Kevin Mitnick Answers

Last week, you asked Kevin Mitnick questions about his past, his thoughts on ethics and disclosure, and his computer set-up. He's graciously responded; read on for his answers. (No dice on the computer set-up, though.) Thanks, Kevin. Do you own a Guy Fawkes Mask?
by blair1q

Do you own a Guy Fawkes mask, or have an opinion of Anonymous' activities?

Anon & Lulzsec
by zero0ne

What are your opinions on the actions of groups like Lulzsec & Anon? Do you feel that they will, in the end, expand freedom on the net or just help government tighten the noose on Internet restrictions?

Kevin Mitnick: Sorry, I do not own a Guy Fawkes mask.

I don't think you can look at Anonymous as a single collective group. There appears to be many factions of it. Some are out there performing hacktivist activities that are being pursued with the true desire of keeping information free and holding our leaders accountable for their actions. Performing civil disobedience through illegal activities is probably not the preferred method, but I can understand what motivates these individuals.

As far as Lulzsec and other groups under the Anonymous banner that are just doing it for the "lulz," it reminds me of the prankster activities that many hackers have been involved in the past. This is part of the culture. Many of the attacks performed by these groups were going after the low-hanging fruit, and those vulnerabilities should have never been open to compromise. We trust these companies with our personal information. It is their responsibility to secure that data to the best of their ability. However, every time a major hack occurs, we are so focused on the attackers and never on the company that left your private information available to be taken. The media feeds this notion.

I don't think that the actions of groups like Anonymous will have much effect on expanding freedom on the net. Though some of their causes may be worthwhile, when you have groups like Lulzsec that just do it for the "lulz," the government has never understood these types of motivations and move harder to prosecute to make an example. So, the answer to your question is no. I would expect law enforcement would just make it a higher priority to curtail the actions of these kinds of groups.

Do as I do?
by wiedzmin

Do you lead by example, as in encourage hackers to do what you did, so that they can end-up as famous and well-paid security consultants? Or are you more of a "do as I say not as I do" type of role models?

KM: My hacking was always for personal pursuits. I never did it to make money. Naturally, I would try to dissuade anyone involved in legally questionable activities. There are so many opportunities these days to satisfy the challenge of breaking into systems and/or networks without breaking the law.

Though the fact that I am able to work as a professional security consultant and public speaker today is a blessing, the price I had to pay for it was pretty high.

How did you choose your targets?
by Rizimar

When you were hacking and breaking into systems, how did you decide which ones to break into? Was it because of the difficulty/ease of doing it with different security setups? Or was it because of the actual people/corporations/entities behind the servers and what they stood for?

KM: Usually, there was something of personal interest to me. I hacked into companies that developed operating systems to look at the source code. The reason I wanted to look at the source code was to discover security vulnerabilities in the operating system(s) that I could exploit. My goal was to become the best at hacking into any system I desired. To me it was like playing the ultimate video game, but with real world danger and consequences.

Later when I became a fugitive, I compromised cellular phone handset manufacturers to gain access to the handset source code for two reasons: (1) to create invisibility by modifying the firmware in my cellular phone; and (2) for the trophy; the harder the target, the more challenging it was to me.

Hi, Kevin. I'm one of your victims.
by Remus Shepherd

Hi, Kevin. I was told that my credit card information was among the thousands you stole from Netcom, way back in the day. I won't ask you what you did with the credit card info you stole, that might cause problems with self-incrimination. I wouldn't want that, oh no.

So let me ask this: How does it feel to be a 'respected' member of the security community now, after having frightened and hurt so many people back then? How does it feel to have the hacker community regard you as a hero when you've done some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history? I guess what I'm really asking is, how well do you sleep at night? Honestly.

KM: I did take a copy of the entire Netcom database, which also included the subscriber's credit card information, depending on the subscriber's payment method. I was never interested in the credit card information itself, only the user information associated with it that would allow me to reset passwords of Netcom users. The fact is, I was not the only one with these credit cards numbers. That database had been circulating on the Internet for months. I was merely one of many that had access to this information. This entire story is detailed in my new book — Ghost in the Wires — and once you read it, my objective for this hack will become clearer.

Was your identity ever compromised? Was your personal data ever leaked? If so, it wasn't me! That's because I never profited from my hacking activities, and there was never any disclosure of what I had come across or any of the source code materials that I obtained.

You stated: "You've done some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history?" You really need to get your facts straight. You sound like the government prosecutor who once claimed I could dial into NORAD and whistle into the phone to launch a nuclear missile. Or like the prosecutors who argued I caused 300 million dollars worth of loss by reading proprietary source code. It was a ridiculous argument.

According to the Securities and Exchange Commission rules, if any of the victim companies in my case suffered a material loss, they are required to report it to their shareholders. Did Motorola, Nokia, Fujitsu, NEC, Sun, Digital, and other public companies report any losses attributable to my conduct to their shareholders? Not at all. So did all the above companies defraud their shareholders by failing to report a loss, or did the Federal prosecutors lie in order to get me a harsh sentence? You work it out.

I paid a heavy price for my activities. I sleep like a baby!

Is it cool any more?
by Hazel Bergeron

You have gone from hacker/cracker to security consultant via quite a difficult route. If you just wanted the money, there would have been far easier ways.

Today, the most well-known kiddies tend to do something high profile but requiring little technical brilliance and move quickly to "legitimate" jobs. The majority of "security consultants" don't really have much technical knowledge at all, being more public relations/ass-covering types.

With this in mind, what advice do you have to people who like to study security for its own sake? Should they keep quiet about what they do, developing an academic career so they can research to their heart's content without commercial pressures?

Or does everyone clever sell out in the end?

KM: First of all, I disagree with your assessment that the majority of security consultants don't really have much technical knowledge. I have working relationships with numerous security people that have substantial technical skills. I encourage others to pursue their passion in security in either the commercial world or in academia depending on their goals. Even in an academic career, your pursuits will be limited, as there will always be a line. For many security professionals, they continue to research security, even on their own time, to keep up with new developments and techniques.

Cybersecurity Companies?
by bigredradio

Kevin, do you suspect any collusion on the part of cybersecurity companies such as Kapersky Labs or Avast! and virus creators? If there were not so many exploits in the wild, would there be a billion-dollar anti-virus industry?

KM: I don't know about Kaspersky but I think it's ludicrous to assert that any anti-virus company would be involved with malware creators. These are large companies and the risk of being involved in this type of unethical behavior is too great.

Responsible Disclosure?
by gcnaddict

Should you find a security vulnerability (either in an open source project, a commercial product, or a company's hosted systems), what procedure would you consider "responsible disclosure" to the parties who are considered owners of the product? I recognize that each of the three cases listed above could vary significantly.

KM: I think you have to notify the developer of the product, so that they may create a solution for the vulnerability. They should be given a reasonable amount of time to correct the situation, and then it should be made public.

NOTE — Kevin clarified with this addition: Note too, I believe the software vendor ought to pay for the vulnerability information as security researchers should be paid for their time.

cybersecurity
by Anonymous

What cybersecurity threats do you see as the most dangerous to the Internet now?

Re:cybersecurity
by zero0ne

What threat do you see as the most dangerous in 2, 5 and 10 years?

KM: Malware is probably the most substantial threat. Not only because it is so prevalent and being crafted better to avoid detection, but also because a large majority of internet users are oblivious to the dangers involved with clicking unknown links, authorizing Java Applets, opening attachments from people they don't know, and are easily fooled by average phishing attacks. People are still the weak link, and even intelligent ones make poor decisions. Case in point, the recent spearfishing attacks on Google and RSA, which proved highly effective.

Looking into the future is difficult as technology progresses so rapidly. In the next few years, as more and more corporations move towards cloud computing, these servers loaded with information are going to be the new playground for hackers. Layers of security need to be applied in any cloud-computing environment to minimize the risk.

With the recent hacks on Certificate Authorities, I would count on SSL becoming obsolete in the future and being replaced with a new, more robust secure standard, since the "web of trust" is no longer a feasible model.

With the proliferation of consumer devices coming onto the market that are internet-ready, I would expect to see more attacks at the heart of these new technologies. New devices, especially those branded by names like Apple, Microsoft, and Google, always tend to draw the attention of hackers from all over the world.

Cyberwar?
by mewsenews

The minor political movement surrounding your incarceration would likely not happen today. Hacking has become a state-sponsored activity, with China attacking Google and America/Israel attacking Iran. Do you think your life would be a lot different if you were born 10 years later?

KM: If you were asking if the circumstances would have been different had my hacking occurred ten years later, then I would say yes. The prosecutors would not have been able to convince the Court that I was a serious National Security threat, which resulted in me being held in solitary confinement for nearly a year, based on ridiculous claim that I could launch a nuclear weapon by whistling into a phone. Also, they would not have been able to claim the damages were the total R&D costs associated with the development of source code, which I merely looked at, without distributing it. I think my sentencing and treatment in the justice system would have been much different, as they would not have been able to exaggerate the harm like the Government did in my case.

Computer Setup?
by Anonymous

What is your computer setup? I mean hardware, OS, software you use to work.

KM: You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

SSA
by Anonymous

Has the gal from the Social Security Administration claimed her kiss? if so, was she hot?

KM: No, I don't know if she was hot and she has yet to contact me.

Ham radio license?
by vlm

Are you going to fight to get back your ham radio license or is that all water under the bridge now?

KM: I did fight the FCC and still have my ham radio license. The FCC allowed me to retain my license because they deemed me fully rehabilitated after a long administrative court proceeding.

"Justice ... "
by capnkr

Having experienced "justice" of a rather harsh sort (IMO, & possibly yours, too :) ) given that what you did was relatively inconsequential despite the claims otherwise, do you now do any work towards helping keep the sort of experience you had from happening again to other hackers (note: *not* 'crackers')?

KM: I have, and I do. I don't want to see someone's curiosity or desire to learn how to break into systems land him or her into prison. I remember supporting Dmitry Sklyarov when he was arrested at Defcon for exposing a bug in Adobe's e-books. I remember joining a group of people that were protesting his arrest for alleged DMCA violations in Santa Monica, California a while back.

In the end...
by NabisOne

Was it worth it? Is there an upside to your experiences the last ten years?

KM: I have no regrets in regards to my hacking experiences. I have always had a passion for learning, solving difficult challenges, and satisfying my own curiosity.

However, I do regret the effects that my activities had on my family and the companies that were damaged by my actions. I can't undo the past, and can just move forward to try and help others keep themselves safe from those trying to do them harm.

My recent experiences of the last 10 years have been nothing short of a miracle. One word has changed that for me: authorization! I now get authorization from my clients to test their security controls.

Comments

CA's? What 'web of trust'?

[fatphil]

The CA setup using SSL has never relied on the /web of trust/ model (where you can say how much you trust our neighbours), it's always relied on the /chain of trust/ model (where all trust is inherited).

However, I agree that our CA setup should be clearly moribund now.

brave new world

[azalin]

If you were asking if the circumstances would have been different had my hacking occurred ten years later, then I would say yes. The prosecutors would not have been able to convince the Court that I was a serious National Security threat, which resulted in me being held in solitary confinement for nearly a year, based on ridiculous claim that I could launch a nuclear weapon by whistling into a phone. Also, they would not have been able to claim the damages were the total R&D costs associated with the development of source code, which I merely looked at, without distributing it. I think my sentencing and treatment in the justice system would have been much different, as they would not have been able to exaggerate the harm like the Government did in my case.

They might have used it as an excuse to label him a terrorist though. At least back then they had to work around the law to pull off such shady stuff...

Re:What comes after the book deal?

[Omnifarious]

He's been free for a long time, and I haven't seen any of those products. Near as I can tell he's become a relatively well respected security researcher specializing in pen-testing. And given his history, I expect him to be fairly good at that job.

He lets himself off the hook too easily

[chispito]

I really enjoyed his book, but it's clear that if you ask him, he hardly ever hurt anyone. It's hard to believe a lot of what he says, since it comes from someone who achieved most of his goals by nonstop lying.

Expected responses...

[Lumpy]

"If so, it wasn't me! That's because I never profited from my hacking activities, and there was never any disclosure of what I had come across or any of the source code materials that I obtained."

If anyone was expecting honest gritty answers they were nuts.

Honestly, he answered everything exactly the way I expected. Nothing at ALL that will be incriminating in any way, nothing revealing, PC and clean. Tow the line of "I was simply a curious kid that got into trouble! Help your local law enforcement!" response. and honestly after the legal and physical ass-raping they gave him I also would respond the same way.

The united state government gave him a loud and clear message," The constitution is a ruse we have in place to pacify the masses. If we get our hands on you we can do to you anything we want and your lawyers cant do shit about what we do to you." Want an example? let's trout out the ridiculous "whistle launch codes" stunt...

The Government pulled that on him as a clear sample of "we own you and can do what we want to you, so do what we tell you"

OF course all his answers are very PC and very clean. What I want to read is his autobiography he has hidden somewhere to be released upon his death that covers what REALLY happened and names names. I really hope he is writing a detailed and 100% honest book that exposes everything that he is afraid to talk about.

Re:Expected responses...

[jafac]

A lot of what he says sounds like the same canned rationalizations that were common in the "hacker" community in the 1980's and 1990's. Much of that became what was later known as the "Hacker ethic" and has, in my opinion, eclipsed into legend. Because when it comes down to it, when someone REALLY wants to do that - - - do the hard work of being a PROFESSIONAL computer security person, they quickly realize that they have two choices. They can work inside the law, or outside the law. Working outside the law, you throw your ethics and morals away, because you're making a living writing spambots and rootkits. Working inside the law, you need a reputation and trust, because the market is now saturated enough that unless you have a name LIKE "Kevin Mitnick", you're not going to get hired, if you've got a record. That means not getting caught, and that means staying on the straight and narrow.

The other difference is, there is a whole lot more learning opportunity out there now, in terms of open source code, than there was in the 1980's. For aspiring young coders looking to get into the security biz. (and then you find out, that in practice, 90% of the actual "work" is documentation, and covering your ass - for most).

Mitnick endured a gross miscarriage of justice at the hands of an inexperienced FBI, and a terrified financial and industrial community, who did not know how to react to the "Hacker code of ethics" and the trash-talk. They reacted much like the East India trading company reacted to Privateers (Pirates). (revocation of civil liberties). Unfortunately for the rest of us, this revocation was universal, and not limited to the law breakers. This was not Mitnick's fault.

In any case, I can certainly see why he dissembles like he does. It's the rationalization and justification he used to allow him to do these things in the first place. Being in solitary confinement for a year, I doubt that he had anybody else to "work things out with" - emotionally. It's a fine rationalization, but it's just that. It's not a highly-developed ethical and professional code. And people hiring him for security work are doing so for his practical reputation for effectiveness, but not necessarily out of professional responsibility.

Kevin should take a basic IT ethics class. If not to change how he reasons and rationalizes. . . to learn how to "talk the talk", to at least set a better example for a younger generation of security professionals, who are not going to be able to get by on "old skool hacker street-cred."

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Trepidity]

The response didn't seem that unreasonable to me. You accused him of "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history", which is absurd, because he didn't really damage much of anything. He's not even particularly notable as a "hacker"; he's more notable for the crazy overreaction than anything else.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Joehonkie]

So he adequately answered your question, and you have nothing to do but bitch? What contrition or remorse should he show, since you are unable to show you that he hurt you or any of his other supposed "victims" in any way? He clearly shows remorse for the people he DID hurt (family and some corporations), as well as a clear understanding that the best way to learn this security stuff is in the white hat area.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[teslafreak]

He's in a legit line of work now, helping secure companies against the same type of attacks he had used to take your information, and you think he hasn't reformed? Part of your last sentence pretty much sums it up, "And he always will be in my eyes"... There's just no convincing some people, and your hard headed line of thinking isn't really his fault.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Jane Q. Public]

First off, you are simply wrong. He does "show remorse". He has clearly and repeatedly stated that he wished he could take back the damage he has done, but cannot. What more do you want? For him to bow down and kiss feet whenever someone mentions his past crimes? Honestly, I don't understand what more you expect him to "show".

Second, there is plenty of evidence that Kevin has changed, you are just refusing to acknowledge it. He has become a highly respected member of a very suspicious industry, and has been now for years.

Just my opinion, but I think you're a nutcase.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Enderandrew]

He was already disproportionally punished, and is now actively working against hackers while discouraging people from breaking the law.

I can't imagine that he should continue to feel guilty because he has paid more than his fair share of punishment.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[vadim_t]

I agree with what he says.

While what he did wasn't the most ethical thing to do, I don't think it in any way qualifies as having done "some of the most amoral and harmful acts in modern computing history" by any measure. You've just got an axe to grind because you were personally affected. If you weren't, you'd probably care much less.

In any event, Kevin shows no remorse for being a criminal, which means he essentially still is one. Time served and a stamp of approval by the white hats doesn't matter; what matters is that a person grows from their experiences and becomes better. I see no evidence that Kevin is a better man than he was.

No. Legally he served his time, and that's it. What you're talking about is morality which has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

The people defending him should take note that their hero is a crook. And he always will be in my eyes, until I see some contrition and some remorse for what he's done.

I don't think he's a hero, nor a much of a villain. He's just some guy that messed with a few things he shouldn't have and paid rather too much for it. He's just one member of a very large list of people.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[GameboyRMH]

Did you read the reply at all, or his previous Slashdot Q&A article? He's shown plenty of remorse - a lot more than I would in his shoes to be honest, he didn't cause any real destruction or loss. See my post above

Re:What comes after the book deal?

[gknoy]

I think there's probably one lying around near the parking lot where you work. ;)

Re:Washed up

[I(rispee_I(reme]

I saw him on Montel Williams shilling for Lifelock "identity theft insurance". I know, opiate of the masses, but I just happened to be near an idiot box that was tuned to the show, and Montel's been good for a chuckle since the "MOUNTAIN! GET OUT OF MY WAY!" days.

Montel hypes him up as the big bogeyman hacker, then the Lifelock guy comes out and says, "Don't worry! I'll protect you! Sign up now and we'll send you a free shredder so Kevin Mitnick can't come and dig your bank info out of your trash can!"

It reminds me of bear-baiting, except this particular bear never seemed to have any real teeth or claws to begin with.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Shatrat]

I can't believe he can live with himself after not hurting so many people and not causing so much damage. I hope he burns in hell.

What is your computer setup?

[TheOtherChimeraTwin]

KM: You send me yours along with the IP address, and I'll tell you mine. Good try at information reconnaissance.

Oh please. The poor fanboy just wanted to have the same setup you are using. From your visit to Atlanta in 2008:

"In his luggage, they found a MacBook Pro, a Dell XPS M1210 laptop, an Asus 900 mini-laptop, three or four hard drives, numerous USB storage devices, some Bluetooth dongles, three iPhones, and four Nokia cell phones (with different SIM cards for different countries).

They also found a lock-picking kit and an HID proximity card spoofer that can be used to snag data stored on physical access cards by swiping it in front of them. The data can then be used to enter locked doors without having to make a forged access card. Mitnick says he used the device in a demonstration about security in his speech in Bogota, but that the customs agents' eyes lit up when they saw it, thinking it was a credit card reader.

(Source: Kevin Mitnick Detained in Atlanta for having computer equipment on flight)

Re:Anyone going to take him up on this?

[Anonymous Coward]

My IP address is 127.0.0.1, and I run Mac OSX.....

How much remorse?

[KingSkippus]

He's said he's sorry. He's assured you that he personally didn't directly cause you financial harm. What else do you want him to do?

As other have noted, this "most amoral and harmful acts" thing is lunacy. Were you frightened? Yeah, probably so. But causing you angst isn't the most amoral and harmful act in modern computing history. Draining your bank account and sending you and your family compelling death threats--now that would probably rank on up there. If he really could whistle into a phone and launch a nuclear missile and actually did it, yeah, that would rank on up there.

As it is, though, you come off as needlessly engaging in hyperbole because, as someone else pointed out, you have a personal ax to grind with the guy. I'm not saying that you weren't hurt by this, but certainly not to the level that you're trying to escalate it.

By the way, one thing I see notably absent from your question and your posts is anger at the company and/or companies that stored your information in a manner in which it was vulnerable to Kevin's attacks. While Kevin bears the lion's share of responsibility for the attacks, the companies certainly aren't blameless. This information--names, credit card info, etc.--is information that is foreseeably valuable to hackers, and they should have taken better precautions to secure it. Have you expressed your outrage to Netcom as well, or are you under the impression that they were merely innocent victims like you, helpless against the mean and evil hackers?

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Raenex]

he like many others see information as something that should be open

So naive. Check the answer to the question about his "hardware, OS, software you use to work". It's always other people's information that should be free.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[Cabriel]

You are in the dangerous position of not looking for justice. He committed an act, was punished for it in a way the government thought was appropriate at the time, and now no longer commits the same acts without being granted permission. He cannot still be a criminal if he's not committing criminal acts. What you are looking for is vengeance and instilling punishment for thought crimes. It's time for you to let the past go and move on with your life.

Re:Washed up

[drwho]

I used to hack (dark side) at the same time but in a more restricted manner than Mitnick (I was never on the run). People accuse him of selling out, of being fake, or exaggerated. To some extent, he has sold out - sold up, and made the best of his situation. He paid dearly for his misdeeds, and had prosecutors lie in order for him to wind up with incarceration a lot longer than he deserved. Don't you think he's entitled to a bit of slack? Shouldn't he be able to make a little money on the side? I haven't bought any of his books, though I have been tempted to. I understand why they bother people, but you have to put them and Mitnick's life in perspective: He spent his youth as a hacker, and then years as a prisoner, then released and not allowed to touch computers (for a while) - what else did have to do to support himself? He did the best he could. What else could he do, sink into obscurity and desperation (ala Bill Landreth)? It's not like he could just casually take a job as a SysOp somewhere; his name is too widely known.

How good of a hacker was he, during his heyday? I'd say he was pretty good, from what I could tell. He wasn't as social as many of the others, but he did trade information with other hackers (including myself). He wasn't as reckless as some others who also had great talent (Mark Tabas), even though he was eventually caught, so he must have made some mistakes. He wasn't a destructive bastard, a gangster, a spy, or any other of a myriad nasties. But, when someone has skills which make them a good black-hat, this influences their attainment of other skills. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that he is more than an average competent programmer (and I do not claim to be any better). He has a broad knowledge of systems and methods, but these systems are often twenty to thirty years old. Who knows what MIZAR is these days? I am in the same basket - lots of old knowledge, much of the technical stuff is irrelevant these days. There are others skills, hunches, and an intuition brought by years of experience which make Grand Old Hackers surprising in the ways go about things, and difficult to predict.

Kevin is doing what he does best, as a media figure and security consultant. I doubt any of you naysayers could do much better than if you were in his shoes, post-prison.

Maybe a couple of you might recognize my handle. But I am not famous. I paid for my crimes, but luckily did not have to pay nearly a high price as Kevin Mitnick did.

Re:Without remorse there is no rehabilitation.

[GameboyRMH]

You like to redefine damage to mean physical things or a real loss.

I'm not saying that at all. If he stole your credit card number and bought stuff with it, that would be damage. If he broke into your WoW account and transferred your goods to his character, that would be damage. Breaking in and looking at stuff...breaking in could be compared to trespassing and it is comparable to breaking & entering by picking a lock, but that's not damage.

And looking at corporate software on a business server is hardly as personal or creepy as breaking into a house and sniffing panties.

Re:Well.

[TheSeventh]

Well, he did steal a few people's identities, as well as who knows how many people's cellular accounts. Running up tens of thousands of dollars in cell phone bills for all of those people, with cell rates around $1 a minute.

I don't think what he did was deserving of the punishment and poor treatment he received, but he did cause problems for a lot of people.

Another thing not mentioned in his book is how many people might have lost their jobs for being too trusting to the "engineer calling from the IT security department of their company", because the company didn't have better policies in place. I'm certain some of those people he social-engineered had to have been fired, and from the stories, some of them probably deserved it.

But let's not boil it down to taking trophies for personal use when it was a lot more than that.