Slashdot Mirror
Hackers To School Next Generation At DEFCON Kids
fangmcgee writes "DEFCON hackers will share their skills with the next generation at a first-ever children's version of the infamous gathering of software renegades, lock pickers and social engineers. A hacker conference for children is controversial even in the DEFCON community. Prime targets for criticism include lock picking and social engineering, the art of manipulating people into revealing sensitive information. 'Everyone is up in arms that we are going to teach kids to be evil, but that is not the case,' said Chris Hadnagy, who trains companies to guard against slick-talking hackers and runs the website social-engineer.org. 'Think critically, think objectively — that is what this industry teaches people,' continued Hadnagy, a DEFCON Kids mentor. "
I was very pleased to read that they are "Certified Ethical" hackers. Not just ethical, "certified" ethical!
Gently reply
just watch out for the kids in dark conservative suits and short haircuts. do they still play spot the fed at defcon??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
something like professional script kiddies? what could possibly go wrong... :)
Actually, I think they are. The more people know about social engineering (or pretty much any "evil" knowledge, technique or information), the more people will realize when it's happening to them.
Remember the old saying: if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.
Teaching these kids the fundamentals of social engineering will help them recognize it and avoid being victimized by it. I think this is a really great idea.
Part of the problem with this is that you might be teaching it to people who don't have the emotional maturity to truly gauge the difference between right and wrong ... don't most teenagers test as sociopaths in personality tests?
You're doing a lot more than simply teaching them to think critically and objectively ... you're teaching them to do things which range from shady to illegal, and they might not fully grasp that.
I'm not sure a 14 year old needs lock-picking skills. Though, I'm sure some hilarity could ensue.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
'Think critically, think objectively
That is why it is really being criticized, no one wants kids thinking that way. Then they might question stuff.
There's something to be said for this. Kids should be taught all the common scams in school. Every kid should know the classics - the shell game, the badger game, the big store, the Spanish prisoner, lottery scams, pyramid schemes, forced teaming, etc. See List of Confidence Tricks on Wikipedia.
Speaking of which, how is coaxing someone into a car with a piece of candy different than coaxing someone into revealing their password with a piece of candy?
I think that teaching this as a self defense class would apply to more than just computer crimes, being able to recognize when someone is attempting to socially engineer you into doing what you're not supposed to do is an extremely valuable life skill.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
As someone who has gone to Defcon myself and work in the security industry I don't think I would send my (presently non-existent) kids to this. While I have no qualms about Defcon teaching these items I feel like kids don't have the ability to understand the ramifications of their actions, which is why we try them differently in court. Once they get out of this class what are they going to be able to do with their new found ability to pick a lock? They can't get a job as a pen-tester or some other legal activity so the only thing that they will use this skill for is illegal. Also, the general atmosphere for Defcon isn't very conducive to children with the whole hotel being drunk, loud music playing and people partying all night. Maybe I am not even a father yet and I am already too conservative.
Are you Pokey the Penguin?
... than by any church.
Hmm what kind of Italian seduction are we talking here? I may be willing to investigate...to asses this threat. :D
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
D'oh! Meant to reply to the FP.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
The exact violation is called contributing to the delinquency of a minor. It might be hard to convict, but it would not be hard to get an arrest order for the any presenter.
I am all for early learning especially in today's economy and the one to come. It will only be to a kids advantage. As for can kids make the decision between right and wrong? For some yes for some no. Can adults make the decision between right or wrong. Given the past economic crisis, fighting blood for oil wars you be the judge!! Point is the choice you make has everything to do with upbringing, environment and the friends you keep. LEARN so you can EARN. kd.
...teach kids how to read! They might build a bomb! /sarcasm
I8-D
Considering all of the things that have gone on at Defcon in the past, I don't really think it's the greatest idea to have a meetup for 8-16 year olds there. Perhaps the Defcon community has matured and will serve as much better tutors for the next generation...
Then again, I was one of the people doing crazy things over the past few years, so I probably have no room to speak :p
Your 1st line was excellent ("You had me @ hello" in other words/in a way) and pretty much "the point". Excellent, in my opinion!
However - What do you SAY to an article like this though?
1.) Not teaching it is suppression of information - & yes, information that CAN BE USED "for the good" too!
(I.E. -> There's an old adage of "it takes a thief to catch a thief" more or less! To understand hacker/cracker types, you have to "channel your inner criminal" so-to-speak - & quite often, we've all heard about law enforcement recruiting (or even coercing) former hacker/cracker types to work FOR them & they're probably the BEST @ IT I'd wager!)
2.) Teaching it to kids as you stated, MAY not be the "best idea" & for the reasons you stated!
(Think about this: Drug dealers use young kids below the age of 16 (legal adult crime limit in most states for most crimes iirc) to peddle/push their "wares". Think hacker/cracker types would hesitate here on the same basis?? I don't).
APK
P.S.=> This is one of those "shades of gray" things... but, someone give gstoddart mod up (I can't, someone took the APK registered user account name here, so... there you are, no mod points here)
...apk
Oh the horror. The tb/reps will never let it happen.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
No one will be scammed.
God: "I don't leave footprints!"
'Think critically, think objectively — that is what this industry teaches people,' continued Hadnagy,
This is the United States of America, pal. We don't go in for those kind of radical subversive ideas here.
The same arguments could be made for or against teaching a child martial arts. In my opinion it is another way to teach children to think critically. But with great power come great responsibility.
This sounds very interesting to me. I'm 23 years old. Can I still sign up?
I have been taking my kids to science-fiction conventions ever since the early 1990's. Kids programing tracks were rare at SF cons until fairly recently, and now they're pretty common, in part because more SF fans are reproducing with other fans - the alternative is dumping the kids at Grandma's for the weekend.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
How should knowledge be evil? Knowledge is a tool, much like knives, baseball bats, cars and explosives. All of these things can be used for good or evil. Depending on the person wielding them. That's the key here, the person using a tool decides whether it will be used for good or ill of society.
Will those kids use their knowledge to pick the lock to your liquor cabinet? You bet they will! And they'll get drunk and have a hangover the size of Kansas the next day. Which is by some margin more teaching and less dangerous than you luckily keeping them away from liquor 'til they 18 so they get their first contact with (lots of) it at spring break, surrounded by like minded (and intoxinated) peers and some people having nothing better in their mind than to exploit this... but I digress.
If anything, it will also teach kids that their actions have consequences, and that parents usually have reasons for the rules they impose. If there is no good reason for the rule but to prove who's the boss in the house, I guess it will also teach parents a thing or two about good parenting.
It will also teach kids something about responsibility and that actions have consequences. And I'd definitely expect the "teachers" to read a few lines from the "ethical hacking" book. Dear child, you get a mighty powerful gift, but be aware that this also means that it is your responsibility to wield it carefully.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You know the old saying: The internet. Where men are men, women are men, and kids are FBI agents.
What are they gonna do? Send midgets?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
last defcon I went to was like a fucking rave/hipster hangout.
I was 15 when I went to the first Defcon at the Sands. Children have a natural curiosity about what makes things work and it makes perfect sense to expose to "hacking" and other out of the box ways to think about things. My experiences in the computer underground paved the way for my current career in IT.
actually i was thinking more of an agents kid being "wired".
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Whoever is worried about this is forgetting something - most of the kids I know are already very good at finding out what they want to know. It is better to guide them than to stick your head in the sand until they make the kind of mistakes you could have prevented by guiding them.
I was involved in part of the last Access All Areas in London. I recall an 11 year old kid with a re-chipped NEC P3 analogue cell phone, joining in in conversations in the vicinity (which was actually rather funny), and a 12 year old girl who decided to use the systems there to email her friend - by telnetting to port 25 and doing the whole SMTP session by hand.
Ah, those evil memories. I had just bought a Samsonite case with a digital lock, and someone tried to open that for two days - in the end resorting to typing every number from 0000 to 9999 and still not managing it (despite me opening it various times during the day). The solution was as evil as it was funny: I had discovered you didn't need to use all 4 digits so the actual code I used was "9" - the rest was me faking key presses 8-).
Teach the kids, please. Otherwise we'll stop making things safer, which is never a good idea..
Insert
You said "asses".
Whoops, Freudian slip :-P
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I wish I had a kid of my own... I would love to send him or her to this conference. When I was a kid, it was perfectly normal and accepted to go to judo or karate classes. What our parents expected was that we would learn how to _defend_ ourselves from attacks, if that ever became necessary. Quite unlikely in the place I grew up, but at the very least we'd learn how to take falls properly, and we'd get regular exercise. This DEFCON Kids conference is just like that. At the very least, the kids get to hear about what can happen on the net, and they learn how to deal with it in a safe environment (yes, safe - because, let's face it, this conference is going to be monitored from here to kingdom come).
Instructors at kids' martial arts classes make it very clear that what you learn there is to be used for sports and self defense only. Kids naturally look up to the instructors, maybe even more so than to their parents, and they learn an important moral lesson at an early age. I think this conference is a great idea. Regular classes with mock intrusions would be even better. I live in a non-english speaking part of Europe, so I can't send my own offspring to DEFCON Kids (and I'd still have to get kids somehow, got to read up on that), but I'm tempted to set up something similar over here.
CJ
Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
I would take my son if I could afford the extra airfare and $150 DC entry fee for him. Maybe next year.
"Prime targets for criticism include lock picking [...]"
Yeah, it turns out if you practice actual parenting, your kids will be OK with these skills. My son wanted me to make him a set of picks. Since I had already instilled good picking habits in him (don't pick locks you don't own and don't pick locks you rely on), I didn't hesitate to make him some with the extra caveat that they were not to leave the house.
A lot of us at the first few DEFCON's have kids now.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/us-germany-hacking-idUSTRE75T2Q420110630
This year it will kick off the first Defcon Kids conference for children between eight and 16 to learn the skills of computer hackers, as well as to protect themselves against cyber attacks.
U.S. federal agents plan to use the occasion to size up tech-savvy youngsters who could form the next generation of digital crime-fighters.
Or the next group of suspects...