Creating a Mac OS X 10.7 Lion Bootable Flash Drive

WankerWeasel writes "With the release of Mac OS X 10.7 Lion this month, Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD and is making 10.7 Lion available only through the App Store. This guide provides quick instructions on how to use the OS X 10.7 Lion installer to create a bootable flash drive (instructions for making a bootable DVD are also included on the blog)."

Comments

So how do you install a new hard drive?

[wbhauck]

Does Apple provide a way to replace a hard drive? Without access to a booted system you can't download anything. Unless they want you to bring in your machine ...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Apple provide a way to replace a hard drive? Without access to a booted system you can't download anything.

Unless they want you to bring in your machine ...

Apple computers have EFI, meaning you could possibly download Lion without being booted.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yes, the same way every other OEM provides a way. Either open up the case in the case of a desktop or unscrew and open up the hatch for the hard drive bay on the laptop. It's extremely easy.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[blueg3]

They provide a system recovery disk or flash drive with the computer.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only that, if you're the technically-inclined sort who would be replacing a hard drive yourself rather than taking it in to the shop, you can just as easily boot your machine from an external (FW/USB/Thunderbolt) drive with OS X installed on it, and use that to launch the installer. I have an external with an installation of OS X and assorted utilities and tools (diagnostic/repair) that I use on a regular basis to maintain and fix Macs. It's like a behemoth emergency boot disk, in that it could feasibly run as the primary OS if need be (albeit slowly due to I/O rates) until the internal drive is up and running.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Culture20]

I presume you're referring to the new magic hardware DRM that Apple uses for their HDDs? They got tired of people replacing iMac HDDs themselves and made a HDD version of their patented screw. I can't wait until only Apple Mice and Keyboards will have drivers.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Yeah, I mean you have to buy yourself a 4 dollar screwdriver to unscrew it. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if that's a Whoooosh or a troll. I'm guessing the latter.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[jd2112]

Yeah, I mean you have to buy yourself a 4 dollar screwdriver to unscrew it. OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

Plus $25 (just a guess, too lazy to look it up) for overnight shipping. Waiting 5-7 days for a screwdriver isn't an option when you have a crashed hard drive.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never had to replace the hard drive on an iMac...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[ActionDesignStudios]

Then buy one from a local hardware store?

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[HogGeek]

or drive to your local home depot...

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100087664/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Culture20]

I believe you misunderstood me. The new HDDs are _like_ the new screws. New Apple HDDs don't use the new screws (that I know of), but they do use proprietary firmware and hardware that makes thermal sensors on the Mobo go crazy if the new firmware isn't present. So you have to buy only Apple HDDs (which have in recent history been nothing more than SATA drives that cost twice to three times as much; now at least there's a reason for the increased cost, albeit a bad reason). They'll do it with RAM, keyboards, mice, graphics cards, etc. soon enough.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Lunix Nutcase]

And yet I've swapped out drives in my girlfriend's Mac Book Air with a Intel SSD and it worked just fine with the hardware and thermal sensors. And I'm not the only one who has done this with no issues. So, no, you don't need to buy Apple HDDs or whatever nonsense you are spewing.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Lunix Nutcase]

Plus $25 (just a guess, too lazy to look it up) for overnight shipping. Waiting 5-7 days for a screwdriver isn't an option when you have a crashed hard drive.

Only if you're an idiot. The point of the example was to show that the screwdriver you need is just a couple of bucks.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[SleepyHappyDoc]

You don't. The new iMacs have a non-standard hard drive that must be replaced by an Apple technician.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Culture20 is talking about the new iMacs only (so far).

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/12/apple-restricts-hard-drive-replacements-on-new-imacs/

Try to keep up before falsely accusing others of spewing nonsense.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Culture20]

You've obviously never had to replace the hard drive on an iMac...

The white ones suck due to the heat shielding, but the silver ones are no worse than a laptop GFX card replacement. Still, worse than just popping open a hatch and replacing a drive.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Culture20]

So, no, you don't need to buy Apple HDDs or whatever nonsense you are spewing.

Please tell that to angry iMac Fans:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3053942?start=0&tstart=0
http://blog.macsales.com/10146-apple-further-restricts-upgrade-options-on-new-imacs
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/05/12/apple-restricts-hard-drive-replacements-on-new-imacs/

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

You should have one already, if you're a serious geek. Why wait until you need to replace a component?

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[PopeRatzo]

Think about that for a little while...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Moryath]

It's the Macbook line that are absolutely fucking stupid to try to replace a hard drive on.

I mean seriously. I have to take the entire fucking clamshell off to get to the drive? Fuck you, Apple. Even HP has learned their lesson about doing something so annoying, the only company other than Apple still doing it is Sony.

Do you REALLY want to be known as making stuff just as crappy as Sony, Apple?

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is SSDs, some older sandforce devices liked to report drive lifetime on the SMART temperature values, for some odd reason. Server boards tended to hate that and beep a lot, as the temp would read 255C.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Culture20]

Yeah, I would have loved it if Apple had used some of their leftover Xserve stock and made the new iMac HDDs user serviceable (and cooler) by putting them in Xserve style drive trays (preferably "lockable" with a kensington lock; they still haven't figured out how to lock the RAM). Instead, they went the opposite route.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the screw you are referring to (admittedly too lazy to check), or at least a very odd screw Apple has been using lately, is so old the patent has actually ran out. It is obscure though, with only a few places to buy the required tool.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

My research shows that you have to merely buy from the same manufacturer as the previous HDD and not only from Apple. It sounds more alarmist though if you use the "only Apple HDDs" rant.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

Um no they just have to be a newer HDD from the same manufacturer. It it was a Seagate, you replace it with another Seagate. If it was a WD, replace it with another WD. The Internet tells you exact what will and won't work.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[guruevi]

And yet many have replaced their hard drives (yours truly included) with SSD's or other gear and had no problems.

First of all, Apple doesn't "block" you from using other hard drives nor do they use any specific firmware. The only thing that happens is that your fans may spin a bit harder (and they're very quiet to begin with) and that the optional Apple Hardware Test may fail on 1 test reporting a bad temperature sensor.

The issue seems to be (and you can read this in several other forums and blogs as well) is in the way that some hard disk manufacturers report back temperature to the system. It appears that the hard drives Apple uses report back temperature using the spare wiring in SATA cables. So if you get the same brand and model hard drive (not necessarily capacity), people don't have any issues. Also certain SSD's don't seem to give any issues. The main problem is that the industry hasn't yet standardized how to report data using these extra wiring and some manufacturers go ahead and implement it however they want.

There is also a fix for it as well (short the 2 wires) and somebody developed a simple temperature chip that replicates the functionality found on these new hard drives for older/other hard drives.

If somebody swaps out their hard drive and the iMac doesn't work anymore, that would be an issue with how they handled the 'repair' (most likely they didn't correctly put it back together), not Apple blocking their upgrade abilities or inhibiting their dexterity.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

My research shows that you have to merely buy from the same manufacturer as the previous HDD and not only from Apple. It sounds more alarmist though if you use the "only Apple HDDs" rant.

OK, provide a link to where one of these new-fangled drives can be purchased, then.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

So far I have only found them on obscure sites like Amazon (must be a South American company), Newegg (sounds like a hippie cult to me), and BestBuy (they are full of themselves with that name). Of course I could show you how to find them using this thing called the Interweb but it's much harder than people think. I mean it took me all of 15 seconds to find them.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the Macbook line that are absolutely fucking stupid to try to replace a hard drive on.

I mean seriously. I have to take the entire fucking clamshell off to get to the drive? Fuck you, Apple. Even HP has learned their lesson about doing something so annoying, the only company other than Apple still doing it is Sony.

I'm having a difficult time connecting this rant to the hardware. It's pretty simple, remove eight screws and the entire bottom plate pops off, then you just remove & replace the drive. Maybe you are thinking of past models? The current "unibody" MacBook line (whether plastic or aluminum) design has easy access to RAM and the HDD, if you ask me.

Do you REALLY want to be known as making stuff just as crappy as Sony, Apple?

Let me let you in on a little secret about how the real world works: Serviceability is not the top design priority, ever. For any of these companies. Goal #1a is optimizing production line costs. Goal #1b is improving reliability so that once it rolls off the production line, it never comes back for any reason. Once it does come back, they've probably already lost money, so they tend to obsess about that much more than making it easier to fix when it does come back.

Rant and rave and call the resulting products "crappy" all you want; they're not going to put your ideas about what makes a computer design good in front of theirs. Theirs have the benefit of making them more money. And despite what you say, it doesn't really hurt their rep at all because most people don't want to open the case.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is one of the problems with owning a Mac. Everyone wants to see them fall.

So when one site states (through a mistake of their own making) that you cannot replace an iMac's hard drive with anything but an Apple-supplied drive, it goes viral, everyone who doesn't own a Mac (and some Mac users) want to believe it SO DAMNED HARD that it becomes repeated as truth, modified, passed on, and changed into various forms of APPLE ARE DOING THIS INSANE THING OMG.

Hint as to the truth: I replaced my brand new two week old 27" iMac's 1TB WD hard drive with a 3TB Seagate, and it didn't make the thermal sensors go crazy, it didn't refuse to boot, it didn't run at half speed, and it certainly didn't send DRM monkeys flying to Apple to report me. I closed up the iMac, re-installed the OS, and went on with my business as normal... then I had just about every Mac owner who hadn't done it themselves ask how I got around Apple's HD restrictions.

Lies last a long time when they're popular.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

So, no, you don't need to buy Apple HDDs or whatever nonsense you are spewing.

Please tell that to angry iMac Fans:

Yeah, because "angry iMac Fans" have never been wrong before.

BTW, the claim "you have to buy only Apple HDDs" is already wrong, and that is not what people actually complain about, so I'm not even going to waste more time with you troll.

http://forum.hardmac.com/index.php?s=c4ee13da3fefe1394852a4b8fa883faf&showtopic=10324&st=0&p=18910&#entry18910
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/13/hdd-fan-control-software-addresses-imac-hard-drive-replacement-i/
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1183176

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[CongealedSalad]

It's just a T6 torx. Any self respecting Geek has a full set of torx drivers.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Macrat]

Um no they just have to be a newer HDD from the same manufacturer. It it was a Seagate, you replace it with another Seagate. If it was a WD, replace it with another WD. The Internet tells you exact what will and won't work.

This is not correct. Manufacturers have been making modified versions of their hard drives that first started appearing in the 2011 model iMacs. They are not the standard drives the manufacturers sell to the rest of the world.

Other World Computing has the full details in their blog posting.

http://blog.macsales.com/10206-further-explained-apples-imac-2011-model-hard-drive-restrictions

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[stewbacca]

I was wondering too. The current unibody Macbooks (white or the aluminum one I'm typing on that they only made for a few months) take about 5 minutes to swap out the drives. Even then, how often do you have to replace a hard drive? When I do, it's usually time for a new computer anyway.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, no, you're wrong.

The latest iMacs use a proprietary drive firmware that fires the drive thermal information down the GPIO pin present in the 15-pin SATA power connector.

This let Apple use a single cable to read the drive temperature, rather then using the proprietary service port cables that hooked into the jumper block on the SATA drive as previous iMacs did. I'm not saying that this is a good or bad thing. I'm simply saying that you're wrong. Replacing a Seagate (Apple firmware) with another Seagate (Seagate firmware) will cause the system SMC to "freak out" since it can't read the disk drive temperature, and rev the chassis exhaust fans to 100%.

-AC

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[stewbacca]

This is why I hate anti-apple people. Nothing in your post is true. You can't buy an "apple HDD", so therefore they aren't 2-3x as much. You can, however, buy any replacement drive you like, or go to an Apple store and pay a little more for the same thing you can buy at Fry's.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Osgeld]

since apple invented the cloud you don't need a hard disk anymore

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[PReDiToR]

I had cause to replace a seatbelt socket on a Ford a few months back.

Imagine my annoyance when I discovered it needed a T-45 and I only had up to T-30.

This afternoon I had cause to attempt a service on an espresso machine. It had security screws on two of eight in the baseplate, which I have a bit for. The problem came when I tried to insert the bit, surrounded by the holder into the small recess.

I will just go out and buy another screwdriver. A £1 screwdriver is cheaper than a £50 shop repair.

I have a huge collection of Torx bits from changing the cases on mobile phones. Those lovely people in China always seem to include a toolkit with the shells.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh huh.... did you even bother to read the link you posted? Its for the 2009 models... this is 2011...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

Wow. Another 15 seconds says that there is no real issues and that was just a bunch of BS.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

According to this forum, it was a bunch of BS and that many of the users were able to replace their HDDs without issue.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[UnknowingFool]

Not according to this forum, the rumor was started by OWC and never retracted. According to some of the users, they were able to install a new HDD.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh..... sounds like many Mac users about any non-Mac computer. They want them to have every possible problem and short coming that they will make things up randomly to make it seem like only Apple could ever do anything good. They will claim any non-Apple laptop can't have more then 3 hours of battery life, fall apart if even gently nudged, become loaded with "virus" when they go online (even when its false), blue screen every 15 minutes, ect...

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm GUESSING...

After replacing the hard drive you would install Snow Leopard using your recovery disc then install Lion using the app store.

If you bought you Mac after the release Lion you'd get a recovery disc with Lion on it.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[LoganDzwon]

Usually, you upgrade a Mac the same way you upgrade your car.

Either you watch to much Fast and Furious, have the right tools, know what your doing (atlest you sort-of think you do,) and you don't mind making a Frankenstein with no resale value.

OR

You sell yours on Creig's list and buy another one

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[LoganDzwon]

Your a wrong. The newer iMac use a newer sata STANDARD which has a thermal sensor built-in. You can use any drive with one built-in, or get an adapter.

Also, Apple doesn't sell internal HDs at retail.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[LoganDzwon]

It's a standard. Newer hard drives all have that sensor built-in.

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Wovel]

Your first thread is someone asking a question that you state as a fact and no one ever actually answers it. What was the point?

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[Wovel]

OWC is the only place that has ever claimed this and every site claiming it only sites them as a source. There are already 5 people in this thread (including me) that have actually changed out hdds in new iMacs without incident. At least read the damn thread you are responding to and stop trying to use the desperate justifications of someone who can't admit their mistake as "evidence".

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[DJ Particle]

Actually, in the newest line of MacBooks and iMacs, they tied the thermal sensors to the hard drive via an additional connection to the hard drive, so yeah the drives in those Macs *are* proprietary now :(

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[DJ Particle]

Seriously? If so then cool!

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[DJ Particle]

EDIT: Apparently someone now makes adapters that deals with this issue, and the sensors are now a standard....

Re:So how do you install a new hard drive?

[skribble]

You obviously haven't replaced a mac hard drive in the last five years. There is door on the back. open it! The HD replacement on my MBP was the easiest HD replacement I've ever had.

Too fast...

[DominoCo]

Probably I will switch to PC because they made a cr.ppy Final Cut Pro X.

Re:Too fast...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or just stick with the version you have until you find a suitable alternative, that is if you really do use Final Cut Pro and are not just a troll, or are just an idiot who throws the baby out with the bathwater.

Re:Too fast...

[stewbacca]

Most people switch OSes because the OS sucks, not because one app for the OS sucks.

Re:Too fast...

[dabooda]

For some people the only reason they use a particular OS is because the app they want to use only runs on that OS. Once that app becomes useless/annoying to them then there's nothing stopping going back to the OS they want to use.

Already have a bootable USB driver for MacOS

[jedidiah]

I expect the stumbling block here is creating some sort of normal looking install media for MacOS Lion.

Once you've got that, it's actually pretty simple to target any USB storage device. Just install it like you would a normal disk. Pretty simple stuff.

Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm kind of tired of all this wanking about how apple is evil because you have to download it from the app store, can't do a clean install, etc. The download contains a bootable image, burn it to a cd just as you would with any Linux Distro and clean install it on your target machine. If your target machine happens to have a blank HD (Hackintosh) it will still work. If you don't have 10.6 and app store running on your target machine, then you could download it on someone else's. If you don't want an apple id, are on AOL dialup, etc. you could still get it in person at an apple store the old fashioned way. If you live in an igloo and hunt sea lions, then you just might be SOL. In that case, I will gladly trade you my lion for some steaks.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[boristhespider]

Or perhaps you don't live anywhere near an Apple store -- you do realise that there are countries in the world with only one or two, or even none whatsoever? And that some of those are actually big Apple markets? Like Scandinavia where every monkey and his uncle has an iPhone but there are basically no Apple stores? And perhaps you have capped broadband, with a 4gig download taking a massive chunk out of the monthly limit? Perhaps you both live in a country without an Apple store *and* have capped broadband or, horror of horrors, dialup internet?

It wouldn't take much for Apple to have just released this the normal way in addition to the Mac App Store. But no, they went about it this way, intentionally alienating a section of their market. Not a very large or profitable section, mind, which is why they don't give a shit. Likewise with ditching Rosetta.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[Anonymous Coward]

APP STORE, not apple store

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[boristhespider]

From the original post: "If you don't want an apple id, are on AOL dialup, etc. you could still get it in person at an apple store the old fashioned way."

Fuck's sake. Learn to read. And if you assumed I was just talking about the App store, what part of "And perhaps you have capped broadband, with a 4gig download taking a massive chunk out of the monthly limit?" seems confusing?

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[stewbacca]

Perhaps their policy in places like Scandinavia and Australia will be different based on those regions strict bandwidth policies. Apple goes out of their way pretty well for other markets (just look at their localization of the OS, for example), and aren't as typically ego-centric-American as most US companies seem to be, in my opinion.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[smash]

Sounds like it was a dumb idea to buy a computer that has no local support?

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[boristhespider]

If I remember I'll get back to you about that. There are Apple resellers here (in Norway) and if Apple are releasing any physical media it would go to them. But the internet company I'm with offer uncapped broadband, so it might be in Norway, at least, Apple assume people will be able to download without killing their bandwidth allowance.

Re:Tired of all of the wanking about Lion

[boristhespider]

No, not really. There's an online presence, technical support, and resellers who offer repair services. Ultimately I've no doubt those resellers will have Lion images and anyone running into any of these issues can just go in and have it put on their computer. (That's pretty much what I found in South Africa, which also has no Apple stores.)

Leader, not a follower

[MonsterTrimble]

Linux has had this option for ages. How often does Apple play catch up with the OSS community?

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Anonymous Coward]

Knocking someone for a feature they didn't think of first. Oh! The originality.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Globe199]

Apple just invented this option. Linux never had it. Apple invented it because I saw in an Apple commercial that it's a cool new feature that they just invented.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Duradin]

So when Linux gets usability for "normal" people can we point out that Apple has had that for ages? (Although waiting until the heat death of the universe for that to happen will take awhile so I better make note of this on something rather durable.)

Re:Leader, not a follower

[bmo]

>So when Linux gets usability for "normal" people

OH THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN.

Let me tell you about Uncle Joe.

Uncle Joe really isn't my uncle. We just call him that. He's a greenhorn from The Old Country - Madeira. He's a machinist. His formal education only went to the 8'th grade in Madeira.

About 4 years ago he asked me about Linux. I said "sure, but you gotta understand that it's different" and I installed Ubuntu Dapper. After receiving not much feedback, I asked him later how he was getting along with it. He said "I don't see how it's supposedly difficult, it's like DOS and Windows."

He has since upgraded his computer and done his own installs in the meantime. He even went so far as to tell the salesdroid at Worst Buy that "no, I don't need Windows Ultimate, I'm going to install Linux" which he did.

If you cannot operate Linux these days, this means you are not as smart as a 50-something Portuguese immigrant with an 8'th grade education.

Have a nice day.

--
BMO

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but Apple has had the "software people actually want to use" feature for much longer. When will the OSS community be catching up with that one?

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a ridiculous anecdote. For starters, education does not stop when you leave school.

Also, anyone who can state "it's like DOS" is not your average everyday computer user, regardless of how poorly educated you think Uncle Joe is.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

He said "I don't see how it's supposedly difficult, it's like DOS and Windows."

If you can't see the problem right there, you are lost.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[Osgeld]

they want to make sure its stable before patenting it

Re:Leader, not a follower

[stewbacca]

Linux has had this option for ages. How often does Apple play catch up with the OSS community?

Hate to break it to you but Mac OS has had this option longer than Linux has been around.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[stewbacca]

Ermm, no. You've been able to do this with Apple ever since, I don't know, Disk Utility v.1.0?

This is not a new feature for Apple. They don't even want you to know this is a feature. People who don't know how to use Disk Utility won't ever know they need it and people who need to do a clean install of Lion know how to use Disk Utility already. This is the biggest non-issue in Apple history.

Re:Leader, not a follower

[bmo]

The point being that he wasn't intimidated by it.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

--
BMO

rank speculation

[sribe]

With the release of Mac OS X 10.7 Lion this month, Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD and is making 10.7 Lion available only through the App Store.

Apple only announced that Lion would be available through the Mac App Store. They did not annouce anything else. All commentary on whether or not you will be able to burn a bootable disk, whether or not you will be able to purchase physical media, and so on, is merely uninformed speculation.

Re:rank speculation

[adamstew]

Apple has said, quite explicitly, that Lion will ONLY be available in the App store. They mentioned this as part of the WWDC keynote.

Re:rank speculation

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess I didn't read things like "Instead of distributing the OS by optical disc, as in the past, OS X Lion will be available exclusively by download from the Mac App Store for $29" (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/mac-os-x-lion-to-arrive-in-july-via-mac-app-store.ars). Unless your definition of the word "exclusively" is different from mine, or you're privy to information Ars weren't back in June.

Re:rank speculation

[sribe]

I was there. I heard them. It will only be available for purchase via the app store. They did not say ***anything*** at all about bootable disks, whether/how you could burn one, whether there would be any kind of recovery disk available, and so on. You, like the OP, are extrapolating based on your own assumptions.

Re:rank speculation

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Apple has said, quite explicitly, that Lion will ONLY be available in the App store. They mentioned this as part of the WWDC keynote.

So new Macs will never come with Lion?

Re:rank speculation

[homesnatch]

Those of us in the Apple Dev program have already burnt a copy of the Lion GM. It comes as a DMG file. If you want to put it on a USB key or DVD (dual layer), it is up to you.

Re:rank speculation

[adamstew]

oh, I agree... once you have it downloaded, it's quite easy to just burn the file to a DVD or a USB key. I was just saying that in order to buy it, you'll be doing that through the App Store.

Re:rank speculation

[Stupendoussteve]

Speculation? People are burning backup media. The gold master has been released to developers. Not much speculation at this point.

The speculation is if it will be possible to buy an optical disc at some point. I would be surprised if it doesn't come out eventually, or maybe they only sell it in areas without Apple stores, or something similar.

Re:rank speculation

[Macrat]

I was there. I heard them. It will only be available for purchase via the app store. They did not say ***anything*** at all about bootable disks, whether/how you could burn one, whether there would be any kind of recovery disk available, and so on. You, like the OP, are extrapolating based on your own assumptions.

Yes they did. Watch the WWDC keynote again from Apple's keynote podcast. It is at the 35 minute mark and Phil Schiller says, "How are we going to get it? In the past, one thing that every version of Mac X has shared in common that it came on an optical disc. No more. (preso animation of a disc dissolving) Lion will only be available in the Mac App Store."

Re:rank speculation

[Macrat]

So new Macs will never come with Lion?

New Macs will come with the latest OS on the hard drive like always.

Re:rank speculation

[stewbacca]

They have clearly said that THEY will not supply any physical media. It is easy to speculate, however, that you'll be able to make your own physical media.

Re:rank speculation

[Cinder6]

That still says nothing about making your own bootable discs. It doesn't come on an optical disc anymore (as in, Apple won't sell it that way), but who says you can't put it on one? Nobody.

Link slashotted

[Fudge Factor 3000]

I thought these things didn't happen anymore!

Re:Link slashotted

[Urban Garlic]

Indeed, but if you google "OS X Lion boot disk" (not quoted, although that would probably work too), you'll find that the same instructions are all over the place. Basically, download the Lion installer, dig around inside it for a .dmg file, burn that, and you're done.

No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new computers

[perpenso]

Apple will no longer offer a bootable installer DVD ...

Note that everyone is talking about the 10.7 ***upgrade***. If you are buying a new mac with 10.7 preinstalled you will probably have DVD media to restore your system.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[frizop]

Didn't they say it was going to be a USB Thumb drive?

Pure BS and FUD

[javab0y]

Apple knows they cannot allow a non-bootable OS. If your drive crashes, WTF are you going to do? Anyways... lets get to the real deal. The downloadable version of Mac OS X lion has a bootable DMG in the Contents/Shared Resources directory.Its called InstallESD.dmg. Simply open DiskUtility and burn that to DVD, then you have a bootable disk.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

It's BS and FUD to you, certainly - any of us here know (or should know) that the download includes an image for a bootable DVD. But how many normal Mac users are going to know that? In all honesty I don't know how well publicised this is. I read the tech press so I've known it for a while, but if I asked someone like my dad? I'm not so sure. Then their drive goes down, their computer is unbootable, and they're mightily pissed off with Apple for either not making it clearer (though as I say, it's possible they did and I've not seen) or simply not giving them bootable media in the first place. Given the cost of DVDs, I still don't quite see why Apple are so desperate to make this a download anyway.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Globe199]

Yeah, and they're mightily pissed? And then what are they going to do? They're going to go purchase a new Apple computer because the old one's broke. Which is exactly what Apple wants everyone to do -- purchase one of their toys every single year.

The reason they don't want it on DVD is because a physical medium is outside their control. /rant

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Most users don't even know what that disc is for.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[cybrhippy]

What difference does it make if they include physical media or not? Dell and other "PC" vendor's don't ship their systems w/ restore disk's anyways. Also, I am one of those guys ppl call or get referred too to fix home systems. 9 times out of 10 most ppl don't have/can't find the install media or they got the system from a surplus sale at their or family members work. The only way they are going to get an OS installed is if they find someone like me who works for cheap or free beer.

So far the only new thing I see is someone selling an OS upgrade for a reasonable price.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

Or, they're going to buy a much cheaper Dell machine and say "Fuck Apple". Which is a scenario Apple obviously think isn't going to happen - and hell, they're a big company with some good market research so it's entirely possible they're right and the bulk of their target demographic would just go out and buy another Macbook Pro - but which is a scenario I know would happen with a good few people like my dad who know enough about computers to be comfortable, but aren't nerdy enough to read the tech press or dig through a download to find a .dmg, or to think "I should burn that to a DVD in case my drive goes down".

I guess Apple don't really want that market, in which case all power to them, but they'll lose at least some custom that way.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Darinbob]

I suspect that you use your old DVDs for Leopard or whatever you have. Brand new computers on the other hand will still probably come with an emergency repair DVD or such. I assume, I could be wrong. The cynical side of me says that a crashed HD means that you drive to an Apple store to have it fixed and thus be subjected to high pressure sales to replace your aging computer.

Remember people, this is an Apple product. These are fashion accessories and are not intended to be used for actual work.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Jezza]

Or they boot from their existing media and use their Apple ID to re-download it (yes a huge hassle... but doable). Or probably more likely they take it to an Apple Store where a "genius" fixes it, and as part of that process they reload the OS... Just saying.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[dishpig]

Oh bullshit. They'll take it to a repair shop, precisely because they don't know what they're doing. Get your head out of your ass.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[FromageTheDog]

Fashion accessory? I guess scientists and engineers are a mighty fashionable bunch, then. Most researchers I know (I'm in aerospace and split my time between NASA and Stanford) swear by Apple machines. UNIX underpinnings, It All Just Works, and the hardware is bulletproof. Best of all worlds.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

But a problem there is if there *are* no Apple stores nearby, and you're on capped broadband.

I just think Apple probably should offer Lion on DVDs, too. As it is, a lot of their customers aren't likely to have burned any recovery media and will have to go to an Apple store... and there might not even be any. (I live in Norway. We don't have any here. We've got quite a few resellers, but they're just resellers, and I've got absolutely no idea what they will or won't be able to do.)

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Jezza]

Yeah because every PC OEM includes reinstall media don't they? Oh, but they don't, they include a "reinstall partition" (which is no help if the drive is borked). I even saw a laptop (Acer I think) where you could only make one set of the reinstall media from the recovery partition! (Think about that for a while... yeah)

Apple are one of the few vendors who include a recovery DVD (currently), I think it highly likely they will continue to provide recovery media of some kind (I think it'll be a MacBook Air style USB thumb drive - no inside information here).

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[uglyduckling]

If someone can't manage the 3 seconds of Google searching to find out how to make a bootable CD image, then they really aren't going to be in a position to replace their faulty drive and reinstall the OS. They should be taking it to a geek friend or a computer store.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

Unfortunately I wouldn't argue with that.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Culture20]

What difference does it make if they include physical media or not? Dell and other "PC" vendor's don't ship their systems w/ restore disk's anyways.

No, but HP at least plasters a huge dialog on first boot that asks you to insert a couple DVDs to create restore disks. Hopefully Apple does the same thing with these dmg files.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Jezza]

Connect it to the Internet and use your Apple ID to download a fresh copy (it really is that simple).

Yeah, Apple have removed the floppy disk again... we'll adapt.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Proof read you shit, please. That first paragraph/run-on-sentence was painful as hell to read. There might be some good points in there or even the cure for cancer, but I couldn't be arsed to parse it.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[profplump]

Is there some reason to believe that new machines will not ship with restore disks of some sort?

Existing machines already have a bootable OS -- you might have to install 10.6 before you re-upgrade to 10.7, but that's going to be true of any aftermarket upgrade on any platform.

So unless someone wants to link to a credible story that reads "Apple stops shipping bootable media with new computers" the only real the only problem here is people who want to create a 10.7 installer disk for existing machines. That is a legitimate concern in terms of doing re-installation directly and quickly, and it's certainly something I'd want, but it has nothing whatever to do with being able to get a dead machine to boot again, or with typical home user usage.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a lot of venom in that last statement. I use mine for work all the time; it works as well as any other laptop. Basically I like that there's no blinking orange or blue task bar buttons or an absurd amount of modal dialog boxes in OS X. It let's me get work done without whining for my attention all the time.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Culture20]

UNIX underpinnings

The barest of UNIX underpinnings, and adoption of non-UNIXy elements.

It All Just Works

For special sets of "Just Works"

and the hardware is bulletproof.

Apple's hardware sucks terribly. They can't figure out cooling. Maybe you meant that literally. It would make for an interesting day at the firing range.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Darinbob]

I've found the hardware to be unreliable. Over time they have made it harder and harder to actually fix stuff on the laptops, batteries aren't even replaceable and I've seen those fail at a high rate. The only reason to make them not be replaceable is purely to make the product look better.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech people are getting so knotted up about this. The OS is not even out yet, maybe information is forthcoming!

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Everything you say is true, but it won't make any difference to GPP or others like him. The Apple-haters, like all fanatics, are uninterested in trivial things like data and logic.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure that button is right after the "I Agree" button people click after reading the EULA....

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Stupendoussteve]

Lenovo also limits you to only one backup of the recovery partition, though it is easy to modify a hidden .ini file to allow another one.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Osgeld]

yea a bootable dmg file you should have burned when you downloaded it does not do much good when its been deleted for 8 months and your computer is hosed does it

Apple! Always finding a way to fuck up a perfectly good disk

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[stewbacca]

If your Dad doesn't know to make a recovery disk or thumb drive, he's also not gonna know how to boot from the system disk that was provided.

And if you don't understand Apple's desire to push new paradigms like download-only purchases, then you haven't been paying attention to anything they've done in the past 10 years.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[stewbacca]

Every single year, eh? Let's take a look in my house.

1999 G4 Mac, original two hard drives still work, computer still works
2006 Intel core solo Macbook, original hard drive
2007 Intel core duo iMac, original hard drive
2008 Intel Core 2 Duo Macbook (aluminum), original hard drive
2010 Intel Core i7 Macbook Pro, original hard drive

So it seems your assessment that I should buy a new Mac every year due to failing hard drives is anecdotally incorrect--I seem to buy them because I like them.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[stewbacca]

Is there some reason to believe that new machines will not ship with restore disks of some sort?

Yes, because Apple has said as much.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[stewbacca]

Nearly every consumer agency rates Apple at the top or near the top in hardware reliability. I'd cite it here, but it's easy to find for yourselves.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[shutdown -p now]

The barest of UNIX underpinnings, and adoption of non-UNIXy elements.

Given that it's certified UNIX, what's "bare" or "non-UNIXy" about OS X?

Last I checked, all the things that Linux geeks swear by - you know, powerful shell, vim/emacs etc are all there.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

You poor baby.

It's only a mildly opinionated post in another thread about Apple. You'll live.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

yes, we will. but i also said about two or three times in this thread (and doubtless hundreds of others have said too) that there are people on capped broadband, and that 4gig download will wipe a massive chunk out of their monthly allowance. there are people on slow internets, and that download will take them forever. and many of those people won't live near an apple store to use the alternative of downloading it there. this won't affect me personally - i'm on uncapped and reasonably fast broadband so if i choose to upgrade to lion i'm fine, but i can imagine people it will affect. apple obviously can, too, but from the announcements i've read it doesn't look like they care very much.

it just seems that we can say "what if i can't get it from the internet?" and people reply "go to the apple store". "but i don't have an apple store in my *country* let alone my city." "download it from the internet".

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

No, you're wrong there. There's a big difference between knowing how to put a DVD in the drive and turn the computer on, and knowing (on a system he's not really used to) how to burn the DMG to disc. I can't imagine you can't see the difference.

Of course I understand Apple's desire to "push new paradigms". Personally I feel they're doing it too vigorously -- I still have a Power Mac stuck on Leopard, and now I have Intel Macs that may or may not stay on Snow Leopard since they're needlessly dropping Rosetta and I have a couple of PowerPC applications I still use -- but they disagree, and their bank balance vindicates them. The difference there though is that I can understand the PowerPC-Intel transition; that Power Mac of mine was nice in its day but it was very much the end of the line. I can't really see why they're dropping Rosetta and not offering it as a download through their precious App store, but it's part of the same transition, so fair enough. I can even understand them dropping support for all the Core Duo chips.

Swapping to a download-only distribution of your main OS, though? To me, that's just... odd.

But this is all a bit besides the point, which was a pretty small one, that people with SL Macs now are liable to upgrade to Lion without burning any installation media. Then when something goes tits up, they've no recovery media. Their alternative is to put in their SL DVD (assuming they still have it), install SL, and *then* upgrade to Lion. Not an ideal solution, really.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[LoganDzwon]

Yes, because if a company doesn't give you a disk when you upgrade, (even thought you get unlimited re-downloads of the full version of the software anytime you need it, and some of their current offering don't have optical drivers,) then you should go immediately run out and buy from a competitor that doesn't give media at all, and hasn't done so for 10 years.

Look, someone ready to to do the work to replace the HD on a Mac can be safely assumed to have means to replace the OS.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[LoganDzwon]

This just in, if you live in the middle of no where, with no modern infrastructure, you have to figure out how to do things a little different then those that live in densely populated area with high developed utilities. This includes having a septic tank, and having that pumped regularly, long drives to get groceries, limited choice of local retail shopping at big brand stores, having well-water instead of city water, poor roads, and crappy/limited internet access. These deficiencies are part of the choice to live in the boonies. There are plenty of positives, too, of course, but those are out-side the scoop of this conversation.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[LoganDzwon]

That is exactly correct. That and a company that actually stands behind their product.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[LoganDzwon]

barest UNIX underpinnings? non-UNIXy elements? you obviously have no idea what the hell your talking about. UNIX is a base standard. Your OS must meet certain POSIX guidelines and requirements. You can add whatever you want on top on it, but you can't miss anything. This isn't LINUX we are talking about, this is a true certified UNIX.

If you are trying argue the "Just Works" thing you again, obviously have no idea what your talking about. You take a new Apple out of the box, install any office suite, and you have a computer that is ready for 98% of the things someone would use a computer for.

Apple hardware has actually been around the top of ratings by consumerist groups for at lest the last 10 years I've been paying attention.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Wovel]

The only thing they said was that Lion is exclusively available through the Mac App store. They have also said it can be installed by imaging tools for bulk license customers.

They have not said anything about how it will be distributed with a new machine.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Wovel]

You are saying people who could reinstall a hard drive but not figure out how to obtain/backup the install media are going to go get all pissed off and change operating systems and by a POS from Dell?

The person following that decision tree needs some serious help.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Wovel]

Good point..

I have a 1999 iMac and a 1998 Powebook and the harddrives still work in both, the iMac is still on most of the time. My 2007 and 2010 MBP still have the original harddrives. My 2010 iMac still has the original hard drive. I have a linux machine I built in 1999 and the hard drive has been pretty well pounded continuously for 12 years and it still works flawlessly (Knock on wood).

I have actually only ever had hard drives fail in dell and thinkpad (pre lenovo IBM) laptops, one desktop windows box, and a tivo.

As a side note, I managed to replace the drive in the Tivo and get it up and running without much trouble, Tivo did not supply any media.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[Wovel]

The problem is the developers. Or if you think rosetta support is a real big issue, write a PowerPC emulator :)

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

Your view of "the middle of nowhere" is quite interesting. There are large parts of Britain with surprisingly slow internet and next to no access to an Apple store... despite being right in the middle of a well-developed country.

Anyway, this seems to have spiralled a bit. My only point is that I think it would have been better for Apple to be providing physical media in addition to the download. Obviously Apple disagree with me. Obviously you also do, as is your prerogative.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

I'm saying (in an exaggerated manner) that people who can replace a hard drive and find that because Apple didn't make it clear that there's a bootable image in the Lion download they're going to have additional difficulty reloading their OS are likely to think worse of Apple as a result, and that will factor into their future purchases.

Re:Pure BS and FUD

[boristhespider]

If I could :) I don't have *that* much software needing Rosetta anymore, but it would still be useful. Thing is, Apple already have Rosetta and there's no immediate reason for ditching it other than to finally sever the links with PowerPC, so I still think they could offer it as a download on the App store even if they want to remove it from Lion. I'd even pay a few extra dollars for it.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[TheLandyman]

For the Air it would have to be... but why not standardize. Great opportunity here for Apple.

Apple has had this for years

[hellfire]

You got early points for trying to platform bash, which is always popular here, but you're missing the point of the article, and deserve a quick demodding. The news here is not that Apple magically now has an option that it didn't have before, but instead how to specifically do this for Lion, since Lion doesn't come on a disc like previous versions. On previous versions I'd mount the CD and the USB drive, and basically do an install onto the USB drive directly (there may be a couple other minor steps but I've not done it on a USB drive in a while, I prefer a bootable firewire drive). Without a disc, the news is "what is the new way to create a bootable USB drive." If you had Googled this you would have seen Mac has had this option in some form for years.

Besides, it is true that Linux had this option before Windows or Mac OS years ago, but that's not the point either. Lion news is making the rounds, and nerds want to know how to do things like this. That's all this is. That makes your comments meaningless and useless.

Re:Apple has had this for years

[jedidiah]

> but instead how to specifically do this for Lion, since Lion doesn't come on a disc like previous versions.

Write the disk image to an actual CD.

That's kind of like what Linux has been doing since pretty much forever.

You can create your own private "app store" with Linux too.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[jedidiah]

Yeah, great to replace an optical disk that is cheap enough to be disposable with something that isn't quite so dirt cheap anymore.

Summary got it wrong

[drkamil]

There WILL be physical discs available. Only SL users can upgrade by download.

Re:Summary got it wrong

[boristhespider]

I'm not arguing or trolling - do you have a source for that? The last I knew that was properly clear, it claimed that Lion would only be available as a download from the App Store. That came straight from Apple's comments at the WWDC.

Re:Summary got it wrong

[Jezza]

I bet there will only USB thumb drive reinstall media - but personally I think that's better.

Re:Summary got it wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this is incorrect. There will be no physical discs. Any Intel Mac not currently running Snow Leopard would have to be upgraded to Snow Leopard (these discs WILL still be available) THEN download and upgrade to Lion.

If your HD is borked, you'd install Snow Leopard, THEN download and upgrade to Lion.

Or you could, as many have pointed out, burn the included "InstallESD.dmg" file to a DVD, thereby creating a bootable Lion installer that can be used on a bare drive.

What I don't understand is all this bitching and moaning about how average Mac users aren't going to like it. Like the basement-dwelling geeks on Slashdot have any fucking clue what the average computer user is or is not going to like.

I also don't understand why no one has brought up the MOST DISTURBING THING ABOUT LION. The recovery partition PHONES HOME TO APPLE WITH YOUR SERIAL NUMBER before restoring your OS. No internet connection? Sorry, you're not authorized to re-install Lion.

So much hatred for Apple in this thread (and I have some serious problems with the company as an entity, believe me) but that has nothing to do with the OS they produce. Mac OS X runs better than any other OS on the same hardware - and not just Macs. I've got Snow Leopard running on a Dell E510 with a 3GHz P4D and 1GB of RAM from 2005, and it is FAR faster and more stable than Win XP, Win 7, Ubuntu and lubuntu 10.10 and 11.04. In fact the only OS I've loaded on that thing that was faster than Snow Leopard was Joli OS (which I absolutely LOVE - it really made my sister-in-law's 11 year old Gateway sing!).

Bash Apple and Mac OS X all you like. The fact is it's the best engineered OS on the planet.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[Jezza]

Err, for consumers it's better - installing from USB thumb drive is FAR faster... Sure, it costs a little more for Apple to supply it.

But here's an idea, when they do Mac OS X 10.8 it would be really easy to write that image over your install USB to keep it current.

USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[jsepeta]

Are Apple's profits too infinitesimal for them to take the staggering loss of pennies by making millions of DVDs that nobody uses after the first install? Or are they trying to help the environment by forcing all their technically-gifted customers to buy USB flash drives so that we can install a single download onto multiple computers?

I think this move is every bit as misguided as Apple's Final Cut Pro X (iMovie Pro) and only slapping 2GB RAM onto brand new MacBooks - or Jobs' decision to not include a disk drive on the NeXt Cube (a decade before writable CD's were widely available). Yes, I use Macs, but more and more begrudgingly because those rich BASTARDS are being CHEAPSKATES.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Jezza]

You can't copy a file across your network?! Seriously, think about it - you downloaded it, you're going to run it from the hard disk. Now how can you do that from another computer? Copy the file across the network perhaps?

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[SpeZek]

Dude, you're talking to someone who owns a Mac.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[__aazsst3756]

Your assuming they keep the optical drive, and use decent thumb drives. Throw out the drive and include a thumb drive just big enough to hold the OS, and it might be cheaper.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that pisses me off is the bandwidth - A linux distro might be 300MB on a CD based distro like Ubuntu or Mint, to two DVDs like for OpenSuSE, but in either case I could download these via a torrent, wich error checks as it goes, I have NEVER had a corrupted ISO torrent. Ever! But for large downloads from Apple? It took 3 tries to update my phone to iOS 4.0 at around 600MB a go. Full download everytime before it told me the image was corrupted. I've had one movie download then never play - Apple solution, download it again. 1.2GB! And they never offer checksums on their downloads of patches or update to make sure it came down right.
I would have been happy to get a tiny USB key like for the MB Air, if made in bulk, couldnt cost more than pressing and shipping a shiny silver platter!
Even if this was an extra itme charge.
Ih, and If I have two macs in the house? My kids dont have access to my iTuns account, I give them gift cards to keep their account in credit. So am I going to have to download twice?? 4GB each time?? I only have 20GB/Month!
Many unanswered questions.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Apple's profits too infinitesimal for them to take the staggering loss of pennies by making millions of DVDs that nobody uses after the first install? Or are they trying to help the environment by forcing all their technically-gifted customers to buy USB flash drives so that we can install a single download onto multiple computers?

I think this move is every bit as misguided as Apple's Final Cut Pro X (iMovie Pro) and only slapping 2GB RAM onto brand new MacBooks - or Jobs' decision to not include a disk drive on the NeXt Cube (a decade before writable CD's were widely available). Yes, I use Macs, but more and more begrudgingly because those rich BASTARDS are being CHEAPSKATES.

I wonder if the energy cost of DVD production is greater than the energy cost of someone with a 768kbps - 1.5mbps connection downloading this for hours. Its probably actually worse for the environment to do this. But easier on them.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

At least it's only a $30 upgrade, I'll download that 5 times, only costs my ISP pennies.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[SpeZek]

At least it's only a $30 service pack

FTFY

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Culture20]

Yeah, he could just reboot in target disk mode and transfer that puppy via thunderbolt!

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, you just need to buy the $50 Thunderbolt cable that, suprise suprise, only Apple sells.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Stupendoussteve]

You don't have a LAN? The upgrade is a single file. Transfer it to the other computer and upgrade it.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[jo_ham]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Belkin-F2CD008ng1-5M-Apple-Cable-Display/dp/B0038FI326%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAISRIXQ6RZDSZIFDA%26tag%3Dprodurevie0e6-21%26linkCode%3Dsp1%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3DB0038FI326

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Jerslan]

That's like saying Windows 7 was only a Service Pack for Vista..... and that "Service Pack" cost hundreds of dollars. For fewer updated components.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[armanox]

or that XP was a service pack to Win2000 (both are NT 5.x)

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[fermion]

Just to include some facts. This only includes upgrades, and the upgrade costs is $29. This includes as many computers as you have under your iTunes account. The cost for such a multi-computer upgrade was $200 two versions ago and $100 in the current version. So yes, there is a reason to not include physical media. They are trying to sell at as low a price as possible.

In terms of the USB drive, if one wanted to make a USB bootable copy of the new OS, a 2 GB USB drive costs $5. I suspect that Apple will be provided the OS on USB drives for new computers, as they do now for the Macbook Air. Currently I have no need for any physical media at all. Boot partitions can be easily created on a hard disk so that I have immediate access to the current and previous versions of Mac OS. Software like Aperture can be copy from the DVD to a dmg file on the hard drive and accessed that way. Makes restoring much easier than having to shuffle DVDs. I miss DVDs in the same way I miss 8" floppy disks or tape. There is some nostalgia, but the sheer inefficiency of them makes we wonder why people care.

I hope that more computer as shipped with no moving parts. I like the fact that I have no mechanical HDD or DVD. I know some people are into Blu Ray, and they want such a drive, but I don't want to spend money on a legacy storage device when I could be spending money on speed. I look forward to the day when even the cooling is solid state.

This reminds me of when everyone was bitching about Apple moving to LCD monitors.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Bobartig]

You do realize that Apple reduced the price of the upgrade by 75% while moving to App Store distribution, right? I'm not crazy about distributing a new OS over the App Store, but keep in mind Apple could have *EASILY* charged $129 for Lion and people would have paid for it.

Also, pressing one DVD may cost pennies, but the screen printing costs several times that. Add in mastering costs, packaging, manufacturing, distribution, retail, suddenly you have half a dozen vertical chains to organize. That doesn't cost pennies.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You can't be serious. USB flash drives are cheap enough and readily available. They're also more reliable, smaller, faster, and reusable compared to DVDs. The Air already ships with a USB drive (not sure if it's read-only). And DVDs can still be included with hardware that has optical drives, if they decide they want to continue supporting an outdated technology for a little while longer.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know anything about Final Cut Pro X, but I do know about the 2GB of ram.... I have a laptop with 2GB, and another one with 4GB. My girlfriend's laptop also has 2GB. She has never, ever had a problem with the amount of RAM. I've had problems when I try to run 35 programs at once, or when I try to use VMWare. on the 4GB laptop I have never had a problem.

Of course the above is simply anecdotal, but the average users aren't likely to need more than 2GB of ram any time soon. It is more important, actually, to make sure that Safari doesn't lead ram, or else it could eat up even 8GB over the course of a few weeks. (Since sleep generally works on Mac OS and thus people don't tend to reboot). .

Obviously for specific uses, more RAM would be desirable or necessary.

Most people never used the install DVD, and many of their machines don't have DVD drives, so it does seem a bit silly. I doubt I will bother burning a DVD for Lion, though I might make a USB boot drive, "just in case".

People also seem to be missing one other point, Lion also installs a recovery partition, meaning that barring physical drive failure, users can always reboot using that.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[CapuchinSeven]

Yeah right, because some random dumb ass using Windows Vista automatically knows what a network is and wtf they are doing with one.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[asoukup]

2GB and 4GB are both too small (4GB barely). It requires an 8GB USB drive to make it bootable.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise you can sign up multiple computers to a single account... Oh and get this: You can download your friends apps onto your iphone for FREE by signing into their account on your phone and downloading the apps off the app store. The app store recognises you have already paid for it an says: 'omg you already have this, here you go, another copy. I dont care what device you are installing it on'.

only catch is you have to sign in with your friends ID when updating. Easy enough for angry birds, and anything else out there.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[jaysones]

Pretty sure that this isn't about the cost of printing DVDs. They want to encourage adoption of the Mac App Store and digital downloads. Apple draws a line in the sand when they feel it pushes development forward -- no floppy on the iMac, no Flash on iOS devices. I welcome not having to stand in line for a DVD or wait for the Fed Ex guy.

Re:USB flash drives cost more than DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a Thunderbolt cable.

Great Artists Steal

[__aazsst3756]

Apple has stolen many great ideas over the years.

"Good artists copy; great artists steal." - Steve Jobs.

Although he is misquoting Picasso - "Lesser artists borrow; great artists steal", which some believe Picasso stole from someone else.

There is really very little original anymore, but sorting through the rubble of knowledge and knowing what to use and what to throw away takes great skill.

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[perpenso]

For the Air it would have to be... but why not standardize. Great opportunity here for Apple.

The restore media may have different contents depending on the product family, more than the operating system may be included. My several year old media seems product family specific. Even if the media is universal they could save a lot of money by using less expensive DVDs for the majority of the computers to be sold.

jobs is louseing it time for him to go!

[Joe_Dragon]

jobs is louseing it time for him to go!

He will likely F* the next mini with a i3 cpu and on board intel video that is weaker then todays mini with on board nvidia video. and have like 1-2 TB ports on linked at x4 so that will be like 8-12 unused pci-e lanes that are a good fit for some kind better video chip.

Re:jobs is louseing it time for him to go!

[Anonymous Coward]

And you'll buy it anyway, because you're Jobs' bitch!

Seriously, though.... What the bloody hell does what you just spewed have to do with Lion installation media?

What about ISP limits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody seems concerned that this trend of download only titles in a direct collision course with ISP's limited "unlimited" data plans.
ATT is already capping home users and the prices will only go up while the allowable traffic goes down. Download your new OS and A few other titles and guess what, you just made ATTs day.

Re:What about ISP limits?

[stewbacca]

Lion is $30. If you go over your ATT limit and have to pay an extra $50 or whatever, you are still ahead by $50 over the traditional $130 OS X upgrade.

Macs can boot from USB now?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Are all Macs bootable from USB now? And is this a recent thing? I've never been able to get my 2007/2008ish MacBook 3.1 to boot Linux from a USB, so I've always had to burn it to CD first.

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[creepynut]

I can't speak for the PowerPC macs, but as far as I know all the Intel Macs have been able to boot from USB. The catch is they can only boot from EFI formatted USB devices, not MBR.

The Fedora Live CD has a way of creating EFI live USB sticks, but you have to burn the CD to get to it! I've never been able to get Ubuntu booting from USB.

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Interesting!! Thanks for that, I shall investigate further.

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[WankerWeasel]

All Intel Macs can boot from USB. They must use the GUID partitioning scheme as shown in the guide to be Intel bootable (APT or Apple Partition Map was used with PowerPC Macs).

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[stewbacca]

I was able to boot from a SCSI zip drive in the early/mid 90s, so I imagine USB was supported as well (but never tried). It's not like the Windows world where you are constantly doing a clean install of the OS.

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[Imazalil]

Yes! I've done it plenty of times on a first-gen intel macbook pro. And FYI, you can take your old ipod (at least the 'classic' one), mount your mac os install image onto that, and use the ipod to do a install just like from a dvd. I expect something similar should be doable with Lion.

Re:Macs can boot from USB now?

[cyberworm]

I've been able to boot off of any media I can get my hands on with my MBP (circa 2007) and with my former powerbooks. Firewire, USB, Optical, NetBoot, etc. You just have to have your media partitioned properly. Heck, I've been able to boot off of and run (via FW/Target Disk Mode) from another Mac altogether. On boot, you hold down the option key and a list of available drives will come up. It's been this way since at least 10.2 (probably longer). It's the Darwin/BSD underpinnings that allow you to mount any drive regardless of medium.

Re:And In Other News...

[bonch]

The hell? Why am I getting modded down as troll? I even joked that I'm a crazy nut job.

Fuddy duddy

[pbjones]

initial release of Lion is via the app store, a DVD will follow, at extra cost. It is no different to what a number of major PC companies have done, eg HP, with preinstalled versions of Windoze and a promise to reinstall if the HD fails under warranty. You can save the install app to a DVD or backup drive, you can install Lion on many of your home computers and reinstall Lion by mounting the repaired machine as a HD on the desktop of another Mac. or you can right click on the install app and burn the disk image, dmg, to a DVD, So the story is, What??

Re:And In Other News...

[stewbacca]

You are the first troll in slashdot history to use the possessive "its" correctly. Kudos. Your trolling, on the other hand, is lousy.

Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

Get it here: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6509496/Mac_OS_X_10.7_Lion_GM

Re:No DVD for upgrade, but probably for new comput

[stewbacca]

Except that you won't. You'll have a new Mac with a drive that has Lion with a recovery partition. No disks, sorry.

Re:And In Other News...

[WankersRevenge]

These days, denoting anything positive about apple on Slashdot can result in a mod down or being slapped with a "fanboy" title.

If you want to get modded up, make sure you include the words "walled garden", "1984 commercial", and "flash" in your post while mentioning something positive about android even though the topic may not in the slightest way be about mobile devices.

If the topic is about desktop computers, make sure you tell people that in the future, the desktop is going to be like an ipod where you can only install approved software even though it isn't true. Then close your post making some remark about Steve Jobs and the cult of mac people.

If anyone disagrees with you, label them a fanboy, mention their supposed love affair with steve jobs, and tell them to give freedom a chance. Sign off and go play on your XBox360 or PS3 and forget about the irony of it all.

I'm a typical Slashdotter!

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

This is totally misguided!! Apple is totally shunning all those 56k people that... oh, that complaint came up already.

Uh... Oh oh Apple insists you gotta use a proprietary screwdriver to... dang, that one's here, too.

Ok.. ok... umm oh oh oh it's so confusing that they call it iOS, that's a Cisco thing!!

They want everything to be Apple Store

[Sycraft-fu]

They really like the iDevice model, where they are the gatekeepers and controllers of all your stuff. You buy everything for your device from them, from one place they control. They decide what can be sold, and they get a cut of everything. That model has worked real well for them. Their massive rise has not been because of their computer division, it has been because of their consumer electronics division and associated online store (don't believe the fanboys who say they make nothing on iTunes and so on).

Well they want that on the Mac too. They want you to get your apps from the app store. ALL your apps. To be able to have any chance of achieving that, they've first got to get the app store to be an extremely popular method of buying things. They have to get customers accustomed to buying from it, and get developers to accept they have to sell through it to make money.

The first step in that was offering deals for various pieces of their own software through it. An example is ARD. To buy it retail is $500. However you can get it from the app store for $80. Same product, same features. Why would they do it? Certainly a DVD doesn't cost $420. They do it to make the app store attractive.

This is the next step. Start making some of their stuff app store only. You want it? You HAVE to use the app store to get it. Get more people acquainted with the idea.

I'm quite sure the eventual goal is that everything will be all app store, all the time. Probably a long way off and they may not actually be able to achieve that, but that is what they want. Make MacOS like iOS where you have to buy from Apple's store to get anything.

If only they would listen to you

[Brannon]

they could make literally thousands of dollars selling computers to geeks instead of having to suffer through making billions of dollars selling computers to consumers.

0wned? (nt)

[Brannon]

oh snap.

Yeah, Dell is kicking Apple's ass lately

[Brannon]

Clearly Apple needs to come read slashdot forums so they can get their company back on track.

Re:Yeah, Dell is kicking Apple's ass lately

[boristhespider]

Damn straight.

Thank god Apple has you to guide them...

[Brannon]

...or else their stock price might continue its perpetual slide into oblivion. I mean seriously, that company must be running on fumes now.

I can't get how this is news here.

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't most Linux distros been this way for years? You download it, copy (as per the article) to your media of choice and can then install it on all your machines. That last part is even allowed, as long as they're your machines. I have a Mac, I installed Ubuntu on it with VirtualBox...I didn't use physical media to install, but I burned a disk with my Ubuntu image on it. Just to save downloading it again if I wanted to....

So again, how is this news? OK, it's Apple and it's new for them so maybe it is sort of news. But how is this news for nerds? It's old hat.

No, MacBooks just can't run at SATA III speeds

[tlambert]

No, MacBooks just can't run at SATA III speeds. This is because the SATA cable is insufficient'y shielded, and since it's not COAX, if you put in a very fast drive, it'll happily negotiate the higher 6Gb/S data rate and then get errors and crash because of it.

So it's really not a good idea to put the jumped up SSD drives in as a replacement for the existing drives (and no, a real and shielded SATA III coax has insufficient clearance to install in place of the old cable; the tolerances are too tight).

-- Terry

Re:No, MacBooks just can't run at SATA III speeds

[guruevi]

The issue with the MacBooks is different than the issue with the iMac that the GP instigated. Either is not Apple DRM on hardware.

its not that there cheap

[Anonymous Coward]

They just want people to get used to the idea of no more physical storage. They want every one to use the app market. That way they always get a cut on the profits. Its working so well for the Iphone/pad line why not slowly force it onto the desktop market. Makes sense to me. They just want to control and profit from every piece of software that is available for the mac. A few years from now there desktop line wont have firewire or usb they will have there own special cable that works for that. Also no more dvd-rom drive cause thats just silly who needs them when u get every thing from the cloud or from the app store

Re:And In Other News...

[Anonymous Coward]

You got modded down as Troll because your post was every bit as trollish as the one you were responding to. You deserved the downmod. You know that, and you agree with it even though you're trying (unsuccessfully) to convince yourself that you don't.