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Warrantless Wiretapping Cases At the 9th Circuit
sunbird writes "The EFF argued several critical cases yesterday before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Both Hepting v. AT&T and Jewel v. National Security Agency raise important questions regarding whether the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program (pdf summary of evidence), disclosed by whistleblower Mark Klein and implemented by AT&T and other telecoms, violates the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The full text of the Klein declaration and redacted exhibits are publicly available (pdf). ... The Klein evidence establishes that AT&T cut into the fiber optic cables in San Francisco to route a complete copy of internet and phone traffic to the 'SG3' secure room operated by the NSA. The trial court dismissed the Hepting lawsuit (pdf order) based on the 2008 Congressional grant of immunity to telecoms. Similarly, the trial court in Jewel dismissed (pdf order) the lawsuit against the government agencies and officials based on the state secrets privilege. Both cases were argued together before the same panel of judges. The audio of the oral argument will be available after noon PDT [17:00 GMT] today."
but if we elect a president next year we are completely at the mercy of corporate America.
FTFY. Unfortunately, the only viable form of government I can think of that's not subject to human corruption is SkyNet.
Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
Sorry, your ID must be 1,2,or 6 digits for me to give a fsck what you say. There are approximately 99,899 kooks on ./, and I'm fairly sure where they are clustered.
IF you have a 7+ digit ID, get off my lawn.
Somehow, you correspond chronology and opportunity with credibility and veracity? :-)
Bruce Perens has a 4-digit UID. I don't know if that either confirms or invalidates your thesis. Oh.
I almost forgot. "TIMECUBE"!
Meept
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Unfortunately, it seems like the only way to defend our constitutional rights these days is with lawyers, and lawyers cost money, even EFF's lawyers. And therefore, you and I and anyone who is not either a billionaire or a fictional legal person is at a severe disadvantage, almost impossible to overcome.
Therefore, if you have any money to donate, even if it's only $5, please follow the link in my sig and contribute to the few people who are really, truly fighting for your rights.
I can see the fnords!
Why do the American patriots have to abandon our country to those who have corrupted it and blasphemed against liberty and justice? Why not fight back, and put our nation back on the path towards a better America?
The major reasons this doesn't happen are closely related to characteristics of true patriots that differ heavily from corporatists, classists, and authoritarians. Here are some of the bigger ones:
1. The patriots aren't willing to completely wreck the country if they don't get what they want.
2. The patriots aren't willing to cheat, and in most cases aren't willing to commit violent or property crime, in order to gain power.
3. Patriots who are not authoritarian are much less organized than authoritarians, who by their very nature are able to move in lock-step.
4. Patriots are aware that if the authoritarians turned the US military, or military contractors like Xe, on the US citizenry, the authoritarians would likely win, even if they lost would wreck the place in the process (see point 1).
I am officially gone from
Dubya at least tried to hide his treason (hard to call that a different name), Barrack Hussein says wiretapping is the right thing to do.
But hey, they're respectively 2nd worst and the worst US president in history. Look at other pretenders to these titles: Nixon, almost impeached for wiretapping a single freaking hotel while Dubya and Barrack H. do this to the whole nation. Buchanan who screwed an important task but at least tried. Harding, whose biggest sin was giving an oil company preferential access to a single facility. On the other hand, our present heroes went to multiple wars under knowingly false pretenses, threw away more taxpayer money than all other presidents in history and ensured a dominance of their buddies at Big Finance.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
"Let's impeach the President for spying
On citizens inside their own homes
Breaking every law in the country
By tapping our computers and telephones"
- Neil Young
Why do the American patriots have to abandon our country to those who have corrupted it and blasphemed against liberty and justice? Why not fight back, and put our nation back on the path towards a better America?
How? What can anyone do that has a chance of turning this country around? Anyone with radical enough ideas to really change this country will never be taken seriously by the media. Therefore you will never have a chance of getting elected, and never have a chance to make a change working with the system.
The other alternative is to work outside the system. Revolution. I'm ready today, but we can't pick up arms until we have a realistic chance of winning. Otherwise we'll just be treated like Loughner. Of course, we can't build a revolutionary army without getting our message out there. So we run into the same problem we see above.
Anyway you look at it, I see no light at the end of this tunnel.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Perhaps you've forgotten: During 1979, Carter deregulated the American beer industry by opening access of the home-brew market back up to the craft brewers, making it again legal to sell malt, hops, and yeast to American home brewers for the since the effective 1920 beginning of Prohibition in the United States.. (Don't blame me for the grammar.)
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Yes, It starts at the ballot box. Quit closing your mind and selecting democratic or republican candidates. They've developed a duopoly that locks out anyone working for the people. And we need to find a way to take the power away from the lobbyists. They're the ones writing the bills that get put before congress. IMHO we should get the people to put a amendment to the constitution to increase terms by 50%, and eliminate getting re-elected in office, and make all elections publicly funded and audited. This will cut off at least some of the flow of money to re-election slush funds, of which I suspect are slushed out of elections, and slipped into politicians pockets. You'll never see congress put a amendment out to do this. The only way it will get done is to get a group of people in each state to put the same constitutional amendment on the state ballot box.
Remember that the Constitution starts with "We the People". If we leave it to congress and the White House, they're going to change it to "We the Corporations".
I take no responsibility for what I say. Even though I'm never wrong
What, exactly, have you been smoking for the last three years? The Dems are no different than the Neo-Cons. Both sides lie, cheat and steal to hold on to their power. Obama campaigned on "Hope and Change", but what, exactly, has he done differently than his predecessor? Bush authorized warrantless wiretapping and Obama promised to vote against telecom immunity for that...until he was elected president, and then, as one of his last actions while still he senator, he voted for the very bill he promised to oppose. Bush (rightfully) got raked over the coals for the Iraq War; Obama now is dodging the War Powers Act so we can get involved in Libya. Under Bush, TSA/DHS was created; under Obama, TSA initiated the AIT scanners/pat-downs at the airports.
Yeah, you can nitpick social issues like abortion and stem-cell research, but when push comes to shove, there really isn't a lot of difference between the two parties. Both of them are eager to drive the country to insolvency. Both endorse handouts to their corporate backers. Neither one is willing to make the hard choices that will get this country out of the hole we have dug for ourselves. Both parties are busy wiping their backsides with the Constitution while making the federal bureaucracy as bloated as possible, and neither party really gives a rip about how badly they trample the average joes like you and me in the mean time. If you think the Democrats are even remotely interested in making your life better, then, my friend, YOU are the one who hasn't been paying attention lately.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Good points about the difference in policies between the two, however it seems that having the Dems in power doesn't stop the Republicans from doing exactly what they want, it only slows them down slightly.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Judging from 99% of of people I've heard bandying about the term "revolution", I'd probably be on the street fighting against you, an in favor of our absolutely corrupt, somewhat evil, ELECTED, representative government. You might be a different type of revolutionary than most, for all I know, so don't take it personally.
Most of the would-be revolutionaries I've mean, read about, etc... fall into two camps. Lunatics or Authoritarians who are mad that things aren't they way they perceive as the singular, a priori, truth. Most of the lunatics are white-supremacy types, and i sure as well would fight to keep them from recieving any small modicum of control. The latter bit are mostly (these days) Libertarian Utopians, and Tea partiers, and both of their versions of Utopia sound more like hell to me (and probably around 50% of everyone else). In the 60's 70's, this also included the far-left lunatic fringe, but they've all pretty much died off now. I say authoritarian, for these two groups, since they have their panties in a twist because voters voted for people who don't agree with their personal philosophy (as such) of governance. So it would be okay to force their views on people, but not for others to do the same to them. Worse, they (and the lunatics) hold ideals above the real world, and real people, and are will to make people suffer for mere subjective ideas. They, in other words, know better.
Nothing good has ever come from people who claim to "know better", who subsequently force their will on others. Right now, in America, to be a "revolutionary", is actually just wanting to be a tyrant.
No, we are not perfect. Yes, there are tons of things I would change. Yes, we're probably at the brink of decline. Yes, we have TONS of things to be ashamed of. But... All of our faults fall onto the people. Sure, politicians are the people who do the actions, but we voted them in, watch as they do evil, and then, this is the important bit, vote them in again. We, the people, willfully refuse to acknowledge third parties or affiliated candidates. We the people listen to the media uncritically, and always vote for whoever spent the most money on advertising. We the people hate the educated ("damn elitists"), we hate intellectuals (to the point of making it an inexplicable slander), we want to vote for "normal" people who are as moronic, myopic, and uneducated, as us. Hell, we would NEVER even vote for a person who doesn't look good on T.V., they have to look like they escaped from a daytime soap opera.
We have the government we deserve. If you don't like it, become an activist. If it really looks like a tyranny (which would be ironic, since we're talking of revolution without the fear of ours doors being kicked in, or disappearing in the night), then pick up arms. But only if all other non-violent options have been exhausted. And after you evaluate WHY yu want to rain misery down on the innocent, non-caring, civilians of our country... is it because your not getting your way, or because we're living in a genuine (thing chunks of Africa) tyranny.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
For the most part, I agree with you. However, there is one thing that trumps the Constitution on my list of priorities. When the government, whether democratically elected or not, begins to sufficiently persecute my family and loved ones unjustly, I will take whatever action I can to put an end to it, including, if need be, violent revolution.
The Constitution is indeed very, very important to me, but ultimately it is only a means to an end (namely, justice and liberty).
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Or look at Ron Paul this year. He got 2nd place in the Iowa Straw Poll, less than a percentage point behind Bachmann. Still, the media refuses to talk about him as if he were a serious candidate. It's obvious that what the people want simply doesn't matter
This does annoy me. In the last primary Dennis Kucinich was my favorite (Holy Cow, the last remaining liberal!), and even though he had zero chance of being elected, the media still either ignored him, or basically made him a laughing stock for things not at all related to politics ("zomg, he saw a UFO!"). Or Howard Dean, who basically got kicked out because of a single out of context clip of him being enthusiastic at a rally (which everyone does), a clip that the media decided was more important than anything else in the universe, and played ad naseum sans all context. This election, I already know who is going to win the Republican primary (Rick Perry), based wholly on media enthusiasm. He is the favorite of the media, thus will get more exposure, and thus will win the primary (at least). Unless, of course, he does something to loose favor with the media or their boards of directors.
But... the fact that people vote for who the media (or anyone) wants them to vote for is a deeper problem. I'm fully aware I'm using the term "the media" in a sense that could be confused for a conspiracy. I don't mean it this way. I largely mean it in the context of annoying 24 hour cable news networks, where gaining ratings, holding viewers, and maintaining a brand image are more important than actual social utility. Our politicians are chosen by their potential for spectacle, over their actual useful attributes. This is fine, the market wants this, so... The sad thing is that we take them seriously.
Why? We lack the desire, or will, to educate ourselves. Beyond that, we lack the basics of education that allow a vast majority of us to be able to freely, and independently, evaluate claims. Basic critical thinking skills. This is one thing that annoys me about the current state of the political right. The country will never get better unless voters get better, and voters will never get better without cheap, ubiquitous, education. Democracy depends on "informed voters", not just voters. Voters who are willing, at times, to not get their way for the good of the country as a whole. Voters who realize that America means more than them getting their petty wishes. We might also realize that ignorance (ala Bachmann and Palin) is not a desirable characteristic for those in power, even if we like the sound of their baseless mumbling.
We should also realize that our current state of moronic, petty, partisan bickering is not, NOT, desirable, or entertaining. It almost completely killed our (already ill) economy. And there was a contingent cheering it on, which made me sick.
Obviously there is more to this than just education. Power is also stacked against us (the people). Power is money, and money is the ability to get your message across. This leaves a vast majority of us silent and invisible. What are my desires and wishes against multi-billion dollar corporations?
All of this is inevitable. Especially based on the American form of capitalism, and the unique aspects of our character. I'm not attacking capitalism, mind. I'm just saying that we have needed, for a long time, checks to keep it from gobbling up our ability to control our government. Basically a way to limit the ways for money to translate in to political capital. Oddly, we're working in the opposite direction now.
I do think if someone like Ron Paul won a clear majority (which would require voters to evaluate him on their terms and not just take what the media feeds them), he would be president. I don't think our system is that broken, yet. If only for the (tin foil hat time) reason that the system is already shored up from below, so no one saw, or prepared for that eventuality. Once in office he might be slagged constantly, though.
I've been pondering a "citizens pac", or lobby group for a long time. Us little folk really need to organize on the same scale as corporate interests.
Sorry for being ranty, its better than packing.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
basically made him a laughing stock for things not at all related to politics ("zomg, he saw a UFO!").
This is fair. If I can ridicule Perry for his sky wizard bullshit, Kucinich deserves the same.
But... the fact that people vote for who the media (or anyone) wants them to vote for is a deeper problem.
The problem is, this is an inherent part of the human condition. Your reality is shaped as much by what people tell you is true as by what is actually true, if not more. People are not going to wake up someday and be immune to propaganda. I see no rational basis to hope this will change.
Why? We lack the desire, or will, to educate ourselves. Beyond that, we lack the basics of education that allow a vast majority of us to be able to freely, and independently, evaluate claims. Basic critical thinking skills.
Of course, education is run by the government which has no interest in giving the people basic critical thinking skills. It's a catch 22. You can't get good critical thinking skills without a good government, and you can't get a good government without good critical thinking skills. I see no rational basis to hope this will change.
I do think if someone like Ron Paul won a clear majority (which would require voters to evaluate him on their terms and not just take what the media feeds them), he would be president. I don't think our system is that broken, yet.
He would be president in name, but he would get nothing accomplished. Even less than Obama. Anything he tried to do would be locked up in committee or by legal challenges for years, until his term was over and he was voted out for being ineffectual. You can't just elect a president and expect things to change, we have to throw out the entire D&R machine. I don't see any rational basis on which to hope this could happen.
I've been pondering a "citizens pac", or lobby group for a long time. Us little folk really need to organize on the same scale as corporate interests.
They tried that. It was instantly co-opted by the republican party. Any independant party or PAC will either be coopted by the existing party structure, or it will be ignored. This has been the fate of every attempt so far, and I dont' see any rational basis on which to hope any other attempts will fare any better.
I know there are people out there who believe we can still change things by working through the system. Why? Where do you get that hope? I can't imagine any plausible scenario where the political situation in America gets better. Are you seeing opportunities I do not? Please prove me wrong.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!