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The Most Dangerous Programming Mistakes

snydeq writes "Fatal Exception's Neil McAllister discusses the most dangerous programming mistakes, and what can be done to avoid them. 'Even more than input validation errors, this year's list is rife with application security blunders of all kinds. Some of them sound fairly esoteric, such as "inclusion of functionality from untrusted control sphere." But of all such errors, the highest-ranking one on the list is "missing authentication for critical function" — in other words, the attacker was able to gain access because there was no lock on the door to begin with,' McAllister writes. 'With the pace of Internet attacks accelerating, now is not the time to cut QA staff or skimp on testing and code review.'"

41 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. Better link by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you'd like to read what the mistakes *are*, instead of a fluff piece that amounts to "oh, they're so awful! And people make them all the time, too!", here's the actual original article: http://cwe.mitre.org/top25/index.html

    1. Re:Better link by frinkster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you'd like to read what the mistakes *are*, instead of a fluff piece that amounts to "oh, they're so awful! And people make them all the time, too!", here's the actual original article: http://cwe.mitre.org/top25/index.html

      Is one of the mistakes "Not being able to click on a link"? I would check myself, but I can't click on the link.

    2. Re:Better link by fnj · · Score: 2

      Slashdot is busted as usual. Cut and paste.

    3. Re:Better link by baKanale · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Switch back to the Classic Discussion System.

    4. Re:Better link by sorak · · Score: 2

      For me, the slashdot break also breaks the context menu. As far as I can tell, the only way to follow a link is to reply, quote parent, and copy and paste from parent's HTML.

    5. Re:Better link by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      I think they tried to fix the "clicking anywhere opens parent comment" bug by blocking you from clicking anywhere. Not the first time they broke slashdot this way. Expect things to go back to the old brokenness in about 2 weeks, I think that's how long it took them last time.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Better link by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Obviously, not all mitigations on the list apply to all situations. Here are some examples where they wouldn't apply so easily:

      Where possible, avoid implementing custom authentication routines and consider using authentication capabilities as provided by the surrounding framework, operating system, or environment.

      This can prove cost prohibitive when the authentication capabilities provided by the surrounding operating system are marketed for use only by privileged employees, not by the public. Consider the case of an operating system that charges per user account. (Microsoft calls this the "client access license" model.) One might be tempted to use or create an authentication and authorization library that runs independently of the operating system's own auth facility, so that one needs to buy a system user account for only the web server, not for each member of the public who creates a user account on the web site.

      For outbound authentication: store passwords, keys, and other credentials outside of the code in a strongly-protected, encrypted configuration file or database that is protected from access by all outsiders

      Say I encrypt the keys that a web server uses to communicate with other web services, such as the key used to communicate with a payment processor. Now how do I store the key to decrypt those keys?

      For inbound authentication: Rather than hard-code a default username and password, key, or other authentication credentials for first time logins, utilize a "first login" mode that requires the user to enter a unique strong password or key.

      So how do we prevent an attacker from attacking a system while it is still in "first login" mode?

      Clearly specify which data or resources are valuable enough that they should be protected by encryption.

      Firesheep shows that this includes users' passwords and cookies containing authenticated session tokens. But with StartSSL having suspended operations and Internet Explorer on Windows XP still not supporting Server Name Indication, how can hobbyist web developers get the certificate and dedicated IPv4 address needed to host an SSL site?

      If possible, create isolated accounts with limited privileges that are only used for a single task.

      Please see my comment above about the CAL pricing model.

      Generate a unique nonce for each form, place the nonce into the form, and verify the nonce upon receipt of the form.

      If you've ever seen errors about a "form key" on Slashdot, Slashdot is doing exactly this.

      Do not use the GET method for any request that triggers a state change.

      Is a hit counter a state change?

      Use a built-in path canonicalization function (such as realpath() in C)

      According to this page: "The realpath() function is not described in the C Standard." It's available only in UNIX, not in Windows.

      Avoid inconsistent messaging that might accidentally tip off an attacker about internal state, such as whether a username is valid or not.

      Does this mean don't bounce messages to nonexistent users but instead treat them as delivered and discard them? That would provide a bad user experience for people attempting to contact these users.

      Use code signing technologies such as Authenticode.

      How does a hobbyist afford the certificate for Authenticode?

      For all configuration files, executables, and libraries, make sure that they are only readable and writable by the software's administrator.

      Writable I agree with, but readable I'm not so sure. If configuration files are readable only by the adm

  2. why am I not surprised sql injection is first? by youn · · Score: 2

    Hopefully the increased use of frameworks that write sql will decrease that problem

    --
    Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
    1. Re:why am I not surprised sql injection is first? by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dear Web Developers,

      Stop using toy languages. A strongly typed language that only accepts type "SanitizedString" as an SQL function parameter will end this problem forever.

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:why am I not surprised sql injection is first? by Ant+P. · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dear Academic Language Elitists Who Have Never Used The Languages They Are Criticising:

      Slashdot is coping just fine with "only" Perl 5 and DBI. Wikipedia doesn't have a problem using PHP and PDO. Reddit serves a million users a day with Python code. Show us your code or kindly get bent.

    3. Re:why am I not surprised sql injection is first? by oursland · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because you can doesn't mean that everyone should.

      You cited a few shining examples of people doing the right thing. Unfortunately, those languages make it so damn easy to do the wrong thing and that is precisely the problem.

    4. Re:why am I not surprised sql injection is first? by mvdwege · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bull. 2 out of those three examples make it easy to do the right thing.

      Perl has DBI, which does parametrised queries very well, and in fact makes quoting a pain, because all the nice functions like binding variables to query results do not work well (if at all) with quoted queries. And if DBI is too low-level, there is always the DBIx::Class ORM.

      Python's DB-API 2.0 is the standard to do databases in Python, and it too makes parametrised queries a lot simpler than quoting. And on top of that you can use SQLAlchemy.

      I agree with PHP being bad. Sure it has parametrised query support in various libraries, but the default is still to use MySQL as backend and use the various mysql_yes_really_quote_it_correctly_this_time() functions. Given that until recently even the maintainers of the language didn't have clue as to how to do security right, PHP is by far the most unsuitable language to do secure web programming in.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  3. Those aren't "programming" mistakes... by ThosLives · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...Those are system design mistakes.

    A programming mistake is one where you meant to type x+1 and instead you write x-1. Missing something like authentication or checking is a requirements or design problem, not a programming problem.

    If software was a car, you wouldn't say it's a manufacturing problem if the car didn't have a place to install a lock - you'd say it's a design problem. It would only be a "programming" issue if it had a place for a lock but it was left uninstalled.

    (Yes, I don't consider "programming" to include the design aspects; I consider "programming" to mean "conversion of requirements into computer code." The errors about which this article talks are mostly requirements problems, not implementation problems.

    --
    "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    1. Re:Those aren't "programming" mistakes... by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You seem to be advocating a distinction of responsibility of knowledge where programmers should not need knowledge of design. I would dispute that.

      First, all you've done is replace "programmer" with "compiler." If you posit that there is no need for programmers to do anything more than convert a design specification to code, then all you've done is define programmers as transcoders operating on a higher-level formal langauge than current compilers already do. That seems ridiculous; you'd be able to replace "programmers" with "compilers" for this higher-level language ("Technical writing in English") your design spec is written in. At that point, your designers are doing nothing more than programming in a higher-level language...making them programmers again. Look at the trends in new and redeveloped languages to include declarative behaviors for evidence of this already happening; dataflow-driven and declaration-driven language features are getting a lot of attention.

      Second, if your programmers aren't expected to have or build knowledge of good design and design practices, then they won't be able to identify mistakes--especially critical mistakes such as the ones discussed in TFA. People are people, people make mistakes. Without other people or tools (created by people) there to catch some the mistakes, more of the mistakes slip past. And while it's perhaps easy to build a unit test suite from a design document, that unit test suite is going to be better at detecting flaws in the code, not in the design.

    2. Re:Those aren't "programming" mistakes... by DougReed · · Score: 2

      As the CTO of a small startup. My first programming mistake would be to hire someone who would build a car with no lock because the original drawing had no dot where the assumed lock would go. My old boss would love you. He thought 'programming' meant writing a thousand page Word document that got debated and revised over several months of meetings and finally coded by a 'clerk typist' with a degree in languages. Our department was disbanded because in a year, we did not manage to produce anything but 5,000 pages of MS Word. I got dinged on my review because the only thing we produced in that time was one program I wrote where the users told me what they wanted and I wrote it in a few days. He thought I was writing Word. When I showed it working... he hit the ceiling. The user's loved it.

  4. Re:overvalued derivatives weren't a programming er by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

    Only little people are capable of error, so it must have been a programming mistake.

  5. Summary of Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Java and C# are better than PHP" wrapped in buzzwords and it mentions "SQL Injection attacks" (yawn).

    The whole thing is insulting to read for everyone more competent than management. As usual.

    0/10

  6. Re:QA - Microsoft is really to blame. by countertrolling · · Score: 2

    That's how the legislators write law also.. Throw out anything, and let the courts sort it out.. a public works program for lawyers

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  7. More Testers / QA is needed and stop the overtime by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    More Testers / QA is needed and stop the overtime working 80+ hour weeks just leads to more errors and bugs.

    Also don't get me started on rush jobs that just become try to work around the bugs and not take the time to fix them.

  8. Headline reveals slashdot philosophy? by damn_registrars · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it's-probably-fine,-we'll-test-it-live

    Could describe every "upgrade" to slashdot that has happened since ... well probably ever.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  9. Therac-25 and nudie scanners by spoonist · · Score: 2

    The Therac-25 had some "Dangerous Programming Mistakes".

    I wonder if the nudie scanners have any similar mistakes.

  10. Did you try double right-click? by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    To work around Slashdot's brokenness, did you try double right-click, then open in new tab? It appears to work for me in Firefox 5.

    1. Re:Did you try double right-click? by cowboy76Spain · · Score: 2

      I got it.

      Double left click, right click, left click, triple right click, A, A, B, A, Up, Up, Up and I can see almost see slashdot as any other forum!

      --
      Why can't /. have a rich-text editor? Editing your own HTML is so XXth century.
    2. Re:Did you try double right-click? by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 3, Funny

      I got it.

      Double left click, right click, left click, triple right click, A, A, B, A, Up, Up, Up and I can see almost see slashdot as any other forum!

      It's pretty much the same command in Emacs.

  11. Re:Remember Y2K? It's the tools that need to impro by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

    No, I'm not saying programmers are lazy. It's just that there is always tension between getting a job done, and getting EVERY detail right.

    They ALSO are not always as knowledgeable as they should be. How many programmers know that in 1752, when the Julian calendar was replaced by the Gregorian calendar, September 2 was followed by September 14? How many programmers care? Why should they? Yet this arcane bit of knowledge could make a difference in some software that deals with antiquities.

    Just as there are arcane bits of knowledge needed to make perfectly precise date calculations, the same is true of security considerations. Programmers should HAVE TO KNOW every possible arcane exploit in order to write good code. They framework/language should take care of this.

  12. Table-valued parameters; query by example by tepples · · Score: 2

    pretty much all frameworks today have an easy and built in way to prevent sql injection.

    True, parameterized queries work in most cases. But I've found a few places where they're not ideal, and I wrote a bit of framework to implement other ways to pass strings to SQL safely.

    A lot of SQL APIs don't support parameterizing a query that includes a table-valued parameter, such as the anonymous single-column table on the right side of an IN expression (e.g. username IN ('bluebear', 'chief', 'filbert')). So I wrote and tested a function mysqli_escape_list($connection, $array) to escape each item in an array and then format it as such a table expression, and then I use this function every time I need a variable number of literals on the right side of IN or VALUES. A web site called bobby-tables.com strongly recommends against this method, instead preferring code that constructs a string of question marks, a string of types, and an array of reference variables in parallel and then calling $stmt->bind_param() through call_user_func_array(). This appears hairier than the method that I use.

    A lot of database search user interfaces are based on the general concept of query by example: present a form representing a blank record to the user, then find records whose values match the fields that the user specified and ignore fields that the user left blank. There are two ways to implement this search in SQL. One is to include two separate parameters in the query for each field (e.g. "name", "ignore name", "town", "ignore town"). The other is to generate a WHERE expression and make sure to escape it properly. The first way is good when all fields are known up front; the second way is probably needed when the list of fields will expand in the future.

    1. Re:Table-valued parameters; query by example by Sl0vi · · Score: 2

      Funny that Microsoft is way ahead of php and mysql on this area. .Net allows you to use parameters in reqular sql queries. Just add parameters to the command object as your are building your query. You never have an excuse not to use parameterized queries.

    2. Re:Table-valued parameters; query by example by mvdwege · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In Perl this is easy. Let's say that @args holds your argument list. Then it goes like this:

      my $query = "select * from table where column in (";

      # Use $#args to get the index value of the last member of the array @args. This gives us a loop that's one iteration shorter than the lenght of the argument list.

      for (1..$#args) { $query .= ' ?, '}

      $query .= '? )';

      my $sth = $dbh->prepare($query);

      $sth->execute(@args);

      # Bind result columns with $sth->bind_col

      while ($sth->fetch) {

      # Do something with the results.

      }

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  13. Missing a Big One by Salamander · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Mitre list does include "Use of a Broken or Risky Cryptographic Algorithm" but in my experience that's far less common than improper use of a perfectly good algorithm. Many algorithms and modes have known weaknesses that require specific generation/handling of keys and initialization vectors to maintain good security. Most algorithms and modes that are secure against unauthorized *reading* of data still require an extra MAC step to prevent unauthorized *modification* of that data (including targeted bit-flips). Developers often take shortcuts in these areas because doing all of "the right things" adds a lot of extra complexity and can absolutely kill performance. Look at recent events involving Dropbox and Jungledisk for examples. I don't think the Mitre list adequately conveys that cryptographic security requires not just good low-level algorithms like AES or Blowfish but also good higher-level (usually domain-specific) algorithms governing how the low-level algorithms and their inputs are used.

    --
    Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
  14. What kind of mistakes they are by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Informative

    Those are system design mistakes.

    While TFS and TFA call them "programming" mistakes, the actual source refers to them as the "Top 25 Most Dangerous Software Errors".

    A programming mistake is one where you meant to type x+1 and instead you write x-1.

    No, that's a typographical error, not a programming mistake.

    A programming mistake is when you incorrectly analyze the requirements and think you need to type x-1 to correctly implement them when in fact you need to type x+1.

    But either one results in a "software error"; the list and the original source are fine, the fluff piece in between the original source and Slashdot (and, consequently, the Slashdot summary) is the only potential problem here.

    If software was a car, you wouldn't say it's a manufacturing problem if the car didn't have a place to install a lock - you'd say it's a design problem. It would only be a "programming" issue if it had a place for a lock but it was left uninstalled.

    While its fun to construct ways to point the finger somewhere else in an organization, or to pedantically categorize errors in to narrow boxes, what I'd say is that its a failure of each and every person who had sufficient contact with the product that they should have seen the relevant facts, and sufficient technical skill that they should have recognized the error, and who either did not recognize the error or who did recognize the error but did not take action to have it corrected [whether that was implementing a fix or providing notice up the line]. Plus all the people responsible for the process that produced the error.

    And most of the errors on the list are things that, whether or not they should be explicitly foreseen in requirements, programmers are positioned to recognize and ought to be taking steps to prevent. Programming isn't narrowly constrained assembly-line work, at least in any organization that expects to produce quality software.

    1. Re:What kind of mistakes they are by cpricejones · · Score: 2

      Another type of mistake or error that should be considered is the attempt to program or write code for something at all. I remember watching a lecture about this topic at some point and I cannot find the link anymore. The general message was that no programs are bug-free, and in some circumstances it's unethical to even attempt to program for certain devices because undetected coding errors could end up killing many people. An example would be an automated missile defense system in which someone out there has to write code for the system. Think about the bug testing for a system that fires missiles at other missiles. (Apologies if this is a tad offtopic.)

  15. Re:No, it really won't. by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    how do you generate a SanitizedString?

    Via the object constructor.

    SanitizedString s = UserInput; or doSQL(SanitizedString(UserInput));

    If you allow implicit constructors then this: SQLfunc(UserInput); will pass a secretly sanitized version of the string to the SQL function.

    Point is: If you stick to using the provided SQL library then it's impossible to pass unsanitized strings to it, the program won't even compile. This sort of thing should really be the default by now except language designers are too busy figuring out ways to let programming noobs multiply strings by fractions.

    --
    No sig today...
  16. Re:QA - Microsoft is really to blame. by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Microsoft's Visual C++ compiler will throw a huge number of warnings for things like strcpy, telling you to use strncpy_s or something like that.

    You shouldn't even be using strcpy(). std::string has been around for more than ten years now.

    Similarly arrays: Don't use them, use std::vector instead. Visual C++ vector even does range checking by default so this throws an exception instead of corrupting memory:

    std::vector foo(10);
    foo[11] = 123; // Will throw an exception in VC++...

    A few basic changes in programming style can make C++ as safe as Java (but with none of the drawbacks). If you're still writing C code with your C++ compiler you're Doing It Wrong.

    --
    No sig today...
  17. Re:In C++: by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    My compiler warns me about this if I forget...

    --
    No sig today...
  18. The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by ka9dgx · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Using a system where the program has to be trusted to do its job correctly is the bigger mistake. When you hand your car keys to a valet, you don't also give him power of attorney to sell your house, liquidate your stocks, savings, etc... but every operating system out there does something like that when you tell it to run a program. The program you run can do anything you are authorized to do. The default assumption is that it should have permission to do anything, no matter how stupid, dangerous, or downright evil.

    This practice needs to end, about 10 years ago it should have ended... and we'll probably have to wait 10 more years because it's so freaking hard to get this idea across, nobody seems to be ready for it yet, by the way things seem to be going.

    A user should be able to decide exactly which and how much of the resources they are authorized to use will be allowed to be accessed by a program they choose to run. If you want to run a program with read/write access to /sandbox, and the ability to read from the internet using a filtered http driver (one that doesn't allow puts, for example), you should be able to do so, without having to do any fancy footwork.

    If put in to place, this type of system, which explicitly states what access things get, make it almost trivial to never get a virus or worm ever again. It's time to stop trusting programs, and only have to trust the hardware and OS to enforce our wishes.

    I impatiently await the arrival of capability based security.

    1. Re:The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by Sl0vi · · Score: 2

      Android sort of does this. Applications have to request the permissions they need at install time and the user has to grant them.

    2. Re:The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by Seyedkevin · · Score: 2

      In UNIX operating systems it's common practice to use separate user accounts for daemons and to not run anything as root. Isn't that enough to do what is being asked? In addition, we've PAM, SELinux, PaX, and more that's capable of locking down the system beyond filesystem permissions and user accounts.

      These systems probably aren't configured by home users at all, but it's practically mandatory in enterprise.

    3. Re:The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by benjymouse · · Score: 2

      Parent is completely right. Windows registry is one of the biggest examples of this problem, but even on Linux any program can modify nearly any other file of any other program the user has access to.

      What? The Windows registry is securable per key - as in each key has its own (but usually inherited from its container) ACL. To have the equivalent in Linux where most configuration is kept in text files you would have to be able to assign an ACL to each line of the file. The Windows registry also supports mandatory integrity control (MIC) which does not allow a lower-integrity process to write to a higher-integrity key even if the user account it runs under formally has write-permission.

      It sound like you believe that you can only be granted access to the registry on a full-registry or hive-level only. If so, you are mistaken. It goes as granular as you want it to. And this level of control is also being used by the operating system, utilities and most 3rd party software (although the latter type can usually ignore it as long as values are stored in the user-private hive - HKCU).

      --
      Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
    4. Re:The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by benjymouse · · Score: 2

      Even Windows could support it, with current apps, but then Microsoft wouldn't be able to use it to push Office 2020.

      Ahem. Windows does support "capabilities". They are called privileges in Windows. Unlike in Linux/Unix where you need to elevate to the all-powerful root, Windows actually allows delegation of privileges, such as shutting down/restarting, back up, change system time, change timezone etc.

      There was actually a push to create a POSIX standard for "capabilities". Unfortunately it was abandoned/retracted. Still, Linux does actually support a number of "Linux Capabilities" - but they are woefully underused. Theoretically they should allow programs such as ping to *not* be of the dangerous setuid root variety, but as it stands I don't think that even a single system utility actually use/respect Linux capabilities. Windows is way ahead here.

      --
      Reading slashdot one-liner: (irm http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot).rdf.item | fl title,desc*
    5. Re:The unmentioned BIGGER mistake... by ka9dgx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is unfortunate that it's necessary to try to overload an existing term with a new, slightly different definition, but that's what has happened here.

      Capabilities in a capability based system (cabsec for short) are fine grained access rights to things like single files, a directory, etc. They are explicitly granted at run time to a process, they are not persistent.

      This is in contrast to the Access Control List permissions of VAX/VMS, inherited by Windows, and the User/Group/World permissons of Unix/Linux, both of which are geared towards restricting the rights of a user, and are generally persistent.

      For example, if you give a process write access to a log file, and I/O access to the internet, and 1% of total cpu use....it could watch something on the net, and log the results. It could not access anything other than the log file, no matter what... this means a buffer overflow bug, or any other fault could not cause data to leak from the system.

      In a permissions/ACL based system, the administrator decides the rights of users, and the programs they run, without distinction

      With cabsec capabilities, the user decides which of their rights they wish to delegate to a process or program. This frees the user from the need to trust a given program with all of their rights. This also frees the system administrator from having to set up extra accounts with limited permission for each new service or daemon that needs to be run.

      I see cabsec as a very useful extension to the existing user permissions systems. Combined you get the best of both worlds.

  19. Re:QA - Microsoft is really to blame. by c++0xFF · · Score: 2

    You left out some details about bounds checking that deserve some notice:

    According the the C++ Standard, std::vector::operator[] does not do bounds checking -- if you want an exception to be thrown, use std::vector::at(). As an aside, I which they would have switched which one does checking and which one doesn't, but it is the way it is.

    Visual C++ has an extension to do bounds checking on operator[]. Compile with _SECURE_SCL 1, which is the default. When an access goes out of bounds, the program will terminate. You can set another macro if you want an exception to be thrown, however.

    I' think that Visual C++'s behavior is completely acceptable according to the standard (which only requires undefined behavior). However, it makes some C++ programmers uneasy because it's adding overhead to a very common operation that will often be found in inner loops (and with the safe option readily available). Hopefully the compiler can eliminate most of the checks by detecting loop bounds or somesuch.

    Another detail about vectors: I've repeatedly heard that you can't use vectors when interfacing with C functions, as they operate on normal arrays. This isn't the case: just pass in the address of the first element (&vect[0]). Yes, this behavior is backed by the standard. The only caveat I'm aware of is that you have to be careful when doing anything to the vector that would cause it to move around in memory (such as call push_back() when it's already full) -- but that's already true of C arrays created with malloc().

    However, there is one good reason to use C arrays in C++: when you need a small array allocated on the stack. As of C++0x, however, you should be using std::array for this purpose instead. The only other factor to consider are VLAs, which aren't part of standard C++ and I don't think Visual C++ supports them anyway.