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Nortel Patent Sale Gets DoJ Review

gavron writes "The US Department of Justice will review the Nortel patent sale to the entity formed by Apple, Microsoft, and others. This is the same sale that the Canadian authorities declined to review because the $4B+ deal was valued by them at less than $328M. According to a (paywalled) Wall Street Journal report, 'The Justice Department wants to know whether [the consortium] intends to use them defensively to deter patent lawsuits against its members, or offensively against rivals.'"

18 of 109 comments (clear)

  1. So one intent is better than another? by Karhgath · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How are either offensive or defensive patents better than the other really? They both make a joke of the patent system. The question should be: do they intend to use them to innovate or not? Isn't that the reason we have patents?

    Buying defensive patents is, IMHO, worse than buying submarine patents and suing someone. I mean business-wise. You are spending millions to buy something that will not even help you make money or be more profitable. Use that to do R&D and innovate. Don't they have shareholders? At least patent trolls have a clear business plan...

    This is the (corporate) cold war all over again: My arsenal is bigger than yours!

    At least there's a silver lining there if we get to the state of Mutually Assured Destruction: they will stop attacking each others with patents and we will move on with our lives. Or so we can hope...

    1. Re:So one intent is better than another? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      No, if they get to the state of Mutually Assured Destruction, then the (non-Military) Industrial Complexes of both sides will heavily tax us all to keep up the parity.

      These are fricking lawyers we are talking about, after all. All a lawyer really is is a private-sector politician.

    2. Re:So one intent is better than another? by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      And spending money to secure your computers is silly too right? You are spending money to buy something that will not even help you make money or be more profitable... Worked well for Sony after all.

    3. Re:So one intent is better than another? by artor3 · · Score: 3

      Yes, everyone agrees that the patent system as it currently exists is insane. But it is what it is. Ignoring that reality and not stocking up on defensive patents is foolish.

      Guns exist. Buying guns to hurt people is bad. Buying guns to protect people from bad guys with guns is okay. It would be nice if guns didn't exist at all, but they do, so we have to deal with it.

    4. Re:So one intent is better than another? by darkmeridian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unless you are Google, which is responsible for the Android operating system, which is hated by Apple. If you don't have defensive patents, you are going to get sued into oblivion. Hell, the ITC might even rule that your products cannot be shipped into the United States because of infringement. I mean, Apple currently has HTC over a barrel. Do you think that HTC shareholders wished they had a few defensive patents to use against the iPhone?

      The law might suck, but businessmen have to play by the law.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    5. Re:So one intent is better than another? by Asic+Eng · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, given that innovation usually means to build new concepts on top of older ideas, or to extent older ideas - innovation means you'll have to defend yourself against other's patents.

      Nobody is using actual patent *texts* in order to innovate though:

      • Patents are basically unreadable for technical people, they are legal not technical documents. If something is actually valuable you've heard about it through other sources.
      • Patents are usually trivial, to read through the patent document takes more time than to come up with an equal or better solution.
      • Patents are usually too old. By the time they are actually granted the methods described in them have been in common use for years.
      • Reading patent literature is dangerous - if you violate a patent knowing that it existed, then your fine could turn out much higher. If you have read about an idea before, you may well use it when encountering a suitable problem - even if you don't remember where or that you read it.

      Regarding "Mutually Assured Destruction" - that can only work if there are two parties. If you have hundreds or thousands of parties involved, it's impossible that they could all be balanced against each other. In this case the patent portfolio prevents newcomers from entering the market, so it's very one-sided. And of course a patent portfolio provides virtually no defense against a company which doesn't produce anything - e.g. a law firm which buys patents.

    6. Re:So one intent is better than another? by Agripa · · Score: 2

      Sorry, guns the the hands of any one that has no official government supervised reason is insane.
      The US has statistics that clearly demonstrate that having guns so readily available leads to unwanted results.

      The US has statistics that clearly demonstrate that having knives so readily available leads to unwanted results. How does the availability of firearms lead to a proportionally high statistic for knife assaults and murders?

  2. Libertarians still here by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are still libertarians here, they are just rarer and drowned out by the noisier people with ideals and no common sense or understanding of how humans work.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Libertarians still here by vux984 · · Score: 4, Funny

      There are still libertarians here, they are just rarer and drowned out by the noisier people with ideals and no common sense or understanding of how humans work.

      You mean the libertarians?

    2. Re:Libertarians still here by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      I think they meant the people like you.

    3. Re:Libertarians still here by Raenex · · Score: 2

      +1 smug and ideological bullshit.

  3. Re:Value... by fractalspace · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's how much $4B US will convert to Canadian dollars shortly.

  4. google ip theft by kiwirob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The end to Google's IP theft is, known as Andriod is coming. Whether you like it or not there are 1000's of patents covering aspects of Andriod which Google knowingly ignored when it released the software as Open Source.

    Google is a blatant IP theft and idiots who have fallen for their "open" agenda are just pawns. If Google was really Open it would make available it's Search Engine, Page Rank patents and software for everybody to use. It doesn't do that because it is EVIL and seeks to commoditize the Smart Phone and Tablet OS with free and open source Andriod software so it can push it's search engine and web apps to datamine private personal data to display adverts to the masses.

    Google and Andriod are only interested in your personal information to make money selling advertising to all their users. This IS NOT the promotion of a free and open source ideals. It's about making sure Microsoft and Apple do not completely take over mobile computing operating systems and marginalize Google near monopoly on Internet advertising.

    1. Re:google ip theft by kiwirob · · Score: 2

      Time to smell the coffee dude. Google has a monopoly in internet search and contextual advertising and is using the FOSS community to promote Andriod and try maintain relevance in the mobile computing space. The original Andriod prototypes where Blackberry rip-offs then while Eric Schmidt was on Apple board he saw ripped off their iPhone concept and re-engineered Andriod to use a touch interface like Apple was working on. They then ignored Sun's licensing offers for Java and all other IP related issues then promptly open sourced Andriod without indemnifying users and have hung out HTC, Motorola and all the other Andriod produces out to dry.

      Google have done the same thing with the WebM video codec. Release software they know violates other people IP to the FOSS community and wait until the users of the software they release get sued.

      They do not have a track record for respecting other peoples IP rights. They have even sues a small independent music label so they can continue to make money selling advertising to people search for illegal music downloads! http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/06/us-media-google-idUSTRE6450RP20100506 . So it is clear Google doesn't give a dam about other people IP rights, all they care about it selling adverts and making money.

      If you believe that people should respect the GPL and not steal open source software for closed source projects then you must believe in the principal of IP rights. The GPL only works if people respect the IP rights and choices of the original IP creators. Believing that FOSS software IP rights should be respected but everybody else's rights can be ignored is hypocrisy.

  5. Defensive *IS* offensive in business by erroneus · · Score: 2

    In the context of business one must "defend or lose it." So asking if they plan to become patent trolls will not give the answer they seek. Further, even if they say "no, we will be nice" there is nothing to stop them from changing their position in some way or even better, to sell patents to go trolling to another shell to go about trolling. Just asking them in advance if what their intentions are is just about useless.

    If we want the patent and other IP systems to work the way they should, copyright, patent and trademark ownership should not be transferable away from the original creator. And in the case of a corporation, I think rights should remain with the original creators as well which is to say the people employed by the company at the time who were involved in the creation. This would result in the instant death of patent trolling and the instant reform of the copyright industry. It would force companies to be loyal to their employees once and for all instead of treating them as disposable peons while they reap the benefits for the life of the corporation + XX years. And the copyright industry, unable to rape artists now and in the future, will have to play nicely with the talent for a change.

    If the patent system is supposed to benefit the inventors, then restore it to suit that purpose. If the copyright system is supposed to benefit the artists, then restore it to suit that purpose. If not, then I would rather the system and the people operating it stop lying to the people about what it is and what it is for.

  6. Defensive vs.offensive patents by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 2

    The Justice Department wants to know whether [the consortium] intends to use them defensively to deter patent lawsuits against its members, or offensively against rivals.

    As opposed to "innovatively, for the common good".

    I don't have access to the paywalled article, but isn't this the DoJ publicly admitting that patents only serve two purposes, neither of which are the ones they're intended to serve?

  7. Offensive illegal? by __aazsst3756 · · Score: 2

    Why would they care... is using patents offensively illegal? (not that I think it's right)

  8. Re:The only beneficiaries are lawyers by zippthorne · · Score: 2

    Patents, as formed in the US founding documents are intended to reward disclosure. They are a monumental failure at that: they are not written in a language that laymen can understand, and they are usually not even written in a language that an engineer would use...

    Frankly, I think it would be quite generous if we allowed patents to exist for five years before pruning: Any patent not quoted or referenced in a scholarly journal or textbook in its field should expire.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!