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Apple To Start Making TVs?

timothy writes "Apple might want to sell you your next TV,' says this CNN report. Which makes a lot of sense, considering that Apple's razors-and-blades, vertical-marketplace model for iTunes (and the various iDevices) doesn't make as much sense with the world of TV, where your Sony, Samsung, or (egads!) Westinghouse set is just as happy with a Google TV box, or a Roku, or one of many other media devices, as it is with an Apple TV attached."

28 of 313 comments (clear)

  1. But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by killfixx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How would bundling a TV with AppleTV and iTunes NOT be anti-competitive?

    --
    "Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
    1. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by necro81 · · Score: 2

      Bundling the browser was not, in and of itself, the problem. A main thrust of the problem was Microsoft then going to computer OEMs and saying "if you want Windows on your machine (and, being the overwhelmingly dominant OS on the market, you must), then you cannot bundle any other browser". There were many other aspects to the case against Microsoft, but that's probably the one you were aiming at.

      In this case, Apple does not have a monopoly on making TVs or net-connected set-top boxes, nor even on internet-delivered content for those set-top boxes. Yes, they are a vertically-integrated walled garden, but there are plenty of wide-open meadows out there, and there isn't anything that Apple delivers that can't also be had from half a dozen other solutions. So they don't have a dominant position there to abuse.

      You would have more luck in chasing the "impenetrable fortress garden" of iPhone/iPad, iOS, iTunes, and the App Store. But given the plethora of similar alternative devices, you'd have a hard time even there.

    2. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I must have missed the alternate universe where IE was banned in 1999.

      Microsoft wanted to protect its market and decided to do so by using its existing monopoly to control a likely future threat, by developing a web browser in competition with Netscape's and then doing what it could to ensure its browser, and not Netscape, would become standard, in particular using its control over a product it had a monopoly in to promote IE and suppress Netscape.

      This is somewhat different from Apple, who doesn't really have a monopoly in anything deciding to enter a new market so that it can sell its products and services there. Microsoft did the same thing without anti-trust criticism in the form of the X-Box. There's nothing illegal or anti-competitive about that.

      BTW, interesting fact: what got Microsoft so heated up about Netscape was that it was genuinely concerned that the web might become an environment in which an open, or at least not-controlled-by-Microsoft platform for software in the future. If the platform was not under Microsoft's control, then people might very well cease to be tied to Windows.

      And that's exactly what's happened since the anti-trust suit. The move to an entirely web based infrastructure has been slow, but much of the success of Apple in the 21st Centursy has been attributable to the decreasing need to use Windows as the browser becomes the major tool that everyone uses for an increasing percentage of their work (in some cases all of it.) Are we there yet? Obviously not, but when John Carmack releases Doom 7, available for all HTML7 browsers, complaining that the W3C Net3DObjects API sucks the big one, I suspect it'll be largely game over.

      Would that be true if Microsoft hadn't been sued? If Microsoft had been allowed to bury Mozilla the same way it did Netscape? If Apple hadn't bothered with WebKit/KHTML because, frankly, nothing out there of any significance worked in anything other than Trident? Would smartphones still be the unpopular devices of geeks and CEOs?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by DJRumpy · · Score: 2

      A monopoly isn't a requirement for an anti-competitive lawsuit, and neither is a monopoly. You must have abused the market in such a way to force others to compete at a disadvantage.

      Microsoft did so by trying to force PC vendors to bundle IE.

    4. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      Again the problem that MS had was not that it bundled a browser. The problem MS had was (1) they had a monopoly on operating systems and (2) they used that monopoly to harm and exclude others like Netscape and Sun. Yes Netscape made a lot of mistakes but it came out in the trial tactics that MS used like "hinting" to OEMs that their Windows prices would rise if they installed or supported Netscape products. Intel wanted to develop a JVM for Java; MS let them know that AMD would be the "preferred" CPU in their next version of Windows if they did. As in any anti-trust the government had to prove that mere presence of a monopoly is not enough to be convicted. MS did engage in anti-competitive tactics.

      So Apple currently has 0% presence in the TV market. They have a small presence with their AppleTV product. First they have to gain controlling market share to be considered monopoly status. Then they have to do something to harm their competition. This is hypothetically years away from being able to addressed as a legitimate legal question.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    5. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by DJRumpy · · Score: 2

      Add to that the fact that android came out of nowhere and now dominates the market. I the market was anti-competetive, I don't think we'd be seein the maker as it is today. It seems to be working fine.

    6. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by stewbacca · · Score: 2

      Others are free to build an iTunes ecosystem, AppleTV device, and a TV. I'm not sure what Apple has done to be anti-competitive other than make really good products that people want to buy.

      What has Apple done that prevents other from doing the sam

    7. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

      How would bundling a TV with AppleTV and iTunes NOT be anti-competitive?

      Are you selling torches and pitchforks or something?

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    8. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They have proprietary system that is designed to be very costly to leave. In order for someone to decide to abandon Apple, they have to be first comfortable with losing any access to whatever DRM laden purchases they've made and be willing to flush all of that money down the toilet and spend it all over again.

      It's classic vendor lock.

      DVD and BD may be "primitive" but I can choose from multiple vendors without completely losing access to my entire media library.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 2

      Sony and Microsoft have both done just this. They have their own content stores, set top boxes, and in the case of Sony, TV's that talk to both.

      The real reason that Apple should not do a TV is that they suck at it. The ATV2 is a serious step backward from my ATV1 in almost every measure other than physical size. It has extremely poor connectivity and doesn't even link to a Mac any more. It's a reasonable $99 Netflix box, but so are many TV's.

    10. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by Sinning · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But can you install it on your iPhone?

    11. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by stewbacca · · Score: 2

      I'm confused on two points: what's Apple doing that prevents any other company from "vendor lock" business practices, and who ever promised you should be able to play your content on any device ever?

    12. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by intheshelter · · Score: 3, Informative

      Music has NO DRM.

      Movies have DRM at the behest of the movie industry. Blame the movie industry

      iOS apps do not run on Android, Blackberry, Nokia, etc. Blackberry and Android apps don't run on iOS. Apple is NO different than anyone else, different platform different compatibilities.

      I don't see "classic vendor lock", I see "classic disingenuous hyperbole" from your inacurate comment.

    13. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by morari · · Score: 2, Funny

      Price doesn't matter. iTards will buy anything if it's shiny and white. In fact, they'll demand to pay two or three times the normal market price of similar devices. After all, how else are they suppose to feel elite?

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    14. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by tgibbs · · Score: 2

      They have proprietary system that is designed to be very costly to leave. In order for someone to decide to abandon Apple, they have to be first comfortable with losing any access to whatever DRM laden purchases they've made and be willing to flush all of that money down the toilet and spend it all over again.

      Oh, you mean like a Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft game system?

      But there is one big difference. I do lose the entire value of my games if I abandon those companies. There are not games available for any of those systems without DRM, and there is very little that I can do with them other than play games (except for playing blu-ray on the PS3). But there is plenty of content available for Apple products that either free (so not "costly" in any sense), or not restricted by Apple's DRM. Almost all of the music in my iTunes was ripped directly from CDs. Some of it is mp3's purchased from Amazon. On my appleTV, I can watch movies from Netflix (which has Netflix's DRM, but not Apple's; I could use other devices if I wanted to).

    15. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      There are at least a dozen different browsers available for iOS. The only restriction is you need to use the Webkit library built into iOS for rendering, so technically Mozilla could come out with a Firefox mobile for iOS that uses webkit.

      Translation: There are at least a dozen different Skin & Addon packs available for Mobile Safari.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    16. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It doesn't matter who you choose to blame. Your attempt to create excuses for Apple are ultimately meaningless.

      The fact remains that Apple is being handed the means to create and enforce a monopoly on a silver platter.

      This is simply inevitable when you have SINGLE VENDOR DRM.

      The "evil content industry" imposes this on physical media but at least that's a multiple-vendor DRM standard. YU

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    17. Re:But Microsoft can't bundle a browser?!?!?!?! by badran · · Score: 2

      So are saying it would be ok for MS to force all the browsers to just the IE engine on Windows?

  2. If Apple made a TV today. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because of "consumer demand" it:

    1) won't support HDCP sources
    2) won't have a VGA input, because, hey, it's a TV
    3) would be a CRT
    4) would be only an HD Ready tv (720p), with 1080i scheduled for next year, and 1080p for the year later (only in the 60hz frequency, and not the 24hz one).
    5) would only work with airport-enabled stereo systems for audio output
    6) would only play back video from thunderbolt-enabled cameras
    7) would refuse to play porn movies even if legitimately bought by the users, because appletvs are for all the family
    8) there would be no remote, it's a free app on itunes for iphone 5
    9) would only have a single button: the "on" switch (mind you, it turns only on the tv)
    10) would only give you fox news, and would refuse to show MSNBC
    11) would refuse to work with usb pendrives because it's everything on the cloud
    12) would require the user to use a set of apple-branded eyeballs

  3. Makes sense? by antifoidulus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How does this even remotely "make sense" for Apple? By bundling Apple TV with a TV you are essentially targeting the market who wants, but doesn't currently have an Apple TV and is in the market for a new television.....thats what, maybe hundreds of people tops? The TV market is a commodity market where the interface is usually last on people's list of priorities. Unlike a PC, cell phone, or music player, you almost never interact with the TVs interface, consumers buy based on size, price, connectivity and picture quality. A TV really only needs to be able to turn on and off, switch channels and video inputs.
    This ranks up there with some of the stupidest Apple articles I have seen.

    1. Re:Makes sense? by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      Yes, but an Apple TV is something special. You expect the experience to be fabulous and Steveish. As pretty and minimalist as the AppleTV box is, it's still a separate box. And Steve hates boxes and wires.

      I don't think it will happen, but it could. And if it does, it will chain you that much tighter to the iEcoSystem.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Makes sense? by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      > Imagine if they make a TV user interface that'll control an entire home theater setup, one that'll put the Logitech Harmony and the equivalent to shame

      Then why haven't they already? They don't need to embed something in your TV to do that.

      Or perhaps you simply are unaware of the technical challenges involved? Not uncommon for an Apple Fanboy.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:Makes sense? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      And if it does, it will chain you that much tighter to the iEcoSystem.

      IEco IEco

      Your Spy-Boy and My Spy-Boy sitting by the TV
      My Spy-Boy says to your Spy-Boy
      "I'm gonna send your deets to Stevie"

      Talkin' 'bout
      Hey now (hey now)
      Hey now (hey now)
      IEco IEco an nay (whoah-oh)
      Jockomo feena ah na nay
      Jockomo feena nay

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  4. Wow by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2

    A television with a decent user interface! Thats a novel idea.

  5. Rarely interact with your TV? by brokeninside · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most people rarely "interact" with their TV the same way that they rarely interact with their cell phones and mustic players. Note the shift from the prevailing view not all that long ago of "I don't want all these features, I just want to make a damned phone call" to wanting the latest iPhone or Android. Ditto with music players.

    These days, when people watch TV, they want to schedule recordings, pause, play, rewind, watch two shows at once with picture in a picture, have a stock ticker running while they watch a comedy, stream video sources, stream audio over the internet while they play a video game, make phone calls, etc. Turning what essentially a dumb disply into a smart device capable of doing that is the next logical step.

    So the market that would be targetted is not the existing market of people buying an Apple set top box. Rather, it's people looking for new TVs and, if the rumors are true, the strategy is to get a sizeable portion of that market to buy one that has Apple's iOS built into it. I think that's a reasonable strategy. The biggest obstacle seems to me to not be the market itself but barriers to entry for varioius services. Cable companies hate cable-ready TVs. They absolutely loved the advent of digital TV where they could start encrypting the signal and requiring a set top box in every room. Apple is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to convince cable companies to allow Apple branded TVs to use the Apple interface rather than the set top box of the cable company. As long as consumers pretty much have to use the cable company interface, or as long as cable card is inconvenient to install, it's going to be difficult to break into the market.

    That is, until such time as streaming over the Internet is capable of replacing cable service.

  6. AppleTV or integrated AppleTV? by DynamoJoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple already has a device that handles everything the TV needs without having to deal with the TV's problems (backlight, dead pixels, manufacturing problems/"green-ness", etc). My guess is if Apple is looking in this direction, they're going to sell AppleTV equipment to TV manufacturers for integration into their TVs, not their own Apple-branded flat panels. I seriously doubt Apple will release an Apple TV to compete with the Sonys and Philips And Samsungs out there, but Apple will happily sell those companies a plug-in module that'll increase the value of their TVs and increase the userbase of the iTunes store. Maybe Sony won't bite, but the smaller manufacturers might.

    --
    bah.
  7. Re:anti competitive by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anti-Competitive needn't be limited to sleazy back room dealings to prevent competitors access to the market.

    But Apple hasn't done things to prevent competitors from entering the market; as evidenced by the number of competitors it has in each market it is in.

    Apple's devices, in particular, have been unassailable; which puts other CE manufacturers in an awkward position. If Apple could be counted on to add a little "Redmond design" to each product, there would be a more competitive landscape.

    Success in the marketplace does not equate to being anti-competitive. In fact, much of what Apple does is rather beneficial to competitors - Apple doesn't slash prices to drive competitors out, they actual tend to keep theirs high even when other products enter their markets, they don't demand exclusivity in order to use their software on a product (they don't even license their OS); they don't limit their competitors ability to distribute and sell their products in the same markets; they don't get other manufacturers together and say "the price of tablets is $600, the price of computers is $900"...

    They have a significant presence in the market because their products are popular, not because of any anti-competitive actions on their part.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  8. What DRM?!? by Brannon · · Score: 2

    All music is DRM-free on iTunes and has been for years, and was made DRM-free at Apple's insistence over years of objections from the music industry.