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Fusion Thrusters For Space Travel

kgeiger writes "John J. Chapman, a physicist and electronics engineer at NASA's Langley Research Center, envisions a laser-pumped fusion drive. Chapman estimates the drive can produce thrust 40 times more efficiently than existing ion engines such as those on the Dawn mission now exploring the asteroid belt."

12 of 192 comments (clear)

  1. research! by k6mfw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Alrighty so I haven't RTFA but this is the kind of stuff NASA should be doing more. Hire ambitious smart people with grand ideas, give them resources and turn 'em loose! Probably much of what they do will amount to nothing but you just never know (a great concept may become reality).

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    mfwright@batnet.com
    1. Re:research! by youn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think if Nasa was only allowed to carry projects from start to finish... and not successive radical change in direction mid projects... lots more cool stuff could come out. The problem, every time a new administration comes out big buzz words are introduced to completely change the direction, forcing many times redevelopment of the wheel.

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      Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
    2. Re:research! by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Really? Please show me what advanced R&D do you see coming from private enterprise on their own?
      1) SpaceX's rockets? The engines were developed by NASA in the 90's, but squelced by 1996 CONgress.
      2) Perhaps SpaceX's tank's? Again development by NASA, but squelced by 2001 W/CONgress destruction of X-33.
      3) Inflatable space stations? Transhab that was crush by 1996 CONgress, but allowed into private enterprise by Clinton
      4) Laser Drilling? Crushed by 1996 CONgress, but allowed to go to Colorado Mines by Clinton.
      5) VASIMR? Crushed by 1996 CONgress, but allowed to go private by Clinton.

      The list goes on and on and on. NASA does a LOT of R&D, but it is CONgress and typically short-sighted pres (nixon and W being the worst 2) that destroy it. You will be hard pressed to find any ORIGINAL SPACE R&D by private enterprise that is NOT an off branch of something that NASA came up with and funded.

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    3. Re:research! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      1. Spacex's rockets were based on a concept engine called Fastrac, killed in 2001. Spacex have scaled up the thrust by a factor of four and the ISP from 260 seconds to 300.

      2. Spacex's aluminium-lithium friction stir welded tanks were developed by LockMart for the SLWT first flown by the space shuttle in 1998. X-33 used experimental composite tanks and ignored the lighter FSW technology because it wasn't "Space Age" enough. This is why X-33 failed.

      3. Transhab was not killed by the 1996 congress. Transhab didn't exist in 1996. Transhab was killed by House Resolution 1654 in 2000 to prevent NASA from even thinking about Mars. If NASA had called it an Orbhab instead of a Transhab then it wouldn't have been killed.

      4. Nope.

      5. VASIMR barely existed on paper in 1996. It didn't exist as a national program and there was nothing for congress to kill.

  2. Tanks by avandesande · · Score: 3, Funny

    How will the shark tanks work in space with zero Gs?

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    love is just extroverted narcissism
  3. It seems more fission than fusion by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 4, Informative

    The reaction is
    1H + 11B -> 12C -> 4He + 8Be -> 4He + 4He + 4He
    so there are more output nuclei than input.

    However, I suppose it is true that all of the energy is coming from fusion, as 12C -> 4He + 4He + 4He is exothermic. (The reverse reaction is an energy source for stars under some circumstances.)

    12C is normally stable, so for this reaction to go as stated the nucleus must be created in some suitable excited state.

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    Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    1. Re:It seems more fission than fusion by newcastlejon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When the proton hits the boron-11 nucleus they fuse giving an excited (that bit's important) carbon-12, which in very short order (sorry, the exact time escapes me) splits into a helium nucleus and a beryllium-8 nucleus, which in turn splits into another two helium nuclei. So what you have in effect is a fusion-fission reaction but the fission part isn't usually mentioned - something to do with OMG nuke! types, perhaps?

      However, I suppose it is true that all of the energy is coming from fusion, as 12C -> 4He + 4He + 4He is exothermic. (The reverse reaction is an energy source for stars under some circumstances.)

      Actually, the triple-alpha process, which produces carbon in some stars is closer to this:

      He + He -> Be

      Be + He -> C

      I expect that the probability of a 3-body collision between 3 helium nuclei is so vanishingly small as to be insignificant, but hopefully someone who knows this subject well can fill in that particular blank.

      As for why the carbon that gets produced doesn't immediately decay like the one made in a p+B11 fusion reactor, I couldn't say as IANANP (just an interested layman) but I imagine it's something to do with that business of being in an excited state I touched upon earlier.

      P.S. A dictionary isn't a good place to start learning about nuclear physics; try an encyclopaedia instead. In fact, here is a good article, which was the second result Google gave when I searched for p+B11. To address your issue with particles: yes, more atoms come out than go in, but the number of nucleons remains the same.

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      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
  4. It makes me sad by hamburgler007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I think about how much more the US could do if we didn't squander our money on bullshit

    1. Re:It makes me sad by catchblue22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I think about how much more the US could do if we didn't squander our money on bullshit

      The obsession with lowering taxes will imply that a larger percentage of national resources are funnelled into consumption. When a nation spends more on consumer goods, it will, in my opinion lead to a reduction in projects that are national in scale and for the public good. I think we have already seen this in the reductions both in NASA's budget, and in the general research budget. Most research is now carried out by private corporations, with the main aim of short term profit. The ironic thing is that the reduction in general research will probably harm the broad economy, reducing the potential profits of these same corporations.

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      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  5. Re:Fiscal Sanity? by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We spend the equivalent of a huge forest of money trees on USELESS aggression; bring those troops and ships home, destroy deployed equipment in place, sell it to the locals, or bring it home if practical, leave the military brought home employed for a strong standing defense, and (a) we'd be acting morally for the first time in decades and (b) the money spent on the standing army, now home, would go right back into our OWN economy, and (c) we'd have huge overall spending reductions we could apply to the debt and perhaps once again, someday, have money to spend for our actual benefit.

    Our budget problems are 100% solvable. All you need to do is get the cowards out of congress. Somehow.

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    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  6. Re:Nice Idea, but There Are Concerns by RsG · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's a myth.

    Thirty-forty years ago, optimistic predictions were for working fusion power plants circa the first decade of the new millennium. Realistic predictions were somewhat further away. And those optimistic predictions were made with the assumption that the intervening decades would see continual, government funded R&D into the subject (because no private enterprise is going to throw billions at something with a forty year payoff).

    The R&D funding was not received. Turns out governments don't like throwing billions at the long term anymore than businessmen do, to say nothing of the minor problem that science and engineering tend to get slashed every time there's a budget crisis (want to go back and count how many times that's happened in the past half century?) The prototypes we could have been building weren't built. Progress was slow, though thankfully not nonexistent.

    As a result, a decade after the optimists predicted the first fusion power station, we're only now building the testbed prototype. Interestingly, we're not nearly as far behind as most current pessimists like to think. Net-energy producing fusion will probably be seen as unattainable by some people right up until the point where it's attained.

    Want to know where the "fusion has been 10-20 years away fro 60 years" meme got going? Morons. Morons who don't get the idea that you can't sit around waiting for progress to happen. Morons who think that research is something that "just happens" and don't seem to realize that sometimes that vital, civilization advancing research requires a lot more money and patience than we as a culture are prepared to give. Morons who looked back at the rosy view of the future and didn't see the little disclaimer about how much work it would take to get there.

    Morons repeated this meme until it became accepted fact and a glib response, brought up every time there's a news story about fusion research. It's time to let this meme, this myth, die.

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    Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
  7. Point It at the Earth by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We should have these power collectors/transmitters in orbit around the Sun, pointed down at the Earth to collectors floating on the seas. Where they could electrolyze water, or any of a number of other ways to get the energy back to the land where it can be consumed. Emissions free, vastly more power than we can use for the foreseeable future.

    The beams would have to be only a few times the intensity of sunlight, but shine all day/night (courtesy of geosync relay satellites) over a few dozen square kilometers on each station. No danger from a beam missing the target, though extra protection added by laser interlocks back from the surface to space that drop both up and down beams when the down beam goes off the target.

    That system would require several $billion, perhaps several hundred $billion, investment. But at $0.01:KWh, and $100B is only 1KW:m^2 * 3intensity * 36Km^2 * 6stations * $0.01:KWh = 22.5 months payback time. That's better than 50% ROI, on hundreds of $billions. Plus the value of eliminating emissions, terrestrial fuel production and distribution, energy wars and corruption. And regaining the envy of the world.

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    make install -not war