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Microsoft Training May Have Helped Tunisian Regime To Spy On Citizens
An anonymous reader writes "A document released in the recent Cablegate leak reveals that Microsoft provided training to the Tunisian Ministries of Justice and the Interior in exchange for exemption from the country's open software policy. These Ministries would soon put the training to use by phishing for the social networking credentials of bloggers, reporters, political activists and protesters. Microsoft's assistance resulted in the sale of 12,000 software licenses to the Tunisian government."
The cable itself details the effort Microsoft put into negotiating a deal. Their clear intent was simply expanding into a new market, but the author of the cable was skeptical of the Tunisian government's adherence to its stated goals. Quoting: "In theory, increasing GOT law enforcement capability through IT training is positive, but given heavy-handed GOT interference in the internet, Post questions whether this will expand GOT capacity to monitor its own citizens."
Gates is rich enough. But I'm guessing the local sales rep isn't a billionaire yet.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Can anyone knowledgable comment? There are quite a few articles around saying that the key thing that MS did was to put in a certificate for the Tunisian Government in Windows / Internet explorer which let them intercept any domain they wanted to; See this posting in Scribd. If that's true it's a much more serious betrayal of their users by Microsoft.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
GE power turbine used to energize torture cables
Caterpillar tractor harvested crops to feed dictator
Well even the summary notes that Microsoft was basically offering them generic computer training. Now slashdot (note that we don't even have article here!) needs a good MS-bashing title - hey, lets go with "Microsoft helped Tunisia to spy on citizen". No, we need to tone it down a little.. what about "Microsoft may have helped Tunisia to spy on citizens"? Good.
Seriously, all Microsoft knew was giving them computer training. What about we start writing news on how school chemistry classes allow people to make bombs? Or god forbid, cooking tv shows teach you how to use a knife!
Plan A: Build better products which compete on merit alone. Failed - look at the market share of anything outside Windows & Office - e.g 1% for their new phone OS or IE's decline.
Plan B: Use litigation to extort or smother the competition, e.g. 5$ for every Android handset from HTC. Failed - Motorolas patents will nullify them now, and Ballmer is in serious shit for letting Motorola go to Google.
Plan C: Get corrupt government officials to buy their products by helping them do evil. Good luck with that, now it's no longer a secret.
Duh. Welcome to capitalism. If there's a buck to be made, a human life becomes secondary.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Do you really think that, during a 5 year negotiation process, which included a variety of topics including training, licensing, IP policy, and training and support for state IT capabilities, poor lil' Microsoft just had no earthly idea what likely use would be made?
Because it gets known now? You don't think MS is the only company that doesn't give half a shit about who they sell to, do you? If there's not an outright embargo (that has to be circumvented somehow), anyone can buy anything if the price is right. Hell, IBM sold computers to the Nazis, knowing quite well just what they will be used for.
You think any corporation would have acted different in any way? Corporations are the pinnacle of capitalist evolution: Intelligence without conscience.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Gates is rich enough. But I'm guessing the local sales rep isn't a billionaire yet.
No, but that only makes it even worse: That sales rep sold out an entire country's people in exchange for a few grand worth of commissions.
More to the point, somebody hired a sales rep willing to do that. And that willingness stems from a flaw in Microsoft's business model. The quality and price of their products has never matched their market share; they subsist on inertia and lock-in. The problem with that model is that all it would take to break it is for a single medium-sized country to decide that they would rather spend a billion dollars once to implement all of the APIs, file format converters, migration tools, etc. to make switching from Microsoft to FOSS easy and popular in order to avoid having that same country's government and people continue to pay an even greater amount of money every year to a foreign corporation. The last thing in the world they need is for some oil-rich dictators to conclude that they could implement a feature-complete open-source equivalent of Exchange Server for less than the amount of money their country pays to license it.
So when Tunisia or China or whoever else comes to Microsoft and makes demands, Microsoft bends. Because Microsoft can't afford for those countries to make the path away from Microsoft's ecosystem simple, well-documented and conspicuous. So yes, you can blame the sales rep who did the deed, but that doesn't change the fact that Microsoft has left itself in the position that it has to yield to crackpot dictators who violate human rights in order to maintain its market dominance.
(likely at the command of the Dutch government)
Unlikely, their own certificates were compromised too. The way Diginotar went about in their business and the way they handled the fall-out is reminiscent of IT gaffes by the Dutch government (unfair, you rarely hear about the things that do go right but that's assuming there are things that go right). The average Dutch government wouldn't hesitate about letting the USA spy services in though but not the Iranians.
"I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
Actualy, no. Microsoft provide intensive training to police forces, specificaly on MS security features, as mentionned in chapter 1.1 and 1.3 of the leaked agreement. Curious how the first 3 part of the contract are about security features (1.2 is about the local certificate autority and its inclusion in future MS update). You can access this agreement here (french and arabic) http://www.fhimt.com/leaks/contrat-entre-microsoft-et-le-gouvernement-tunisien/
Wouldn't that mean open source software was being used to oppress? Or would somehow the spirit of freedom inside of the software refuse to run, knowing what it was being used for?
I know Microsoft is evil and all, but really, it sounds like they had plausible deniability: "..Tunisian government's adherence to its stated goals."
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
As in all threads relating to Microsoft, prepare to be utterly disgusted. The company's defenders are going to be here promoting the most abhorrent and misanthropic arguments, or attempting to deflect the dialog. It is evil, but it works.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
So, the USA torture practices come to light, the USA illegal wars, the USA illegal everything... and those same guys see MS doing something that might be stupid from a human perspective, but no where near the level of the USA as a country in itself... is pointing the finger???? Man, you guys here still don't get the cables. It's the fucking USA that is the enemy! YES! Even if you are a USA Citizen. I might as well say, especially if you are a US citizen. Those people, that lead your country, not the guy in the White House... are fucking war criminals at best! Do something about it! We (the rest of the world) can't! Prove for once America is about freedom. But think about real freedom for once. Not just freedom on your own continent. The world doesn't turn around you. Let alone the universe. We have one earth and we have to make it together. And right now we are fucking it up. And that fucking up is being orchestrated by a handful very powerful people. Having said that... Peace. We need to stick together. Because our children will hopefully be smarter.
The linked source even says that Microsoft agreed to help train handicapped workers to telecommute so they could get employment. MS: being evil by helping all those damned cripples. The whole summary is a massive sensationalist attempt to create a "scandal" where none really exists, or rather where no proof of one really exists (maybe MS helped Tunisia, maybe they didn't.) Otherwise, this is just a pretty standard trade deal for IT software. Not illegal, probably not even immoral at all. Maybe there is more to it, but I don't think so. Computer training is not hard to find, these days, what MS was really selling was the licenses (which don't help Tunisia with it's crackdown at all) and what MS got was Tunisia using less pirated software. Oh, and note the part where all this happened before the trouble, and it was a five-year in the making deal.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
MS is a business, It does not care about people, It would sell Windows licenses and database to the Devil if it could make a profit.
Additionally, future GOT tenders for IT equipment will specify that the equipment must be Microsoft compatible, which is currently prohibited by the Tunisian open software policy.
This seems to be a point of contention. Can anyone explain why/how Microsoft compatibility is prohibited? Just because it can run MS software doesn't mean it will, the same hardware could very well run exclusively "open" software. The open software itself could also be compatible with MS hardware and software, providing drivers that work with hardware under the Microsoft label (mice, keyboards, webcams, etc), and be capable of reading and exporting to MS file formats (.doc, .xls, etc).
Twinstiq, game news
So you mean if I sell someone an axe, knowing that they will kill someone with it, I am somehow responsible?
Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right.
that is the way the world works, you sell a product or service or die
http://www.fhimt.com/leaks/contrat-entre-microsoft-et-le-gouvernement-tunisien/
Support de l'autorité de certification électronique reconnue au niveau de Microsoft IE
Microsoft inclura dans son cycle de mise à jour des autorités de certificats au niveau d'Internet Explorer, le support de l'autorité de certification nationale. De son coté, le Gouvernement Tunisien procédera à une demande écrite dans ce sense auprès de Microsoft pour la mise en place de cette procédure
google translation:
Support for electronic certification authority recognized at Microsoft IE
Microsoft will include in its cycle of updating the certificate authorities in Internet Explorer, support for the national certification authority. For its part, the Tunisian Government will make a written request in this sense to
Microsoft's implementation of this procedure.
English translation:
Tunisia's certificate authority allows it to release it's own SSL certificates. Microsoft agrees to include Tunisia's CA certificates in Internet Explorer updates.
Thats fine. But it also allows the dictator to spoof https sites and thus snoop on people even if they are using SSL. There is evidence that exactly this has happened in Tunisia with sites like gmail. See
http://advocacy.globalvoicesonline.org/2010/07/05/mass-gmail-phishing-in-tunisia/
I know there is a lot of bullshit assumptions in some of the articles on this issue, but there is definitely some fire at the heart of the smoke.
obama's DOJ is too busy going after journalists and 'leakers'
(Stephen Kim, Jeffrey Sterling, Shamai Leibowitz, Thomas Drake, Bradley Manning)
In fact, Bradley Manning is quite probably being charged specifically with giving out this cable, as it is probably one of the 100,000+ he is charged with under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and Theft of Government Property laws.
in essence... the government we have now would allow Microsoft to break this law, but they would put the guy in jail who let you know that it happened.
and I'm not just talking about manning, im talking about the Cambridge associates who are under Grand Juries right now.
this is just a pretty standard trade deal for IT software. Not illegal, probably not even immoral at all.
Almost certainly immoral, possibly illegal.
How standard it is just speaks to the level of corruption and dishonesty in business, not the inherent rightness.
MS was really selling was the licenses (which don't help Tunisia with it's crackdown at all) and what MS got was Tunisia using less pirated software.
Oh gosh, I didn't know they had business goals. Well shucks then, all's fair if you're trying to make a buck.
Oh, and note the part where all this happened before the trouble, and it was a five-year in the making deal.
Oh, note how the cable (circa 2006) questions the goals of the Tunisian government. Even then their dictatorial activities were well known.
Further, Microsoft was negotiating a government-enforced monopoly. You'd have to be stupid to think that would help the people. They're clearly buying favors from the government that go against the good of the people. They're slime even if there isn't a law against it in this case.
The linked source even says that Microsoft agreed to help train handicapped workers to telecommute so they could get employment. MS: being evil by helping all those damned cripples
The linked source even calls the charity "backroom dealing required to finalize a deal" so we can safely assume (based on other Tunisian leaks) that MS simply kicked back much of the government's purchase price to the ruling family. It's part of how dictators drain their economies into their personal accounts.
China and Russia could sell all their fannie and freddie bonds, and all their tresaury bonds, and the US would collapse overnight.
move off the dollar as a world reserve currency, and it would undergo mass inflation like argentina a few years back.
Yeah, because lower-level employees routinely approach foreign governments and bargain for laws to be changed without the higher-ups noticing.
But whatever. Even if he setup a business where such things were done without his oversight, it doesn't lessen his moral responsibility to watch what his influence is being used to do.
Is there anything that the richest man in the world won't do to get even richer?
No, Carlos Slim will do anything for one more peso.
What does that have to do with this story anyway?
go through the cables at http://www.cablegatesearch.net/
type in something interesting like 'microsoft' or 'cisco'
find some interesting ones
submit a slashdot story on it ....?
profit!
I think the training was more along these lines than "Ctrl-X cuts, ctrl-V pastes..."
Oh yeah? My god can beat up your god.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
The sensationalist part of the TFS is a quote of the linked ZDnet article, and the headline of TFS is less sensationalist than the headline of TFA.
Iit was a negotiation to override current policy that was at least amoral, probably somewhat unethical, and possibly extra-legal. (we don't have all the facts)
From the leaked cable:
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=07TUNIS1286&q=linux
"
US companies selling quality products cannot compete on a
price basis. Microsoft gave the example of PC procurement,
in which the GOT procurement commission does not specify an
operating system in their RFPs. This results in the PCs
being shipped with the Linux,s open source operating system,
which does not support Microsoft software. The Microsoft
representative argued that this has encouraged piracy and
resulted in GOT PCs using pirated Microsoft software. She
continued that the fact that the EU Commission and the
African Development Bank accept these GOT procurement laws
only encourages the GOT to maintain government procurement on
a lowest cost basis.
"
in other words, not shipping Windows with a PC = piracy
then there is the whole Tunisian Certificate Authority being put into Internet Explorer updates thing (which should have been the real story IMHO)
http://www.fhimt.com/leaks/contrat-entre-microsoft-et-le-gouvernement-tunisien/
Afrique du Sud - Cape Town - GLF Africa, le 11 Julliet 2006,
EN LA PRESENCE ET EN QUALITE DE TEMOIN:
M. Bill GATES
Chairman & Chief Software Architect, Microsoft Corporation
POUR LES PARTIES CONTRACTANTES
M Kate SHALLOE
Microsoft Ireland Operations Limited
POUR MICROSOFT
Director General Microsoft Tunisie
POUR LE GOUVERNEMENT DE LA REPUBLIQUE TUNISIENNE
Secretaire d'Etat aupres du Ministre des Techonlogies de la Communication chargee de l'Informatique, de l'Internet et des Logiciels libres
----
unless you believe that the fhimt.com people fabricated an 18 page contract in French and Arabic... i'd say that Mr Gates has his name right there, same contract that talks about sending Tunisian government Cert Authority with IE updates.
"Software doesn't spy on people. People use software to spy on people."
Gently reply
See EFF's https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/07/politics-surveillance-erosion-privacy-latin-america - The Politics of Surveillance: The Erosion of Privacy in Latin America. Reminds me of Microsoft Coffee (http://cryptome.org/0001/ms-cofee.htm), and makes me wonder what effects the Pentagon's sockpuppet programs are having as well: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks *New Microsoft eugenics program leaked: Controversial "Just Click [HERE] to Send Drones" has many concerned* - maybe
Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made. - Otto von Bismarck
Do you honestly expect a foreign government to be so stupid as to reveal their plans of misuse to an American corporation? Any government that incompetant is no threat to anyone but themselves.
He sure didn't mind when the money flowed uphill to him, so he gets to take the responsibility too.
If MS had a pattern of behavior that suggested this was an uncharacteristic move, it would be easier to believe it was a rogue manager exceeding his authority and acting against policy.
`According to a cable sent by the US embassy in Tunis on 22 September, 2006, Microsoft was so keen to get the Tunisian government to drop its policy favouring open-source software that it agreed to set up a "program on cyber criminality" to cover training. The deal also entailed the company giving the Tunisian regime, headed by President Zine El-Abidine Ben Ali, the original source code for Microsoft software.' link
"Tunisia has its own certificateauthority and since 2007 the root certificate has been included in Microsoft Internet Explorer.This certificate is not included in common other browsers like Safari or Firefox. If you visit from one of those browsers you will see a certificate error" link
No, but it should have some.
Yeah, you're only saying that because nobody properly screwed you over yet.
It's absolutely disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself?
On a personal level, probably not, on a general level, hell yes. There's got to be something else to life than blind pursuit of money. Otherwise we'll all find any quality of life fly out of the window soon enough.
Ah, but how does that mesh with your philosophy? Why would I have any reason to care about what some guy I have never met, will never met, in a country I don't know, thinks I should be doing?
BTW, I don't think you've ever tried to hold any such company accountable for anything. Hint: you're way too much of a small fry for them to bother with anything for your sake. Now sign a contract for a couple million, then they'll pay attention.
Read the damned comments. Are they not as I described? What is your issue? Is an ability to anticipate a regular occurrence insane in your eyes? Call me crazy: tomorrow night it will be dark outside.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Your're batshit insane.
And you're intentionally blind to reality.
offering general computer training--that was Microsoft's only intent,
Microsoft did these things because they are a deeply unethical company that is so obsessed with eliminating competitors they are prepared to trample civil rights if it forwards their goals.
It's interesting that you share the same ability to ignore ethics and evidence in your determination to evangelise for Microsoft.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
what they are saying is that the government shouldn't be able to order computers without windows pre-installed, because this enables piracy, therefore you shouldn't be able to order computers without windows pre-installed.
that argument wouldn't pass any jury on the planet.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2007/snapshots/50.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2008/snapshots/86.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2009/snapshots/38.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2010/snapshots/51.html
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2011/snapshots/72.html
Fortune wouldn't even rank Microsoft anywhere near their list of "Best Companies to Work For" (let alone in it for at least the last 5 years) if they had the problems you're describing, but then again, you're just another generic slashdot troll.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
businesses are allowed to do business in Tunisia, isn't this just a piece of anti-microsoft fud? We (the USA) trained Afghani's to fight the Soviets, it worked pretty good until the tactics were used on US (USA). It's not the training that is the issue, its the application; just say what you want to say and be done with it;
You think Microsoft training is evil.
FUD.
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
Are you suggesting that the Dark Lord pirates his database software?
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
1. The cable specifically mentions Microsoft knew the Tunisian government would misuse the training.
No, it doesn't. It says: "Post questions whether this will expand GOT capacity to monitor its own citizens."
"Post" is not Microsoft, it is a self-reference to the diplomatic post or station which is writing the cable. Furthermore, it doesn't even say they KNOW what Tunisia will do, it says they question. For example, I might question whether you are incapable of reading comprehension, but I don't know it.
The purpose of these bulldozers is not to run over people. In fact, that is why the IDF has troops go with them when possible to make sure they don't run over anybody (but as I said, their job is made difficult due to attacks by the very people they're trying to save from getting run over). The IDF has even installed cameras to try to eliminate the blind spots so drivers can avoid running over people who throw themselves in front of the bulldozers.
But the AC made it out as running over people was in the plan. It clearly isn't.
http://techrights.org/2009/09/20/privatization-africa/
http://techrights.org/2009/11/02/gates-africa-un-education/
http://techrights.org/2009/10/22/seeds-of-doubt-in-bill-gates-investments/
They run Windows ME and MSSQL in hell, I don't think anyone around here is going to question that. Now if the devil wants to spread more evil is he going to pump money into a big evil monopolistic corporation and make Steve Ballmer richer, or is he going to pirate it, removing the trouble of managing licenses from the backs of hell's sysadmins?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I might question whether you are incapable of reading comprehension, but I don't know it.
You can question anything you like. There's still no doubt Microsoft knew what they were doing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/12/russia-uses-microsoft-to-_n_713653.html
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/russia-uses-microsoft-to-suppress-dissent-51505
http://www.osnews.com/story/23797/NYT_Russia_Uses_Microsoft_to_Suppress_Dissent
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Russia-Anti-Piracy-Raids-Microsoft-Piracy-Putin,11270.html
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2011/03/microsoft-sorry-for-bing-quake-tweet.html
http://techrights.org/2011/09/05/microsoft-mockery-of-the-chinese/
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Now I know you lack for reading comprehension. For starters, Russia is not Tunisia. And secondly those stories are about Russian Security forces cracking down on political groups under the auspices of "piracy". There's not a whole lot Microsoft can do if gun wielding Russian Security Forces want to break down your door and throw out a lame piracy excuse to do it despite the fact that you have genuine windows and the documentation to prove it. It's fucking Russia, they don't care. I stopped reading your examples when you got to the point where your pointing out Microsoft raising money for Tsunami victims via retweets. Yea, that's def proof positive of Microsoft knowingly and specifically helping the Government of Tunisia to spy on their citizens. Give me a break.