cbd here costs approximately $300k-400k AUD (about $330k-440k USD) _without_ even a house on it.

      You are looking at closer to a million dollars simply for a typical house.

      Food is still relatively inexpensive if you actually make your own. No one in the 60/70's bought large quantites of pre-made food and ate out for 3 meals a day of fast food.

      The costs of the land to grow your own food costs far more than the produce you would create. If you mean going to the shopping centre and getting ingredients, fast food can work out cheaper.. that is how expensive normal food is these days. It only makes sense to go normal food shopping if you have 3+ people and buy in bulk to create big meals.

      What most people take for granted today as a mediocre lifestyle is beyond what even the wealthy had access to in the 60's and 70's

      Depends on what you want from life, financial independence, owning your own home, not having food bills eat most of your income? Something many now cannot achieve which was easily doable back then.

      Basically, all the luxuries are now cheap, and all the basic necessities of life are now expensive, nice work there.

    5. Re:No by rgbatduke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Evidence for this claim? My father worked to help make the green revolution happen in India and Southeast Asia, and he had absolutely nothing to do with oil (nor did the work done by e.g. Ford Foundation, the Rockefeller foundation, US AID, and so on have anything to do with oil). The bulk of the effort associated with the green revolution was the development of far better crop hybrids -- e.g. advanced rice hybrids developed in Louisiana -- with much higher yields and resistances, modern crop rotation methodologies, the development of a sustainable economic model from the farmer to the table, and much more. "Oil" played a (relatively minor) role in only two ways that I can think of or remember -- replacing bullock carts to some extent with e.g. trucks and rail for transporting crops to more distant locations, and as one of many sources of energy used to make fertilizers. The predominant fuels used by the farmers he worked with before, after, and during the revolution were dried cow dung and charcoal.

      As a consequence of the green revolution and education and a very energetic population, fossil fuel consumption in India has steadily risen along with the gross domestic product as it has moved towards being a modern society, but oil had almost nothing to do with the revolution per se and has nothing at all to do with the "1-2 billion baseline". At least as far as I know (and I probably know a lot more than most people, having lived in India and watched the green revolution happen). If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to enlighten me -- with references.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    6. Re:No by Surt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We shouldn't listen OR not listen to anyone based on the history of other people's failed claims. We should judge claims based on their merit/evidence.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    7. Re:No by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >>Imagine a test tube filled with sugar and water. It represents all the resources and space on earth. Or just think of the earth, it works either way.
      >>Now place one bacteria in the test tube.

      Now replace the bacteria with farmo-bacteria that actively cultivate new food sources. Your analogy begins to fail.

      Now replace the farmo-bacteria with birth-control-farmo-bacteria that can limit their population growth. Your analogy then totally fails.

      >>The depth of your wrongness is staggering.

      The fact that you support Malthus's error even after he was proven wrong over hundreds of years is even more staggering. Malthus was an idiot, you're a fucking moron.

      Food prices have not been growing "as the result of global warming" as TFA says. They've been growing due to idiot policies try are using our food supply for fuel - corn ethanol being the biggest culprit. Which even China has banned as being detrimental to human health and happiness. China.

      Well, I guess indirectly it is AGW causing the problem, but as the result of shortsighted fucktards like yourself that can't think anything through all the way. The Law of Unintended Consequences always tends to bite hippie policies in the ass, but since their "sustainable" lifestyle is mainly subsidized by their parents, they don't ever feel the pain.

  9. It;s meaningless to ask if we have reached max pop by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's meaningless to ask if we have reached maximum sustainable population size unless you also specify what standard of living you are talking about. I can recall reading about 20 years ago that we had already passed the point where it was possible to give everyone on Earth the same standard of living as the average American.

    But standard of living really is a proxy for resource consumption and not a very good one because as technology advances it can produce more from less. Eventually you reach a wall though. Pick a resource utilization number and multiply by population. Is it greater than the available resources? If yes then we have passed the sustainable population. OTOH divide available resources by population and you have the allowed resource utilization to maintain that population.

    Of course that all becomes more complicated when you treat resources as finite.

    Of course that all becomes more complicated when you try to factor in the effects of growing technological capabilities.

    Of course that all becomes more complicated when you try to factor in the effects of human nature.

    --
    The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
  10. Re:lots of nonsense by artor3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who gives a flying fuck what the purchasing power of [arbitrary currency unit] is? What matters is how much a typical person can buy with a day's wage. That is a hell of a lot higher today than it was in the 19th century.