Foxconn's Brazil Plan Stalled

I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by sethstorm · 2011-09-30 11:37 · Score: -1, Troll

Is Foxconn doubting that the workforce will be as pliant as it is in China? That's the only skillset that matters at that company.

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Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by Tharsman · 2011-09-30 12:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

In all seriousness: I have a close friend with family in Brazil. Last time he was there, one of his uncles was talking about his job: he mines gold. I am not entirely familiar with the process, but he mixes mercury with water and ore with his bare hands to do... I am not sure what.
When my friend's jaw dropped and told his uncle that he was killing himself, his uncle just told him, in less polite words "you are a real pu$$y boy, aren't you?"
Point? I am sure as stressful as the conditions in a Foxconn facility may resemble slavery, it can't be worse than what many are doing to "stay alive" already.
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by vbraga · 2011-09-30 13:09 · Score: 4, Informative

Well, this kind of gold mining is not a common activity in Brazil. It's actually downright illegal but you can find a few miners doing this in remote areas, specially in the North, near the Guyana borders. I don't think the country is as bad as you seems to think it is. For sure, there's a lot of people living in the most abject condition, specially in North and Northeastern Brazil, but for most, it's just a normal country although a poor one. As a software developer I make more or less the same I'd make working in Southern Europe, for example.
Most of large electronics equipment manufacturers are located in the Manaus Industrial Park. I've had the chance to tour some facilities - both here and abroad - and safety conditions in most large Manaus employers are equivalent to what you expect elsewhere. Salaries are low, both so is the living cost. Work week is 44 hours and this is usually respected in industrial companies (overtime is common for professionals, almost everywhere in the world as far as I know). 30 paid vacation days per year, which is actually better than some other places.
The biggest problem, labor wise, in Brazil is law enforcement. The country is downright unable to enforce labor laws through the country. If you're working in a company that respects the law you're in a rather fine situation. If you don't have a job or have one outside "the legal economy" (like your friend family doing gold mining), then you're downright screwed.
Even then, there's universal health care and free public education everywhere. Quality is not that good, most middle or upper classes will have private insurance and schooling, but it's there including for everyone even expensive therapies (like HIV, or cancer, and so on) are included in the universal coverage.
In the end, I'm pretty sure that there are way better places to be. But it is not bad like you seem to think, and most people have way better conditions than being an almost slave in a Foxconn factory.

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Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:13 · Score: 0

This is not commonplace here. Mining used to be bigger, but only in very few places.
Yes, small independent gold miners use mercury to separate the gold from the raw ore, and they use a blowtorch to evaporate the mercury afterwards. It's nasty for their health. It used to be common, but no more.
This is not to say that we don't have poverty. We do and we have a lot of it.
Still, Brazil is far from being like China, at least in the slavery department.
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by tsotha · 2011-09-30 15:13 · Score: 3, Informative

I am not entirely familiar with the process, but he mixes mercury with water and ore with his bare hands to do... I am not sure what.
Gold and mercury form an amalgam. The idea is to crush the ore, which is something like 0.001% gold, then mix it with mercury. The gold dissolves into the mercury and the rock doesn't. After you've run enough ore through the mercury you drain it out and heat it to boil off the mercury, leaving only the gold.
And yeah, he's killing himself. When you boil off the mercury it turns into vapor and does Very Bad Things to anyone who breathes it and also pollutes the hell out of the countryside. There are 150 year old mining sites in the western US that still have unsafe levels of mercury.
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by hjf · 2011-10-01 01:03 · Score: 0

I thought the Manaus area workforce was mostly natives they made come down from trees and put some clothes on...
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by vbraga · 2011-10-01 01:26 · Score: 1

At least my former employer Manaus office is mostly manned by people from Southeastern or Southern Brazil but it's a software development company. I might be wrong today, since it has been a while since I was there. Industrial workforce it's probably most composed by natives. Anyway, skilled labor shortage is a serious problem. It became common to do some recruiting in Argentina or Uruguay since Brazilian salaries are way higher then theirs it's easy to hire, and there's no lack of skilled people in our Southern neighbors. I've seen some recruiting drives in Portugal and in Japan (mostly aimed at Brazilian expats).

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English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-06 08:15 · Score: 0

"Even then, there's universal health care and free public education everywhere. Quality is not that good (...)"
That's pretty good euphemism. People who can only rely on public education and universal health care finish school without knowing how to read properly and die before they can receive an organ transplant.
Re:I didnt know slavery was a skillset. by vbraga · 2011-10-11 02:42 · Score: 1

That's pretty good euphemism. People who can only rely on public education and universal health care finish school without knowing how to read properly and die before they can receive an organ transplant.
Well, it's not that simple. There's a few outstanding public hospitals like the Sarah Kubitscheck Rehabilitation Network (Brasilia, Rio and Salvador, if I recall correctly) and INCA (Rio). HIV treatment is actually world class. The same goes for education, CAP/UFRJ, Colegio Naval are a few public schools that usually rank among the best schools in the country.
The biggest problem of SUS ("Unified Health System") is that is actually unlimited in coverage, but resources are limited. SUS is by law forced to offer even sex change operations, for example. Some plastic surgeries are also included. Reproductive medicine, too. In a world with limited resources this means that is actually stretched far beyond what it can accomplish. The best thing would be to scale back coverage and focus in essential needs.
Unfortunately this is impossible without a complete change of the Brazilian constitution and of the established legal practice. The concept of "direito adquirido", where if a person receives an entitlement for a good length of time it cannot be taken away, is widely accepted by judges. Any scaling back of social security benefits would be crushed in court. Brazil actually expends with social security, per capita, the same amount Sweden does. But the money is siphoned out of the system by corruption and by senseless benefits (a 20 years old married to a 80 years old is entitled to a life long pension after the 80 years old partner dies, even if the 20 year old is not financial dependent on the 80 years old.).
Another bad aspect of the Brazilian legal system is that the government is bound by law to "reduce inequality between states" which, de facto, means penalizing successful states with high taxes and expending an incredible amount of money in pork projects in the least successful states. Those pork projects are usually populist projects, allowing populist (and corrupt) politicians to gain votes. The same populist politicians will vote for more pork expending, perpetuating themselves into power.
The best for Brazil would be an all encompassing reducing of the scope of social benefits, driving populists out of the power, minimizing the amount expend on pork. Unfortunately no politician advocates that and the Workers Party administration is ever increasing the pork expending and government intervention on the economy. If things don't change soon, I'm thinking about just jumping ship and migrating somewhere else.

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Article fule of junk - opinion by TaoPhoenix · 2011-09-30 11:40 · Score: 0, Troll

I never believe corporate statements anymore.

Brazil is the next Dark Horse Country after China. But they totally managed to escape notice.

How is that!?

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Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Tharsman · 2011-09-30 12:32 · Score: 0

Because China is starting to actually develop into a civilized country. They are going through an accelerated modernization process. They are doing what the US took about a century in about 10 years, and they are doing it all in large scale.
It's not necessarily admirable, since they are just copying existing processes, but they are getting attention that suddenly notices the parts that are still in a "pre-civil-rights" status.
Brazil is still the same Brazil it was years ago and from what I hear is only regressing, not evolving, so it has nothing to call the world attention it's way.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:50 · Score: 0

All right, mod this flamebait! Whatever!
If Brazil is a "dark horse", why does it attract so many investments? Why are so many foreign companies coming to Brazil and why did so many others came to Brazil decades ago?
Yes, we have corruption problems. So does Italy, Greece and a lot of so-called "first world countries".
We have poverty, but it's nothing like Somalia or Vietnam. We still have a long way to go until we catch up to american standards, where the poor are few enough to hide in the ghettos.
So, if you want to know more, just read about it.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by maple_shaft · 2011-09-30 13:47 · Score: 1

All right, mod this flamebait! Whatever!
If Brazil is a "dark horse", why does it attract so many investments? Why are so many foreign companies coming to Brazil and why did so many others came to Brazil decades ago?
Yes, we have corruption problems. So does Italy, Greece and a lot of so-called "first world countries".
We have poverty, but it's nothing like Somalia or Vietnam. We still have a long way to go until we catch up to american standards, where the poor are few enough to hide in the ghettos.
So, if you want to know more, just read about it.
Brazil is getting so much investment and attention lately for a very simple geographical reason. It is within timezones that make communication easier and more suitable to the American business day. Off-shoring of software development and IT to India has been a logistical nightmare and on top of that the best talent in India is commanding more and more money. The payoffs for offshoring to India are becoming smaller and smaller and the logistical problems are a leading cause for IT project failures associated with it. Brazil is easier to communicate with (corporations get preference on the international network), they have a large population of well educated IT professionals and cost of living is low so they are somewhat more affordable than equivalently skilled American talent.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 14:49 · Score: 1

Because your transexuals are so much hotter than all the others.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Alex+Belits · 2011-09-30 19:25 · Score: 1

american standards, where the poor are few enough to hide in the ghettos.
lol wut

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Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by drinkypoo · 2011-09-30 23:24 · Score: 1

Brazil is not the next China, it is the next Africa. The Amazon is on the edge of collapse and they are about to try to build a dam project which is going to have serious ecological implications as well
As for why they WANT to move to Brazil, it has to do with shipping.

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Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 04:51 · Score: 1

It's not necessarily admirable, since they are just copying existing processes, but they are getting attention that suddenly notices the parts that are still in a "pre-civil-rights" status.
Copying existing processes may not be innovative, but it's a whole lot better than just stagnating and staying a crappy third-world country. Yeah, their human rights record leaves a lot to be desired, but what about other countries like Myanmar, North Korea, and many more? At least China's actually improving, and at a pretty good rate too. 60 years ago, the US had a rather shitty human rights record too, at least for certain parts of the population. If China can improve in 20 years as much as the US did in 60 years, that seems like a pretty good achievement.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Tharsman · 2011-10-01 05:04 · Score: 1

I think I used the wrong word. It IS admirable that they are leaping out of the middle ages, i just meant the path they are taking is not exactly, as you said, an innovative one.
I guess the perception of china is two fold. In one hand you have people that were born from parents that themselves were born with the current level of legally protected human rights. For these individuals, any country that has not given their citizens the same levels of human rights is "evil". To be honest, it's as silly of an expectation as saying monkeys are evil for not evolving into tool using animals. Despite globalization, china is it's own country with it's own "civil evolution".
The other point, is that China, is becoming the country equivalent of the "new rich" families dressing badly in a high class charity dinner, everyone starts talking about them even if the "new rich" family happened to be the wealthiest one. In similar fashion, when we see Chinese government do things we don't consider appropriate, we are very quick to judge.
Despite the current government imposed friction, I'd not be shocked (nor be alive to be) if China found itself in a better quality of living state than the United States within 100 years.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 05:38 · Score: 1

I'd not be shocked (nor be alive to be) if China found itself in a better quality of living state than the United States within 100 years.
That won't be hard. The US is in a downward spiral right now, and will have a lower quality of living most likely in 100 years than it does now. Just look at the Roman Empire: people in that region had a much better standard of living in 200 than they did in 600, and it took over a thousand years for Europe to get back to where it was during Roman times. That's sorta where we're headed now. We can only hope the other industrialized nations will be able to insulate themselves from the US's fall, but with the way things are going in Europe right now, it doesn't look good.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:37 · Score: 1

Some people really talk about what they don't know...
The goddamn dam is like 2,000 miles from Amazon!
I didn't believe xenophobia was a serious problem among IT professionals, which would have better knowledge than the average person.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by jobdrb · 2011-10-02 14:53 · Score: 1

I am Brazilian, the currently economy growth, come mostly because goverment start to help poor people, with projects like "Bolsa Familia" which is a help of money (until R$173/month, less than a 100U$ for currently exchange) to help they eat and a project called "Minha Casa Minha Vida" which give money to buy new houses for less incoming people with subsiding interests. There are also a very huge investment in university education. But ..... Even, with high education or skill, does not mean that you can get basic level of life of an american or european with same level of income. Brazil is expensive! The big problem here is moral! And I cant see a cure for this. Employers pay ridiculous salaries even they get millions of profits, they also evade a lot of tax. Mostly justify their crime (of course, employers cant evade tax) saying that the politicians stole, or that they don't give good service from government. But, these very very corrupt politician are elected using money from these un-honest companies and people. Almost small and middle company evade tax. The big group in congress are "Ruralistas" people that represent the interest of big rural owners, that mostly are in the middle age era. Currently they are near to approve a new regulation in which they could throw away every tree that are remaining in the soil. .....
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Coren22 · 2011-10-03 04:27 · Score: 1

Link? I have no idea what either of you are talking about as I don't seem to get all that much news about South America (of which Brasil is only a small part...)

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Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-03 09:15 · Score: 1

Wikipedia's article about Brazil is a good start. Check the Geography section. You'll see that Brazil occupies almost 48% of South America. So, Brazil is not a small part of it at all.
Yes, the Amazon rainforest is shrinking day after day, but not even close to the "edge of collapse". There are better sources of information, but Wikipedia provides some, like:
"The mean annual deforestation rate from 2000 to 2005 (22,392 km2 or 8,646 sq mi per year) was 18% higher than in the previous five years (19,018 km2 or 7,343 sq mi per year).[37] Deforestation has declined significantly in the Brazilian Amazon since 2004.[38]"
Better laws, better enforcement and better pressure from NGOs like WWF has shown results. It could be better, but it's progressing.
There is one hydroelectric plant that the government is trying to get built since 1985, called "Belo Monte". Ecologists and native brazilians (our "indians") are trying to stop the government since then. I tried to google it, but I can't find any articles in English. This dam would be built in the Amazon, covering a very large area, but nothing as big as Tucuruí or Itaipú. The natives are complaining that the dam's reservoir will cover ancient cemetaries and stuff like that.
The dam I was talking about -- which I think is the only one being built right now -- is at the border between Rio and Minas Gerais, thousands of miles away from the Amazon.
Re:Article fule of junk - opinion by Coren22 · 2011-10-04 02:03 · Score: 1

I was specifically speaking of the dam, thank you for the enlightening though.

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APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?

Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 11:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

Let us get this out of the way, since there is bound to have lots of posts similar to mine. I will make it short:

I am a Brazilian living in Brazil and it sucks...it really really sucks over here.

Re:Brazil by TaoPhoenix · 2011-09-30 11:55 · Score: 0

Yeah sorry AC, sux to be you, but globally I have a 20 year watch on Brazil.

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Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:05 · Score: -1

Let us get this out of the way, since there is bound to have lots of posts similar to mine. I will make it short:
I am a Brazilian living in Brazil and it sucks...it really really sucks over here.
sorry to hear that AC, but i am also a Brazilian living in Brazil and it rlz... most of the time at least
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:22 · Score: 0

I work for a company that does business globally (and of course in Brazil). The new protectionism there is pretty bad. For example, we can't buy a computer for use in Brazil unless it was made in Brazil. I don't know if that type of racket flows down to the normal folks or if it is just for multinational businesses (similar to how in Nigeria now Oil Companies can only buy computers made in Nigeria, but anyone else can buy any computer they want). Anyway, we have IT staff in Brazil and are trying to ramp up our services there. However, we can't even get computers for the employees because the government hasn't figured out their own rules yet.
Re:Brazil by vbraga · 2011-09-30 13:13 · Score: 1

Did you try buying Dell? Or HP? Or just walking to the nearest corner computer store? That's how I usually do it...
Market protection for computer products was abolished in the early 90s... someone is screwing you, but it's not the government :)

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Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:21 · Score: 0

Yes that is right - all is good while the party lasts, but as soon as you need to do some serious shit the fucked up nature of bureaucracy gone wild comes a crashin' down on your head. I live here as well and I know exactly what you are talking about... I could go on for hours but (just like Brazil), it's not worth the effort....
Re:Brazil by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-09-30 13:46 · Score: 1

For example, we can't buy a computer for use in Brazil unless it was made in Brazil.
So Brazil is unwilling to have foreign players who disregard worker health and environmental issues (like China) to devalue their own labor market? Impressive.
Re:Brazil by AngryDeuce · 2011-09-30 14:11 · Score: 1

Wow, wish they favored American-made goods over foreign imports here in the US. Our economy might not be in the fucking toilet if they did...
Re:BRAZIL by morcego · 2011-09-30 15:35 · Score: 1

You make 3 points on your post. Lemme address them one at a time.
#1 Not enough skilled labor
IBM, Ericsson, Motorola and others would disagree with you. However, there is a different between "not enough skilled labor" and "not enough unemployed skilled labor". If you mean the later, then you are write, but you should have expressed yourself better.
#2 Price on imported parts
Do your homework. There is the Manaus Free Trade Zone. There is where most of the companies that need to import parts put their factories. Exactly so they don't have to pay 50% tariff on them, and all that. The rules there are very, very different. Several companies keep their factory lines there, while keeping R&D on other parts of the country, where they can get labors more easily.
#3 Government and Customs
"the Brazilian government is screwing their people over" - Couldn't have said better myself.

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morcego
Re:Brazil by korean.ian · 2011-09-30 16:19 · Score: 1

Uh you wanna know why Brazil's economy was in dire straits through the 70s and 80s? Because they practiced exactly that policy. It's called import substitution, and it crushes innovation and efficiency like Comcast does small municipal ISPs.
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 17:24 · Score: 0

Market protection for computer products was abolished in the early 90s.
They ended the outright ban, but they still have insanely high tariffs on imported electronics.
Re:BRAZIL by Confusador · 2011-09-30 19:06 · Score: 1

However, there is a different between "not enough skilled labor" and "not enough unemployed skilled labor". If you mean the later, then you are write, but you should have expressed yourself better.
I think he expressed himself perfectly well. If all the skilled labor is already employed, then there is not enough for any more businesses to move down there.
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 19:40 · Score: 0

I only have one question for you: Do you play Mordekasier? Huehuehuehuhe...
Re:BRAZIL by morcego · 2011-09-30 20:07 · Score: 1

No. If all skilled labor is already employed, then there is not enough for any more business THAT WANT TO PAY PEANUTS to move down here. If they offer competitive salaries, they will get all the employees they need.

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morcego
Re:Brazil by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 04:58 · Score: 1

So Brazil is unwilling to have foreign players who disregard worker health and environmental issues (like China) to devalue their own labor market?
And how many computers does Brazil manufacture each year? Zero? I'm pretty sure there's no fabs there to make CPUs.
As for worker health and environmental issues, that's easy to deal with: you pass laws to protect workers and the environment, and then you enforce them. If your government and police are too corrupt to enforce the laws properly, you only have yourself to blame.
At the end, it all comes down to jobs and the economy. Do you want high-tech jobs, and a manufacturing economy, or not? Obviously, Brazil hasn't succeeded in getting these things on its own, so it needs foreign help to bring those jobs there. Otherwise we'd be seeing motherboards and the like flowing out of Brazil without any help from Foxconn.
Re:Brazil by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 05:08 · Score: 1

There's a slight problem with the idea of favoring locally-made goods to foreign imports: what if you really need those imports (computers are kinda vital to the economy and business these days), and you don't make them yourself? Putting up some stiff tariffs isn't going to magically make cutting-edge technology and manufacturing industries pop up in your country. Obviously, Brazil's been trying that route, and nothing's happened.
Tariffs are good if you already have an existing industry you want to protect from cheaper foreign competition. For instance, if you make steel, and want to protect your steel industry from cheaper foreign steel, you can put up a tariff, and that forces the foreign steel to be the same price or more than the domestic steel. It helps if you have multiple, competing domestic companies however, so you don't end up with basically a monopoly that can set prices to whatever it wants, because that'll hurt all the industries that rely on that supplier. Or, if you make cars, and want to protect those companies from cheaper foreign-made cars; a tariff will do that. But if you don't make steel or cars, slapping a tariff on those imports isn't going to magically make those industries appear. What if your country doesn't even have any significant iron ore deposits? Or can't generate much electricity reliably (you need tons of electricity to run steel mills)? Then you're just screwing yourself with a steel tariff, because it's impossible to develop a domestic industry. Or what if you're Bolivia and enact a car tariff? How on earth would a country as backwards as Bolivia ever create a car manufacturing industry, at least without a lot of foreign help?
America of course is not like Bolivia, and does have a skilled labor force, lots of natural resources, and plenty of home-grown technology. But Brazil can't claim the same. They're wiping out their rainforest, they don't have much of a skilled labor force, and they certainly aren't any kind of technology or manufacturing leader. Enacting tariffs is just going to hurt them.
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 05:09 · Score: 0

Let us get this out of the way, since there is bound to have lots of posts similar to mine. I will make it short:
I am a Brazilian living in Brazil and it sucks...it really really sucks over here.
I disagree. I'm 34 making good money for one of the biggest US corporations in IT doing project management (I work for North American clients, telecommuting).
Labor laws here are very protective of workers. It ensures that I get 30 days vacation every year (i always take only 20 though, and get money back for the other 10), get an extra salary once year (ie: get paid for 13 months in a given year). All overtime is paid (anything over 40 hours a week), and weekend/night shift work has all sorts of adders in my pay check. This is the law, I'm not lucky in my particular assignment.
I paid of my mortgage this month (30 year loan). I have no credit card debt or car payments. I travel abroad on vacation twice a year, and still have enough to save every month. I get great medical insurance from my employer, but even if I didn't have that there is the public system, as a last resort (everything is treated here for free). People are so friendly and very curious and helpful to foreigners. Food is amazing, entertainment is cheap, and moral values are very progressive.
I lived 8 years in Canada and the US. Of course there are all sorts of issues related to living in a developing nation, with high rates of poverty. But skilled workers and most middle class here are currently living the dream.
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 07:32 · Score: 0

there's a Motorola factory that makes CPUs...
Re:Brazil by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-10-01 07:45 · Score: 1

As for worker health and environmental issues, that's easy to deal with: you pass laws to protect workers and the environment, and then you enforce them.

That wasn't my point. You can pass health and environmental laws as much as you want - the problem is that it makes it more expensive to manufacture in your country. So manufacturing shifts to places where there are no such laws, or they are not enforced - like China - and the resulting cheap products get imported into your country. Now the remainder of your manufacturing cannot compete with cheap products, and goes out of business. So you end up with good laws, but nothing to enforce them on.
The only way labor protection laws work is when you're also protectionist. Otherwise it's a global race to the bottom that you take part in whether you want to or not.
Re:Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 08:29 · Score: 0

For those of us who only have the 'neutral' information of wikipedia and the like, what is so bad about it?
Re:Brazil by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 13:05 · Score: 1

The only way labor protection laws work is when you're also protectionist.
The only way protectionism works is when you actually have something to protect. If there's no manufacturing in your country, then having "protectionist" laws isn't going to do anything but make prices much higher for your citizens. So if you want to get manufacturing there, you either need to get the manufacturers into your country somehow (and then change the labor and environmental laws after the factories are built, locking them in), or build up your own domestically-owned industry. If you're not going to bother putting any effort into building your own domestic industries, then your protectionist laws aren't going to help you, they're just going to harm your economy.
Re:Brazil by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-10-01 13:18 · Score: 1

If you're not going to bother putting any effort into building your own domestic industries, then your protectionist laws aren't going to help you, they're just going to harm your economy.
True. I would assume that the country with size and population of Brazil would rather build its industry, though, and would, in fact, already have some.
Re:Brazil by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:48 · Score: 1

I can buy a Dell for pocket change here, directly from Dell, 3-yr warranty (1st year on-site).
Most companies here have contracts with them. Premium support, replacement, technology refreshes...
I couldn't care less, as I don't do Windows.
Re:Brazil by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2011-10-01 23:53 · Score: 1

Labor laws here are very protective of workers. It ensures that I get 30 days vacation every year (i always take only 20 though, and get money back for the other 10), get an extra salary once year (ie: get paid for 13 months in a given year). All overtime is paid (anything over 40 hours a week), and weekend/night shift work has all sorts of adders in my pay check. This is the law, I'm not lucky in my particular assignment.
Interesting. You know, it's almost as if all that "free" stuff you're getting isn't really "free," but has to be taken out of someone else's hide. Nah.... what am I saying, it doesn't work that way, right?

I'm not surprised... by Third+Position · 2011-09-30 11:44 · Score: 1

It's not like Brazil had any obvious advantages over China. Apparently they were relying on some special breaks from the government. Absent those, they're prolly better off staying in China.

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American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!

Re:I'm not surprised... by tmcb · 2011-09-30 11:56 · Score: 1

Brazil has a very protectionist economy. In the last 20 years (roughly), for every multinational enterprise that manifests some interest in settling on the country, lengthy rounds of negotiation are taken, mostly for discussing tax incentives.
Re:I'm not surprised... by chord.wav · 2011-09-30 12:32 · Score: 1

It's not like Brazil had any obvious advantages over China.
May I suggest a few keywords that might change your mind?
Rio
Havaianas
Carnaval
Garotas
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:02 · Score: 1

Brazil is not so protectionist anymore like in the 50's and 60's. Like we use to say, Brazil is "spreading the legs" to foreign companies.
Contrary to what have been said in some other comments, foreign companies get tax breaks and huge incentives to come here. Some of them get free land and, in places where there's no infrastructure (power, water, etc.), the government provides it for free. Our president's "Worker's Party" strongest campaign argument was "creating jobs for the people".
Brazilian companies get nothing. Small businesses have to get loan from private banks at 5% per month interest!! The BNDES, which stands for "National Bank for Development" won't give small startups a f***ing dime!
I know it because I am a small business owner here in Brazil...
I wish foreign companies paid the same as we pay to get in business over here. I also have to say that I wish the government used that tax money to benefit the population, not their own bank accounts.
Re:I'm not surprised... by keeboo · 2011-09-30 13:11 · Score: 1

It's not like Brazil had any obvious advantages over China.
May I suggest a few keywords that might change your mind? Rio Havaianas Carnaval Garotas
This is exactly the kind of garbage that make people abroad think that Brazil is only about Carnaval, women, beaches and Amazon forest.
And who often propagate that are people from Rio de Janeiro (an overrated shithole) and Northeastern Region.. Which are the most violent and underdeveloped parts of Brazil.
Re:I'm not surprised... by mabhatter654 · 2011-09-30 13:54 · Score: 2

The main problem I'd that Brazil is missing the boat here big time. Apple wants Foxconn in Brazil so they can sell iThings IN BRAZIL for reasonable prices... That's the whole point of the extortionist tariffs and customs process... And their government is screwing up the deal.
I mean iPads, in the western hemisphere again... That's a big industrial coup even if it is Brazil.
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:15 · Score: 0

Hmm... the government wants its part. Foxxconn pays the Chinese government its dues, AND it will send extreme amounts of US$ out of Brazil (more than what it will cause to get into the country, otherwise _it would not be a profitable multinational corporation_).
You should know what kind of issues happen when the US$ gets rare inside a country nowadays, AND you're not the US federal gov. which will just happly print more and increase the internal debt.
So no, the brazilian gov. doesn't have to put its ass up and let the chinese shove their crap in.
All other complaints about excessive taxing, absurd issues with the seaports, and customs are valid, though.
Re:I'm not surprised... by Alex+Belits · 2011-09-30 19:36 · Score: 1

5% per month interest!!
That's 80% interest per year -- such a loan is impossible to pay unless someone is selling drugs.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:I'm not surprised... by menkhaura · 2011-09-30 22:14 · Score: 1

Pal, I live here, and this country is surreal; I can attest that what the GP told is true. 5% per MONTH, only that's not for businesses, that's for people. Enterprises pay a little less.

--
Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
Re:I'm not surprised... by fbobraga · 2011-09-30 23:34 · Score: 1

coisa escrota... deve ser de carioca mesmo....
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 01:10 · Score: 0

I wish i paid like foreign companies, not that they paid like me.
To wish the worst for the others is on the brazilian soul, and that's why it can't go forward.
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 02:25 · Score: 0

It's not like Brazil had any obvious advantages over China.
May I suggest a few keywords that might change your mind?
Rio
Havaianas
Carnaval
Garotas
what a bullshit post: it offended me, from São Paulo - Brasil
Re:I'm not surprised... by Alex+Belits · 2011-10-01 06:09 · Score: 1

Then no one can use those loans for anything legitimate, and businesses have to accumulate capital on their own, 19-century-style.
Not to say that it doesn't work at all, but if this is the policy in the whole country, it can only work along with heavy protectionism because then locals won't be able to compete with foreigners who can grow faster because they have access to loans.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 08:26 · Score: 0

It's not like Brazil had any obvious advantages over China
Well, they're certainly closer to the rich target markets for tech; you can ship to the east and south coasts of the US without going through any canals or pirate zones. You can get from Brazil to Europe that way, too. At the same time, the labor costs are still, at least theoretically, very low. And the risk of the kind of shenanigans we hear about Chinese mainland factories are theoretically also much lower (industrial espionage from competing Chinese local firms, or the factory owner running an extra shift off the books).
Re:I'm not surprised... by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:54 · Score: 1

I can only say: BINGO!
Re:I'm not surprised... by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:56 · Score: 1

Wanna know another inherent characteristic of Brazilian people? I think you're brazilian too, so you already know: HYPOCRISY.
Re:I'm not surprised... by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:59 · Score: 1

what a bullshit post: it offended me, from São Paulo - Brasil
I'm pretty much offended too. I didn't know xenophobia was at these levels here at /. .
Maybe this guy is one of those "sexual tourists" that come to Brazil and pay to have sex with little children in the northeast.
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 16:32 · Score: 0

Brazil is a country where normal logic doesn't apply.
As the GP said, it is a SURREAL land.
tmegapscm
Re:I'm not surprised... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-04 03:46 · Score: 0

This is exactly the kind of garbage that make people abroad think that Brazil is only about Carnaval, women, beaches and Amazon forest.
And who often propagate that are people from Rio de Janeiro (an overrated shithole) and Northeastern Region.. Which are the most violent and underdeveloped parts of Brazil.
So say the Paulista(nos) who do nothing but circle-jerk over their congested polluted corrupted crimeland of an ugly ugly city.

It's up to Brazil by msobkow · 2011-09-30 11:52 · Score: 1

If Brazil wants to play on the international markets, they'll have to do something about their customs procedures.

Tax breaks for companies moving into an area are pretty much standard nowadays, unfortunately. I wish I could demand tax breaks like corporations do.

I wonder if the Brazilian government is trying to pin Foxconn down to provide suicide prevention services before they're allowed to depress and demoralize the Brazilian employees.

--
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.

Re:It's up to Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:18 · Score: 0

Yea globalization has worked out so well for every country involved... I don't think it's occured to the leaders of all those nations that they give up alot of power over there own internal markets when they loose the ability to control it. Hitler was decades ahead on economic theory, he realized a free market is a threat to national security. It will probably take the USA another 50-100 years to realize the same thing, and even then politician don't like upsetting the status quo.
Re:It's up to Brazil by maple_shaft · 2011-09-30 14:05 · Score: 2

I suggest you read the book The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. It goes into detail about how globalization takes a tolerable socialist cesspool for the population and turns it into a horribly miserable crony capitalist cesspool for the starving and unemployed population. It goes into detail about how they claim the investment and jobs will create wealth and rise the nation out of poverty, however they open the doors for foreign competition, infrastructure is built to the sole benefit of the foreign corporations, subsidies are forced to be removed for local industries making them unable to compete and laying off huge swaths of the workforce, and then corporations hire some of them back for pennies on the dollar while paying little taxes. It is not like this is a big secret though that people are just figuring out. It is just that the people who know this are powerless to stop it from happening. Governments that are non-compliant with free market reforms are generally punished on the currency exchange by large investors and they are not subject to international aid and loans from the IMF and World Bank. Governments quickly become insolvent and buckle at the international pressure to open borders and then that is how it all happens in a nutshell. I highly suggest picking up the book, you will look at the world in a much different light.
Re:It's up to Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:06 · Score: 0

Our government is already doing a pretty good job at depressing and demoralizing the population. Skyhigh taxes, widespread corruption, crappy public health and education, shitty infrastructure everywhere and plenty of mismanagement and endless bureaucracy are what this government is known for. They don't need Foxconn if the goal is making people's lives miserable. Also, they probably don't see a good enough benefit in losing all the absurdly high imports taxes they're collecting on iDevices.
Re:It's up to Brazil by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 16:54 · Score: 0

How would a nation go insolvent if it had closed borders? Who is it owing money to??
Re:It's up to Brazil by mikael · 2011-10-01 03:15 · Score: 1

Countries are no longer allowed to maintain their own money supply. They can't just print money as the economy grows and needs it. Instead their central banks have to borrow it from international banks like the BIS (Bank of International Settlements) and loan that out to high-street banks. Then they pay interest back to the central bank from the growth of the economy.
If they don't buy into this program, they don't get international investment money or trade.

--
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads

Insane by mrmeval · 2011-09-30 11:57 · Score: 0

Until corruption is fixed, the customs situation is positively addressed, protectionist tariffs and damn near ruinous taxation are removed Brazil needs to smolder in it's on shit for a couple of decades longer.

--
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty

Re:Insane by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:05 · Score: -1

"It's" means "it is", you should use "its" instead. Also, "on" should be "own" and "shit" is quite vulgar, you should be ashamed of yourself for using such a word.
Re:Insane by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:18 · Score: 0

The "customs situation ..., protectionist tariffs and damn near ruinous taxation" are probably the only reason Foxconn considered building machines there to begin with.

Re:smolder by TaoPhoenix · 2011-09-30 12:00 · Score: 0

Nah, Give them 7 years and they'll fix it.

Brazil is the Ultimate Dark Horse.

Buy in now!

--
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine

From one hellhole to another. by sethstorm · 2011-09-30 12:05 · Score: 2

Why should the company have all the fun?

How about targeting incentives for the potential workers (that is, you target the people that would work there) instead of letting Foxconn make another hellhole?

--
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.

Re:From one hellhole to another. by TheLink · 2011-09-30 20:01 · Score: 1

In some countries there are tax incentives for the workers:
http://mystarjob.com/articles/story.aspx?file=/2010/10/29/mystarjob_news/20101029162452&sec=mystarjob_news
This one is only for foreigners, but that's often the same for tax breaks for companies.
--
- Too many replies beneath your current threshold

What's New? by RobinEggs · 2011-09-30 12:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is the oldest story in the multinationalist's book.

It happens with every industry. If it's not physically restricted to a particular chunk of land like mining or timber, corporations will shop jurisdictions, wringing tax and legal concessions out of every potential home. It's why banks incorporate in Delaware who don't even have branches or clients there, why Microsoft does a suspiciously large amount of business in Ireland, etc.

By the time they're done shopping their future home has agreed that they'll be exempt from environmental laws or that they'll never pay taxes if they'll please just give a few thousand people a job. It's just another problem with the kind of pathetic regulation that allows a corporation to declare their profit in one nation, their liabilities in another, their employees in a third, etc. to the effect that they're no longer just people (which is bad enough) but highly privileged citizens of a dozen countries at once. Yet with so few of those pesky liabilities other citizens must endure.

I know slashdot has a large contingent of social darwinists and let-it-all-burn libertarians and I'll get modded down for this, but I have to say that I'm sure Marx is laughing in his grave watching us fulfill his nightmares.

Re:What's New? by Moridineas · 2011-09-30 12:16 · Score: 2

Hardly anybody denies that Marx was an absolutely brilliant analysts. I've even heard a Cato speaker say just that--that Marx very accurately pinpointed a lot of the problems with the economies of his day (some aspects of which remain today).
What I think you're really getting at, is that Marx wrote about what we might today call "social dumping." That is, like water, production flows around the globe to the point of least resistance. India has cheaper lumber than the US, global production of lumber will be centered in India. The US makes the best and cheapest pianos--global production of pianos will be centered in the US (as it was in the first half of the 20th century, until it flowed away). Contrary to what you say, the one catch is really not natural resources, but labor.
This has been cited as one of the problems with the modern EU--social dumping. In some of the countries with strong social welfare and strong labor unions (and high standards of living for all citizens), many industries have been taken over by cheap migrant labor, often from Eastern Europe. This is a problem for welfare states!
I think it was Milton Friedman who said something along the lines of "You can have open borders or you can have a strong welfare state--but not both."
The disagreements re: Marx show up when it comes to solutions. Countries (or states) will always vie to attract businesses. And why shouldn't they?
Re:What's New? by flaming+error · 2011-09-30 12:40 · Score: 1

> why shouldn't they?
Because "countries (or states)" muck everything up when they meddle in the economy. Brazil is historically no exception.
Why should a chinese sweat shop get to play by looser rules than a native-born small business? How will the native industry ever be able to compete if their own government creates artificial disadvantages for them?
Re:What's New? by dolmant_php · 2011-09-30 12:40 · Score: 2

While you make some accurate points, and I'm aware of the morale and other Foxconn issues, I don't think they qualify for this story about moving to Brazil. The complaints by Foxconn about Brazil are well founded. It is highly corrupt, and the taxes are abnormally high. Their workforce is indeed unskilled: a large portion of their population can read (that is, can pronounce the words), but is not able to understand what they are reading. The infrastructure (power, water, television) is paid for by the rich, and literally stolen by the bandits and given away or sold for very little to large populations. Moving a high tech manufacturing plant to Brazil without addressing these issues is an actual concern that makes sense, regardless of the company that is thinking about moving there.
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:57 · Score: 0

Then why consider Brazil in the first place?
Re:What's New? by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-09-30 13:51 · Score: 1

Because "countries (or states)" muck everything up when they meddle in the economy. Brazil is historically no exception.
By that argument, they should just open the borders to anyone and everyone. In which case you'll likely see their home industry almost entirely owned by foreign corporations in a few decades at most.
Re:What's New? by Moridineas · 2011-09-30 14:46 · Score: 1

That's somewhat silly. Inviting in foreign companies -- and then copying them -- is exactly how China got where they are today.
Countries "meddle" in the economy when the impose taxes, regulations, change interest rates, regulate trade, regulate immigration, etc. Obviously not all of that is bad! Who is talking about sweat shops playing by looser rules?
I lean strongly to the libertarian, but your viewpoint is much harsher than mine!
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:17 · Score: 0

That's pretty much what we get here in Brazil already. Telecommunications, food production, supermarkets, restaurants, transportation, banking, mining and pretty much every industry here is actually owned mostly by foreign corporations and individuals. Our oil industry is currently one of the few exceptions, but only because the government insists in keeping control over it.
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:36 · Score: 0

You left out the part where, while getting exemption from environmental laws and preferential tax treatment they then start complaining about "over-regulation". The corporate press and most Republicans will then start echoing and amplifying this until the masses start to believe it. Then the "job creators" get rid of even more jobs.
Re:What's New? by ShakaUVM · 2011-09-30 15:38 · Score: 1

Sometimes government regulations are a good thing, and sometimes they're a bad thing. I'm not a libertarian purist that thinks all regulation is evil - I think there simply needs to be a balance struck at the right point. I don't think it's unreasonable to require smoke detectors in homes (the total cost of smoke detectors is a tiny fraction of the cost of a house), but I would be opposed to mandating sprinkler systems in detached homes. Balance, common sense, all that.
I've seen regulations put the companies of two of my friends entirely out of business - one was due to a conflict between state and federal laws that made it impossible for his company to pass a safety inspection with both the FDA and the state regulatory board. If they'd been a larger corporation, they could have closed up shop here in California and moved to a more business friendly state. They were a drug manufacturing company that was the only source for several rare chemo drugs that are used as drugs-of-last-resort for people dying of cancer and have run out of alternatives, so the regulation not only put him and their 70 employees out of business, but also fucked over cancer patients across the country.
You can't pretend regulations always protect the little guy - I just hope you never get certain types of rare cancers that now have no drug manufacturers for them.
So the competition does apply pressure on governments to not overregulate. Though those benefits are more reaped by the large corporations instead of the small, if a state passes more business friendly laws, then the smaller corps benefit, too.
That said, I think something really ought to be done about Hollywood Accounting and all those tricks that multinationals play to avoid paying taxes. Google's Double Irish, and the like.
Re:What's New? by Rayonic · 2011-09-30 16:04 · Score: 1

By the time they're done shopping their future home has agreed that they'll be exempt from environmental laws or that they'll never pay taxes if they'll please just give a few thousand people a job.
Perhaps a few thousand jobs are worth more than whatever corporate taxes they would have collected? I don't know Marx's stance on jobs, but I've heard they're beneficial to an economy.

Plus, some countries even tax the income from jobs. Strange but true!

--
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Re:What's New? by aliquis · 2011-09-30 16:22 · Score: 1

Well, if you want a skilled workforce, working infrastructure, no corruption, people who can read and so on you're free to move to the civilized world.
I've for instance read how people complain on taxes and try to suggest how bad and hard it is to be a company here in Sweden. But then on the other hand you can expect all those things. Lots of things which may not work that well in other countries will work here.
Re:What's New? by flaming+error · 2011-09-30 17:25 · Score: 1

impose taxes, regulations, change interest rates, regulate trade, regulate immigration...
I lean strongly to the libertarian,
I think none of those activities are especially popular among libertarians. Some may be ok with tariffs, some may like immigration regulated. Virtually none of them want trade regulated, none of them want government dictating interest rates.

Who is talking about sweat shops playing by looser rules?
The article talks about negotiations breaking down over taxes and regulations. If they weren't getting special treatment, they'd get no better tax deal and no better rules than the computer shop down the street.
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 17:31 · Score: 0

If the Soviet Union and Mao's China show one thing it's that Marxists don't care about workers, they care about Marxists. As long as the army is fed during the famine, who really gives a fuck about the peasants.
Re:What's New? by Moridineas · 2011-09-30 18:04 · Score: 1

I think none of those activities are especially popular among libertarians. Some may be ok with tariffs, some may like immigration regulated. Virtually none of them want trade regulated, none of them want government dictating interest rates.
Absolutely correct, none of those things are POPULAR amongst libertarians, but it's an extremely rare libertarian who would--for instance--say "no taxes, on anything, at all." It's a very rare libertarian who would say "no regulations, on anything, at all." There are many libertarians who don't believe in open-borders.
But really, you're just avoiding the criticism I made of your posts. Governments perform myriad actions that affect the economy both directly and indirectly. It's frankly silly to say that governments should never meddle with the economy, because that's basically what governments are made to do! Even if you're a "roads and military" (or just roads!) libertarian, guess what, building roads meddles with the economy. So, unless you're an anarcho-capitalist, your post is just kind of ... bizarre!

The article talks about negotiations breaking down over taxes and regulations. If they weren't getting special treatment, they'd get no better tax deal and no better rules than the computer shop down the street.
Is this true? TFA doesn't even contain the world "regulation." Do you have a different citation? Just curious what "looser rules" you're talking about since the article doesn't seem to mention that.
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 01:22 · Score: 0

Anyway, there's no such a thing as a libertarian in Brazil. All we have is socialists or social-democ-rats.
Re:What's New? by khallow · 2011-10-01 01:33 · Score: 1

What I think you're really getting at, is that Marx wrote about what we might today call "social dumping."

The economists call it "comparative advantage".
Re:What's New? by khallow · 2011-10-01 01:45 · Score: 1

I know slashdot has a large contingent of social darwinists and let-it-all-burn libertarians and I'll get modded down for this, but I have to say that I'm sure Marx is laughing in his grave watching us fulfill his nightmares.
And so what? Marx was a loon. The thing you don't get is that this a natural and healthy limit on government. If governments could compel multinational organizations in the ways you desire, then they'd be able to do far worse to their own citizens, who don't have the resources of a multinational organization.

I consider the current global situation where power is diffuse and spread not just through more than a hundred sovereign countries, but also thousands of multinational entities, to be pretty healthy compared to what it could be. The more concentrated and centralized that power becomes, the worse off everyone else will be.
Re:What's New? by tequila_j · 2011-10-01 03:47 · Score: 1

Their workforce is indeed unskilled: a large portion of their population can read (that is, can pronounce the words), but is not able to understand what they are reading
. This is not true for every region of the country. Some regions have problems (mostly North), some not (mostly South). Foxconn is/was going to the last.

The infrastructure (power, water, television) is paid for by the rich, and literally stolen by the bandits and given away or sold for very little to large populations.
Bullshit.
Re:What's New? by marcosdumay · 2011-10-01 04:20 · Score: 1

That is not a bad proposition. Open all the doors and let foreigners compete with brazilians on equal stands. The only problem is that the foreigners wouldn't allow that. They can't lose their competitivity.

--
Rethinking email
Re:What's New? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 04:30 · Score: 0

Why should a chinese sweat shop get to play by looser rules than a native-born small business? How will the native industry ever be able to compete if their own government creates artificial disadvantages for them?
In the US anyway, I keep waiting for a group of local companies to file a class-action lawsuit against the local government when this happens. It's so unfair that they have to bear the tax burden for the benefit of a few large companies.
I guess there must be some law I'm not aware of that prevents this.
Re:What's New? by flaming+error · 2011-10-01 04:45 · Score: 1

> you're just avoiding the criticism I made of your posts.
Sorry. Not sure which point I failed to address. In general I'm interested in new ideas, facts, and understandings, but I tend to ignore strangers' opinions of my character, intelligence, or blog posts.
> building roads meddles with the economy
I don't think "meddle with" means "affect" or "touch." I was referring to government actions that attempt to control the economy or favor special interests. Building roads and infrastructure is a healthy and proper facilitation of the economy. But government giving selective access to that infrastructure I would consider meddling.
> Just curious what "looser rules" you're talking about
Perhaps you'll forgive me for paraphrasing. The point I was making was about preferential treatment.

'(Foxconn) is making crazy demands' for tax breaks and other special treatment, the official added. Local media have reported that Foxconn is also seeking priority treatment at Brazilian customs
Re:What's New? by marcosdumay · 2011-10-01 05:04 · Score: 1

You say both of those:

"I don't think it's unreasonable to require smoke detectors in homes (the total cost of smoke detectors is a tiny fraction of the cost of a house)"

"I've seen regulations put the companies of two of my friends entirely out of business - one was due to a conflict between state and federal laws that made it impossible for his company to pass a safety inspection with both the FDA and the state regulatory board."

Yet, you fail to notice that the most reasonable piece of regulation (like your first example) can turn into a monster if the circunstances aren't exactly right. I'm not against gevernment regulation either, but price isn't the only thing you must look. Legibility, tranparency, simplicity and lawer proofness (lawers can make use of most regulations to get completely different things than the legislators tought they'd get) are vital, and I'm yet to see a government body that cares about such things.

"So the competition does apply pressure on governments to not overregulate."

You should thank God that you don't live in a hightly corrupt society. Here at Brazil once the government puts its nose into some economic activity the big players all pressure for more regulations (that apply to small players) and simply bribe their way out of the mess (or just don't comply with the regulations and get lawers to reduce the damage).

--
Rethinking email
Re:What's New? by marcosdumay · 2011-10-01 05:09 · Score: 1

Yeah, people are simply unable to work by themselves. They must pay taxes, so that the government gives the money to big corporations to invest and command those taxpayers to work. Really, if we didn't just give our money to big corporations, they wouldn't command us to work, and we'd simply have no salary at all.

--
Rethinking email
Re:What's New? by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 15:04 · Score: 1

We don't have socialists anymore. Worker's Party (PT - Partido dos Trabalhadores) used to flirt with socialism, but now they just got convinced that the right wing was right (no pun intended).
Every party here is the same these days. All are friends and benefit from their schemes together.
Re:What's New? by Moridineas · 2011-10-02 15:25 · Score: 1

Sorry. Not sure which point I failed to address. In general I'm interested in new ideas, facts, and understandings, but I tend to ignore strangers' opinions of my character, intelligence, or blog posts.
Ok, except I didn't say anything at all about your "character, intelligence, or blog posts." (unelss you're calling a post on slashdot a blog post). I just replied to what you posted. Why post if you don't want to discuss a topic? I don't get it.

I don't think "meddle with" means "affect" or "touch." I was referring to government actions that attempt to control the economy or favor special interests. Building roads and infrastructure is a healthy and proper facilitation of the economy. But government giving selective access to that infrastructure I would consider meddling.
Again, the very definition of government. Government controls access to all of the infrastructure it creates. Governments, for instance, control access to roads. If governments levy taxes, they're acting proper, if they relieve taxes, they're meddling? What's the distinction?

Perhaps you'll forgive me for paraphrasing. The point I was making was about preferential treatment.
Yeah, but you claimed something very different from what the article claimed. You've since clarified that you basically made up the claim that a Taiwanese (I think you also don't realize that Foxconn is Taiwanese company) is both a sweatshop and that it would "play by looser rules"--which you explained meant "regulations."

You must be on the take. by sethstorm · 2011-09-30 12:08 · Score: 1

Given how much corruption exists, there really isn't a legitimate way for it not to be bad over there.

--
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.

Re:You must be on the take. by shutdown+-p+now · 2011-09-30 13:45 · Score: 1

"Bad" is relative. My own country sucks compared to US or Canada (from personal experience), but much better than China, and I'd imagine rather comparable to Brasil.
Re:You must be on the take. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2011-09-30 20:09 · Score: 1

In China they appear to have at least made the decision to try to do something useful with themselves. China is run by engineers, the US is run by lawyers, and Brazil is run by nincompoops.
Brazil punishes its own citizens by forcing them to pay something like 20% import duties on technological items, all while apparently considering it no big deal if everyone runs their own backyard mercury smelter, going by comments above.
Never mind tax breaks, they should be offering Foxconn free hookers and blow if that's what it takes to get them to come in and modernize their economy. Ultimately it is their own people who pay the price for their government's insane policies, not Foxconn.
Re:You must be on the take. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 00:57 · Score: 0

20% no. It's 60% plus others like sales tax.
Re:You must be on the take. by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 14:46 · Score: 1

Brazil is run by nincompoops.
I think you haven't watched Michael Moore's documentaries lately, eh?
The US has been run by -- whatever it means -- "nincompoops" for a long time. They make money off of mortgage debts and all kinds of wild and borderline-out-of-law investments. The ex-president friends -- like Dick Chenney, Condolezza Rice and some other well known oil mercenaries -- make money from wars in countries that have nothing to do with the so-called "terrorist menace".
Trillions of dollars went to the bankers pockets and a good part of the nation is now homeless.
Nicely run country, eh?
Re:You must be on the take. by Man+On+Pink+Corner · 2011-10-01 23:41 · Score: 1

I've concluded that there are different kinds of nincompoops, though. Our politicians in the US are corrupt, greedy short-term thinkers who will sell their own mothers if approached by a lobbyist with a check. But they usually don't go out of their way to punish their constituents and make it impossible for anyone else to succeed
See the other reply to my post, where someone corrects the tariff percentage I mentioned. Apparently it's more like 60% than 20%. So: sorry, but your relativism (and Moore's), while not wrong per se, only goes so far. The simple truth is that nothing in the US is that fucked up. At least not yet.
Re:You must be on the take. by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-03 08:35 · Score: 1

Then, I conclude we have different opinions on the matter and we'll never ever reach an agreement.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter how politicians cause harm to the population -- the population is harmed anyway.
So, if the US or Brazil is more or less fucked up than each other is a matter of opinion.
I know a lot of people that live in the US and think it's great. I know people that went to the US and started businesses over there and are doing well. I also know a lot of people that have a nice life here in Brazil, myself included.
My point is: it could be better, but it's not nearly as bad as some brazilians commented here.
To sum it up: it's hard to find an american criticizing the US to foreigners. Americans tend to work for the benefit of the nation. OTOH, it's pretty easy to find a brazilian criticizing Brazil and not even trying to fix it. That's where Brazil is totally fucked up.

Crazy Foxconn, not crazy governments. by sethstorm · 2011-09-30 12:12 · Score: 2

Fix the corruption, keep the tariffs, and keep the taxes from being passed down to regular people over there.

Giving in to a company that wants to export Chinese thuggery isn't going to improve things.

--
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.

Re:Crazy Foxconn, not crazy governments. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 18:26 · Score: 0

Fix the corruption, keep the tariffs, and keep the taxes from being passed down to regular people over there.
Aren't tariffs and corporate taxes passed down anyway? When a company gets taxed do you think the CEO writes a check from his own personal bank account? Prices are raised and/or employee wages lowered. I'd argue that corporate taxes are regressive instead of progressive. As for tariffs, another posted says that computers cost twice as much in Brazil as they do in the U.S.. Sounds like those costs are passed down too.
Re:Crazy Foxconn, not crazy governments. by Grishnakh · 2011-10-01 14:03 · Score: 1

Yep, tariffs only end up hurting your own people, unless you have industries inside your country that you're trying to protect from cheaper foreign competition. They're really quite stupid, and just end up being another tax on your own citizens and hampering the economy.
They can be good, though, if you have an important domestic industry that would be put out of business otherwise, because that industry employs citizens, and also helps keep your country self-sufficient in some way. So, for instance, if your country grows melons, that industry can employ a lot of people, and cheaper foreign melons would be a threat to that industry, so a tariff keeps the unfair competition away.
But if you don't have a domestic industry to protect, it's just stupid. How many computers does Brazil build? Zero? A tariff on computers there just increases their prices there, hampering the local economy. If they want to build their own computer industry, that's fine, but just putting up a tariff isn't going to magically make a new industry appear, especially a high-tech industry that the local workforce isn't ready or able to start up.

BRAZIL by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:14 · Score: 1

Brazil is totally screwed for any high tech company. I work for a fortune 500 trying to expand into Brazil, one of our biggest problems has been finding enough skilled labor. We have actually started sniping good people from our vendors and decided to train them up

On top of that their customs sucks big time. We have had some things take weeks to get through customs. I am of the opinion that we shouldn't expand down there, but we are.

Overall, Brazil is more expensive to operate in than the US. Heck we can't maintain the standards of work and or product we have set in the US and other parts of the world (including other third world countries.) Then we can't find products that roughly match our requirements, so we have to import and pay the 50% tariff on them. It is way cheaper for us to do things in other countries

Really the Brazilian government is screwing their people over. If they were to get rid of that tariff and streamline their customs, more foreign companies would invest in brazil and it (Brazil) would come out of it's third world country feel. Oh, and they also need to clamp down on the corruption.

Then use the US's DoD for good and handle them. by sethstorm · 2011-09-30 12:23 · Score: 1

The US has the ability to enforce near-infinite jurisdiction, try using it on multinationals for once. If the multinational's efforts at arbitrage are thwarted at every step, including lobbying efforts, they will find themselves having to reconsider their actions.

It would be amusing to see a multinational try to make an argument on humanity because all the folks in their business continuity plan are all in Guantanamo Bay or some black site. Doubly so if the people that sent work offshore were in a prison that was next to their factory or call center.

--
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.

Re:Then use the US's DoD for good and handle them. by khallow · 2011-09-30 14:28 · Score: 2

The US has the ability to enforce near-infinite jurisdiction, try using it on multinationals for once.
First, a counter question, why isn't the US already doing that? The answer to that question explains why your entire post is utterly futile.
Re:Then use the US's DoD for good and handle them. by jonbryce · 2011-09-30 22:15 · Score: 1

Only on American multinationals, which is probably one of the reasons why the likes of Seagate has moved its corporate domicile to Ireland.

Brazil? No Way. by Vinegar+Joe · 2011-09-30 12:30 · Score: 1

Panama or Costa Rica would be much better.

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"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes

Re:Brazil? No Way. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:02 · Score: 0

Brazilian rum is much better. Pay me in Ypioca Cachaça and I'll build you all the iPads you can sell.
Of course, they might only be useful as an Amazon Fire, but I'd be happy.
Re:Brazil? No Way. by drinkypoo · 2011-09-30 23:26 · Score: 1

All the uplands in Panama are heavily volcanic and you must assume they will be again, especially in this period of increased volcanism. One of the nicest towns is called Caldera, and for good reason. All the uplands in Costa Rica are either mushy, inaccessible, inhabited by some of the few remaining natives, or all three. Both are very crappy places to build something requiring massive infrastructure. The lowlands of Panama are known for fire and flood. Costa Rica, mostly just flood, because they are significantly more ecologically sensitive.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Um, duh by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:40 · Score: 0

Clearly they need to get in touch with Elon Musk and start building these things in orbit. Right? Because it makes soooo much sense, right?

scientific output by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 12:50 · Score: 0

China's scientific output already surpassed UK's. It won't be long before Foxconn will open a factory in the US.

Here's a crazy idea for you... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:06 · Score: 0

How about use some of that bailout money to move that plant down to South Carolina, give Foxconn all tax breaks they want and actually employ few AMERICANS.

Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by Vinegar+Joe · 2011-09-30 13:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

Maybe because the SC state government is about as fucked up as the one in Brazil and can't be trusted to honor the agreements they've signed? Like the one with Amazon?
Not to mention our 3rd world education system. The football coach at my son's high school makes twice what the teachers make. Five of the kids in my son's homeroom can't sign their own names. Some of that good Brazilian run would be nice right about now.

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"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 13:33 · Score: 0

Dont like SC? Pick any of the other 49 states...
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by zr · 2011-09-30 13:34 · Score: 1

Oh and you're not suggesting Foxconn is in Brazil for their stellar education, are you?
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by ArchieBunker · 2011-09-30 15:10 · Score: 1

Are you kidding? An ipad would probably cost $10,000 if it were made in the US.

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Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by Alex+Belits · 2011-09-30 19:48 · Score: 1

Then they will REALLY have a reason to complain about lack of skilled workers and corruption.

--
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by TheLink · 2011-09-30 20:07 · Score: 1

Many "Japanese" cars are made in the USA: http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0611
They are still reasonably affordable.
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- Too many replies beneath your current threshold
Re:Here's a crazy idea for you... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 20:12 · Score: 0

Not to mention our 3rd world education system.
I wasn't aware it was common in the third world to have quality education for free.
Although it's a fact that school level education in Brazil is inadequate, the same can't be said for universities. Our best universities are public, and 100% free. There are very few other countries in the world where getting a phd is that cheap.
The major problem with Brazil is the population who won't stop complaining about every little thing.

a lack of skilled labor by Osgeld · 2011-09-30 14:41 · Score: 1

you don't need skilled labor, the Chinese proved that, all you need is a few thousand people willing to kill themselves for a shit job, and the ability to follow instructions

Bad engineers... or bad salaries? by daodao · 2011-09-30 14:42 · Score: 1

Brazil does produce, even if not in sufficient numbers, very good engineers, some of which are exported to developed countries. As far as "lack of skilled labor", one has to wonder if the salaries being offered by the Chinese company are on a par with those in the Brazilian job market. Perhaps it's not the lack of good Brazilian engineers, but good Brazilian engineers willing to receive Chinese salaries.

Re:Bad engineers... or bad salaries? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 14:56 · Score: 0

Have you seen how ridiculously high salaries are in Brazil? The salary for a competent Brazilian engineer will match that of a similar engineer in most European countries once you factor in the tax.
The only reason to do R&D in Brazil is if you're working on something that absolutely depends on being in loco. Otherwise, you're better off hiring people elsewhere, and it doesn't even have to be in China or India.
Re:Bad engineers... or bad salaries? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:23 · Score: 0

Why would you work for the chinese? They're insulting, they think you're their slaves, they will do all sort of stuff that are _criminal offenses_ in Brazil, such as humiliating people in public, and treat the women as if they're shit. And they not only want to pay subpar salaries, they also try to force you to work insane shifts _without even the extra payment required for overhours by law_. Also, you have to tolerate "import" chinese bosses that are actually extremely incompetent, and were dumped here because someone wanted to get rid of them back there in China, but they had enough imporant friends in the party for that to be a bad idea.
THAT is why they can't find skilled labor in Brazil. We'd rather work for someone else.
Re:Bad engineers... or bad salaries? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 13:33 · Score: 0

Lack of skilled labor? You got a point...
I am a brazillian engineer working on european satellites projects. As soon as someone there pays me 80% of what I earn in the old world, I'll fly back to Brazil
Oh Foxconn wanted to pay only 30% what a pity!

big surprise by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:05 · Score: 0

Brazil is a terrible country to have skilled tech labor. Whoever's idea this was is clueless about Brazil's people and culture. China blows them away, in part because only asians can endure and put up with the inhumane treatment of skilled laborer. Asians typically are very fast, hard working, and intelligent. Unless they are going to import these people into brazil I don't see how this will work, even if they get all the tax breaks in the world.

Raid your hand if you saw this one coming ... by morcego · 2011-09-30 15:24 · Score: 1

I called this shot 4 days ago, here on Slashdot ...

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2446794&cid=37517716

Seriously, did anyone really believe this ? Look at the source. These guys (Mercadante et al) are 10x worse than your usual politician.

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morcego

Re:Raid your hand if you saw this one coming ... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 15:33 · Score: 0

#classemediasofre
Re:Raid your hand if you saw this one coming ... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 09:36 · Score: 0

Only a fool would believe in a politician from PT...
Re:Raid your hand if you saw this one coming ... by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 15:12 · Score: 1

"Only a fool would believe a politician..."
There. Fixed it for you...
Now, specifically about brazilian politicians, I don't think you can trust PT any less that you can trust any other party.

Crazy demands, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 17:09 · Score: 0

'(Foxconn) is making crazy demands' for tax breaks and other special treatment, the official added

No, Foxconn is asking for exemption from Brazil's fucking crazy taxes on any imported computers. Brazilians pay double what Americans do for a Mac, and those brain-dead protectionist tariffs apply to any factory equipment, too. Brazil could be an industrial giant to rival Japan or Korea, if they gave up these stupid Marxist ideas about "promoting local industry" by raising trade barriers.

That's something we don't lack... by Stormwatch · 2011-09-30 17:10 · Score: 4, Funny

Brazil's own deep structural problems such as a lack of skilled labor and bad infrastructure

I assure you, bad infrastructure is something we don't lack.

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Circumcision is child abuse.

Re:That's something we don't lack... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 02:45 · Score: 0

In English you have to already know what a sentence is saying in order to parse it correctly. In this case the correct parsing tree is: Brazil's own deep structural problems such as (a lack of skilled labor) and (bad infrastructure).
Re:That's something we don't lack... by Stormwatch · 2011-10-01 09:28 · Score: 1

Whoosh.

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Circumcision is child abuse.

Brazil, things will only get better by GalacticOvergrow · 2011-09-30 17:24 · Score: 1

I'm an American that is moving to Brazil for the opportunities. The are in desperate need of skill people. While most of the country is still very much blighted there are many bright spots, but the brightest spot to me is the people. I have been all over the world and have never met a people that are as friendly and welcoming as a Basilero. Before I first went there all i heard was how it was such a dump with much violent crime. In the 2 Years that i have been there I have seen a huge amount of renovation and no violent crime and I live in Novo Mundo, Sao Paulo. The biggest problem I had was speaking the language as not very many people speak english. From what I have seen there I think this Foxconn deal was premature, their infrastructure just cannot handle a Tech company that large. Maybe in 5 more years.

Re:Brazil, things will only get better by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-01 07:39 · Score: 0

You are just in it for the chicks.

The good, the bad, the pretty and the ugly... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-09-30 21:02 · Score: 0

So, Brazil is a huge country. No really, look it up again on the map.
For those questioning tech and education in Brazil - it works for a few (look at PUC RIO and 'Lua' the programming language, which had it's origins at Tecgraf, etc.), but yes there are a large percentage of the population with a basic working education that would shame even other third-world countries.

The words you have to learn the hard way to do business in Brazil: "Ladrao, propina; jetto; jetinho; caixinha; graxa; troco; nota; acerto"- it is a very corrupt place, at all levels of local and national Government. In the northern state of Bahia, in Feira de Santana, their local town hall has put in place plastic screens in their town halls, so when the local councillors have their public meetings, the locals can no longer throw their coins at them with the usual chants of "you are corrupt, here is so more money for you greedy politicos..".

This is a just a bargaining chip by Foxconn -- they know the have to play hardball with the Brazilians to get a low as possible set of rates and agreements defined now, because once they move in and start production you can guarantee every local politician, policeman, federal employee will be looking for ways to draw out little bits of cash from Foxconn via newly defined tariffs, laws, outright bribes, and other less satisfactory ways.

If Foxconn pays what is asked, it can do what it wants. They want a large part of the forest cut down? Done. Kick those people out of their homes to build the new plant? Done. Consume 80% of the local power in a zone that already has regular blackouts and will potentially now experience more? Done.

Brazilians would sell their own grandmother for a dollar. (then steal her back later to sell again...)

Re:The good, the bad, the pretty and the ugly... by That's+What+She+Said · 2011-10-01 15:17 · Score: 1

Brazilians would sell their own grandmother for a dollar.
Wait... These are the jews!

(then steal her back later to sell again...)
No, wait again... These are the turkish!

Question: by Nyder · 2011-10-02 10:06 · Score: 1

Will Brazil's workers commit suicide, or kill their employers?

Can't wait to find out. Hopefully the latter because the former is just a waste.

Protip: When you do kill your employers, record it and share it on the internet.

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Be seeing you...

Meanwhile... Xboxes will be produced there... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-03 05:42 · Score: 0

http://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/2011/09/28/microsoft-to-produce-xbox-360-consoles-in-brazil/

Outdated labor laws by acid06 · 2011-10-09 15:50 · Score: 1

Brazil has very employee-protective labor laws which make in impractical for a company such as Foxconn to work here, so they requested labor laws reforms from the government. Conceding in the labor laws area would be a very bad scar in the image of the current (theoretically center-left) Labour Party, so the deal didn't go through.

Brazil has no shortage of skilled labor. We do lack decent transportation infrastructure (only options are usually air or road, no train or water transportation). Also, our customs are very outdated, with absurd tariffs (which are also supported by the current government).

As a Brazilian, it was possible the deal was bound to never go through from day one.

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Foxconn's Brazil Plan Stalled

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