The Patriot Act and the EU Cloud

ISoldat53 writes "Gordon Frazer, managing director of Microsoft UK said that the Patriot Act allows government access to data in its cloud services even in Europe. Though he said that 'customers would be informed wherever possible,' he could not provide a guarantee that they would be informed if a gagging order, injunction or U.S. National Security Letter permits it."

Comments

More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster

[Scareduck]

Just plain stupid for customers. No control over your data.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster

[Registered Coward v2]

Er, presumably if there were such a National Security Letter, housing it yourself wouldnt give you much choice in the matter either; you would be forced to turn over the data regardless.

This article is basically an excuse to rail at the cloud and at the US government, but it really doesnt reveal any new information.

Actually, TFA has a snippet that is interesting:

Frazer explained that, as Microsoft is a U.S.-headquartered company, it has to comply with local laws (the United States, as well as any other location where one of its subsidiary companies is based).

While the focus is on the US Patriot Act; that quote implies that cloud based data is essentially subject to any local law and that privacy laws don't protect someone if the law requires access outside of the jurisdiction covered by privacy laws. A local subsidiary would cough up the information, as required by law, not the one where the data may have originated and is covered by privacy laws.

Carried to an extreme, MS is saying that loud based computing renders privacy laws moot. It also means that presumably protect information could be accessed by any state that wishes to pass laws granting itself access (if a company has a subsidiary in that state).

While the US may be at the vanguard, the implications go far beyond there.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Which is of course utter nonsense, if the information of European citizens is being demanded by US authorities, that violates the stringent privacy laws in the EU. It comes down to whether or not Microsoft wants to do business in the EU. Handwaving about the cloud means nothing.

Re:More reasons why the Cloud is a disaster

[The Second Horseman]

Try getting a company like Google or Microsoft, when they're trying to sell you hosted services, to say anything other than "we comply with lawful requests for information from governments". Note that they don't just mean your government. They mean the government of any country, and if it's a country they do business in, they have to weigh your business against access to an entire market. Which do you think they'll choose? They may try to dodge by only hosting the information in some geographical locations, but that doesn't help much.

Government Agents

[jrumney]

If private US corporations can be used by the USA to extend its intelligence gathering reach like this, does that mean their employees can be treated as government agents by non-US law enforcement agencies? Could a privacy breach turn into an espionage case because of this? It'd certainly make me think twice about accepting a job for a US based company.

encryption. it's the only way "the cloud" is safe

[Anonymous Coward]

Who in their right mind would store their sensitive data in the cloud and not encrypt it locally first? That seems crazy. Patriot act or no, it's nuts.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[Seumas]

No, the US Patriot Act is making political geographical borders a useless invention. That you are across the ocean, with your own history, culture, laws, government, and values is of no consequence to us anymore.

leave the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

lets bail on this police state run by fascist idiots. leave before they won't let you. the businesses had the right idea going overseas. Microsoft should relocate to.

"The Cloud" = "Don't know where your data is"

[Sipper]

There are basically two meanings of "The Cloud":
      1) "You don't need to know where your data is"
      2) Rapid automatic server provisioning

The thing that's wrong about 1) above is that "The Cloud" is sold as "don't worry about the man behind the curtain." Being ignorant about where your data is actually stored doesn't mean that it's safe -- quite the opposite -- it means that there is elevated risks involved. Because laws change with location, not knowing where your data is means not knowing what laws are applicable.

That doesn't make it so

[frovingslosh]

What stupidity. If China passed a law that said that they had to be given access to all of the data in all of the computers in the United States, I doubt very much if people would be jumping through hoops to accommodate them. Similarly, the U.S. can claim that it has access to data stored in computers in Europe, but no one should take them seriously.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[vux984]

To be fair... its only because they can address the letter to microsoft, which is in its own juridiction.

All this means is that a multinational can't move part of its assets to europe and then have immunity to the us govt.

If MS wants immunity, it has to leave America.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[AHuxley]

If the US has a base, is friendly with a nation or your telco loops data via friend of the US or a country with a US base ....
Your data is now US data and has been for many years. The problem with the Patriot Act is you not just been watched anymore.
Think hard before you share too much data with anything US on a network.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[c0lo]

This: "GOVERNMENT — If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions."

Depends

[Roger W Moore]

Er, presumably if there were such a National Security Letter, housing it yourself wouldnt give you much choice in the matter either

Actually it would since my house is in Canada and I'd politely inform them that they'd need to talk to the Canadian government and, if they agree, have them make the request. Similarly in the EU US government demands are worthless. Canada and the EU (or at least the UK) have intelligence sharing treaties with the US so they can get access to the data but only if they ask and convince the local government first and it is in compliance with local law.

This is exactly as it should be. MS could end up in real legal trouble if the US government forces them to disclose data on their EU servers in contravention of EU privacy laws.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[c0lo]

Makes me sad the parent is rated Funny.

customers would be informed wherever possible

[superdave80]

if a gagging order, injunction or U.S. National Security Letter permits it.

Basically, no one will ever be informed.

Re:Politics making technology useless

[rtb61]

Patriot Act has nothing to do with it. Long ago foriegners were denied all rights by the US government, in fact in US police agencies are entitled to break all other countries laws and US law, even when those actions would be illegal in the US.

Making it public that M$ would have over private information from other countries once in it's cloud at any request of any US government agency, has pretty much crippled the M$ cloud and prevented from doing any work for any foreign government agency.

In fact that kind of delcaration put's into doubt the trust of any M$ software, when updates and patches are delivered direct from the US and US government agencies can legally corrupt those patches in direct contravention to local foreign laws, leaving M$ under the gun for criminal conspiracy to corrupt computer networks and the executives would be subject to extradition or the whole extradition system when tied to the US would collapse.

Re:USA-free Internet?

[_Sprocket_]

Ooh! Will this one have blackjack and hookers?

Re:Politics making technology useless

[Wyatt Earp]

Good luck with gay rights, gay marriage, Abortion rights at the national level with Ron Paul as President.