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Fukushima and Chernobyl Side-by-Side
gbrumfiel writes "It's now been six months since an earthquake and tsunami sparked a triple meltdown at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant. New data from the Japanese government is now allowing a closer comparison of the fallout from the disaster with the Chernobyl. In terms of Cs-137, the contaminant of greatest concern, Fukushima appears to be about a fifth as bad as Chernobyl. Nature News has a Google Earth mash-up that lets you see the two accidents together. Nature also reports that chaos and bureaucracy are slowing efforts to research the crisis." (Note: There's plenty left for Linux users in the accompanying text, but the Google Earth plug-in is for Windows and Mac OS X only.)
"The total radioactive release from Fukushima is currently estimated at about 5.5% of Chernobyl, which spewed an incredible 14x1019Bq. "
Finally a story, (from something called the Nature News Blog no less), that doesn't try to say that the Japan incident is as bad a Chernobyl. Responsibility in reporting? I am shocked.
State operated nuclear power plant, designed to produce weapon grade nuclear material and operated without complete theoretical understanding of the underlying principles and mishandled due to political pressure
vs
privately operated, but State regulated power plant, designed to provide power while withstanding extreme weather conditions, but a plant that should really have been decommissioned and newer designs should have been put into operation.
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A reactor explosion due to build up of extreme pressure
vs
A reactor breach without an explosion but with hydrogen exploding subsequently around the reactor.
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Well, I want privately operated power plants with new types of design, that's what I want all over the place. I want private money being allowed into the field, letting up on the government regulations, I want a tiny nuclear reactor in my house and in my car and at some point in my lightsaber, how about that?
You can't handle the truth.
I had a friend who was actually considering buying a radiation detector back when this was in the news (he lives in Virginia, mind you). Of course, this is the same friend who also thought bird-flu/SARS/the West Nile Virus/ebola were going to sweep the world in a pandemic and Y2K was going to cause all our computers to explode. Some people are always looking for a reason to panic.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
The Stackexchange Skeptics web-site has a relatively thorough and well cited wiki, Is Japan's nuclear disaster "on par" with Chernobyl), that compares the two disasters using a number of objective metrics.
It seems fairly apparent based on that wiki that while Fukushima is a serious nuclear event, it is a fraction of the calamity that Chernobyl was, using the available objective data.
I didn't realize that graphite and diamonds were the byproduct of power generation.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
People who don't understand and don't want to will view it as ample reason to oppose every new nuclear plant for *another* 40 years.
Never mind that Fukushima, as a BWR-type reactor, was designed in 1955 and that a new reactor would have practically nothing in common but the presence of uranium and steam. Never mind that a pebble bed reactor could, as far as I understand it, be left completely un-managed for months at a time or suffer a complete core breach and still be incapable of reaching the level of contamination caused by Fukushima.
No, nuclear power is bad. We need to wait for biological engineering or material physics or fuzzy starshine power to advance to the point where we can construct new capacity for $0.05/watt with no environmental impact and no space requirements. Huzzah!
In my opinion, after a initial period of secrecy, the Soviet Union did a lot better job with openness and communication on Chernobyl than the Japanese Government / TEPCO is doing with Fukushima.
That should say something to the Japanese Government, but I fear it will not.
So what's your damn point? Carbon-14 is only one trillionth of the carbon in the atmosphere. Most of it is carbon-12, which has a half-life of -- you guessed it -- forever!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_carbon
GEEZ
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Well, are you sure enough you can trust the Japanese government?
Time and time again, the Japanese government has proved that it will distort or hide facts just to suppress public fear and outrage,
It has constantly been downplaying the consequences and denying facts.
I live in Japan approx. 200 miles from that plant.
Daily we still experience the consequences of a failing burocracy that was more interested in getting luxury dinners and gifts from the electric companies rather than demanding safe power plants.
It's easy for you to say that 'it wasn't so bad after all' because you're probably not living here. I can't drink a glass of water from the tap, use tapwater for cooking, have my kids play outside because the soil is too contaminated, don't know what I can eat because farmers/fishermen only care about making money and give a sh*t about safety. You don't see the radiation anyway so screw the customers. If they get cancer within 10 years, nobody can prove it.
Only when independent organizations measure products in labs, suddenly all hell breaks loose because stuff is exceeding even the ridiculous new standards.
If you were to take those products to Europe, all trade would be suspended immediately.
Besides amounts of radioactive material, also the landscape plays a role. Japan has much mountains so a lot of the stuff bumps into the mountains and came all down with the rain. In Chernobyl, the material was able to spread over a much wider area due to a lack of a lot of mountains. But you probably didn't know that up until this day some areas in Scotland are too poluted for keeping cattle.
Very funny when the government just raised all health strandards so high that most issues just could not be labelled as problematic. Everybody is hiding behind the goverments standards or is just acting as if they are stupid. (we-didn't-know-that).
The soil round our house is 30 times as radioactive as before. No matter if you remove it, after it rains, radiation levels are up again within no time.
Our drinkwater is slightly radioactive but since the health levels were raised 20 times, you can't complain with the water company because they insist level are below the government limits. The problem is that you hear 2 weeks afterwards that levels were too high for consumption.
Rice, vegetables, fish, everything is slightly contaminated but farmers keep on trying to ship their stuff because all they are interested in is making money.
Large departmentstores check their products but all the goods that come in through secondary channels are unchecked.
Officials from the farmers association JA look at vegetables with absolutely unsuitable radioactive measurement equipment and all conclude that it is absolutely safe.
And don't be surprised that the figures will be disputed by other organisations. In the first days after the tsunami, the government tried to cover everything up and for weeks was claiming everything was allright and no meltdown could have taken place. They have all melted down and up until this day, the plants are leaking radiation in the air because they are still not covered in anyway. So what didn't disperse during the initial explosion or leaked in to the sea through cracks, is still bit by bit leaking into the air.
Accuracy? Those numbers are based on what Tepco and the Japanese government provided. So far every estimate they have given has vastly understated the actual levels. They have done that through this whole thing and may still be attempting to hide the true impact.
Until there is a legitimate 3rd party that can verify all this then we just don't know.
The problem I have with Fukushima is that the only criticisms of the safety mechanisms of the plant referred to two things: namely the lack of tsunami protection and the how people dealt with the aftermath. Otherwise it was stressed that Japan is a modern country with state-of-the-art technology. But those were literally the least of the problems. The whole Japanese coast in the area had tsunami protection after the devastating tsunamis of 1933 and 1896 ... which was overwhelmed, wiping a dozen towns off the coast. Either you criticize all of Japan in that regard, or none of it. And the way people are dealing with the aftermath is of much less concern than they dealt with safety before the accident.
... which is obviously very limited if you have fixed installations dependent on sea water.
In fact, Fukushima Daiichi could be found on the third last position in a world wide safety ranking of nuclear power plants in 2010. (Mostly concerned with on-site radioactivity that was pretty high due to leaks.) It lacked emergency generators (13 generators for 6 reactors - I've seen 12 generators in place for one reactor. At least 4 per reactor is common). It lacked redundancy in those generators. They were all the same kind of sea-water cooled diesel generators. And because of the latter, they lacked protection against common cause failure, which demands that you distribute emergency equipment over as wide an area as possible
It also lacked filtered containment vents. Those filters can filter out at least 99% of the Caesium and Iodine (I remember a figure of 99.99% but don't know if it was Cs-137 or I-131). It's somewhat expensive (although just a fraction of the cost of the whole plant), but was adopted in Europe in the 1980ies. Further, safety protocols didn't take account of the finding that the Mark I containment didn't properly seal in a test at a prototype plant at a pressure of about 70 bar. (In emergencies it is supposed to be tight up to 72 bar, but regular testing is only done up to 62 bar.) Which was what allowed the massive quantities of hydrogen to get into the buildings in the first place.
Finally, because hydrogen getting into the buildings couldn't be ruled out in 100% of the cases during simulations, at least European plants were equipped with passive autocatalytic recombiners in all closed rooms of the reactor building. Those are catalytic converters that burn hydrogen with oxygen in the air before it can reach concentrations in the buildings, where it can ignite and either burn or (as we've seen) explode. Those are pretty cheap (about $5 mio per reactor bulding) and were installed in the 1990ies.
None of what happened was a surprise to anyone who dug out the freely available descriptions and research on the safety of the Mark I containment after the earthquake. But of course, that is something that the media couldn't be bothered with. Because they are "reporters" and as such doing research or actually understanding what they are reporting is clearly beneath them. All that reporters are there for, is to "report" (that is: parrot) the statements of politicians and whatever "experts" they feel will give them the answers they want.
Overall, the containments used in Fukushima are a great demonstration of what engineers of the 1960ies could do. They did a remarkable job in preventing a major disaster like Chernobyl. But it also shows what happens when you ignore all further developments. There were flaws in the models of what happens during a meltdown that became obvious only years or decades after the development of those containments. In engineering on the one hand and in radiology on the other - namely, that the dangers of I-131 were under-appreciated until about that time. (Exposure limits were cut down to about one thousands of the previous limits some time in the late 1960ies.)
But given the way reporting was and is being done, nothing of that will ever be known to a wide audience - because it doesn't square with the scare
Cesium is one of the most problematic ones, because it has a half-life that is long enough that it will stay around and remain a problem, but short enough that it is still very radioactive. It is also problematic because it is taken up and concentrated by biological processes.
Iodine is a great concern in the immediate aftermath of the disaster, but its short half-life means it disappears quickly and is not a problem in the long term.
Uranium is not much of a problem in general. Plutonium is pretty bad, but neither of the two are usually spread very far.
Just wait for China and India to double their reactors. We all know that their safety record is even MORE stellar.
It would be nice if we could push energy technologies that would not pollute the entire Northern Hemisphere every time our not so smart foreign counterparts have an "oops" moment . . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Zilla, a pair of giant stomping legs and a tail, with nothing above the pelvis...
Reminds me of a girl I once went out with.
*shudder*
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
I was there when it happened and left for this very reason (at significant cost to my finances and career). It took 3 months for them to confirm rumors that the reactors had melted down, and the rumors these days are that steam is coming from cracks in the ground.
I think, in the end, the USSR did not feel like it needed to play PR games with the public. The government already had complete control, so they had no reason to lie at a certain point. However, PR is everything for the nuclear lobby in Japan, which may be the most powerful group in the country (remember, Japan is not just the #1 exporter of nuclear reactors, they are the ONLY exporter). Any little fact that gets denied, delayed, or manipulated results in either additional profit made or saved. Accordingly, I do not consider the reports coming out of Japan as facts, just measuring points for where the tip of the iceberg is.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Sir –
With all due respect, your comments are not helpful.
The link you refer to does not shed any new light on the situation. In particular, it gives a "new estimate" of approximately 15,0000 terabecquerels being released from Fukushima between April and May. The wiki cites 770,000 terabecquerels since the explosion in March, 2011. The reference you have provided is significantly narrower temporal scope than that referred to in the wiki of significantly lower quantum (i.e. is not a "new estimate" of any merit). Please, in future, at least give a reference that advances your point.
Your point is unstated, but I speculate to be something like: the Fukushima disaster will be bigger than we estimated when we look back on it in the future. Alternatively, perhaps you're simply suggesting that we should do nothing because the data will never be good enough. In either case, I find it hard to imagine that in the future we'll be able to improve on the measurements that were taken back in March-July of 2011.
Second, I'm not sure what alternative you propose to "available objective data". Perhaps you forgot to elaborate on why TEPCO is relevant. The references from the wiki do not seem to source data from TEPCO, if that is what you were alluding to.
While you may think comparisons at this point are done by the "clueless", I believe such a conclusion is wrong for at least two reasons. First, the comparison puts into a useful context the information we have. Second, for posterity we shall have the opportunity to illuminate our errors. That the information we have is difficult to quantify or of questionable quality may certainly be an issue, but it requires a brazen or nihilistic cynicism to dismiss it as useless and those who use it as "clueless".
I respectfully suggest as well that you may have missed the point of wikis such as the one linked. It is a community driven publishing system that can be updated at will in response to new information. In this particular case, the wiki also clearly states that this article is about a current event and the article may change in response to new information. Thus, a criticism seeming to be that the data is incomplete or incorrect is not really a relevant consideration, since the wiki was designed with the ability to incorporate that new data as it becomes available (and if better data does not become available, we are no worse off). The wiki provides us with not just the ability to make the comparison with what we know today, but to update the comparison with what we may know tomorrow. It is preferable to work with something today that'll give us structure and historical reference in the future rather than nothing at all.
All to say, your criticism is unclear, your citation is not useful, your conclusions are misguided. I'll say nothing of the tone I perceive and language you use, other than to suggest you may have issues with attitude and maturity, though that is speculative.
As you may infer, it took much more effort to address your concerns than it probably did for you to crack them off. Perhaps you should consider the consequences of your comments before you make such a post. You've added nothing to the discussion, you needlessly distract from useful conclusions and valuable efforts with misinformation, and you've wasted my time writing a constructive response. You could do us all a favour next time, and refrain from posting in such poor form.
The official figures provided by TEPCO and the Japanese government apparently didn't include the radiation released into the ocean as a result of the giant hole in the retaining wall.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
This is my fucking life, destroyed by people just as moronic as you, but with power.
I was in Japan when it happened. I still own a house 100 miles from the plant (no one can sell). I actually made a life changing decision based on this event and my sense that TEPCO and the government were lying.
Meanwhile clueless fucks like yourself spout crap without any action or risk. If the situation was as overblown as you make it seem, you would make tons of money investing in land around the area, yet no one is buying . . . Which means not just you but all other fucks who seem to share your idea on the situation are either financial fucktards or are just spewing bullshit because they can.
Either way, on the behalf of the victims (including myself), fuck you and fuck all those like you. May you remember this post when YOUR "oh, fuck" moment in life occurs.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
I think you're an anti-nuclear power shill.
Here you claim to work for the NRC (suspiciously no mention of supposed house ownership in Japan) http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2359418&cid=36960274
Here you claim to own a house near Fukushima. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2418782&cid=37340946
This time it is an apartmnet owned by a friend. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2418782&cid=37340482
Safecast.org (http://blog.safecast.org/) is a global radiation (etc) monitoring/reporting project that all Slashdotters should be aware of and support. They designed, built and deployed radiation monitors in Japan, USA, etc. Their mapping system records, uploads and displays tracks of drives around Japan (USA, etc) with results of the geotagged measurements appearing on the map. Their blog provides a good bit of information on the system and various drives. Additionally there are some great photo essays by Sean Bonner, etc linked on the site.