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Court Case To Test Legality of Recording the Police With Your Cell Phone

suraj.sun sends this excerpt from Ars Technica: "If you pull out your cell phone to make a video of police officers arresting a suspect, are you 'secretly recording' them? 'No' seems like the obvious answer, but that's precisely the claim that three police officers made to justify their arrest of a Boston man. In arguments before the US Court of Appeals for the First Circuit on Wednesday, the city also denied the man's claim that his First or Fourth Amendment rights had been violated. The case will be an important test of whether the Constitution protects individuals' right to record the police while they are on duty. Many states have 'one-party notification' wiretapping laws that allow any party to a conversation to secretly record it. But under the strict 'two-party notification' laws in Massachusetts, it's a crime to 'secretly record' audio communications unless 'all parties to such communication' have given their consent. The police arrested Glik for breaking this law. For good measure, they also charged Glik—who did no more than stand a few feet away with his cell phone—with 'aiding the escape of a prisoner' and 'disturbing the peace.'"

31 of 384 comments (clear)

  1. Checks and balances by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a good thing the US was founded with the notion of check and balances so as to prevent abuse of power...

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    1. Re:Checks and balances by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Didn't someone already appeal that law? Seems like it, with all the BS going on like this today. I sure hope a judge throws this crap out and displays some anger about this kind of crap, but sadly the cops are probably friends with the prosecutor and he is golf buddies with the judge, and as such checks and balances ends up just being more lip service to keep us minions quiet and paying our taxes.

    2. Re:Checks and balances by Idbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean personal checks (or cashier checks from big banks) and well balanced accounts?

    3. Re:Checks and balances by naz404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The police are public employees, they are salaried with taxes you pay them. Therefore, you are their bosses and they are working on *YOUR* time. You have the right to record and monitor what they do at work.

      They're your goddam employees and you have the right to make sure they don't engage in shenanigans on YOUR time.

      Moreover, one of the judges in one of the states (forgot which) already ruled that it is legal to record police who are on active duty because during then, they're "in public space", and not subject to the same privacy laws with wiretaps, etc. This was covered in a previous slashdot story.

    4. Re:Checks and balances by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Let this be a lesson to all those people who, when confronted with an overly broad law, say, "Well, yes, you could go after innocent people with this, but the police would not do such thing; they need this law to make it easier for them to get the bad guys." Laws should be narrow, precise, and low in number; nobody should ever be confused about why they are being arrested, and nobody should ever be surprised to find out they have broken a law. The police have far too much power, and far too many ways to justify arresting someone, and we should be talking about ways to solve that problem, rather than making it worse.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    5. Re:Checks and balances by Obfuscant · · Score: 3

      How can anybody even think it might be illegal...? I don't get it.

      You mean other than there is a law in MASS that says that both parties involved in a recording must give consent for it to be legal?

      I'm pretty sure that if a cop's supervisor tells a cop that there is a law that makes something illegal, and he goes to the books and looks it up to verify, he's probably going to think that it is illegal. I know that if a cop tells me something is illegal, and I can go to the statutes and find that yes, there is a statute saying it is illegal, I am going to think it is illegal, too.

      I read the law, and I don't think it is a twisted interpretation of what it actually says to believe that secretly recording a police officer is illegal under the provisions as listed. It simply is too broad in defining terms, and you don't get to apply a knowledgable /. kind of definition of things when the law itself contains the definitions.

      SHOULD the district court "throw the case out"? Of course not. That's exactly the wrong thing to do. You want a ruling that says "this is nonsense, the law is unconstitutional" or whatever will make the law invalid. Simply throwing the case out will let the lower court decision stand.

      Yes, I think it should be legal, too. An obvious exception to the MASS law should be "recording of government employee identified as such while acting under color of authority". The law (http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter272/Section99) does not contain such an exemption, although it does contain many others.

    6. Re:Checks and balances by TheLink · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The biggest reason there are so many laws on the books are because most laws do not have a stated lifespan/expiry, and there is no "de-legislative" body dedicated to removing/repealing laws they think should not be there :),

      The legislature has the power to repeal laws, but they are usually too busy making laws...

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    7. Re:Checks and balances by Gerzel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with narrow and precise means that you need more laws to cover all of the things that should, justly, be illegal.

      It is a balancing act like so many things in life.

      Similar to the US small government arguments. The US will never have a small government, nor should it as it is a large nation. There is a lot that the US government needs to cover and should be doing. While I agree that as a whole it should be reduced there are many places where it should be expanded and many more that should not be reduced.

    8. Re:Checks and balances by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IIRC the key distinction is audio recording. This is why security cameras do not have audio.

    9. Re:Checks and balances by j00r0m4nc3r · · Score: 3, Funny

      The police are public employees, they are salaried with taxes you pay them. Therefore, you are their bosses and they are working on *YOUR* time. You have the right to record and monitor what they do at work.

      Can I make them come in on Saturday to work on some TPS reports? Oh, and Sunday too...

    10. Re:Checks and balances by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with narrow and precise means that you need more laws to cover all of the things that should, justly, be illegal.

      We are way past that point right now. We live in a world where people can go to prison for possession of certain comic books. You can be arrested and imprisoned for growing a plant. Teenagers have been arrested for photographing themselves. Court cases often come down to arguments about a person's "intent" and not what the person actually did. It is becoming uncommon for defendants to face only one criminal accusation.

      As I said, nobody should ever be surprised when they are arrested -- people who break the law should not have any doubt as to whether or not what they are doing is illegal, unless they never had access to a single book or television. "Narrow and precise" does not mean "so extremely narrow that the law is meaningless," it means a legal system with clearly defined boundaries between "legal" and "illegal." There will always been edge cases and situations where it is not entirely clear if a law was broken, which is why we have a system of appeals, but for the most part people should be able to say with confidence that they are not in violation of the law.

      While I agree that as a whole it should be reduced there are many places where it should be expanded

      Where do you think our criminal code needs to be expanded? I cannot think of any such category of behavior, but maybe I am not creative enough.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    11. Re:Checks and balances by xmundt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A good thought there, but, of course, a pipe dream, because there are so many lawyers making laws that it is exactly like putting a fox in charge of the chicken coop. Having said that, though, I have advocated for years that the only amendments to a law should be something that directly applies to and changes the law itself.
                Part of the problem with the white elephant of legislation these days is that it is far too easy, and far too common to have a collection of totally non-related laws attached to a law that a lot of people want, to ensure that they all will get passed. We have all seen it happen, and, that is one of the reason we have laws that are 1000+ pages long...
                The system is certainly off balance, if not completely broken...yet every side wants to keep it because they can leverage it to their advantage, no matter what might be best for the country...

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      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    12. Re:Checks and balances by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As someone who has a scar on the back of his head and a shoulder that hurts when it rains because of a cop that started with, and I quote "God damned niggers and fucking hippies, I don't know which I hate more" (BTW said "nigger" was a baptist minister I was taking to a revival to raise money for the homeless) I can say the reason why cops want to be able to throw your ass in jail if you dare to take their picture is a hell of a lot of them are roid raged "bullies with badges" that frankly took the job to get off on being absolute fucking pricks.

      For a good example of why they want the cameras stopped I'd suggest you watch the largest gang in America and then you tell me what makes the actions in the video ANY different from the large scale intimidation tactics done by the brown shirts and the black shirts in times past? And before anyone says Godwin you watch the video and tell me that isn't large scale intimidation designed to suppress those that the blue shirts consider "undesirable". As I said I still have a scar from being a white person with hair the wrong length associating with a race the blue shirt considered undesirable.

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      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:Checks and balances by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What the hell does this mean "go to prison for possession of certain comic books"

      No, that was not an exaggeration:

      http://boingboing.net/2009/05/27/manga-collector-face.html

      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/manga-porn/

      Did you think I was just making it up? Or were you not paying attention to the sorts of laws that have been passed in the United States?

      Again I think you are leaving out a couple of facts with this beauty "Teenagers have been arrested for photographing themselves".

      No, actually, I left nothing out; just ask these teenagers:

      http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479803,00.html

      Oh, sorry, that was a Fox News link. Here, something less fair and balanced:

      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/03/aclu-sues-da-ov/

      Note that the three girls who took the photographs -- photographs of themselves -- were arrested, as were the boys who received them. Not one of the people arrested here was over the age of 16.

      This "people who break the law should not have any doubt as to whether or not what they are doing is illegal" assertion says more about idiots committing the crime than it does about the law.

      Oh yeah? Are you sure that you have never committed a felony? These people were pretty sure too:

      http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/05/criminalizing-everyone/

      Did you remember to check all the paperwork relating to your hobbies? Obviously importing orchids without doing so is something you can go to jail for, right?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  2. Police have no expectation of privacy by WillAdams · · Score: 5, Interesting

    when performing official duties for the good of the public.

    If their supervisor showed up, they'd have to fully disclose everything which they were doing, ditto internal affairs, the police chief / superintendent, or a government functionary whose bailiwick involved the performance of their current duties.

    If they have something to hide, which they don't want revealed in court, they need to find some other line of work.

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by future+assassin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they got nothing to hide then they have nothing to worry about. Isn't that the moto all police forces want you to live by?

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      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    2. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Boohoo. Public officials have no expectation of privacy in a public place. The 1st Circuit already ruled on this years ago.

    3. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's also the argument that gets brought forward that the bystander usually doesn't record the entire encounter. Sometimes what happened (or was visible) a second before means what the policeman is doing is justified to keep the peace.

      Sorry, no. Nothing that happened previously justifies punching a restrained suspect.

    4. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by TheCouchPotatoFamine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      no it doesnt! you are a fool. If the guy is down or restrained he is down or restrained. If the freakin' video shows the guy was restrained or incapacitated and they KEPT GOING, then no "context" is needed. This is obvious, and the cops want to justify their use of force... they are trained and paid to know how to deal with this. Not act like a scared granma with a shotgun.

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      CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
    5. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by starfishsystems · · Score: 5, Informative

      Case in point: Robert Dziekanski, a Polish traveller to Canada who was neglected for several hours in the airport immigration area, and who was then tasered to death by four RCMP officers within a few seconds of their arrival on the scene.

      The RCMP confiscated this video and only released it after enormous public pressure. Imagine what would have happened without this evidence. As it was, the police failed to separately debrief those officers in order to plausibly minimize the appearance of collusion. The same four officers are now charged with perjury after telling a fabricated story in which Dziekanski "attacked them with a stapler." This is the story which the RCMP administration vigorously defended and then ultimately abandoned - all at public cost.

      During the inquiry, the RCMP introduced massive procedural delays upon request to produce the internal documents recorded as a result of the incident. After documents were finally released, they were found to be incomplete. Significant among these, a police email suggested the officers made plans to taser Dziekanski even before they saw him. The RCMP lawyer eventually withdrew in tears after acknowledging the omission.

      This is what the police did in the face of independent evidence. Imagine what would have happened without this video as evidence.

      --
      Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
    6. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Spoken like someone who has never been harassed, abused, or falsely accused by the police. My guess is that you would change your tune in a heartbeat if you were on the other side of it, even once. If the officers were truly using "reasonable force" responding to the suspect, they should welcome all video evidence of the encounter. If they have done nothing wrong, it will enforce that fact.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    7. Re:Police have no expectation of privacy by honkycat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The issue with taping your kid at the park is that you're going to incidentally record other people in the background. Did you specifically obtain consent from each of them, or did you reasonably assume that they could see you were making a recording and therefore it was not a secret recording?

  3. Re:If they have nothing to hide? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Especially when I doubt any of these same police officers ask consent of the drivers they record with their dashboard cams.

  4. First Circuit already has precedent on this... by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hopefully the First Circuit court doesn't forget their 1999 ruling in Iacobucci v. Boulter where the upheld the right to record public figures on public property. But according to the article the judges seem to find the reasoning of the city to be quite absurd so that is a good sign.

  5. civil disobedience by Hazel+Bergeron · · Score: 3

    In the event that the outcome goes the wrong way, all that's needed is for enough campaign groups on both sides of the political spectrum to encourage their supporters to routinely record the police whenever they see them, providing they are in groups of more than some particular size and providing their camera streams to a remote server.

    R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy brought the saying to English law that it is not enough that justice must be done - it must also be seen to be done. The principle is about impartiality and appeared before video cameras, but surely preventing or destroying any recording of a police officer acting in public under colour of law is, "creat[ing] a suspicion that there has been an improper interference with the course of justice."

  6. Re:If they have nothing to hide? by Ksevio · · Score: 3, Informative

    The law is for audio recordings, not video only. I know I was pulled over once (light out) and the first thing the officer did was to inform me that he was recording audio and asked if I consented (I don't know what would happen if I didn't....).

  7. Re:Two-way street by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Informative

    And police officers are exempt from this wiretapping law as well despite what these asshat cops and Boston think. Public officials, in this instance police officers, have NO expectation of privacy in a public place. There is already relevant case law from this very same circuit court to back this up.

  8. Re:At least you still get a trial hear with a jury by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yet the jury is given such specific instructions that if they don't know their rights as a juror before serving on the jury, then the judge has nearly complete control over what happens.

    --

    I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  9. Re:recording the police should be a right by nahdude812 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Agreed, and in addition, the destruction or attempted destruction of civilian video of law enforcement activity by any interested party (including government agents or subjects of the police activity) should be considered destruction of evidence, and treated accordingly. It should also be possible to subpoena the contents of this video by any interested party.

    Patrol car video should continue recording for at least 10 minutes after the stop recording event happens (no turning the camera off and on during a stop), and it should be illegal for a police officer to intentionally attempt to prevent the recording via any means.

    In sort, recordings on both sides should be used to protect either party of a police action, not just the police officer.

  10. Does the press get an exemption? by wcrowe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If a news crew happen to be in the area and record what happens, are they violating the law also? Perhaps some legal expert can explain the difference to me.

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    Proverbs 21:19
  11. bogus charges by Khashishi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The charges were dropped, of course, since they had no chance of standing up in court. The point was to intimidate the guy and put him in jail. The problem is that cops can just arrest you for a bogus charge and then drop the charges later. You get screwed anyway.