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Current Social Games Aren't Fun, Says MUD Co-Creator
Speaking at Gamerlab 2011 in Barcelona, MUD1 developer Richard Bartle had harsh words for the current state of social gaming:
"The big thing about social games that they don't like to tell you, is they're not actually social. Games played on social network sites is what we mean by social games ... These games are categorized more by the platform than that they are social themselves. The way they engage their players is not through interesting gameplay, it's done through extrinsic rewards — basically bribes. ... The difference is, social games rely on the extrinsic rewards so as to be compelling. People keep playing the game because it keeps giving them things — rewards. This has led to gamification. In the hands of designers, this has a great deal of potential, but unfortunately it's not in the hands of designers, it's in the hands of marketers."
It seems like the people making the games these days are focusing less on the actual game play and the "fun factor" and more on achievements and hooks too keep people coming back. It's the easy way out for them, they know a lot of people will keep forging on just to get that next achievement and post about it on their Facebook wall. I know it worked for me when I was younger with Pokemon! Even though the gameplay was incredibly boring and repetitive, I keep trudging through it just so I could get the next Pokemon. The only "social" factor of these games are all of the item requests and such that are posted to friends walls, making them feel like their left out if they're not playing, or even making them feel like they need to play because hey, "Tom needs to plant his seed and needs a hoe". These new social games are just a big scheme to get people to play so they can watch the ads, or spend extra money for in game purchases. Until people stop playing these games it's never going to change, they think we're eating their shit and loving it. I actually think a lot of people do. It's a casual kind of gaming for them, and it seems like the people who play a lot of these games don't get out much, so they stick with it because they're hanging with their buds too I guess.
The interaction even in such basic times created groups of friends on quests to raise their levels and use their imaginations. Games like Farmtown, Farmville, etc., are dull as hell.
Social Game should really be another way to say "lead generation marketing gaming". The goal is to get you to buy more fun stuff, by offering you lots of fun perky stuff to keep you interested. Very little of it requires any effort or quest-solving to attain, and it immediately unlocks the next slightly more expensive fun perky thing that you must have.
When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
I completely agree. There's nothing in modern social games that draws me. I used to love MUDs, and especially the more social ones: MUSHes and the like. Playing together and establishing some kind of community inside the game is awesome. Having a community outside the game see your achievements in some lame grind game is not so exciting.
Yet I do think it should be possible to do something much more interesting with social networks and games. For example, nearly my entire RPG group is now on Google+, and with its circles, you could have some online game and play it with that circle, without all your other contacts getting annoying messages about it. That's certainly something we intend to explore.
In the hands of designers, this has a great deal of potential, but unfortunately it's not in the hands of designers, it's in the hands of marketers.
Bartle is probably a little biased, but he is definitely right... about more than just gaming. The marketing department tends to be in control of to much. Marketing has a simple goal: make products more desirable to the target consumer. This is supposed to involve pre-design data, and post-design constructive criticism.
However, many companies let the marketing department control the entire design process. The accountants tend to have their way with the product as well. In the end, the consumers only get choices between poor-quality products with a shiny vernier. I have no data for the following statement, but personal observation is that this process has made a few people dumber as well...
Designers are important, not only because they aim to produce a creative and unique product, but because they find ways to challenge customers in one way or another. Believe it or not, surmounting challenges are what keep us coming back for more.
"Tom needs to plant his seed and needs a hoe".
I don't really understand what sewing has to do with prostitution.
"The body may heal, but the mind is not always so resilient." -- Deus Ex: Human Revolution
A) He isn't having fun in social games
B) He makes statements like " This has led to gamification. "
C) He also had no fun at the prom. He found it had led to dancification and kissification.
Gently reply
Solitaire games are still among the most widely played games on computers. I can't say they can be classified as "fun." They are particularly good at being a distraction, clearing the mind and passing time. Playing games is often used for those moments when such things are desired.
Some games are even the source of anger and frustration -- is that "fun"? I am quite sure a few people will answer "yes" but for most people, that's actually not the case.
For most people, they seek "reward" after a challenge. Having the reward is fun for people, but to road to getting there is quite often not fun.
So what is "fun"? I like riding my bicycle. Some games are genuinely fun to me... perhaps this weekend I will load up an old computer with Win98 and set up XWing vs Tie Fighter or something similar. THAT was a fun game. But fun for me and fun for others are different things.
This reminds me of my favorite social site, you are rewarded points based on what you say..
Or have them taken away
(Score: -1, Troll)
My question would rather be, what does planting my seed in some hoe have to do with sowing?
OK, so some designer says that a simple system of semi-addictive task/reward dependencies isn't "fun".
That's self-evidently not true by an objective measure. Lots of people play them, ergo, to many people it IS fun.
I don't think running on a treadmill (or any running, frankly; I *am* posting on slashot...) is "fun" either, but I'd expect that a significant number of runners would disagree with me.
It's more like he's complaining that the task/reward system is so dull and transparent that it is uninteresting. That may be true, I certainly don't find them fun myself. But for a good 6 years I played WoW intensively, which is only marginally more complex in essence (although a great deal more varied). I was having a lot of fun, although in retrospect I have trouble understanding why, even in my own personal context.
Arguing over what's objectively "fun" is like arguing which is "better", orange or blue.
-Styopa
They are not supposed to be fun, they are supposed to make money.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
It was mostly a lot of tintin clients running around attacking mobs below their level and never interacting. Until I discovered a item cloning bug (related to what I believe was a really slow sync on a HDD) on my favorite dikumud, I never had enough time to to do anything except gather gold for the "rent". The infinite diamonds allowed me to just sit around the inn and role-play, which was actually fun if a real person stopped by.
The platform may be social, but the games in practice quite often are not. Players perform an end run on the 'beg other players for X of Y material' mechanic by registering shill accounts to work for themselves, or applying themselves to vast lists of other players that they don't know, who end up merely pressing the occasional button for one another without pursuing contact beyond those mechanical benefits.
I don't know why you guys are complaining. Ads have the electrolytes your body craves.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I was recently cured of social games by the micro payment craze. A very nice tower defense game on an unnamed social network was completely hamstrung by the fact that to advance at a decent rate you would be charged about $2.50 for a upgrade gem which might work or might drop your tower level back multiple levels. Also after doing some basic math i found out they had an option to buy a new type of tower for $200. dollars no that's not a typo. Now don't get me wrong it was a great game that i would have purchased for 30- 40 dollars for a full version but to be constantly used as an ATM by devs was unacceptable and encouraged me to drop social gaming all together.
Slashdot "Achievements" are a tongue-in-cheek joke. They rolled out on April 1, and stuck around because, well, people liked them. And, unlike social games, people are actually communicating and forming relationships on Slashdot. A message board system by it's very nature has to be more social than those games; there is literally nothing else to it.
I'd wager that political articles see so much energy because everyone feels like they are qualified to participate, and there are multiple valid-yet-contradictory opinions. I mean, what is there to say about "Solar Impulse Airplane Makes Public Debut In Paris"? It's solar powered! It's some degree more efficient than the last airplane that attempted this! There are facts about it, and no one really cares to contest them. Very few people are qualified to hold an educated opinion about the solar impulse system, and, what's more, they recognize it.
Perhaps you missed the history behind some of these things on slashdot.
Achievements were an April Fools joke that got left in place.
Moderation has the utility of allowing filtering. And you can use elements like "friends", "tags", etc for further filtering, increasing/decreasing effective score - and thus what is displayed to you.
Don't like how people moderate? Suggest a better method. Don't like moderation as a concept? Ignore it.
Friend of a foe? er, what? I can't speak for others, but I barely use the "friend" or "foe" features of Slashdot at all.
Political articles get lots of comments and attention largely because there IS room for comment about them. Science articles? By definition, there aren't going to be a lot of people able to provide informed commentary on breaking science news. Would you rather more uninformed comments?